Trudeau says plane crash that killed 63 Canadians will be 'thoroughly investigated'

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NDPP
Trudeau says plane crash that killed 63 Canadians will be 'thoroughly investigated'

Trudeau Says Plane Crash That Killed 63 Canadians Will Be 'Thoroughly Investigated'

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-reaction-63-ukrainian-flight-1.5...

"Trudeau is expected to hold a news conference and take questions this afternoon on the crash - one of the deadliest disasters involving Canadians in decades. The cause of the crash, which happened just after the Boeing 737-800 aircraft took off from Tehran airport is still unknown..."

kropotkin1951

This reminds me of a past "mistake" that caused civilian passenger lives. The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky. Given our past history of war crimes and total disregard for civilian deaths I suspect it is most likely a US/NATO or Israeli strike. I hope no Canadian forces are implicated in the downing of a civilian plane.

The facts about the US shootdown of Flight 655

After the Vincennes shot down Flight 655, as Fred Kaplan noted in his Slate piece, Vice President George H. W. Bush responded by saying, “I will never apologize for the United States of America—I don’t care what the facts are.”

The facts were that the Aegis cruiser USS Vincennes, under the command of Captain Will Rogers III, had entered Iran’s territorial waters and opened fire on and sank two Iranian gunboats posing no threat to the American vessels. (Aboard another Iranian boat the Vincennes was passing by at the same moment Rogers gave the order to open fire, the crew was seen relaxing topside, as captured by the camera of US Navy journalists.)

At the time, as a Navy investigation later acknowledged, the Vincennes detected a plane ascending “on a normal commercial air flight plan profile” and squawking a transponder signal identifying itself as a commercial aircraft.

Aboard the Sides, with identical radar information as received aboard the Vincennes, Captain Carlson determined the plane was a “non-threat”.

Aboard the Vincennes, Lieutenant William Montford warned Captain Rogers that the plane was “possible COMAIR”, but Rogers nevertheless ostensibly convinced himself that his ship was under attack from an F-14 fighter plane and minutes later ordered it shot down.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/07/04/600167/US-Shootdown-Iranian-Ai...

NDPP

"Why did Ukraine withdraw an initial statement attributing the crash to engine failure? Ukraine's Ambassador to Canada says the original memo was 'outdated' as more info became available."

https://twitter.com/CTV_PowerPlay/status/1215036443116154880

NDPP

Iran Won't Hand Over Black Boxes to the US, As Boeing Offers Help After Ukrainian Airliner Crashes Near Tehran

https://on.rt.com/a8m5

"Iran will not provide Boeing with the black box of a Ukrainian 737 that crashed near Tehran, the country's civil aviation authority has said. An investigation is ongoing..."

 

Iranian-Canadian spokesman says PMJT should have come out more aggressively in his reaction to the crash and pushed for a multinational investigative endeavor to determine what happened.

https://twitter.com/CTV_PowerPlay/status/1215042091597910016

kropotkin1951

NDPP wrote:

Iran Won't Hand Over Black Boxes to the US, As Boeing Offers Help After Ukrainian Airliner Crashes Near Tehran

https://on.rt.com/a8m5

"Iran will not provide Boeing with the black box of a Ukrainian 737 that crashed near Tehran, the country's civil aviation authority has said. An investigation is ongoing..."

 

Iranian-Canadian spokesman says PMJT should have come out more aggressively in his reaction to the crash and pushed for a multinational investigative endeavor to determine what happened.

https://twitter.com/CTV_PowerPlay/status/1215042091597910016

Just more imperial demands presented as fairness. If a plane crashes in Canada are we about to let Iran investigate?

NDPP

Flight 752: A Canadian Tragedy

https://youtu.be/WClwgeTBAEI

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Iran Won't Hand Over Black Boxes to the US, As Boeing Offers Help After Ukrainian Airliner Crashes Near Tehran

https://on.rt.com/a8m5

"Iran will not provide Boeing with the black box of a Ukrainian 737 that crashed near Tehran, the country's civil aviation authority has said. An investigation is ongoing..."

 

Iranian-Canadian spokesman says PMJT should have come out more aggressively in his reaction to the crash and pushed for a multinational investigative endeavor to determine what happened.

https://twitter.com/CTV_PowerPlay/status/1215042091597910016

Just more imperial demands presented as fairness. If a plane crashes in Canada are we about to let Iran investigate?

Which Iranian company's planes do we use? How many countries recognize Iran as a global leader in plane crash investigation?

