Canadian Jews condemn suppression of criticism of Israel

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Stockholm

How is it "ANTI-" if its saying something complementary? I'm not saying that it isn't still wrong - but the prefix "anti" means "against" and if you are saying something complementary - you are not "against" them - in fact in this case the misguided stereotype could actually lead to Jewish lawyers getting more business than they would otherwise get.

Fidel

Stockholm wrote:
How is it "ANTI-" if its saying something complementary? I'm not saying that it isn't still wrong - but the prefix "anti" means "against" and if you are saying something complementary - you are not "against" them - in fact in this case the misguided stereotype could actually lead to Jewish lawyers getting more business than they would otherwise get.

Do you mean complimentary, as in, "Hey, nice job those guys did on 9/11"?,

... or complementary, as in, "Hey, those guys who were trained in terrorism and guerilla warfare by the ISI, CIA and even SAS, did a nice job of things on 9/11"? 

Unionist

It's because we love Stockholm, and we know how much he enjoys his word games, that we don't call him names. But listen carefully. Those who call Jews allies and friends of mass murderers are antisemites. It doesn't make any difference whether they think "mass murderer" is a compliment or not.

Frank Dimant is an antisemite. Jews everywhere should bar their doors and reach for their pitchforks when they see him lurking in the street.

 

DrConway

Unionist wrote:

Jews are viewed as foreigners, with a foreign "homeland", by the Canadian government. It is the oldest anti-Jewish canard in the world - the strange wandering folk of "divided loyalties". 

They are portrayed as agents and allies of Israel, which gives rise to criminal assaults, vandalism, and arson against Jewish sites.

Do you actually believe this? 

Unionist

DrConway wrote:
Unionist wrote:

Jews are viewed as foreigners, with a foreign "homeland", by the Canadian government. It is the oldest anti-Jewish canard in the world - the strange wandering folk of "divided loyalties". 

They are portrayed as agents and allies of Israel, which gives rise to criminal assaults, vandalism, and arson against Jewish sites.

Do you actually believe this? 

Do I actually believe what?

That Jason Kenney and Stephen Harper portray Israel as being the homeland of the Jews?

Indeed, yes, I do.

That Harper boycotts Durban II saying that Durban I was "antisemitic", when in fact he means that there was lots of criticism of Israeli apartheid at Durban I?

Yes, I do.

That the identification by government and media and various religious nutbars of Jews with Israel in the public mind helps fuel antisemitic attacks and outrages?

Of course I do. Look at the arson attacks in Montréal against Jewish schools. Do you think the criminal perpetrators had something against Judaism? Or did they think they were striking a blow against Israel and Zionism?

So which part are you questioning my belief about, DrConway?

My parents, who survived the Nazi genocide, tried to teach me how to recognize who were the friends and who were the enemies of the Jews. When I see and hear Stephen Harper or George Bush talk, there can be no doubt in the world.

Lord Palmerston

Unionist wrote:
As for the Jews that hold exactly the same positions, we should rally Jews to reject those organizations and "leaders" who sully our name daily by their crimes.

No kidding.  There are now three ultrarightwing Jewish organizations which take identical positions on pretty much everything - the CJC, Bnai Brith and the JDL.  What about an organization for mainstream Jews, as ohara fondly calls them?

Max Bialystock

Although I'm totally secular and atheist and know very little about Judaism, I'd sign the statement.  I'm Jewish.  If I said I was Italian people would laugh.  An Italian named Max Bialystok?  I think not. Smile

DrConway

Unionist: In case it has escaped you, your claims that "Jews are viewed as foreigners, etc etc" smack of a hoary old siege mentality that simply has no place in Canada. Nobody I know, and nobody I've seen in the media, says anything like that about Jewish people.

*I* certainly don't believe that sort of thing about Jewish people. People used to say exactly the same sort of crap about Catholics - that they took orders from the Vatican, and that they represented an unsafe fifth column of sinister intent within society.

 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Here's Bernie Farber's response to Siddiqui's article.

