Saskatchewan election Nov 2 2020

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Misfit Misfit's picture

BC is a beautiful province. Saskatchewan is beautiful as well. 

Misfit Misfit's picture

And furthermore, people don't have to have previous ties to Saskatchewan to move to Saskatchewan. They don't have to have family that they want to be closer to. People move to Saskatchewan for many different reasons.
 

And yes, people with no previous ties to Saskatchewan can and do sell their property at top dollar on the BC coast and move to Saskatchewan because real estate prices are cheaper and the cost of living is more affordable. That isn't rocket science.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Btw, it took me six weeks to recover from the 2016 US election results and I'm not even an American. I think I need to settle down a little. 
 

Krop and Jerry, I do plan on getting my sense of humour back...just not today and so close after an election.

i'll try to be nicer. Honest. Just not today.

Ken Burch

Misfit wrote:

Btw, it took me six weeks to recover from the 2016 US election results and I'm not even an American. I think I need to settle down a little. 
 

Krop and Jerry, I do plan on getting my sense of humour back...just not today and so close after an election.

i'll try to be nicer. Honest. Just not today.

I think we've all been there, Misfit.  Bad results like that are a wound.  It's easy to take things you'd take as a harmless joke at any other time as cheap shots, as getting kicked when down, at a time like this.

kropotkin1951

Misfit wrote:

When they could sell their house for one million and buy the equivalent in Saskatchewan for $120/250,000.00. Of course they did. The population in Saskatoon was 200,000 thirty years ago. Now it's 260,000. Regina has had a boom too but not quite like Saskatoon. Retired people selling high in BC and moving to Saskatchewan where it's cheaper to live. When real estate collapsed in the States, you could buy a cheap condo in Arizona and a house in Saskatchewan and winter in the States. Many did.

Your anecdotal evidence is not born out in the stats.

Despite some 16,000 Canadians making the move to the land of the living skies, the province lost nearly 24,000 residents last year, leading to its worst net loss in over a decade.

Since 2009 the number of Canadians moving to Saskatchewan has been in decline, and for the last five years it has resulted in a net loss for the province.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4258201/exodus-of-saskatchewan-residents-to-a...

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

I am talking about a twenty year period. The sp has been in power for 13 years so the real estate issue would have been strongest twenty years ago. Whether it is in decline or not the trend is/was real. So now, real estate has been driven up to where it is more in line with other provinces so the financial incentive to switch to Saskatchewan today for that reason is much much less than it was twenty years ago. 

kropotkin1951

Misfit wrote:

I am talking about a twenty year period. The sp has been in power for 13 years so the real estate issue would have been strongest twenty years ago. Whether it is in decline or not the trend is/was real. So now, real estate has been driven up to where it is more in line with other provinces so the financial incentive to switch to Saskatchewan today for that reason is much much less than it was twenty years ago. 

The village I live in twenty years ago was the cheapest place in the Valley to buy a house. We all got together and bought a forest and now we have some of the highest housing prices, especially rentals. As our community becomes more desirable as a place to live it is being gentrified despite a concerted effort not to go down that path.

I loved the four years I lived in Saskatoon but I missed the coast.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Many young people who graduate from school generally do not want to stay in the province. The fun and exciting places that young people want to live at are not in our two main urban centres. Common fun places are Calgary, Edmonton, the B.C. coast, and to a lesser extent, Winnipeg and Toronto. We lose young people from both rural and urban centres. Older people who move back to Saskatchewan generally relocate to the cities. So our cities can continue to grow and our rural areas depopulate due to young people leaving. None of this is a new phenomenon. This has been going on for as long as white settlers have settled in this province.

Regina finds it hard to retain talented football players. Many make their start in Regina but then want to relocate to the larger centres where there is more fun for them and a larger limelight. Our youth are the very same.

Retired people no longer want the discoteques and the downhill ski slopes. They want a smaller urban centre where they are close to their medical specialists and closer to their children and grandchildren. And since many are on a fixed income they want to live where it is cheaper for them live. 
 

And if the rate of young people leaving is greater than the people moving to the cities, OBVIOUSLY you will get a net loss in the provincial population. The Saskatchewan Party and Brad Wall bragged about the population boom because they were the ones who made people want to come back to the province unlike the NDP who our youth wanted to flee from. Ryan Mieli even mentioned your quote about the reversing population trend during the election debate that the rate of people leaving is greater than the people moving back. However, people are still moving back to Saskatchewan from out of province including the coast.

Krop, your stats are useless and meaningless. You have not contradicted anything that I have said at any point. I don't  care if the population now is growing or shrinking. Our urban centres are ballooning and the urban demographics are shifting. That partially explains why the NDP is struggling to make gains in the cities.

Having claimed to live in Saskatoon at one time does not make you an expert on our provincial demographics. But this is what we discuss in the province all the time because this isn't a BC issue, it's a Saskatchewan issue. 
 

No, I don't think that you liked living in Saskatchewan, and I think that you have a  very negative attitude about this province. That is why you reacted and why your remarks were not, apparently, any joke or dry humour.
 

I grew up with a friend in a small town whose mother and sister moved to Nanaimo about forty five years ago. She divorced her husband and my friend was adopted but related to her father's side of the family and so stayed with her father. Her sister still lives on the island but her mother moved back to Saskatchewan when she was 65. My friend went to university in Saskatoon and got a job in Winnipeg. Her mother obviously didn't move to be close to her children and she was originally from Ontario but she moved back to the province anyways. 

People do move to places that you personally do not like and firmly believe are inferior locations for anyone to live for any reason. Get used to it.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Quote:
Most of the people came from the west which is both Alberta and BC. And yes, people did move from coastal BC back to Saskatchewan because of differences in property values.

I believe Misfit. Anecdotal evdience: One of my Mom's friends and her husband moved from Burnaby to Regina when they retired because they had to sell their house to finance their retirement. They chose to move to Regina, where housing prices were cheaper enough that they could buy another house and still have enough money left over to live a comfortable retirement.