Asking for a friend. 

Sean in Ottawa

Also by the way Iran is saying they won't send the boxes to Boeing. While it is being reported that they won't send them to anyone this is not true. A couple years ago others said they did not want to trust Boeing and sent them to France.

That said the data is normally available at distance pictures included. The Ukrainians will work with Boeing and really cannot be shut out completely. 

Also in erms of how this happened it is silly to suggest the US is directly responsible. More likely they are indirectly responsible with the assasination (if it does not turn out to be mechanical with the plane).

There are many other possibilities including:

1) bird strike - cause engine malfunction and explosion after stress of take-off

2) drone go into engine (would not be surpirsing to have security drones in the area and someone make a mistake) - cause engine malfunction and explosion after stress of take-off

3) Anti-aircraft fire - the plane left in the dark at a time the Americans were thought to be likely to attack and when other aircraft were not flying (This would be more the fault of the airline and airport for allowing the plne to fly at that time)

4) Bomb on board - much less likely

5) Iran shooting down the plane as a diversion - many Iranians have raised this as they have done this sort of thing before twice and even years later admitted it. I think the chance of this is negligable and would provide no benefit

6) US shooting down the plane - even less liekey as it would require the US to be there and actually take a risk of being caught to get really no benefit

7) Some Boeing mechanicla or maintenance issue we are not aware of 

Nobody really gains out of this as the chance of getting caught outweighs any advantage. 

I grant that both countries are not above intentional action but that the risk / difficulty and advantage just does not merit an assumption that this happened without ANY evidence other than bias of the group to think either might like to do that. there is enough looney conspiracy theories floating on social media that they do not need to be added to in this way.

I think if this was a grave accident which seems to be the most sober possibility then

1) the US is to blame for the aggression in their strike on the IRG General if the accident is related to that (hard to believe it would not be)

2) the Airport is responsible for being open in those dark hours after the Iranian attack when they could have delayed all flights

3) The Ukrainian Airline is responsible for not delaying the flight

4) The pilot who by law has the last say to fly is responsible for flying

Impossible to know if any were coerced but that would be consider with other evidence.

This plane was supposed to leave at 5 AM and was delayed by an hour so it did not match a schedule the IRG defenders of the airspace would have had. Waiting an hour really begs the question of why not wait for daylight? (allows visual identification and a reduced chance of US operations) and the reasons for the delay -- was there an argument for the flight not to take off and this ignored or anyone pressured?

We don't have to get into the weeds with extreme theories of some covert US operation to kill civilians at great risk and cost without any apparent advantage becuase some of us thinks they are evil enough to do it without any known advantage. Let's have some evidence before we actually narrow down the possibilities list from the above. Perhaps there are even more possibilities even. as it is there are 7 possibilities and a covert attack by the US is not as likely as at least some of the others.

NDPP

63 Canadians Killed in An Airline Crash in Iran: Live Updates

https://www.macleans.ca/news/world/63-canadians-killed-in-an-airliner-cr...

Here is what's known so far...

kropotkin1951

Thanks Sean. We need a good conspiracy thread.

Iran has there own investigation agency and you think that they should just concede their sovereignty to the West. This in a week when US/NATO troops have committed a war crime against Iran and threatened more. But hey they can't be trusted not like our righteous allies. Send the black box to a US corporation they for sure will give us an honest answer after all its not like Boeing is part of the military industrial complex.

NDPP

Iran Dismisses Speculations Ukrainian Flight Taken Down By Missile

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/01/09/615707/Iran-ukraine-airplane-c...

"...According to the minister, Iranian technicians and experts from the American aerospace company Boeing will recover data from the black boxes in Iran. 'There are rumors that a terrorist attack, explosion or shooting at the plane may have caused the incident, but they are not true. Technical failure has been the cause of the incident.' Under international rules, responsibility for investigating the crash lies with Iran. Safety experts say airliner accidents rarely have a single cause and that it typically takes months of investigation to understand all the facts behind them..."

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky. Given our past history of war crimes and total disregard for civilian deaths I suspect it is most likely a US/NATO or Israeli strike. I hope no Canadian forces are implicated in the downing of a civilian plane.

What evidence is there that the plane was shot down by the U.S., Israel, or Canada?

