Trudeau says plane crash that killed 63 Canadians will be 'thoroughly investigated'

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Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

I do not think he is. People in one context often perceive things differently than those in another especially when they are used to that. That would be like saying people in California or BC (where he is) who are less concerned about earthquake are at fault if they get hurt. Nothing he has said before suggests victim blaming either. But I do think that people who were responsible would have sought assurances and presume that they got them. Somehow those assurances turned out to be incorrect to say the least.

Sean in Ottawa

The video at the bottom of this link addresses the question of who was flying. It seems there were 12 commercial flights that morning although they were earlier (nobody flew after). These included Luftansa, Qatar Airways and Turkish Airlines -- the rest could have been domestic. It is possible that they left much earler and out of the early morning panic time.

No answers but the same questions we are asking and the fact that an analyst said they could have closed the airspace

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/iran-protest-tehran-jetliner-shootdown-1.5423804

NDPP

Trudeau Outlines 'First Steps' on Long Road to Justice for UIA Flight PS752 Victims

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-outlines-steps-forward-justice-...

'We're focusing on what the families most need and that is answers and access,' PM says

"For Iran, Trudeau laid out his expectations. A full and complete investigation 'must' be conducted. 'Full clarity' is needed. Families 'deserve' closure. It is 'absolutely necessary' that Canada participate in the investigation and Canadian officials 'expect' the full cooperation of Iranian authorities. Iranian President Hassan Rouhani had replied with a 'commitment to collaborate'.

But focusing on the needs of those most directly affected is also an important signpost for a Canadian government that will be held responsible for properly doing everything in its power to achieve accountability and justice. It might be emotionally satisfying to quickly threaten the Iranian regime, but words and actions are only truly useful is they advance the cause of justice for those who died and those who are left behind.

Asked again to account for exactly what sequence of events can be said to have led to this week's disaster - the provocative question of whether the targeted killing of Iranian general Qassem Soleimani by the United States played a role in this tragedy - Trudeau again declined.

In the case of the Iranian flight that was shot down by American forces in 1988, it took eight years for compensation to be agreed upon and delivered. The real details of what happened were slowly uncovered. Iran's admission on Friday night - perhaps compelled by the overwhelming evidence of a missile attack, including video images - might suggest a quicker resolution, at least at the level of official accountability and restitution. But much remains to be seen and nothing can be taken for granted..."

 

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Trudeau Outlines 'First Steps' on Long Road to Justice for UIA Flight PS752 Victims

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-outlines-steps-forward-justice-...

'We're focusing on what the families most need and that is answers and access,' PM says

"For Iran, Trudeau laid out his expectations. A full and complete investigation 'must' be conducted. 'Full clarity' is needed. Families 'deserve' closure. It is 'absolutely necessary' that Canada participate in the investigation and Canadian officials 'expect' the full cooperation of Iranian authorities. Iranian President Hassan Rouhani had replied with a 'commitment to collaborate'.

But focusing on the needs of those most directly affected is also an important signpost for a Canadian government that will be held responsible for properly doing everything in its power to achieve accountability and justice. It might be emotionally satisfying to quickly threaten the Iranian regime, but words and actions are only truly useful is they advance the cause of justice for those who died and those who are left behind.

Asked again to account for exactly what sequence of events can be said to have led to this week's disaster - the provocative question of whether the targeted killing of Iranian general Qassem Soleimani by the United States played a role in this tragedy - Trudeau again declined.

In the case of the Iranian flight that was shot down by American forces in 1988, it took eight years for compensation to be agreed upon and delivered. The real details of what happened were slowly uncovered. Iran's admission on Friday night - perhaps compelled by the overwhelming evidence of a missile attack, including video images - might suggest a quicker resolution, at least at the level of official accountability and restitution. But much remains to be seen and nothing can be taken for granted..."

 

A bizarre article:

Trudeau did not decline -- he said that the US action was contributory. He went further than many expected on this. He did not attack the US but he had an opportunity to defend them (we are presumed to be allies) and he declined to do that while also saying that their actions contributed to the deaths. This spoke volumes. I think that was significant and the global media printed articles about this becuase it was big news.