Even without the anecdotal evidence, I'd still believe Misfit.

And people who would rather move to a cheaper housing market and buy a house, rather than stay in a more expensive housing market and rent, well they're much more likely to have right-wing politics.

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Misfit wrote:

BC is a beautiful province. Saskatchewan is beautiful as well. 

Having been to more parts of BC than parts where I haven't been, and also to several parts of Saskatchewan, I'll concur that both provinces are beautiful. As a born and bred British Columbian I'm partial to our oceans and mountains and trees here in BC, but that doesn't take away at all from the beauty of Saskatchewan.

Misfit Misfit's picture

In the early 90s my sister and I who lived in Ontario paid roughly $2,200 annually for car insurance. My parents had a huge four door sedan and paid $450.00 annually for car insurance. Utilities were cheaper. Twenty years ago, you could buy a nice modern home for $250,000.00 in Regina.

There should never have been any contention about any of this. Zero.

Ken Burch

Enough already about housing prices in SK.  

The real question is...is there any reason for the SNDP to even stay in existence if they've managed to lose vote share and gain no seats AGAIN?

If they made no recovery this year...will they ever recover?  Will they ever come remotely close to winning again?

If they do what the party pros want and move even further to the right, will it matter if they ever DO win-in many respects, it was worse than losing for Sask to have Romanow's policies as an alleged "NDP" government in the Nineties.

Why not just dissolve the SNDP and replace it with something else?  Something more grassroots, something that is not obsessed with "respectability" to the exclusion of all else?

Nothing is working for the SNDP.  It doesn't look as if anything ever will work for it again.

So why keep it going in its current form?

Misfit Misfit's picture

"Enough already about housing prices in SK"

Are you policing this board?

Ken!!! Ryan Mieli campaigned on the left and it didn't work. This is the result of a PERFECTLY EXECUTED campaign on the left. Ryan Mieli is left. Everything about him is left. He's the sweetest, nicest, most articulate person you could ever want from a leader on the left. He didn't even need pictures of him holding fluffy little kittens because everyone gets it just the way he is. 

As for austerity. You have mentioned this many times before how bad Roy Romanow was for the province. You have mentioned the supposed 55 hospital closures before and it seems pointless  discuss because it goes nowhere, but Roy Romanow DID NOT close down 55 hospitals. He amalgamated hospital beds into long term care facilities in order to deal with the aging population in the province and help to streamline healthcare spending. Just imagine how drastic and extreme a crisis like 55 actual hospital closures would create in a small province like Saskatchewan. The doctor's strike back in the 1960s would have paled in comparison to the mass hysteria that would have ensued if 55 hospitals actually closed. Remember, Saskatchewan is notoriously polarized. We gave you the infamous doctor's strike. The media cameras and reporters from all over North America and Europe would have descended upon Saskatchewan to capitalize on the chaos. I could see the bold headlines now: "Socialist Government Killing Citizens" and "Socialism's True Failings".

What really did happen though is that our province was in a serious financial crisis. Our province had a D- international bond rating and our provincial bonds were on the verge of receiving junk bond status. The Saskatchewan government was on the verge of declaring bankruptcy. The austerity measures that were put in place were not made by choice. 
 

There is left wing ideology. And there is provincial reality. It is very easy to be an armchair quarterback. The NDP Roy Romanow government took over a situation that very few governments have had to deal with in Canada and they did it by protecting most of their crowns and upholding their commitment to vital services. I commend them on their accomplishments. They handled the crisis very well.

And No, the Saskatchewan NDP does not need to disband, and bringing in a new left wing leader would likely accomplish little to nothing.

We are in the middle of a global pandemic. The economy is tanking everywhere and the United States is descending into a possible civil war. We could face a major global depression that is as extreme or worse than the 1930s. Saskatchewan was devastated the hardest of any province during the 1930s and people are scared. No one wanted to hear about innovative new government programs and increased social spending. They wanted to hear about fiscal responsibility.

Which brings me to my next issue. Saskatchewan NDP are fiscally responsible.  There is no other political organization anywhere who can compete with the NDP on their track record of fiscal responsibility. That could have been their selling point during the election. No one knows how that would have turned out had they used that approach. I personally think that would have been more effective this time around.

Misfit Misfit's picture

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/report-on-business/unyielding-fiscal-policies-are-romanows-greatest-legacy/article770096/

This is an article about Roy Romanow's austerity. The article mentions 52 hospitals and not 55 as I mentioned in the previous post.

Ken Burch

In this era, nobody but the rich put "balanced budgets" above all other concerns.  

This critique seems valid to me:

https://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/views-expressed/2020/10/saskatchewan-nd...

Misfit Misfit's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

In this era, nobody but the rich put "balanced budgets" above all other concerns.  

This critique seems valid to me:

https://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/views-expressed/2020/10/saskatchewan-nd...

It does seem valid and it doesn't. He posted an article in Rabble about a month ago that was filled with numerous inaccuracies. I rebutted that piece then.

It would have been political suicide to discuss energy like Harding claims. The Federal NDP and Rachael Knotley supported the carbon tax and that issue has poisoned the majority of people away from the NDP and led to the rise of Western separatism again. People HATE Justin Trudeau. They HATE the NDP for supporting Justin Trudeau and for propping up his minority government. These are very serious issues out here and that hatred definitely spilled off into this election. That is most likely why Ryan Mieli avoided the issue like the plague.

The Saskatchewan government IS slowly investing in renewable energy. My anger is that the government should be investing heavily in it with Sask Power revenues. However, Brad Wall set up all green energy projects to be privately funded only. Therefore the province is not receiving the revenues from the power generation. I consider this to be blatantly assenine. They are dismantling our crowns and sabotaging the future of our province. This was not discussed during the election and it should have been. Every time I see a wind generator I seethe with anger. Wind power is good and I welcome it but it needs to be done properly and that isn't happening.