NDPP

"The initial assessment of Western intelligence agencies is that a Ukrainian airliner which crashed in Iran on Wednesday was not brought down by a missile, said a Canadian security source to Reuters."

https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1215153715197480961

If one is determined to enter the shadowy realms of  premature and unfounded speculation, a preliminary question to ask is 'Cui Bono?' Who benefits? If one then compiles a list of imaginary possible perpetrators with motive, means and benefit, the government of Iran would probably not top that list.

My deepest condolences to all affected by this awful tragedy.

NDPP

The stories of the bereaved have also highlighted how much more difficult their lives have become trying to make necessary arrangements without having Canadian consular services to assist at this time. The severing of diplomatic relations with Iran under Stephen Harper serves no useful purpose and should not be allowed to continue. 

NDPP

'Illogical Rumors': Iran Responds to US Media Reports that Ukrainian Boeing Was Hit By Missile Over Tehran

https://on.rt.com/a8pt

"Citing anonymous Pentagon and intelligence officials, US media have reported that the Boeing 737 was 'highly likely' brought down by Iranian air defenses. A preliminary Iranian report suggested that the plane caught fire and tried to turn around before crashing. All 176 people on board were killed including 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians and 11 Ukrainians."

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Thanks Sean. We need a good conspiracy thread.

Iran has there own investigation agency and you think that they should just concede their sovereignty to the West. This in a week when US/NATO troops have committed a war crime against Iran and threatened more. But hey they can't be trusted not like our righteous allies. Send the black box to a US corporation they for sure will give us an honest answer after all its not like Boeing is part of the military industrial complex.

 

Thanks Kropotkin for being predictably the kind of asshat that flogs a stupid conspiracy theory about US action in Tehran and then as a flaming hypocrite criticizes a more realistic list of possibilities. Great to see that you have not changed and are still a passive aggressive jerk between being a directly aggressive jerk.

Worth noting that your completely ridiculous assertion of Americans Israel NATO or even Canada being a likely source of the missile is too nutty for anyone in the world to endorse - including the Iranians.

In the meantime due to your stupid agenda, conversations about the real issues may be sidelined -- A more relevent issue is can the Canadian government be trusted to demand from Ukraine answers about why this plane took off when it did instead of waiting for daylight? 

In the circumstances Iran may have made a tragic mistake but they were understandably dealing with a great deal and under threat. Ukraine had one job to do that day -- have that plane leave safely.

We can debate Kropotkin's trolling (he puts up a looney theory in order to then accuse others of conspiracy theories for trying to rebut it) or we could let the troll be a troll and discuss a more relevant thing in this thread about Trudeau's response. Will Canada ask for accountability from Ukraine????

Sean in Ottawa

DP 

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

This reminds me of a past "mistake" that caused civilian passenger lives. The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky. Given our past history of war crimes and total disregard for civilian deaths I suspect it is most likely a US/NATO or Israeli strike. I hope no Canadian forces are implicated in the downing of a civilian plane.

to put this up and then call my post a conspiracy is blatant trolling from a person who alternates between passive aggression, conspiracy theories, and blatant aggression himself

MegB

Sean, Kropotkin, less dick-swinging and more thoughtful analysis please. 

Sean in Ottawa

We know there were delays in the Ukrainian plane leaving. Canadians and Iranians have a right to know exactly what that delay was:

1) was it mechanical -- they have so far said no

2) was it a debate about safety of leaving? If so exactly who said what and was the pilot coerced?

The whole world seems worried about a coverup. I am too. But not the same one.

If Iran's defenders shot the jet by accident such a coverup could not last long. It could possibly be that a chain of coverups could be discovered  as each superior tries to delay knowledge of the incident to get his story straight, but it would not take long for the Iranian leadership to become aware of what happened and then it would not take long for such a thing to be indisputable to everyone else by the evidence. We have little reason to worry about either a low-level or high level coverup from Iran. It could also be that the leadership is buying time to know the full explanation.

It could be something other than a missile despite claims that signatures from missiles be launched at that time are being claimed. If it was a media or surveilance drone at the airport -- whose was it and why was it there? You can imagine the leadership shutting down conversation until they know.

Regardless of what actually happend, the take-off time is a major controversy. Whether or not it was shot down, it was at greater risk of being shot down at that hour rather than an hour later. 

If there is any coverup it is more likely to come from Ukraine which has an airline that could be sued in Canada and a much less excusable responsibility than the person who pulled a trigger if that is what happened. 

Ukraine also had only one thing to think about at that time and no real panic.

