Join the discussion about Charlie Hebdo - closed

796 posts / 0 new
Last post
6079_Smith_W

Tough being a cartoonist in Luhansk too. The so-called culture minister of that so-called republic has called for death by firing squad for cartoonist Irina Filatova.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/10/luhansk-culture-minister-wa...

(maybe we should start a few more Ukraine threads for this one)

Amazing that these shoddy little scribblers have so much power.

 

 

NDPP

Charlie Hebdo Founder Says Murdered Editor 'Overdid' Provocative Cartoons

http://rt.com/news/222899-charlie-hebdo-roussel-obs/

"A founder of Charlie Hebdo has condemned the murdered editor Stephane Charbonnier of 'dragging the team' to their deaths by overdoing the satirical magazine's provocative cartoons.

'For years, decades even, it was a provocation, and then one day the provocation turns against us.' - Henri Roussel

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Durrutix wrote:

Amidst all the arguments about motivation and free speech it's worth keeping in mind that there is as yet no compelling evidence that the two individuals fingered for the attacks were even involved (claims of responsibility by "Al-Qaeda in Yemen," which may well be a pseudo operation, don't count).   It's also worth keeping in mind that even if the two individuals did carry out the attacks, they may have been guided/funded/trained by some intelligence agency.  This is really very common. 

Has anyone addressed this in a serious way? I mean, other than using the label "conspiracy theory" and ignoring it altogether?

The Charlie Hebdo Story Simply Doesn’t Wash

The PCR story covers most of the bases. It has been linked to already.

NDPP

Sad-But-True Farce Behind Israel's Funeral For Paris Kosher Market Terror Victims

http://forward.com/articles/212791/sad-but-true-farce-behind-israels-fun...?

'Musical Burial Plots, 5-Figure Bills and Bullying of Relatives'

"...There are no orderly regulations for who can order [a burial plot] on the state's behalf or how much they pay, so all kinds of fixers come in and want to make a killing,' said Meslin-Zahav. 'It's a disgrace that the state announced the funeral and even pressured the families to have the burials in Israel, but in the end, for the most basic thing, the grave, they asked payment.

Av Zara, director of the AMI foundation who was helping the families, described the situation as unpleasant.

'This isn't an easy decision. Muslims who were killed in the attack were buried in France, if we decide to bury in France, then it is clear our future is in France. There were senior members of the community who were asking if the Jews of France have two states. This is a crucial question...'

Another is Cui Bono?

lagatta

Thanks, I've sent this to friends in UJFP (Union juive française pour la paix), though I suspect they are already aware of that crap.

Moreover, Jews, like Muslims, do everything in their power to have their dead buried as soon as possible (Ahmed the murdered policeman was buried on the same day as the HyperCacher victims) but Ahmed was buried near Paris, so his family can visit his grave.

The sub-editor from Algeria was not a practising Muslim, so there was not the same cultural pressure.

Talk about adding insult to injury.

duncan cameron

This piece from Jacobin goes a long way to redeeming them from their initial take posted at the start of this thread. 

It is one of the better assessments of why the Anglo/US left often failed to understand the significance of the murders at Charlie Hebdo.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/community-standards/

BTW I thought Ken S with his willingness to change his mind showed a great spirit, and not for the first time around here.

Unionist

NS wrote:

I agree, cartoonists should stay away from anti-semitc tropes like including the star of David but I think that including the Israeli flag in poliitical cartoons does not cross the line

Of course it doesn't. It's the flag of a pariah apartheid state which commits aggression and occupation and murder with relative impunity. It deserves every attack that a pen can draw. But cross the line and ridicule Jews? or indigenous people? or Muslims? or women? or disabled people? or lesbians? and be prepared to be called every filthy name in the book.

Is this a difficult distinction to draw?

 

NDPP

Turkish President Accuses 'The West' of Being Behind Charlie Hebdo Attacks and Deliberately 'Blaming Muslims' as Conspiracy Theories Sweep the Internet Accusing Israel of Orchestrating It

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2908358/Turkish-president-accuse...

"The President of Turkey has suggested French security forces are to blame for the deadly terrorist attacks in Paris last week, since the culprits had recently served prison sentences. Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused the West of 'playing games with the Islamic world,' warning fellow Muslims to be 'aware'.

'French citizens carry out such a massacre, and Muslims pay the price,' Erdogan said yesterday. 'That's very meaningful...Didn't their intelligence organisation track those who leave prison?