The final Regina Walsh Acres votes haven't been tabulated yet. My suspicion is that had Sandra Morin represented the NDP, she may not have won either once the final mail-in votes are finally tabulated.

The Saskatchewan government wants to invest more heavily into potash mines. I am against this. Potash mines require large stores of water that the province does not realistically have in order to extract the resource from the ground. This creates an unnecessary environmental catastrophe that hasn't been properly addressed. The government plans to invest in an irrigation agricultural project that will cost 4 billion dollars to build. The environmental devastation will be environmentally incalculable. I believe that the real reason for this is to provide these proposed potash mines with the needed water that they require to function.

Here is the problem. I highly doubt that the NDP supports this. That is likely why they tried to run a Conservstive as their candidate in the constituency. If they outright speak out on this then they are attacked for being anti-jobs and against progress. We have been down all these issues before.
 

There is a finite amount of potash in the province. Once it is gone, it is never coming back. It is non-renewable.

The NDP has always been about maximizing royalties and planning for tomorrow. These right wing governments are about destroying the environment, and selling out for immediate gain with absolutely no concern for the future. So no, I cannot speak for the NDP but I am confident that they are very worried about what is happening. I also believe that had they spoken out about mining expansion that they would have been attacked harshly for their efforts.

Yes, green energy would have been good to talk about but it should have been discussed in conjunction with the status of the crown corporations.

 

 

 

 

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

The NDP in Saskatchewan did govern this province for more than 50 years. I think that they know more about Saskatchewan government finance than either you or I do. These are the very same people who brought in human rights, government funded healthcare, dental care, pharmacsre, the highest minimum wage in the country, the best labour legislation, pay equity, and much much more and all with a province that had very little to work with.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Here is a Globe and Mail article discussing the Saskatchewan government's fiscal reality in the early 1990s:

"Premier reveals Saskatchewan flirted with bankruptcy 

Undisclosed federal bailout averted crisis in 1993 

Saturday, March 22, 1997
By David Roberts 
The Globe and Mail

Saskatchewan was on the brink of declaring bankruptcy in early 1993 and might have done so if the prime minister, Brian Mulroney, had not stepped in with emergency financial assistance, Premier Roy Romanow revealed yesterday.

One day after his New Democratic government tabled its fourth consecutive surplus budget, Mr. Romanow disclosed just how precipitously close the province came in early 1993 to being unable to pay creditors during the debt crisis that then faced the nation's most impecunious provinces.

"I think The Globe and Mail ran a story on the front page of one of its editions around that time about an unnamed province being rumoured to be on the verge of bankruptcy," Mr. Romanow said in an interview.

"The Bank of Canada was very chilled by this, as was the federal government. At that time it was Mr. Mulroney's government. We had one budget in which we just simply--and this is going to be in my memoirs if I ever write my memoirs--where the cabinet and caucus [were] gridlocked in ideology and coming to the cliff in making some of these decisions.

"And I must pay a little tribute to Mr. Mulroney here, because he was able, through his minister of finance, to grease some payment from the federal government to the Province of Saskatchewan."

Mr. Romanow said Saskatchewan Finance Minister Janice MacKinnon met secretly in Ottawa with her federal counterpart, Donald Mazankowski, to try to explain the province's dangerous fiscal position and how the province was close to defaulting on its debt payments on more than $15-billion.

"She was able to meet with Mazankowski to help us put the [1993] budget together and help us get over this little crisis.

"It would have been quite an embarrassment for Canada--let alone Saskatchewan--had that ever taken place. It's just a little inside story about how grave it was."

Mr. Romanow did not reveal the terms of the federal bailout, but in March of 1993, The Globe published a story disclosing that federal officials were quietly canvassing the country's financial community to draw up contingency plans in the event some provinces were no longer able to raise money in foreign bond markets. 

A plan was discussed whereby the Bank of Canada would arrange emergency borrowings for unnamed hard-pressed provinces which, as a result of their indebtedness, might be shut out of international capital markets.

The federal government was preparing to step in to manage on an emergency basis the financial affairs of any province requiring such help--a form of trusteeship--while its borrowings would be provided by the central bank. Both Mr. Romanow and federal officials denied the reports at the time.

"It's just not going to happen in Saskatchewan," the Premier said then.

But this was at a time when the International Monetary Fund had issued sharp warnings to Ottawa and the provinces about the level of public indebtedness, which had reached unprecedented levels.

"It was a crisis for us in 1993," said Mr. Romanow, who discovered when he took office late in 1991 that his government had inherited a financial strait jacket after a decade of deficit spending by the previous Tory government of Grant Devine.

"Statistically, I think it was a race between Newfoundland and ourselves as to which of the provincial governments had a more critical fiscal picture on their hands," Mr. Romanow said. "I really think it was Saskatchewan. Our per-capita deficit was the highest of any province, as was our per-capita debt. And our lending sources had shrunk from over 100 to about 20 or 22, based on a series of bond-rating downgrades."

Meantime, in something akin to another untold story, Saskatchewan has managed significantly to reverse its fiscal fortunes this week with a two-percentage-point sales-tax cut and a $370-million 1996-97 budgetary surplus, thanks to a buoyant economy, sharp program cuts and taxation hikes. Newfoundland remains in very difficult fiscal shape.

The two provinces, fiscal basket cases just four years ago, delivered very different budget forecasts on Thursday.

While Saskatchewan's medium-term outlook appears reasonably healthy, with talk of further surpluses and possible tax reductions, Newfoundlanders are still biting the bullet with the announcement of more deficit spending, strict government cutbacks and civil-service layoffs."
 

NorthReport

I think the NDP picked up another vote for future elections.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7423929/saskatchewan-provincial-election-alea...

Misfit Misfit's picture

From the previous article:

"The Bank of Canada was very chilled by this, as was the federal government. At that time it was Mr. Mulroney's government. We had one budget in which we just simply--and this is going to be in my memoirs if I ever write my memoirs--where the cabinet and caucus [were] gridlocked in ideology and coming to the cliff in making some of these decisions."