I worry that the reasons for the planes's delay will be covered up. It is unusual becuase the airline has said the last work done to the plane was Monday. If there were no maintenance issues then why was the plan late of schedule. It is possible had it been on schedule that it would have been a little safer. It is a fact that in daylight it would have been a lot safer. What exactly where the Ukrainian doing, talking about or debating in that hour - the last hour of the lives of all those people?

ETA Crossposted with Meg - but I was already providing analysis. Maybe some objectivity would be a good new year's resolution? Might earn back some respect.

Sean in Ottawa

MegB wrote:

Sean, Kropotkin, less dick-swinging and more thoughtful analysis please. 

That was what I was offering before and in response to Kropotkin's post. How is my list not analysis and not fair in response to a conspiracy theory that even ropes in Canadians? I have put up a lot of analysis in these threads including that I have shared from people close to me form Iranian's in Canada. I actually think if you were at all objective you would see that I have put up some of the most thoughtful analysis on this topic of anyone.  As usual your colours are showing.

Kropotkin's post and follow up is trolling and calling it out should be legitimate.

NDPP

I was unaware of the Ukrainian departure issue but am still not sure I understand the implications. Can you give me the gist in a nutshell?

MegB

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

MegB wrote:

Sean, Kropotkin, less dick-swinging and more thoughtful analysis please. 

That was what I was offering before and in response to Kropotkin's post. How is my list not analysis and not fair in response to a conspiracy theory that even ropes in Canadians? I have put up a lot of analysis in these threads including that I have shared from people close to me form Iranian's in Canada. I actually think if you were at all objective you would see that I have put up some of the most thoughtful analysis on this topic of anyone.  As usual your colours are showing.

Kropotkin's post and follow up is trolling and calling it out should be legitimate.

I'm not arguing that, it's the tone. I've watched you going after each other in more threads than this one and it needs to stop. Nobody's saying you have to agree with each other or even like each other, but the tone of your disagreements needs to be more civil. And we both know this isn't your first rodeo. I'm recalling your epic battles with Pondering. The two of you managed to work things out. Maybe you and Kropotkin can do the same.

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

I'm unaware of the Ukrainian departure element and am still not sure I understand the implications. Can you give me the gist in a nutshell?

No problem:

Plane was due for departure at about 5 AM.

It sat on Tarmac for an hour -- many people on it posting to the Iranian Newcomer group during this time that they did not know what the delay was. No reports on activity around the plane so it looked more to be some discussion or issue unrelated to the plane. Most on the plane were concerned due to connecting flights.

The the plane took off at last at 6:18. It was still dark. Videos of the crash show this.

Meanwhile all the news media particularly Al Jazeera (the one I was looking at) was speaking about how the US always does attacks in the early morning hours before daylight so the danger period for the city was 4 AM to 7 AM -- or so. This had to be known to Ukraine. It is hard to know if the delay was for this reason and either due to an argument about leaving or due to someone who thought it was already safe when it was not yet light. Perhaps it was some other reason but no activity around the plane suggests externalities.

By 7 AM local time, Iran had said that its action was over. Trump did not tweet out his all is well tweet before 9:45 pm Eastern. I think that is 10:45 AM Tehran time. You could argue that while the Americans were still silent a night time take-off was criminally negligent.

Does that help?

Sean in Ottawa

MegB wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

MegB wrote:

Sean, Kropotkin, less dick-swinging and more thoughtful analysis please. 

That was what I was offering before and in response to Kropotkin's post. How is my list not analysis and not fair in response to a conspiracy theory that even ropes in Canadians? I have put up a lot of analysis in these threads including that I have shared from people close to me form Iranian's in Canada. I actually think if you were at all objective you would see that I have put up some of the most thoughtful analysis on this topic of anyone.  As usual your colours are showing.

Kropotkin's post and follow up is trolling and calling it out should be legitimate.

I'm not arguing that, it's the tone. I've watched you going after each other in more threads than this one and it needs to stop. Nobody's saying you have to agree with each other or even like each other, but the tone of your disagreements needs to be more civil. And we both know this isn't your first rodeo. I'm recalling your epic battles with Pondering. The two of you managed to work things out. Maybe you and Kropotkin can do the same.

Asking both of us to concentrate on analysis seems one sided when that was what I was doing even though I was angry in response to a person I am fed up with who has persistently attacked me to the point I abandoned this place for months. This was not equal here. You may not like the tone but consistently it is about him responding to something I said that has nothing to do with him that he did not like and me responsing to an attack on me.

As for Pondering - this was a battle that included a lot of people and continued on throughout another time that I stepped away from the board. I remember you not being able to be objective then either. That also made it worse.