 

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/605945

 

Quote:

Haroon Siddiqui has applauded the extremely small number of Canadian Jews who have broken from the mainstream of our community to attack Israel and, more specifically, Zionism itself.

 

But while he apparently lauds this tiny group of Canadian Jews who relish their role as anti-Zionists, he fails to explain to his readers one pertinent fact. The "combative declaration" issued last week by 160 Jewish Canadians includes the ongoing calumny of an alleged Jewish conspiracy. According to this fringe group, "... B'nai Brith and the Canadian Jewish Congress has led campaigns to silence criticism of Israel on university campuses, in labour unions and in other groups. Immigration Minister Jason Kenney and Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff unquestioningly echo the views of these particular Jewish organizations."

While Canadian Jewish Congress proudly wears its love and support for the Jewish state for all to see, the allegations that governments and society in general do our bidding is a stark reminder of historical poisons uttered in the past against Jews.

 

Bernie M. Farber, Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Jewish Congress

 

 

Unionist

DrConway wrote:

Unionist: In case it has escaped you, your claims that "Jews are viewed as foreigners, etc etc" smack of a hoary old siege mentality that simply has no place in Canada. Nobody I know, and nobody I've seen in the media, says anything like that about Jewish people.

Have you never heard anyone describe Israel as the Jewish homeland?

Have you never seen anyone suggest that some politicians side with Israel in order to secure Jewish votes or support?

I'm suggesting that those views are antisemitic, and that they call into question Jews' full membership within Canadian civil society. You may disagree with my interpretation. But you'll have to do better than that to convince me that Canada is a society which has overcome antisemitism (or racism or misogyny or homophobia or supremacy toward Aboriginal peoples etc.).

Quote:
*I* certainly don't believe that sort of thing about Jewish people.

Who exactly accused you of that? No need to plead not guilty.

Quote:
People used to say exactly the same sort of crap about Catholics - that they took orders from the Vatican, and that they represented an unsafe fifth column of sinister intent within society.

And Japanese and Ukrainians and Germans and Muslims and Sikhs... 

Lord Palmerston

Again, it's time for mainstream Jews to disassociate themselves with the ultrarightwing trio of CJC/Bnai Brith/JDL.   Thanks for clearing things up, Bernie.

contrarianna

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Here's Bernie Farber's response to Siddiqui's article.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/605945

 

Too many ironies:
From one of the pro-Israel organizations frequently given op-ed space we have a direct response to the suppressed statement by a substantial sampling of respected Jews --a statement which was not permitted to be seen in any any of the main papers op-ed spaces.
The alluded to statement about suppressed expression was suppressed.

Some of the tactics  of vilification used against it can be found in the suppressed statement--not viewable in the major media.

etc.

=====

It reminds me of the case of early Roman critics of Christianity whose remarks only survive in the very short quotes attacked in Christian writing-- the main criticisms were burned by the triumphing Christians. 

Such is the state of the megamedia today.

just one of the...

Did you hear that Unionist? It seems you have a "hoary old siege mentality" for simply perceiving that Jews are still viewed as foreigners! Your kind of keen perception "simply has no place in Canada!"

DrConway

Modern Canada is a secular society which has no need of stereotypes about Jewish people. That is why there is no place for such attitudes.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Well, I don't know about that. It's a nice thought. But describing Jews in Canada as "foreign" is way of the mark. And even marginalized is pushing the envelope. The great majority of white Jewish Canadians live lives that are largely indistinguishable from other white Canadians. Jewish families are highly integrated and established, not just among the general populace but also as ranking members of the business class, in politics, and the media.

They are no more ethnically marginalized that Italian Catholics.

That said, I agree with Unionists general point about the attempt to subject Jewish-Canadians to social framework where they are associated with Israel is a form of prejudice that exists in Canadian society, and one that definitely connects at some level with traditional European anti-semetism. After all, one merely has to go to the nearest Nazi blog to find real anti-semites using the exact same set of definitions that are used by Zionist extremists.