The austerity measures were not easy decisions to make for anyone at the time. The ideological issues were all addressed  thoroughly.

The article says:

"And I must pay a little tribute to Mr. Mulroney here, because he was able, through his minister of finance, to grease some payment from the federal government to the Province of Saskatchewan."

Mr. Romanow said Saskatchewan Finance Minister Janice MacKinnon met secretly in Ottawa with her federal counterpart, Donald Mazankowski, to try to explain the province's dangerous fiscal position and how the province was close to defaulting on its debt payments on more than $15-billion.

"She was able to meet with Mazankowski to help us put the [1993] budget together and help us get over this little crisis."

From this segment we learn three things:

1. The province was on the verge of defaulting on its loan payments. It was close to bankruptcy.

2. The Federal government had to lend the province money to pay creditors.

3. In return for helping Saskatchewan, the Federal government defined how the money was going to be spent.

It is always easy to blame Roy Romanow and the NDP for the austerity. Once you owe money to foreign creditors and once you get to the position where you require the help of the Federal government, those decisions are no longer yours. This is reality.

Tommy Douglas took over a province that was heavily in debt. He was the very first socialist government in North America and on a continent that was extremely hostile to socialism. Something happened in that climate which motivated him to really want to pay down that debt as quickly as he could and to never wish to go into debt ever again. He was the most fiscally prudent premier in our nation's history. 

If you want to build a socialist dream in an environment that is extremely hostile to socialism then you have to find that money to finance your social programs all by yourself.

The article says:

"A plan was discussed whereby the Bank of Canada would arrange emergency borrowings for unnamed hard-pressed provinces which, as a result of their indebtedness, might be shut out of international capital markets.

The federal government was preparing to step in to manage on an emergency basis the financial affairs of any province requiring such help--a form of trusteeship--while its borrowings would be provided by the central bank. Both Mr. Romanow and federal officials denied the reports at the time."

We learn from this:

1. Provinces can actually be shut out of international capital markets.

2. The Bank of Canada can offer assistance but if they do, the Federal government steps in and takes over the financial affairs of your province.

I will repeat that the Saskatchewan government did have to accept a bailout package from the Federal government. This means that the Federal government imposed austerity measures on the province that the Saskatchewan government was legally bound to comply with.

From the article:

"I really think it was Saskatchewan. Our per-capita deficit was the highest of any province, as was our per-capita debt. And our lending sources had shrunk from over 100 to about 20 or 22, based on a series of bond-rating downgrades.""

1. Saskatchewan had the worst international bond rating possible. More than 80% of foreign creditors had refused to offer the province credit. Our provincial bonds were perilously close to junk bond status.

I've discussed these very same issues numerous times in the past and for some reason, nothing that I write about ever seems to sink in but provinces do not have an unlimited expense account. Once foreign creditors lose confidence in your ability to meet your payments and you have to request the assistance of the Federal government and the Bank of Canada you forfeit your own control over your own affairs.

Around the same time that the Federal government imposed those austerity measures on Saskatchewan, Norway had started investing 100% of its annual oil royalties in a trust fund, in Canada we call these heritage funds. It was clearly stipulated that no future governments could tap into the fund for 25 years. After that 25 years, no government could withdrawal any more than 4%  annually from that fund. Norway had less oil than Alberta. The Alberta oil industry started in the 1950s. Norway's oil industry didn't start until the late 80s or early 90s. By 2015, Norway had a trillion dollars saved up. Every year they have 40 billion dollars that they can spend on infrastructure and government programs. Alberta has nothing to show for their royalties from their oil.
 

If you want to build a utopian society with abundant social programs then you are further ahead to do it all by yourself and not by borrowing large sums of money. You have to erase and redefine fifty years of Saskatchewan lived history in order to argue otherwise.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

My sister-in-law's uncle was the chancellor of the University of Saskatchewan many years ago. He would attend meetings in Toronto with university heads from all across the country. He recounted that because he was from Saskatchewan his peers down east treated him like he had no mind and had nothing of value to offer. It is a common observation noticed by people from Saskatchewan of some from other parts of the country.

I find the very same problem with some on this board. There was the view expressed that no one would choose to retire to Saskatchewan from assumed more desirable locations in Canada. There was also the rehashing of the mantra about Roy Romanow's "austerity measures" and implied here but not expressed again, the alleged rural hospital closures.

People in Saskatchewan understand left wing ideology just like Canadians do elsewhere. Unlike everywhere else, we actually implemented things that many Canadians today only dream of having. We have actually governed for fifty years in one of the toughest provinces to economically stabilize. 

I am not university educated. I am not dumb either. I don't appreciate the patronizing attitude that I get from some on this board who feel that my words have no value. When I have the very same argument four times with the same person who spews the very same factoids      
back at me as though the three previous discussions about the topic never happened, my words therefore mean absolutely nothing. They have no value on this board.

If you don't want to listen to me then read from someone who you will identify with but please do read about the history of social democrats governing in this province. I recommend that some of you read with a more open mind than what I have witnessed here personally.

I don't know why the Saskatchewan NDP does the things that it does. I am not party to that information. I also do not know what the solution is for the party, and at this point I don't know if I even care anymore.

Our province is at 25 billion dollars in debt escalating to 30 billion or more within four years. Our crown corporations are being sabotaged and sold. The ability to ever recover from this is futile.

An expert once said in 1991 that it would take at least forty years of straight NDP government to bring the province back to where it was before Grant Devine took over.  After 16 years, the NDP managed to cut the total debt by 1/3.  His projections were very accurate. 

This Saskatchewan Party government is destroying the revenue generating crowns  that any future governments would need to try to rebuild the province.  They are being wrecked beyond recognition, and the debt is far more tragic than it has ever been. The NDP would never be able to get more than one or two terms in office ever again if or when they ever do succeed in winning an election. They needed a really strong opposition to try to hold the government in check and they didn't get it.