The problem here is that you are rarely fair when it comes to these - including ignoring Islamaphobia presumably because I was the one who complained (India thread). Yes, I piss you off but it is in reaction to your lack of fairness or objectivity. I react more to other people becuase if you step in at all it is not to be fair but to take the other sides. I know that the only person that will stand up for an attack on me is myself and I might be attacked by you in the process as has happened in the past. So I do not trust you to treat me the same as others. I disliked your dishonesty in the India thread where you pretended that you would respond when I had sent two messages 3 months before that you ignored. You want more respect - well that works both ways. I did not start disliking your moderation for no reason.

Here is the thing: try to act like a moderator that treats the issue rather than changing how you bechave nased on who is involved. Stop liniking responses to previous issues that you now say you have seen but ignored. It is true when you ignore a conflit long enough you won't know who started it. The answer to that is when people approach you stop ignoring those messages. Maybe ration them to one a month. Surely you have time to answer one message if needed a month from a pertson here? How many is that? How about once a year? Whining about lack of time when you go years at a time not responding to legitimate concerns that are put rarely is not an excuse to tell people take it off line and you will respond.

How about you respond to the people on the board you ignore when you are not criticizing them and try to do your side of repairing your relationships with them. Are you not supposed to act like the bigger person in your role?

Maybe all relationships here could be reset - if you are a leader do your part. Don't let people here believe that you step in for some and not others and that they will take any abuse and only have the choice between taking it or dishing it back.

If you responded to PMs then this would not be in a thread.

MegB

When it comes to humans, objectivity is a myth. We all perceive things through the filters of our experiences and opinions and I am certainly no different. But I do strongly object to you calling me unfair, that I step in for some and not for others. When I step in it's usually because I've been asked to. If I'm not asked and I miss a dispute because I didn't see it (hundreds of threads, thousands of posts, very little time), I can see how it could be interpreted as favouritism to some. But it's not. I don't care who is right or wrong, I care about how you treat each other. I care about keeping spammers and trolls off the board. I care about moving conversations forward and not having them derailed by endless, pointless bickering.

I have never seen a group of people so eager to point the finger at each other, rationalize bad behaviour with the childish 'he started it' excuse. And there is a difference between criticism of Islam and Islamophobia just like there is a big difference between criticism of Zionism and anti-Semitism. Shit, if the left weren't so constantly eating their young, as so many of you do on this board, we'd actually achieve something significant.

So instead of bitching about my inadequate moderation, try setting an example. Disagree and critique others with a modicum of decorum, don't rise to the bait, don't feed the trolls. 

NDPP

@ Sean - thnx.

"Breaking: From Canada Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. 'We have intelligence from multiple sources...the evidence indicates that the [Ukrainian] plane was shot down by an Iranian surface to air missile. This may well have been unintentional."

https://twitter.com/Elizabeth_McLau/status/1215358773667287045

 

Trudeau Says Evidence Indicates Iranian Missile Brought Down Ukrainian Flight

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/champagne-iran-plane-crash-1.5420398

"US officials have shared intelligence with Canada to back up their view Flight 752 was shot down..."

An appalling lie concocted to justify further aggression. Don't fall for it. Trudeau's 'weapons of mass destruction' moment in history.

NDPP

Pentagon Accuses Iran of Shooting Down A Ukrainian Plane But Its Evidence is Flimsy

https://t.co/HsF1yBwr54

"The Pentagon is accusing Iran's air defense of shooting down the Ukrainian plane that crashed yesterday near Tehran. The Pentagon says that it was an accidental incident. But the evidence on which the claim is based is is flimsy..."

kropotkin1951

 

As a Canadian I also want to know what "evidence" our Prime Minister has to make this accusation. I also hope the Canadian TSB will send a team to monitor the investigation by the Iranian authorities.

Iran has dismissed claims that the Ukrainian Boeing 737 that crashed near Tehran was hit by a missile as “psychological warfare,” calling on countries that lost citizens in the crash to send representatives to join its probe.

"All these reports are a psychological warfare against Iran,” government spokesman Ali Rabiei said on Thursday. “All those countries whose citizens were aboard the plane can send representatives and we urge Boeing to send its representative to join the process of investigating the black box.”