'Games are being played with the Islamic world, we need to be aware of this.'

 

Charlie Hebdo False Flag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m13_hA6PiVY

 

Char-LIE Hebdo

https://youtube.com/watch?v=yvjMHJyZQaE

duncan cameron

Here is Rick Mercer of the right to offend and the role of cartoonists.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/01/14/rick-mercer-paris-shooting-charl...

NDPP

Unionist wrote:

But cross the line and ridicule Jews? or indigenous people? or Muslims? or women? or disabled people? or lesbians? and be prepared to be called every filthy name in the book.

Is this a difficult distinction to draw?

 

Judging by the acclaim for Charlie Hebdo, at least in the case of Muslims, very much so.

 

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

 

Charlie Hebdo False Flag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m13_hA6PiVY

 

So you agree with the video that the people at Charlie Hebdo faked their deaths and are still alive?

NDPP

No. But I do think the shooters were patsies and the thing was orchestrated by intelligence agencies.

Unionist

alan smithee wrote:

Since Canada is not but an Israeli colony,why not?

http://montrealgazette.com/news/world/opinion-canada-should-welcome-jews...

That's a particularly ignorant comment, alan. This country of yours didn't accept Jewish refugees from the Nazi genocide, and very few of the survivors after, for well-documented anti-semitic and later anti-communist motives. If French Jews feel unsafe - or want to immigrate here for whatever reason - you're going to connect them with the criminal state of Israel? How about retracting that, please.

swallow swallow's picture

lagatta wrote:

Carlos Latuff has more than once resorted to antisemitic tropes. And no, I do NOT mean anti-Zionist: I've been involved in Palestine solidarity for decades, and was on the support staff for the boat to Gaza and against the latest Israeli assault this past summer. 

White power, franchement. Charlie collaborators have been attacking Le Pen and racist thugs for a very long time.

I think it is important to read the piece from ricochet. There is a deep cultural misunderstanding among the anglo left.

I wonder if anyone from the anglo left has responded in any way? 

Pondering

How do they explain the surviving captive from the print factory? They would have told him they were innocent of the Hebdo killings.

Durrutix

dupe

NDPP

'I Am Charlie And I Guard The Master's House' 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40697.htm

"How neat for the French state to be able to spin the Charlie Hebdo killings into a fairy tale in which it plays the role of the knight on horseback riding onto the scene to rescue western civilization from barbarity..."

 

I Do Not Mourn The Deaths Of Racist, Imperialist Provocateurs

https://ohtarzie.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/i-do-not-mourn-the-deaths-of-r...

"To now lionize Charlie Hebdo cartoonists as 'martyrs to free speech' whose deaths 'retroactively ennoble the original decision to publish the cartoons' as if the Muslim world is repressing the West rather than the other way around is repellant in the extreme, as are calls from across the political spectrum to rub the whole world's noses in the cartoons...

The emphasis is yet more evidence - though none is needed - of the top to bottom rot of the dominant political culture - particularly the ready cause the alleged left increasingly finds with fascism - and of the complete futility of engaging with it."

 

Dying 'Good Career Move' For French Hate Mag 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40711.htm

"Muslims have become the most vulnerable community in Europe and around the world for persecution by Western state and non-state bigots. Over the past week Muslim communities and places of worship have been attacked by mobs in Germany and France amid the climate of hatred that the likes of Charlie Hebdo and its state benefactors have been responsible for.

Astoundingly, over the past week, the Charlie Hebdo hate-rag has been transformed into some kind of heroic standard bearer and model of Western democratic enlightenment. The names of its deceased cartoonists have been cited with honors and cherished like saintly figures. French national narcissism has gone into self-serving overdrive, and we are all supposed to murmur with touching respect.

The French and international public are being manipulated as never before to rally behind dangerous reactionary anti-Muslim prejudice - and all this is presented as a virtue so beautiful that tears are to be shed."

Unionist

swallow wrote:

lagatta wrote:

Carlos Latuff has more than once resorted to antisemitic tropes. And no, I do NOT mean anti-Zionist: I've been involved in Palestine solidarity for decades, and was on the support staff for the boat to Gaza and against the latest Israeli assault this past summer. 

White power, franchement. Charlie collaborators have been attacking Le Pen and racist thugs for a very long time.