As far as I am concerned there is no more hope.

Ken Burch

Misfit wrote:

The NDP in Saskatchewan did govern this province for more than 50 years. I think that they know more about Saskatchewan government finance than either you or I do. These are the very same people who brought in human rights, government funded healthcare, dental care, pharmacsre, the highest minimum wage in the country, the best labour legislation, pay equity, and much much more and all with a province that had very little to work with.

Before Romanow, they balanced the books by taxing the rich.  Romanow did it almost entirely through cuts.

Ken Burch

And I wasn't even thinking about hospital closures, let alone implying them.  Nor would I ever imply that your words have no value.

jerrym

I am not as pessimistic as some about the Saskatchewan NDP. They are still the number #2 in popular support and the #3 party, the Buffalo party who want independence, are unlikely to ever surpass them. The Greens are still microscopic in voting power.

Governments usually defeat themselves as the population becomes weary of their mistakes, as well as their growing arrogance and corruption. Often times they are able to renew themselves by picking a new leader, as the Saskatchewan Party did when Brad Wall's popularity started to fall and the NDP rose in the polls. However, that eventually wears thin, and often only works through one leadership change in terms of winning elections, as was the case in BC with the Liberals, the NDP in Manitoba, and the federal Liberals under Chretien and Martin. When the collapse comes it is often quite quick but unforseen because the problems have been building for years while the people continue to vote for the dominant party creating a weariness under the large victories that suddenly causes a collapse like someone breaking through thin ice. 

However, the biggest opportunity I think the NDP has over time is due to climate change which is already starting to impact a global investment shift from fossil fuels to renewables. There is growing evidence every year that the economic, let alone environmental, impacts of global warming are speeding up at an exponential rate. This means that the Saskatchewan oil boom, which is already in trouble, is unlikely to ever fully recover and is likely to further greatly decline over time, thereby creating problems for the Saskatchewan Party electorally, as its record of victories is tied to the boom and its fossil fuel policies. The NDP cannot outdo the Saskatchewan Party in this area.

The NDP needs to be ready to start moving toward a renewable energy strategy before the failure of the fossil fuel economy causes major problems for the Saskatchewan Party. With its many times larger base than the Green Party it should then be able to take advantage of the situation in elections. On the other hand, if it does not carry out this shift over time, it will eventually be challenged by the Greens or some new party in the long run. 

Saskatchewan has some natural advantages when it comes to renewable energy. Estevan is the "sunshine capital of Canada" getting more sunlight than any other community in Canad annually. (https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/estevan). I remember having to ride my motorcycle on a straight highway in Saskatchewan for hundreds of miles at a 60 degree angle because of the wind. So there are opportunities to be had there. 

Misfit Misfit's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

Misfit wrote:

The NDP in Saskatchewan did govern this province for more than 50 years. I think that they know more about Saskatchewan government finance than either you or I do. These are the very same people who brought in human rights, government funded healthcare, dental care, pharmacsre, the highest minimum wage in the country, the best labour legislation, pay equity, and much much more and all with a province that had very little to work with.

Before Romanow, they balanced the books by taxing the rich.  Romanow did it almost entirely through cuts.

From that article in post 169:

"Meantime, in something akin to another untold story, Saskatchewan has managed significantly to reverse its fiscal fortunes this week with a two-percentage-point sales-tax cut and a $370-million 1996-97 budgetary surplus, thanks to a buoyant economy, sharp program cuts and taxation hikes..."

Misfit Misfit's picture

If I do remember correctly, he did cut income taxes and reduced corporate tax rates. I cannot remember which year but around the turn of the century which I had considered to be highly regressive and unnecessary. However, I also remember that he was in a minority situation then and had formed a coalition with the Liberal MLA's at the time and there were strings attached to the agreement.

kropotkin1951

I am sorry Misfit that I have pissed you off. I did not intend to offend you. Talking about who moves from one place to another is like looking at election results and saying that Green votes moved to the NDP or vice versa because in all likelihood both things occurred. You have your friends and family that have moved one way and I live in an area where many of the seniors I know have retired here from the prairies and the interior. My brother and his family still live in Saskatoon and despite your vitriol I have extremely fond memories of it. I consider it by far the best city on the prairies but then I have only spent time in Calgary, Red Deer and Winnipeg so my knowledge is not complete.

I agree with you about the Sask NDP's budget problems. I helped elect Janice in 1991 and as part of her executive got in-depth reports about what they found when they took office.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Nobody should ever take me personally. It's me. You can listen to Republicans across the border and shake your head. Well, they're here too. In Saskatchewan. Masses of them. All over the place. It's an infestation of obnoxious stupidity. I am just settling down from having one month with them because they open their mouths during elections and voice their opinions. Yes they do. They certainly do.

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

I just phoned my neighbour to talk about  Hallowe'en protocol. She's mad and wants to sue the governments over the "silly covid restrictions..." 

I'm surrounded by them.

Aristotleded24

Misfit wrote:
I am not university educated. I am not dumb either. I don't appreciate the patronizing attitude that I get from some on this board who feel that my words have no value. When I have the very same argument four times with the same person who spews the very same factoids back at me as though the three previous discussions about the topic never happened, my words therefore mean absolutely nothing. They have no value on this board.

I absolutely agree, and I think many on the left (especially those with more formal education and who identify with the professional, rather than the working class) forget. It wasn't university-educated academics who elected the first socialist government in North America. It was average, everyday farmers, soldiers, and labourers. The woke left that looks down on people without formal education forgets this. And speaking of woke:

It's very trendy among educated professionals go on about "human rights," as if there's an inherent, natural connection between formal education and support for human rights. But you're absolutely correct about Saskatchewan being a pioneer in the area of human rights. Not many people realize that the Saskatchewan Bill of Rights actually predates the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Not bad for average, everyday people I say.

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:
Enough already about housing prices in SK.  

The real question is...is there any reason for the SNDP to even stay in existence if they've managed to lose vote share and gain no seats AGAIN?