Both Zionists, and their backers, and the right wing racists share the conviction that Israel and Jews are inextricably one and the same thing, and that Israel speaks for all Jews as the Jewish state.

Unionist

Cueball wrote:

They are no more ethnically marginalized that Italian Catholics.

You know, Cueball, you're quite right that Jews in Canada today don't experience anything resembling the kind of "marginalization" that many other groups of Canadians do.

But don't you think that stereotyping is dangerous - because that's what Harper, Kenney, and Dimant do - and that's what Farber does by his creation of the "Mainstream Jew"?

And do you have any idea of how it felt, or what I faced on the street, growing up as a Jewish child of immigrants in a poor neighbourhood?

And just exactly how "marginalized" do you think German and French and Dutch Jews were before they were rounded up, overnight, and slaughtered - with limited resistance from their communities?

Having said that, I appreciate your point about the commonality of views between Zionists and Nazis that Jews don't fit in here among normal folks.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Unionist wrote:
Cueball wrote:

They are no more ethnically marginalized that Italian Catholics.

And do you have any idea of how it felt, or what I faced on the street, growing up as a Jewish child of immigrants in a poor neighbourhood?

Yes. Some sense of that actually. I personally was never poor. However my father was the son of shoemaker from Chicago. He used to tell me vivid stories of how my grandmother beat his head against a radiator. A vicious and brutalized life.

That said, children are pretty mean. We were awful to the native kid in my neighborhood.

Quote:
And just exactly how "marginalized" do you think German and French and Dutch Jews were before they were rounded up, overnight, and slaughtered - with limited resistance from their communities?

My sources are as good as yours, I guess. Were you there?

They were far more marginalized than Jewish Canadians, today. For one thing, as far as I can remember every one of those countries had specific laws restricting Jewish rights at one level or another, prior to the appearance of the NSDAP on the political landscape. France in particular had a very sorry track record in this regard, when Hitler was still wetting his diapers. European anti-semetism of the 1930's is a completely different kettle of fish then what we see today.

Back then the Canadian prime minister openly expressed antisemitic ideas, and this was indeed common for politicians of all stripes of the era. That is very far from the reality of today.

Unionist

France was the first country in the world that accorded Jews equal rights as citizens - under Napoleon Bonaparte. I'd be fascinated to know what "specific laws restricting Jewish rights at one level or another" you think existed in France.

Anyway, if you think antisemitism is a joking matter in Canada today (as per your previous radiator post), enjoy a hearty chuckle. I would have preferred had you opened your discussion in this thread by supporting the statement in the OP instead of attacking its style.

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

I have no idea why you are making fun of my personal family history. Its ridiculous in the context of your marked proclivity to parade yours. Perhaps if I had said that my father was a poor Jewish kid and the son of immigrant family, whose mother was so angry and frustrated by the conditions of working class life in Chicago that she viciously beat his head against a radiator, you might have taken a different tack. 

That said, I will get back to you about your misinformation about 19th century and early 20 century Europe later. For one thing, descrimination continued in various forms throughout Europe despite the "emancipation". Franz Joseph repealed parts of the 1848 law by 1850 in Germany, as one example. Further, social attitudes and exclusion, are as much a part of official prejudice as the written law. One has to go no further than the Dreyfuss Affair to see this plainly.

We don't see any Jewish officers of the Canadian military being put up on phoney charges of collaborating with the Taliban, now do we? The idea of that is indeed a "chuckle", and a "hearty" one at that.

Unionist

just one of the concerned wrote:
Did you hear that Unionist? It seems you have a "hoary old siege mentality" for simply perceiving that Jews are still viewed as foreigners! Your kind of keen perception "simply has no place in Canada!"

Yeah, funny! It must be nice to define "antisemitism" in some comic-book fashion and then declare: "No antisemitism here!"

Unionist

France, Cueball. France. And "laws", Cueball. You said "laws".

No kidding about Dreyfus. The whole point of the story was that a non-marginalized Jewish community, free and equal before the law, suddenly came face to face with the ugly xenophobia of the most reactionary elements of the ruling clique. Reminds me of Harper and Kenney.