I think it is important to read the piece from ricochet. There is a deep cultural misunderstanding among the anglo left.

I wonder if anyone from the anglo left has responded in any way? 

Here's one response, from Shawn Whitney:

[url=http://redioactive.blogspot.ca/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-free-speech-islamop... Hebdo, Free Speech & Islamophobia: a response to Leigh Phillips[/url]

 

NDPP

Israel to Demand Apology For Anti-Semitic Netanyahu Cartoon

http://falastinews.com/2015/01/13/israel-demand-apology-anti-semitic-net...

"Israel is planning to demand an apology for a controversial cartoon that appeared in the British Sunday Times, Israel's ambassador to London, said Monday, while one minister mulled steps against the paper.

One day after the caricature sparked outrage among Jewish groups for its depiction of a bloodthirsty Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu building a wall with the blood and bodies of Palestinians, leading Israelis joined the chorus of condemnation. [Israeli ambassador Daniel ]Taub added that he was going to meet with the newspaper editor 'at the earliest opportunity, perhaps as early as today,' to express the government's concern about a cartoon that draws 'on classical anti-Semitic themes.'

 

'Je suis Palestinian': Isaeli Ambassador Furious Over MP's Netanyahu Tweet

http://rt.com/uk/222631-clegg-netanyahu-tweet-ward/

"The Israeli ambassador to Britain has written to Liberal Democrat leader and deputy PM Nick Clegg to condemn a tweet posted by David Ward MP on the presence of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the solidarity march in Paris on Sunday.

During the march, Lib Dem MP Ward tweeted: #Netanyahu in Paris march-what!!! Makes me feel sick' and 'Je suis #Palestinian.'

Ambassador Taub wrote to deputy PM Clegg to express his abhorrence at Ward's 'offensive and shocking' comments. A Liberal Democrat spokesperson told the BBC that Ward does not speak for the Liberal Democrat on this issue. 'He has well known and strongly held views on this issue but this tweet was clearly in bad taste,' the spokesperson said.

In July, 2014 in the midst of the IDF's Operation Protective Edge, Ward was forced to issue an apology after tweeting: 'The big question is - If I lived in #Gaza would I fire a rocket? - probably yes.'

The email and phone number of Ambassdor Taub is clearly visible on his letter. Please be my guest...

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Unionist wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Since Canada is not but an Israeli colony,why not?

http://montrealgazette.com/news/world/opinion-canada-should-welcome-jews...

That's a particularly ignorant comment, alan. This country of yours didn't accept Jewish refugees from the Nazi genocide, and very few of the survivors after, for well-documented anti-semitic and later anti-communist motives. If French Jews feel unsafe - or want to immigrate here for whatever reason - you're going to connect them with the criminal state of Israel? How about retracting that, please.

I'm sorry. There was no intention to offend anyone. In hindsight, that was an inapropriate comment. I'll delete it.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

*

Durrutix

Canadian Muslim challenges "free" speech/hate speech toward non-Muslims, is promptly arrested.  

http://www.news957.com/2015/01/15/local-food-vendor-under-fire-for-tweet...

A Muslim-Canadian named Jerry Reddick, who runs a hot-dog stand, decided to put "free speech" in Canada to the test.  

Reddick tweeted a bunch of obnoxious, offensive material reminiscent of "Charlie Habdo" except this time about Jews and victims of 9/11 and is being investigated for "hate speech."  

“I know you didn’t think freedom to insult worked both ways,” wrote Reddick, adding, “My point about free speech being limited was made loud and clear!”

Edit: Unlike in France, where dozens of Muslims have been arrested for "terror speech," with one man sentenced to 4 years in prison, it is not clear whether Reddick has actually been arrested: 

"Police received the complaint yesterday at 2:50 p.m., and according to a release, they’re still in the early stages of their investigation."

 

 

6079_Smith_W

How does someone being arrested for free speech discount the concerns of those who are trying to speak up for it?

And dying is a good career move? Nice one, if a bit of a re-tread (Jesus, Buddy Holly, Tupac). If you could make it funny you might have the makings of a cartoonist.

What makes me smile is that these self-described clowns still have the power to make all the doubleplusgood duckspeakers froth at the mouth

Durrutix

Police investigate complaint about anti-Semitic tweets

"Reddick’s freedom of speech argument was lost on Jon Goldberg, executive director of the Atlantic Jewish Council.

“This man is either demented, crazy or looking for trouble,” Goldberg said.