If they made no recovery this year...will they ever recover?  Will they ever come remotely close to winning again?

If they do what the party pros want and move even further to the right, will it matter if they ever DO win-in many respects, it was worse than losing for Sask to have Romanow's policies as an alleged "NDP" government in the Nineties.

Why not just dissolve the SNDP and replace it with something else?  Something more grassroots, something that is not obsessed with "respectability" to the exclusion of all else?

Nothing is working for the SNDP.  It doesn't look as if anything ever will work for it again.

So why keep it going in its current form?

Ken, you are ignoring the basic reality on the ground in Saskatchewan. Misfit (and before her, Timebandit when she was a more regular member of this community) outlined in great detail the demographic shifts that have happened and that there simply is no lefty base in that province to push the agenda you are promoting. Furthermore, Meili is on the left of the party. He led the party to exactly the same results as Lingenfelter and Broten, whom I would assume are more centrist. So it goes beyond positioning on the left-right spectrum. Something else is wrong. Trent Worthespoon and Nicole Saurer actually led the NDP, if not to first place, then into serious contention in public opinion polls during their tenures as interim leaders. Once Meili took over, public opinion polls quickly reverted back to where they had been. I don't know where Worthespoon and Saurer stand on the establishment-grassroots ends of the spectrum. Perhaps we could presume they are more on the establishment end. By that logic, can it not be fair to assume that a more establishment direction is what the NDP needs?

Aristotleded24

Furthermore, on the question of leadership, let's go back to something I said earlier. Remember the issue with the GTH and other corrupt Saskatchewan Party dealings, particlarly in the city of Regina? Where was Meili on that? He basically farmed that out to his Regina-area MLAs and let them to the heavy lifting on that. It's true that you want to give your MLAs some room to shine in their critic roles and a chance to go after the government on their specific areas of expertise. But something that big has to be dealt with by the leader directly. Let's move eastward to Manitoba. Wab Kinew is doing his job as an Opposition leader, he actually led the NDP to an increase in seats here (something the NDP in Saskatchewan has never achieved in a general election since 2003) and the gap between the NDP and PCs in Manitoba is much smaller than the gap between the NDP and the Saskatchewan Party. If Pallister was dealing with the same kind of scandals that the Saskatchewan Party is, you can bet that Kinew himself would be all over that.

Misfit Misfit's picture

Saskatchewan had the first Human Rights legislation in North America and it was the first of its kind in the British Commonwealth. Tommy Douglas hired Morris Schumiacher, a bright, young, lawyer from Calgary to draw up the Saskatchewan Bill of Rights as soon as the horrors of the holocaust started to surface after WWII. Tommy Douglas wanted a bill written into law which guaranteed that the Saskatchewan government would never do to the people of Saskatchewan what the Nazi government did to its own people.

The Saskatchewan Bill of Rights became the blue print for the UN Declaration on Human Rights. Morris Schumiacher was hired by the UN to head the legal delegation commissioned to draw up the UN Declaration with the Saskatchewan Bill as its working model.

Ken, you don't care about government debt. But the people of Saskatchewan do. In fact, one could argue that it was the number one election issue in the province. Saskatchewan has lived through the bankruptcy scare of the early 90s. Saskatchewan had their bonds downgraded to close to junk bond status. 80% of foreign creditors would not lend money to Saskatchewan. The IMF stepped in and cracked down. The Federal government stepped in and took over the financial affairs of the province and enforced AUSTERITY. Even after I clearly spelled this out to you, you shot right back with Roy Romanow and his austerity legacy yet again yesterday. 

I have no idea what shenanigans the PC government pulled to have created that situation. They bragged once that they were going to do everything in their power to ensure that the NDP never got their hands on the province ever again. The issue is that it did happen. The IMF stepped in and the Federal Liberal government drafted their austerity budgets of the early 90s.

The Federal government is supposed to fund 50% of all healthcare spending but now only pay about 15% or less. They pushed their responsibility down onto the provinces. Small provinces like PEI have to struggle harder as a result. All of this was done because of the IMF crackdown due to the actions of a few rogue PC politicians in Saskatchewan.  Theee politicians decided to create chaos in Saskatchewan because they were going to be voted out of office.

Deficits don't matter until they do matter. Saskatchewan has lived that reality. When governments crack down on deficits they hurt the most vulnerable in society. Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper racked up total debt just as well as the rest of them. They don't mention that but they use the threat of deficit spending by other parties as a ploy to get elected and they slash essential programs and hurt people to make their numbers look more sellable to the public. A right wing politician with control over government spending is like a child with a lethal weapon. which brings me to my second point.

Crowns. Allan Blakeney did what no premier had ever done before. He bought up 50.1% of the potash mines in the province and used the revenues to fund social programs and to invest in the future. Trudeau senior invested in Petro Canada. These things can be done and when done properly they work wonders. We have the resources. We simply have no will to utilize them properly.
 

We are the second largest country in the world geographically and the most resource rich. We have 1/10th the population of the United States. We should be sitting at number one in the world in every progressive category but we are not even close. We need to control our own resources ourselves. The waffle movement promoted this. Saskatchewan fought with the federal government over this during the 1970s. 

There is more at play here than simple ideology. In order to understand Saskatchewan, you have to actually take our history seriously and give our former premiers more consideration for contributions to this country. Our NDP premiers from Saskatchewan were the very best in Canada. They take a back seat to nobody.

I will say it one last time. Do read about our history. You will learn from it.

The people of Saskatchewan did not want to hear about more program funding. Ryan Miele's left wing approach was like dumping gasoline on smouldering hot coals. The NDP have a perception problem for running up spiralling deficits. The people of this province don't want that.

One month ago, I said that we need an "angry Tom" kind of leader who would shake things up. We needed a strong legal frog mouth who would exploit the Premier's accident history, personal bankruptcy, the government scandals, and expose their deficit spending. This would not have won the election. They could have arguably won anywhere up to 24 seats with a different and more aggressive approach.

jerrym

The Saskatchewan NDP needs to reassess its campaign strategy for the future, including how to shift to renewable resources as global warming increasing hits home. 