Having said that, I apologize about the radiator comment. But I thought we were talking about systemic racism. I and my parents faced that not just from children, but in the corner grocery store, from neighbours, and later by smirks and comments in the workplace. Your attempts to deny it (which is what I was reacting to in case you,ve forgotten) are offensive in the extreme.

But because I love you and we're allies, I'm going to laugh it off. One day you will as well. But not today, I fear.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Legal disabilities against Jews in metropolitan France continued into the the mid 19th century. Algerian Jews were not awarded French citzenship until 1870. A year later official emancipation was finally instituted in Germany. Ok, that's a half generation before Hitler was wetting his baby clothes, not precisely when he was wetting his baby clothes.

That is enough prevarication on point. Laws are only part of the process of social integration. Social prejudice and indeed persecution continued despite laws: your entire case for "marginalization" rests on this point. Your entire case for the exceptional "marginalization" of Jews in Canada rest upon factors other than legal grounds. For if it didn't then Dr Conway's point about Canada being a secular society would stand on the law alone.

Jews as an ethnic group are one of the better established minorities within the spectrum of the white Canadian rulling class. That is not evidence of marginalization. It is the opposite.

So, no your arguement is not about law but about social prejudice which results in marginalization. Jews are no more marginalized in Canadian society, either in law, or in practice than Italian Canadian Catholics, and in fact, in comparison some other communities, emphasizing the plight of Jews in Canada as if it is exceptionally arduous or comparable to that of 19th Century Europe is spurious to the point that it makes a mockery of what we mean when we say "marginalized".

Unionist

Goodbye, Cueball.

Cueball Cueball's picture

Heh. Can't really argue this can you when the Aspers own Global TV and Can west? Marginalized as a community? My ass.

How many TV stations are owned by Native Canadians? How many by Black Canadians? Huh?

Unionist

There's a name for comments like yours. But I meant what I said. Even if you can't control what comes out of your mouth, and even if you feel the need to destroy important threads like this one, you're still an ally.

Cueball Cueball's picture

I would name it is an example of the real access to power and authority that some member of the Jewish community in Canada have access to based on established facts. What it establishes that there are few apparent extraordinary impediments for Jewish people in the mainstream of society.

What would you name it?

Upon what verifiable facts do you base your claim that Jews are particularly marginalized in comparisons to, say, Italian Canadian Catholics?

Unionist

I won't call you the names you deserve. But I will note that there are assholes in the U.S. (such as Obama himself in his pathetic renunciation of Rev. Wright) that say that racism against POC isn't endemic in Amerika. Why, a person of colour could even become President some day!

I still love you, Cueball. I forgive you, because I know that your confusion comes from a good place and the right sentiments. One could only wish sometimes for a little more openmindedness about others' oppression.

 

Unionist

MODERATORS: Close this thread for length, please, and kindly monitor any continuations for thread drift. This is an important topic. It's not easy for Jews to publicly condemn Israel, and I think it should be encouraged - not what is happening here.

Thank you.

 

Slumberjack

You know, the Olympics are still over a year away, and the running of the bull isn't one of the events.

Unionist

That's your only comment about this thread topic? What roused you from your slumber, jack?

Cueball Cueball's picture

Unionist wrote:

I won't call you the names you deserve. But I will note that there are assholes in the U.S. (such as Obama himself in his pathetic renunciation of Rev. Wright) that say that racism against POC isn't endemic in Amerika. Why, a person of colour could even become President some day!

If Mr. Obama wants me to provide the economic source data, and line up comparisons of job status, income, and ownership of corporations in the USA and cross-reference that with ethnicities, in order to show there is indeed evidence to show that white persons do indeed seem to have more access to power and wealth in American society, than non-white people, I will be happy to do so.

In the mean time, since it is just you and me, I was hoping you could provide similar evidence that establishes that Jewish Canadians are more marginalized than Italian Catholic Canadians.

Michelle

Long, and now off topic.

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