He spoke to media at the Nova Scotia Archives where he was attending an event recognizing the International Holocaust Remembrance Day and the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, a Nazi death camp.

“It’s right out of Goebbels, Himmler and Hitler,” Goldberg said, while explaining that he believes Reddick’s posts violate the country’s hate-crime law.

Goldberg said the comments make it clear that Reddick doesn’t care who his words hurt, including survivors of the Second World War.

Reddick, however, insists he’s not anti-Semitic.

“I respect all people,” he said. “Nobody agrees with what them boys did in France, nobody. I just wanted to point out hypocrisy.”

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1263151-police-investigate-complaint-...

Unionist

alan smithee wrote:

Unionist wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Since Canada is not but an Israeli colony,why not?

http://montrealgazette.com/news/world/opinion-canada-should-welcome-jews...

That's a particularly ignorant comment, alan. This country of yours didn't accept Jewish refugees from the Nazi genocide, and very few of the survivors after, for well-documented anti-semitic and later anti-communist motives. If French Jews feel unsafe - or want to immigrate here for whatever reason - you're going to connect them with the criminal state of Israel? How about retracting that, please.

I'm sorry. There was no intention to offend anyone. In hindsight, that was an inapropriate comment. I'll delete it.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Durrutix

6079_Smith_W wrote:

How does someone being arrested for free speech discount the concerns of those who are trying to speak up for it?

And dying is a good career move? Nice one, if a bit of a re-tread (Jesus, Buddy Holly, Tupac). If you could make it funny you might have the makings of a cartoonist.

What makes me smile is that these self-described clowns still have the power to make all the doubleplusgood duckspeakers froth at the mouth

I think the argument is that it is difficult to divorce speech from the social and political climate in which it occurs.  It's called context.  Thus, a cartoon denigrating Christian Conservatives in the US -- who wield great power -- is interpreted as "no big deal."  Conversely, a cartoon denigrating Muslims, who are currently being slaughtered en masse BY Western nations (and subject to persecution within Western nations, such as France) is regarded as offensive and indeed a contributing factor in the ongoing genocide.  

Tell me one thing: do you think anti-Semitic cartoons penned by Germans during the Holocaust were simply "free speech"?  Should Nazi propagandists have been tried at Nuremberg, as indeed they were?  

On a more basic level, the term "fair play" comes to mind.  It's not fair to kick a person when they are down.  

Now, if the issue is absolutist free speech, then we may be in agreement.  I do NOT support hate speech laws precisely because such laws are ripe for abuse.   We see this happening in France as we speak -- Muslims being arrested for "terror" speech.   Obviously these laws are going to be applied selectively, like all laws.  If I'm not mistaken, some radical Zionists have argued that emphatic criticism of Israel should be reclassified as "hate speech," even here in Canada.  Some hot dog vender in Halifax is being investigated for "hate speech" due to his social experiment.    

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” - Anatole France

If the answer to this attack was MORE FREE SPEECH we would be in good hands.  But that's not what's happening.  Predictably, the French state and other states are using the Hebdo incident to FURTHER LIMIT free speech.   And so it goes...

NDPP

 

I'm glad to know there are those that haven't fallen for Charlie Hebdo's toxic purple Koolaid. One is puzzled and disturbed by supposed 'leftists' and 'progressives' cheering on such obvious and ugly hate.

In the course of my own recent research into Charlie Hebdo, the experience of former member, Oliver Cyran was of great interest  and perhaps will be to others too

'Charlie Hebdo', Not Racist? If You Say So...by Oliver Cyran

http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net/charliehebdo/Charlie_Hebdo_article%...

 Dear Charb and Fabrice Nicolino,

...I was no longer part of Charlie Hebdo when the suicide planes made their impact on your editorial line, but the Islamophobic neurosis which bit by bit took over your pages from that day on affected me personally, as it ruined the memory of the good moments...

There had of course been some Francocentrism, as well as the editorials of Philippe Val. These latter were subject to a disturbing fixation, which worsened over the years, on the 'Arabic-Muslim world.' This was depicted as an ocean of barbarism threatening at any moment, to submerge that little island of high culture and democratic refinement that was, for him, Israel...

Scarcely had I walked out, wearied by the dictatorial behavior and corrupt promotion practices of the employer, than the Twin Towers fell and Caroline Fourest arrived in your editorial team. This double catastrophe set off a process of ideological reformatting which would drive off your former readers and attract new ones.