As in previous elections, the NDP "strategists" chose to take the low, so-called "safe" road and discourage discussion of the climate crisis or Saskatchewan having the country's highest per-capita carbon emissions. The leaders' debate, with no mention of climate, was in stark contrast to the B.C. one, which rationally discussed carbon pricing.

The Saskatchewan debate was also in sharp contrast to the last U.S. presidential debate where Democrat Joe Biden was forthright that the climate crisis was "an existential threat" and that there had to be a quick transition away from fossil fuels.  ...

There were no nuances when NDP Leader Ryan Meili stated provincial party policy: the NDP supported energy workers and getting our resources to market, period! ...

Meili won the leadership largely by recruiting young members. Saskatchewan has more millennials than baby boomers, so appealing to this upcoming generation would seem a good long-term coalition-building strategy. 

Millennials, however, are deeply concerned about both climate and inequality -- the realities staring them in the face. Yet the Sask. NDP consistently turns its head from the challenges that the climate crisis poses for the resource dependent Saskatchewan economy, which past NDP governments, along with the Sask. party, helped to build.

The wider public may end up a little perplexed about the election outcome. An Angus Reid poll taken just before October 26 showed that "half of voters are looking for a third option." And also, that "almost half also feel the Sask. party majorities have been too large." ...

Meili's performance debating Premier Scott Moe, who sometimes stumbles on his words, was above expectation. He was passionate about the minimum wage and about the suicide crisis among northern Indigenous youth. 

There was, however, no drilling down on any realities. No mention that Saskatchewan has the highest domestic homicide and Indigenous incarceration rate of any province, and Canada's highest per-capita carbon footprint.

Meili had several chances to push back on the Sask. party's neo-liberal, self-regulation, COVID "strategy." Saskatchewan's infection rate is steadily rising.  ...

If the Democrats take back the White House, the Keystone pipeline will again go on the chopping block. I suspect that, with his serious carbon addiction, Alberta Premier Jason Kenney privately hopes for a Trump victory. What do the Sask. NDP stalwarts really want? ...

The Western "separatists" got nearly three per cent of the vote, but they received as much as 20 per cent in some of the 17 ridings where they ran. In his victory speech, Scott Moe appealed to them as he defended pipelines and railed against the carbon tax. 

The Greens received below three per cent but had slightly higher support in a few ridings. If you compare their three per cent to the B.C. Greens getting 15 per cent, and the Saskatchewan NDP losing so badly while the B.C. NDP had such a huge victory, you can see what is occurring in carbon-blind Saskatchewan. ...

Polling today shows shifting public opinion on energy and climate, on which the NDP could build. A Vote Compass survey of Saskatchewan residents just prior to the election found that not only did 70 per cent want more renewable energy, but 58 per cent wanted more action to reduce greenhouse gases. 

Yet climate was never really discussed. The politicians and mainstream media, including Postmedia and the CBC, have mirrored each other in this neglect.

The Sask. NDP clearly does not yet know how to message about these grave matters. Their timid policies on renewable energy, energy efficiency and wetland protection were one-dimensional and not framed within the broader context of the global climate crisis. 

Were there a stronger Green party that threatened to take votes from the NDP, you might see more in-depth policy and more insight about our collective interdependence with the health of the natural world. ...

The Saskatchewan NDP has had the opportunity to press the restart button and commit to building a progressive coalition. ...

The party might have been able to start building back some solid support, had it been ready with a coherent alternative vision that honestly faced the challenges of the climate crisis for our carbon-intensive economy, and laid out a just transition for working people.  ...

The only way to build a progressive coalition big enough to outvote the united right is to do it. Even in this wasteland of conservative, fossil-fuel politics, which at times seems to be in a different country, the future is not going to look like the past.

No one says this will be easy. When the Sask. party held its 2018 leadership convention to replace Brad Wall, it had just over 27,000 members. This wasn't close to the more than 60,000 members in the NDP during the 1962 Medicare crisis. Or even to the 46,000 NDP members still reported in 1991. But it was much larger than the 8,000 NDP members left in 2012. 

If the NDP ever wants to govern Saskatchewan again it will have to start to take the "high road," and to honestly and assertively build a new coalition that can embrace the future. Putting "people first" isn't going to ring true without confronting the deeper crisis head on. 

Perhaps by keeping the party from slipping into complete oblivion, Meili and his supporters may have provided an interlude to allow the party to embark on this new path before it is too late. Based on all the lost opportunities, and the conditioned political habits over recent decades, I would not hold my breath.

https://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/views-expressed/2020/10/saskatchewan-nd...

kropotkin1951

I thought I would add a little piece on Tommy's financial person, Clarence Fines. The trick is to win five consecutive majorities. The 1952 election was when he won his third majority and the CCF increased its seats and got over 50% of votes. That was the voters thanks for balancng the books and paying of the debt. Medicare was not introduced until the province was debt free.

Fines had a tremendous influence over the reforms made by the CCF government over the following years. As treasurer, Fines made sure that these reforms were made while producing balanced budgets. In 1944, Saskatchewan had a debt of $218 million, 38% of Saskatchewan's GDP. With successive balanced budgets, Fines brought this number down to $70 million by 1949. In 1953, Saskatchewan was debtless. For the next 16 years, all of Fines' budgets had surpluses. During his tenure as an MLA, Fines also served as the minister responsible for the Bureau of Publications, Queen's Printer Office, Government Purchasing Agency, the Liquor Board, and Saskatchewan Government Insurance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Fines

kropotkin1951

This part of the article above is why the Sask NDP is not running elections that are in touch with the people they need to reach. The NDP wins seats on the ground and you can't do that if you can't even recruit members.