Meanwhile, foreign ministry spokesman Abbas Mousavi has called on Canadian PM Justin Trudeau to share the intelligence he has claimed to have from “multiple sources” that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile, state media report.

https://www.rt.com/news/477872-iran-plane-psychological-warfare/

kropotkin1951

I think if this was a grave accident which seems to be the most sober possibility then

1) the US is to blame for the aggression in their strike on the IRG General if the accident is related to that (hard to believe it would not be)

2) the Airport is responsible for being open in those dark hours after the Iranian attack when they could have delayed all flights

3) The Ukrainian Airline is responsible for not delaying the flight

4) The pilot who by law has the last say to fly is responsible for flying

Impossible to know if any were coerced but that would be consider with other evidence.

All those people are somewhat to blame but the individuals especially the parents on that plane had the same information as the rest of the world. I would never have put my children in that kind of danger for a family gathering of any kind. At the end of the day the responsible parties are all the NATO foreigners in that area of the world armed to the teeth because they want the oil. In the final analysis these people died because of Western oil companies. The same actors that have been fucking with the Iranian people since the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC) started in 1908. Pity the people of the world that have the misfortune of being born on top of imperial oil reserves.

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Iran Won't Hand Over Black Boxes to the US, As Boeing Offers Help After Ukrainian Airliner Crashes Near Tehran

https://on.rt.com/a8m5

"Iran will not provide Boeing with the black box of a Ukrainian 737 that crashed near Tehran, the country's civil aviation authority has said. An investigation is ongoing..."

 

Iranian-Canadian spokesman says PMJT should have come out more aggressively in his reaction to the crash and pushed for a multinational investigative endeavor to determine what happened.

https://twitter.com/CTV_PowerPlay/status/1215042091597910016

Just more imperial demands presented as fairness. If a plane crashes in Canada are we about to let Iran investigate?

Which Iranian company's planes do we use? How many countries recognize Iran as a global leader in plane crash investigation?

Asking for a friend. 

Sean, this may not have been intentional but the above comes across as somewhat insulting. You should let your friend to their own posting. 

What difference does it make that the US has "experts" on anything when they are sponsors of terrorism and lie as a matter of principle and attack other countries assasinating people at will? 

There would be riots in the streets if Iran turned over the blackbox to Americans. I am sure there are many experts able to decipher what is on it. 

It makes absolutely no sense for Iran to hand anything over. Iran is showing great restraint. Regardless of what took the plane down Trump is the cause of any fallout from it and America is responsible for immense bloodshed throughout the world which isn't to say that Canada is innocent nor Iran for that matter. Just there is no sensible reason I can think of for Iran to hand over the blackbox at this time. 

NDPP

Now More Than Ever, Canada Needs To Resume Diplomatic Ties With Iran

http://dlvr.it/RMlbGd

"Dealing with these events is even more challenging when Canada has no diplomatic presence on the ground or even diplomatic relations with the country where the tragedy occurred. That is the case with Iran. It would be a welcome outcome if this incident provided new impetus to the effort to resume diplomatic ties and a return to Tehran in due course..."

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky.

 

 

 

It looks like the Iranian government shot it out of the sky.

 

 

 

 

 

NDPP

The Lie To End All Truths And The New Evidence

https://twitter.com/bears_with/status/1215392477357756418

"Replay of MH17 lies starts for UIA-752, Trump, Trudeau contradict US intelligence evidence of previous 36 hours. Canadian demand for crash site access replays cover-story in July 2014 for NATO invasion of eastern Ukraine. Gorilla Radio interview on air to follow."

 

Trump & Trudeau in Liar! Liar! (and audio)

https://twitter.com/bears_with/status/1215397950567993350

"Trump, Trudeau to find, er fake crash-site, black box, voice tape evidence for next step in war against all enemies. Listen to Gorilla Radio, from Min. 32..."

kropotkin1951

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky.

It looks like the Iranian government shot it out of the sky.

Did Trump tweet that to you?

cco

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

It sat on Tarmac for an hour -- many people on it posting to the Iranian Newcomer group during this time that they did not know what the delay was. No reports on activity around the plane so it looked more to be some discussion or issue unrelated to the plane. Most on the plane were concerned due to connecting flights.

The the plane took off at last at 6:18. It was still dark. Videos of the crash show this.

Meanwhile all the news media particularly Al Jazeera (the one I was looking at) was speaking about how the US always does attacks in the early morning hours before daylight so the danger period for the city was 4 AM to 7 AM -- or so. This had to be known to Ukraine. It is hard to know if the delay was for this reason and either due to an argument about leaving or due to someone who thought it was already safe when it was not yet light. Perhaps it was some other reason but no activity around the plane suggests externalities.