Little by little, the wholesale denunciation of 'beards', veiled women and their imaginary accomplices became a central axis of your journalistic and satirical productions. 'Investigations' began to appear which adopted the wildest rumours as fact, like the so-called infiltration of the League of Human Rights (LDH) or European Social Forum (FSE) by a horde of bloodthirsty Salafists.

The new impulse underway required the magazine to renounce the unruly attitude which had been its backbone up to then, and to form alliances with the most corrupt figures of the intellectual jet-set, such as BERNARD-HENRI LEVY or ANTOINE SFEIR, cosignatories in Charlie Hebdo of a grotesque 'Manifesto of the Twelve Against the New Islamic Totalitarianism.'

Whoever could not see themselves in a worldview which opposed the civilized (European) to obscurantists (Muslims) saw themselves quickly slapped with the label of 'useful idiots' or 'Islamo-leftists'.

I remember a full page article by Caroline Fourest which appeared on June 11, 2008. In it, she recounted her friendly meeting with the Dutch cartoonist Gregorius Nekschot, who had gotten some grief for representing his Muslim fellow-countrymen in a particularly hilarious way. Judge for yourself:

An imam dressed as Santa Claus buggering a goat, with the caption - 'We have to share our traditions.' Or an Arab, slumped on a couch and lost in thought: 'The Qur'an doesn't say if you have to do anything to be on the dole for 30 years.' Or even the 'Monument To the Slavery of White Indigenous Taxpayers': a Dutch person in foot shackles, carrying a black person on his back, arms crossed and sucking on a pacifier.

Foul racism? Oh come on, it's freedom of expression!

As Nekschot himself explained to Charlie Hebdo's readers, 'Muslims must understand that humor has been part of our traditions for centuries.' In a video posted on the Charlie Hebdo website at the end of 2011, we saw you, Charb, imitate the Islamic call to prayer, to the rapt giggles of your little buddies. What a hilarious new version of the Qur'anic recitations for your magazine's deadline.

What collective poison would you have had had to stew in to get to this point? From what psychological depth did you drag up the nerve to 'laugh' at a cartoon representing veiled women baring their buttocks as they bow in prayer towards 'Mecca-nelle' [ a pun on maquerelle, the madam of a brothel]. This pathetic stream of crap isn't even shameful; its stupidity embarrases you, even before it reveals your state of mind, your version of the world..."

 

swallow swallow's picture

Unionist wrote:

swallow wrote:

lagatta wrote:

Carlos Latuff has more than once resorted to antisemitic tropes. And no, I do NOT mean anti-Zionist: I've been involved in Palestine solidarity for decades, and was on the support staff for the boat to Gaza and against the latest Israeli assault this past summer. 

White power, franchement. Charlie collaborators have been attacking Le Pen and racist thugs for a very long time.

I think it is important to read the piece from ricochet. There is a deep cultural misunderstanding among the anglo left.

I wonder if anyone from the anglo left has responded in any way? 

Here's one response, from Shawn Whitney:

[url=http://redioactive.blogspot.ca/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-free-speech-islamop... Hebdo, Free Speech & Islamophobia: a response to Leigh Phillips[/url]

 

Thanks. Interesting reading. 

I'm curious from people on this threead about the cartoon he leads with:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/pe8pFRU.jpg?1[/img]

Do you find this offensive? It does not depict the Prophet, it is a wet kiss between men, but we should certainly support that sort of cartoon, shouldn't we? It also acknowledges that "traditional" Muslims can be gay - an important point. (Plus, it quotes, Jack Layton! Well, not really, but thwe words are close.) 

I do not, obviously, think Islam is any more homophobic than Christianity - both are, at times, and people in both traditions fight against homophobia. Ditto marks for other religions as appropriate. 

I'm also curious about the claims that Charlie Hebdo is a hate rag -- if so, then probably 90% of European media woudl also qualify for that tag. Do those putitng forward that claim have any interest in engaging with lagatta's posts, which situate Charl;ie Hebdo in the tradition of French leftism? 

Durrutix

@ Swallow

So edgy!  

It's garbage.  Seriously.  Like a drunken frat boy lighting his farts on fire.  

Have you ever viewed the works of a great satarist?  