No one says this will be easy. When the Sask. party held its 2018 leadership convention to replace Brad Wall, it had just over 27,000 members. This wasn't close to the more than 60,000 members in the NDP during the 1962 Medicare crisis. Or even to the 46,000 NDP members still reported in 1991. But it was much larger than the 8,000 NDP members left in 2012. 

jerrym

I am not a Kory Teneycke fan and I think his article overstates the situation and is wrong on several points, but he has a point with regard to a potential trouble spot for the federal Conservatives with the arrival of the separtist provincial Buffalo Party on the scene. I also see another possible problem for the Saskatchewan Party if its popularity starts to slip and disenchanted voters for them move over time to some extent toward the Buffalo Party, decreasing the Saskatchewan's Party margin of victory. However, any significant improvement in the NDP Party's performance in future elections primarily depends on the party broadening its appeal.

Teneycke also discusses the threat presented to the federal Conservatives by the Maverick Party,  formerly known as Wexit Canada, which is the federal separtist party running in Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC that potentially take some Conservative votes. However, if the Conservatives address the western disenchantment too heavily it could cost them votes in the rest of the country. 

The Buffalo Party raised eyebrows with the surprising levels of support it garnered. And that could be bad news for Erin O'Toole and the Conservative Party of Canada in the next federal election.

If you haven't heard of the Buffalo Party, don't feel bad. It is one of a spate of "Wexit" parties that have spontaneously formed from the ether over the past several years to advocate for the concept of Western separatism.

Its leader, Wade Sira, is a truck-driver, class 1A driving instructor and a municipal reeve. The party fielded candidates (with equally low public profiles) in only 17 of the province's 61 ridings. The party had virtually no existing ground organization and virtually no money to run its campaign.

Despite these limitations, the Buffalo Party finished third overall in the popular vote and scored strong second-place victories in four bedrock Conservative ridings...

On election night, Premier Moe used his victory speech to solemnly talk directly to Buffalo Party voters: "I want to say I hear you. And I want to say this government hears you. We share your frustrations. And we share many of your objectives. We are not happy with the federal government either." ...

Legitimate economic and political grievances of Western Canada have periodically been sidelined by federal Conservatives in favour of chasing political support in the vote-rich provinces of Ontario and Quebec. In response, populist conservative parties have found popular support, particularly in times of economic hardship — like those in Western Canada today, and in the energy and resource sectors.

While lip service is paid to these issues by federal Conservatives, they have not had great success in resolving them in a substantive way, be it the construction of pipelines, resource development more generally, or reform of equalization payments made to other provinces. ...

Support for Western separatism remains relatively low, but that doesn't put a cap on political support for the Maverick Party, in the same way that support for Quebec separatism doesn't act as a cap for support for the Bloc Quebecois or the Parti Quebecois.

The metric to watch is voter dissatisfaction more generally. Do Western Canadian voters feel they're being heard in Canada's Parliament today? Do they continue to see the Conservative Party of Canada (CPC) as the best vehicle to give voice and resolution to their political grievances?

The Maverick Party doesn't need to win many seats to disrupt the CPC's electoral fortunes. It may not even need to win any seats. Gaining 10 to 20 per cent support in ridings in the West would result in a loss of seats to other parties, be it to the NDP in the B.C. interior, Edmonton and Regina, or to the Liberals in the lower-mainland of B.C.

The challenge for Erin O'Toole and the Conservative Party of Canada is to make the case they are the best vehicle to address the region's grievances. They need to harness the energy of this growing wave of Western discontent before it spawns a viable political competitor and washes away any chance of them forming a majority Conservative government in the next election.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-saskatchewan-election-western-co...

kropotkin1951

The NDP needs to spend a couple of years trying to build an active membership. But to do that they need to present themselves as a viable option by attracting people with the potential to be quality candidates in most if not all ridings and having them out in the community openly preaching NDP policies. Elections can be won on the ground but it takes people power. The fact that the party membership has declined to under 9,000 is the problem not a symptom. The BC NDP had over 12,000 people donate to them from July to the end of September and they out fund raised the BC Liberal's. I wonder how many people sent money into the Sask NDP leading up to the election?

Aristotleded24

I agree with Scott Moe on something:

Quote:

Sask. Premier Scott Moe stood his ground on the topic of locking down the province in a radio interview yesterday, even after the province announced a record 439 new cases of COVID-19.

Moe was on CORUS Entertainment's The Roy Green Show to discuss his strategy around COVID-19 and how to prevent a "disastrous" circuit-breaker lockdown in Saskatchewan. 

Shutting down would dramatically impact small businesses in Saskatchewan and in Canada, he told Green.

"That's why we are looking at every other lever that we have to control the spread of this virus … and minimize the impact on our small businesses," Moe said. 

...

On Sunday NDP Leader Ryan Meili said Moe's interview showed the premier was gambling with the lives of Saskatchewan people and taking huge risks with the provincial economy by preventing a short-term lockdown.

To Meili, Moe's comments showed he was ignoring what experts have said, what health professionals have said and what's happening in other provinces.

The Saskatchewan Union of Nurses criticized the government's measures as not enough earlier this month, adding the organization to a growing list of health professionals and advocates calling on the government to do more. 

In Manitoba wide-scale lockdowns were enacted once that province's health-care system was overwhelmed by a second wave of COVID-19, something Meili warned could happen here soon.

"[Moe is] stuck with his own ideas and the fact of the matter is, is that his ideas on this are dumb," Meili said. 

"He doesn't have a good understanding of what's going on. He's in over his head and he's making the wrong choices and we're all going to pay for it."

I guess Meili didn't get the memo that the province just had an election and voters saw right through his party's attempt to politicize the covid over the issue of school reopenings. Furthermore, Meili is a doctor. Has he not kept up with the increasing evidence, some of it published in medical journals, that lockdowns have large-scale negative health impacts with nearly no impact on the death rate from covid? He should be using his platform as a doctor to lead on the topic and educate people, but instead he is trying to capitalize on a health crisis for political gain. Shame on him.

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