Every detail of this will no doubt be picked over and speculated about for years to come, but random flight delays, especially in the developing world, are incredibly common and not necessarily a sign of high-level malfeasance. The departure time of the flight on a given day would be up to Tehran's air traffic control, not orders from Kiev – Ukrainian authorities could revoke its landing clearance altogether, but that's pretty rare. It took a lot of pressure for Garneau to even ground the 737 MAX.

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky.

It looks like the Iranian government shot it out of the sky.

Did Trump tweet that to you?

No. The media is reporting that Iran likely shot down the plane.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-plane-crash-investigation/index.html

kropotkin1951

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky.

It looks like the Iranian government shot it out of the sky.

Did Trump tweet that to you?

No. The media is reporting that Iran likely shot down the plane.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-plane-crash-investigation/index.html

CNN is no more credible a source than a Trump tweet.

JKR

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The people who need to be vilified are whom ever shot it out of the sky.

It looks like the Iranian government shot it out of the sky.

Did Trump tweet that to you?

No. The media is reporting that Iran likely shot down the plane.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/iran-plane-crash-investigation/index.html

CNN is no more credible a source than a Trump tweet.

Many other media sources are reporting the same as CNN.

NDPP

Iran Urges All Parties Involved To Contribute To Ukrainian Plane Crash Probe

https://presstv.com/Detail/2020/01/09/615786/Iran-urges-all-parties-invo...

"Iran has urged all parties involved, including American multinational aviation corporation Boeing, to contribute to a probe into a Ukrainian plane crash near the capital Tehran that killed all 176 people aboard. Ali Rabei, spokesman for the Iranian administration roundly dismissed the Pentagon's allegations that missiles downed the Ukrainian jet, saying, 'No one will assume responsibility for such a big lie once it is known that the claim had been fraudulent. It is unfortunate that the psychological operations of the US government, and those supporting it knowingly and unknowingly, are adding insult to the injury of the bereaved families and victimizing them for certain goals by propagating such fallacies'..."

Sean in Ottawa

MegB wrote:

When it comes to humans, objectivity is a myth. We all perceive things through the filters of our experiences and opinions and I am certainly no different. But I do strongly object to you calling me unfair, that I step in for some and not for others. When I step in it's usually because I've been asked to. If I'm not asked and I miss a dispute because I didn't see it (hundreds of threads, thousands of posts, very little time), I can see how it could be interpreted as favouritism to some. But it's not. I don't care who is right or wrong, I care about how you treat each other. I care about keeping spammers and trolls off the board. I care about moving conversations forward and not having them derailed by endless, pointless bickering.

I have never seen a group of people so eager to point the finger at each other, rationalize bad behaviour with the childish 'he started it' excuse. And there is a difference between criticism of Islam and Islamophobia just like there is a big difference between criticism of Zionism and anti-Semitism. Shit, if the left weren't so constantly eating their young, as so many of you do on this board, we'd actually achieve something significant.

So instead of bitching about my inadequate moderation, try setting an example. Disagree and critique others with a modicum of decorum, don't rise to the bait, don't feed the trolls. 

Why do you talk about not seeing things when it is messages sent directly to you that you ignore?

Also the messages sent were abusive to people here. We have since moved on but not without the harm of you ignoring messages. There was no excuse for what you ignored and I do not feel like I should be lectured on that by a person whose job it was to answer messages to do soemthing. Yep. Looks way impartial when you ignore messages for three months. Sorry but you have to eat some of this if you want anyone else to. I had given up on you until your comments months later in the India thread which brought all this back as you criticized me saying that I had not sent a message when I had.

Sean in Ottawa

There is this as well.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/video-appears-to-show-moment-ukrainian-plane-was-hit-by-missile-1.4760822

Look closely is pretty clear soemthing hit it.

Also there are reports of a second plane thatwas nearby and say it from above. I do not know which plane that was as we know most flights were cleared.

Canadian general says that the SAMs have a setting where they can go with proximity and an error in setting it could automate an attack. 

Certainly there are more videos coming from Iran as many have cell phones.