Try this: 

http://www.abcgallery.com/D/daumier/daumier.html

6079_Smith_W

Durrutix wrote:

On a more basic level, the term "fair play" comes to mind.  It's not fair to kick a person when they are down. 

I'll let you in on a secret, Durrutix. The source of all comedy is pain.

And I agree with you about context. Sort of. I think anyone can form an opinion and criticize humour they think is unfair or in bad taste. But as for freedom? That is a legal matter, and many states, including our own, and France, have hate speech laws. If they are incorrectly applied? Well, maybe you should get out your pencil and draw some cartoons. That's all they were doing.

Perhaps I am dumb, but I haven't read anything here that convinces me the intent is denigration of Muslims. I read opinions that people here get an exception for reprinting so-called racist cartoons because of intent, but when it comes to the cartoonist who draws that cartoon to mock racists, that doesn't apply.

And if anyone is going to seriously push the idea that mocking religion is denigration, sorry. That would be the line that separates us. Not just because I think it is nonsense, but because I see it as dangerous. Again, while commentators are falling all over each other to equate these cartoonists with the Nazis, they are ignoring the right-wing Christians who are more than happy to push the same line. In short, what else is insulting Muslims? Equality for women? Access to abortion?

I asked upthread where the line is and I haven't received a good answer to that either. For me, I don't see any conflict at all, because freedom of speech in the form of mocking zealots, theocrats, and those who support oppressing others because god tells them to never did stop any reasonable person from practicing their religion.

And reasonable and progressive religious people generally get the point that this is not about them. In fact, if you can plenty of progressive Christians spreading blasphemy like this:

(note the upside down stars)

Some people have a problem with that kind of freedom in France? Sorry, but that is the point at which I say "too bad".

 

6079_Smith_W

Garbage?

It says love is stronger than hate. They are kissing. What is the problem?

 

Durrutix

@ 6079

"I'll let you in on a secret, Durrutix. The source of all comedy is pain."

Sadism and masochism can be funny, agreed.  But privileged people torturing their perceived "inferiors" is painfully UNfunny.   No great comedian that I'm aware of -- whether George Carlin or Bill Hicks or Richard Pryor -- based their routines around kicking people that were down. It's just gross.    

"And I agree with you about context. Sort of."

You should read more into this. 

"In short, what else is insulting Muslims? Equality for women? Access to abortion?"

This is classic bigotry.  You may or may not be aware that the most extremist Islamic sects have been funded by the West as a means of combatting "Arab secular nationalism."  John Foster Dulles spoke about this explicitly way back in the 50's.  

In any case, men and boys living under Islamic fundamentalist regimes don't have a great time either -- boys as young as six in Afghanistan are expected to work twelve hour days to support their family members (often after the father dies in an "air strike").  Not exactly an ideal scenario for either sex -- but if you're honestly concerned about these issues you should petition your government to stop supporting Islamic extremism and allow those awful "secular nationalist" regimes to come of age.   

"that kind of freedom in France."

Given recent events -- i.e. an ACTUAL crackdown on free speech in France in response to the C.H. attack -- this comment reads as satire.  Much better than Charlie H. BTW.  ;)  

 

Pondering

Is a cartoon satirizing the KKK the equivalent of a cartoon satirizing the riots that have occured in response to police shootings? 

If Iran had dropped a bomb on France that inadvertently hit the cartoonists would it be more defensible?

I don't agree with what I am about to quote because I think both are indefensible. The difference is that the 17 deaths in France have resulted in an outpouring of grief, condemnation and outrage whereas the countless bombs and drones aimed at innocent people in Arab countries is cause for intellectual discussion not marches by 3.7 million people.

I'm quoting it because I understand the emotion, outrage and condemnation it expresses

These observations of mine are not accompanied by any claim that they represent "the truth." I claim no special connection to the mind of God, to speak in the mob's terms. But I know this: it is obscene that the Hebdo murders should be singled out for an orgy of spluttering condemnation and outrage when the West, led by the monstrous U.S. Government with able support from most European nations, routinely murders more innocents in a single day (and, often, in less than a single day) than were murdered in Paris. The United States commits its murders across the globe -- from Afghanistan, to Iraq, to Syria, to Libya, on through other countries in Africa, and Asia, and in every corner of the world. England and, yes, France, and other countries provide significant aid in this unending campaign of terror.

I also know this: when the U.S. and its accomplices commit murderous acts of terrorism -- when the U.S. and its accomplices murder innocents -- with a regularity and on a scale that would be the envy of the most barbarous and bloodthirsty criminals in all of history, there will be resistance. "Nothing can justify the Charlie Hebdo murders." Nothing? This is the voice of the master, the imperialist, the slaveowner, the sadist: "We can bomb you, we can starve you, we can torture you, we can eviscerate you, we can visit every imaginable horror on you, we can utterly destroy you -- but you are forbidden to ever attack even one of us in any manner at all."

"Nothing can justify the Charlie Hebdo murders." The certainty is impregnable. Perhaps these robotic barbarians are indeed connected to the mind of God: they certainly have no minds of their own, at least of the human variety. I also recognize that when faced with the horrifying crimes of Empire, resistance will necessarily claim innocent lives. Even if the resisters did everything in their power to avoid the deaths of innocents, innocents will die in a war of this kind. The Empire could end the war, if it chose to. It does not.....

[D]o I "disapprove of" and "condemn" the violence itself? No, I don't. In this context, I don't know what such condemnation even means. Violence is a completely understandable response, particularly when every other means of amelioration and recourse has been systematically closed off. When you leave people no choice but to engage in violence, they'll engage in violence. You want to condemn someone as responsible? Look in the goddamn mirror, fuckhead.

History happens. Try to understand it. Otherwise, get the hell out of the way.

Pasted from <http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/these-crimes-will-never-be-purged-away.html

Charlie Hebdo didn't bring this on themselves, oligarchs and their overlords, did.

Charlie Hebdo itself is an ignorant pawn not a champion of free speech as they percieve themselves to be in their naivete. In life and in death they have served the interests of the powerful. 

6079_Smith_W
6079_Smith_W

I was thinking of banana peels, Durrutix. Where's your mind at? They are torturers now?

And guys have it hard too? I'll let someone with more experience respond to that one.

I should stop supporting secular nationalists. I appreciate the honesty. I think you know my answer.

 

 

 

Durrutix

@ Smith

"I was thinking of banana peels, Durrutix. Where's your mind at? They are torturers now?"

?

"And guys have it hard too? I'll let someone with more experience respond to that one."

No indeed.  Men and boys have it easy in Afghanistan, just like girls and women :P  

"I should stop supporting secular nationalism. I appreciate the honesty. I think you know my answer."

To re-iterate, you SHOULD support secular nationalism!  Please do.  In case you haven't noticed, the US and its allies (such as Canada) have consistently supported Islamic extremists in order to prevent what Foster Dulles described as "Arab secular nationalism."  This doesn't mean we have to  spread hate against Muslims as a group.  The vast majority of Muslims have no interest in fundamentalism -- unlike the US government and its Saudi ally.  

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Gee, no wonder I didn't get it. That's as roundabout as the fellow who thinks by voting NDP I am supporting Stalin's genocides.

As for the perceived insult, this wasn't exactly a Terry Jones.

300 people in Lahore Pakistan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/01/15/pakistani-protesters-demand-c...

Surprise surprise. Some Muslims are actually able to grasp the inscrutable western concept of satire, even if twitchy westerners feel the need to tip toe around their delicate sensibilities.

 

 

Durrutix

ikosmos wrote:

Durrutix wrote:

Amidst all the arguments about motivation and free speech it's worth keeping in mind that there is as yet no compelling evidence that the two individuals fingered for the attacks were even involved (claims of responsibility by "Al-Qaeda in Yemen," which may well be a pseudo operation, don't count).   It's also worth keeping in mind that even if the two individuals did carry out the attacks, they may have been guided/funded/trained by some intelligence agency.  This is really very common. 

Has anyone addressed this in a serious way? I mean, other than using the label "conspiracy theory" and ignoring it altogether?

The Charlie Hebdo Story Simply Doesn’t Wash

The PCR story covers most of the bases. It has been linked to already.

 

Don't expect anyone to answer this.  It cuts too close to the bone.  

Durrutix

@ Smith

Fair point, and indeed it needs to be stressed that out of approx. 1 billion Muslims, only two supposedly decided to avenge the prophet in response to the hate speech.  But you do realize that this narrative has been entirely crafted by the intelligence agencies?   What in "Allah's name" has made you so gullible that you automatically believe what your government tells you?   Has it ever occurred to you that the whole story may be bullshit? That's the issue we're dancing around.   

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Gee, if it really is just a fringe, and no one is being offended, then what is the problem?