Sean in Ottawa

BTW interesting to see Trudeau came to the vigil I was at on Parliament Hill. I know it was close but it was certainly very cold. Extremely sad the loss of life and reactions to it. The crowd seemed bigger than it looked on TV.

kropotkin1951

Hurtin Albertan

If it was mechanical failure it seems extremely unusual that no mayday was sent from the aircraft.  All the Boeing 737 models have a 2 person crew in the cockpit, and shortly after takeoff both pilots would be at the controls.  Pretty sure one of the first priorities for one of them would have been to declare an emergency and get clearance from air traffic control to return to the airport they just took off from.  I can't think of any "normal" mechanical issues that would cause a Boeing 737 to come apart in the air like PS752 did.

Even if both engines exploded at the same time from some mechanical issue the aircraft shouldn't have caught fire, at least from what I can find from some googling

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737ng-engine-casing-southwest-accident-ntsb-2019-11

Seems like there was a large debris field consistent with the aircraft coming apart while in the air, and the lack of any distress call is unusual, aside from that it's all largely speculation in the absence of evidence.

I doubt any nationality will be releasing the satellite footage from their surveillance satellites, which I am quite sure there are many over Iran.  The footage would reveal too much to other nations about the capabilities of the surveillance satellites.  Which is unfortunate because I'm pretty sure the surveillance satellites would show the world exactly what happened that morning one way or the other.

Hopefully the investigation will be allowed to proceed without political interference but I have serious doubts about that.

kropotkin1951

Like most people following the story, I am in awe that the Iranians were able to make 22 precision missile strikes on US AFB's in Iraq. I sincerely hope they have demonstrated a sufficient deterrent capability to bring some peace to the area for a while.

Then I am expected to believe a Canadian General's assessment that their systems fail so often they might have accidentally shot down a civilian airliner over the capital. If this was a trailer for a movie I would laugh at how ludicrous the premise was.

NDPP

Canada's Trudeau Claims 'Itel From Multiple Sources', Points At Iran Shooting Down Ukrainian Boeing Over Tehran

https://on.rt.com/a8q2

"Canadian PM Justin Trudeau has come out as the first world leader to directly accuse Iran of the 'unintentional' shooting down of Ukrainian International Airlines' flight 752 near Tehran, citing intelligence reports. 'We have intelligence from multiple sources,' Trudeau said on Thursday. 'The intelligence indicates that the plane was shot down by an Iranian surface-to-air missile. This may well have been unintentional.'

His comments echo those of Donald Trump, who said earlier in the day he had 'suspicions' that 'somebody could have made a mistake,' without elaborating. Iranian civil aviation authorities, however, have ruled out the theory, saying no missile debris was found at the crash site. 'Scientifically, it is impossible that a missile hit the Ukrainian plane, and such rumours are illogical,' Ali Abedzadeh, head of Iran's Civil Aviation Organization, said on Thursday..."

NDPP

Iran Denies That Missile Brought Down Ukrainian Airliner Despite Canadian, US Assertions

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-missile-iran-1.5420736

"Iran denied on Thursday that a Ukraine International Airlines plane that crashed near Tehran had been hit by a missile, while Canada and the United States said they have evidence indicating that Flight PS752 was shot down by an Iranian missile. Iran in response to Trudeau's statement, called on Canada to share its information with Tehran, foreign affairs spokesperson Abbas Mousavi was quoted as saying by state news agency IRNA.

'Investigation of the cause of the Ukrainian plane crash have launched based on international standards and ICAO regulations; Ukraine and Boeing have been invited - as the owner and the manufacturer - to take part in it. We appreciate any country who can provide info to the Committee in charge.' Iran also invited the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) to take part in its investigation into the crash, and the agency has agreed to assign an investigator, an Iranian official said..."

NDPP

LIVE Updates - Investigation into Ukrainian Plane Crash in Iran

https://sptnkne.ws/AW2A

"Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelensky has urged people to refrain from manipulation, speculation, conspiracy theories, hasty evaluations, and unverified versions regarding the Boeing 737-800 that crashed near the Iranian capital Tehran, shortly after takeoff on Wednesday.

'This is not a topic for hype, likes in social networks, sensationalism and conspiracy theories. We need patience, endurance and wisdom,' stated Zelensky, who earlier declared 9 January a day of mourning in Ukraine. 'I had a telephone call with Hassan Rouhani. I am grateful to Iran for its willingness to collaborate and provide prompt access to all necessary data to Ukrainian specialists. Deep condolences to the families and relatives of all Iranians who died in the airplane crash in Tehran,' Zelensky wrote on twitter..."

josh

Why the hell was a commercial airliner even taking off that evening with missiles flying and tensions high.

Unless the video is fake, it looks like it was hit by a SAM by accident.  What caused the response is the issue.

lagatta4

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