The attackers are a western or MOSSAD false flag, now the whole notion that anyone would take offense to those pictures is a western plot too? In the first place, that claim is better directed at those who are criticizing  CH, not those of us who have no problem with it.

And in the second place, that degree of "the western conspiracy did it all" is getting ridiculously close to the "is reality real" meta arguments we get treated to.

Great fodder for a cartoon, not so great if you want it to be taken seriously.

 

Pondering

Zineb El Rhazoui's rage is highly personalized. She separates "Arab" and "Muslim" but combines accusing a publication of being racist as being the same as calling each individual contributor racist. She sees no connection between the bombs falling in the mid east and the attack on Charlie Hebdo. She frames the debate as one that is owned by the intelligensia and exists only on intellectual grounds. That is, the cartoons should only be evaluated by those who understand their nuances even though their impact is far from limited to that audience. As such how the North African marginlized youth of the banlieus interpret them or are impacted is immaterial to her. 

I am strangely reminded of a movie trailer with some guy doing a bunch of martial arts moves and the other guy pulls out a gun and shoots him. The gun wins by brute force against a body honed by rigorous practice and guided by formal knowledge so arguably superior. On the other hand superiority can be measured by success.

voice of the damned

Paul Craig Roberts wrote:

If Muslims are responsible for the attack on Charlie Hebdo, what Muslim goal did they achieve? None whatsoever. Indeed, the attack attributed to Muslims has ended French and European sympathy and support for Palestine and European opposition to more US wars against Muslims.

voice of the damned

^^ Paul Craig Roberts keeps pushing this line, and it's a complete non-sequiter. History is full of examples of politicians, activists etc doing stupid things that play right into their opponents' hands.

Durrutix

voice of the damned wrote:
^^ Paul Craig Roberts keeps pushing this line, and it's a complete non-sequiter. History is full of examples of politicians, activists etc doing stupid things that play right into their opponents' hands.

 

Derp derp.  

Durrutix

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Gee, if it really is just a fringe, and no one is being offended, then what is the problem?

The attackers are a western or MOSSAD false flag, now the whole notion that anyone would take offense to those pictures is a western plot too? In the first place, that claim is better directed at those who are criticizing  CH, not those of us who have no problem with it.

And in the second place, that degree of "the western conspiracy did it all" is getting ridiculously close to the "is reality real" meta arguments we get treated to.

Great fodder for a cartoon, not so great if you want it to be taken seriously.

 

 

Do you even realize that your line -- "not so great if you want it to be taken seriously" -- proves my point?   Consider the absolutely bizarre idea that you're apparently promoting -- false flags/provocateurs are so rare as to be considered marginal or unworthy of consideration, despite all evidence.   Have you ever studied international terrorism?  Do you honestly believe that the intelligence services -- with billions in black budgets -- should be exempt from consideration?  The idea is completely absurd. 

voice of the damned

As for Roberta argument that goes "How can you think the shooters were stupid, given the expertise with which they carried out the attacks?", that confuses technical expertise with politial smarts. The two things don't always go togehter, not by a long shot.

6079_Smith_W

@ Pondering

I don't see any connection between those bombs and the attack either, unless you mean that both were violent acts by extremists against those who are resisting extremism, or just happen to be in the way.

As for your attack on the intelligensia (also a tactic with a long tradition), I have made that same comparison as she did myself, and  I don't know if people are being deliberately obtuse or are really that blind.

Nice try with the image of the marginalized youth, but I don't think they are the ones, pounding tables or writing blogs denouncing heretics.

But we're all doing it for the kids, of course.

 

 

voice of the damned

"Derp derp" means "Democratic Republican"? Are you saying that because the two parties are idologically similar, they are deliberately taking falls to let the other one win? I peronally don't think that's true, since I think people who run for office want to win, regardless of his close they are ideologically to their opponents. Next paragraph...

voice of the damned

And, anyway, I was thinking more of Rene Levesque's complaint that the FLQ hindered the cause of Quebec sovereingty, by linking the PQ with terrorism and giving Trudeau a pretext to arrest sovereigntists. That doesn't prove the FLQ was a federalist-front, just a really misguided bunch of people.

6079_Smith_W

I think "derp derp" means slumming it on that font of political correctness and high art,  4chan. THey have a great Daumier gallery over there. Made me laugh, actually.

Pages

Topic locked