The next part is stranger still. The US in 1988 faced different pressure regarding compensation than the Iranians. The US government is somewhat politically accountable to national opinion. The Iranian government not so much. The US government cannot claim not to have money. The Iranian government will never agree to pay anything significant becuase they will state that they do not have the money. They are right now not fully paying workers for the government who are loyal to the regime becuase they lack the cash - or oil field workers they need. These are people who often got their jobs via corruption. The IRG and the proxies are still getting money but the Regime believes theya re what is defending it. Don't think that victims will get money before Iranian oil workers now going without some of their wages.

The political reality in Iran is also that the present political government is doomed. As you may know there are two branches to the government

1) the supreme leader who has the revolutionary guard apparatus loyal to him, he chooses who can stand for election and he represents a hard line. The Guard also control much of the economy and state.

2) The political government that is elected from the limited choices allowed by the Supreme leader.

At present this government represents the more moderate reformist side (those of them that the Supreme leader allowed to stand for election).

Most people are fed up with the charade and many have vowed not to participate in the next election. Not becuase of a shift of opinion but becuase of an expected boycott, the present government is expected to be replaced with a hard line government in a few weeks. Many have said to me that the Supreme leader only allows moderates to run who are so crappy as to not attract too many votes. Once in a while a better one slips through but only moderately better and with little real power.

The idea that this government would consider compensation in the context of crippling sanctions is remarkable. Justice they promise may be the death of whomever is the lowest level patsy that they can find. If they want to remove a higher official for other reasons they might implicate that person.

Don't expect IRG commanders to be held responsible. Don't expect that the Airport authority will be held responsible or the Civilian Air Authority.

Expect that the shitty compensation being offered by Ukraine ($8000 each) is the most that they will get unless the govenrment of Canada on compassionate ground steps in or the public funds something. The only other possibility is a lawsuit against the airline.

Sean in Ottawa

Meanwhile it is morning in Iran and the crackdown has begun. Students are facing massive security, interrogations and arrest.

Nobody here should defend this regime. Not one bit.

We do not need to give them any ground while we criticize the US behaviour.

NDPP

re: above

Sean, I heard much the same from some here about Gadaffi/Libya, Assad/Syria, Ukraine/Russia, HongKong/ China, Israel/Palestine, Assange/Manning, Brexit/EU etc etc. etc. Trust me, I'm incorrigible, a lost cause and will continue to post things you don't like or agree with. You and everyone else can express whatever you wish in your own little comment boxes, I will do the same and the more the merrier.

Sean's comment from the Ukraine thread is a worthy one and belongs here for further comment and discussion. My response is directly below. If anyone else can help please advise.

Please Talk About This...

https://rabble.ca/comment/5666601#comment-5666601

Another critical developing story is that Ukraine is offering $8,000 to every person on the downed flight in Iran...

josh

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

josh

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Meanwhile it is morning in Iran and the crackdown has begun. Students are facing massive security, interrogations and arrest.

Nobody here should defend this regime. Not one bit.

We do not need to give them any ground while we criticize the US behaviour.

Agree.

NDPP

josh wrote:

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

NDPP wrote:

Yes, I share the opinon that the airport should have been closed and/or flights rescheduled given the very real possibility of an imminent American attack, and look forward to the eventual report and analysis by the relevent ICAO authority. But for now and for what it's worth this twitter thread suggests some possibilities.

"Iran's IRGC Aerospace Force Commander says that the air defense system had identified the plane as a 'cruise missile' in a 19 km distance, adding that the request had been made to clear the sky from civil flights at that time but it had not happened due to reservations."

https://twitter.com/AbasAslani/status/1215940176465272832

Sounds like a classic 'fog of war' clusterfuck, which is why we must ensure that the full scale US attack on Iran I believe they are preparing for  isn't allowed to happen.

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

josh wrote:

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

NDPP wrote:

Yes, I share the opinon that the airport should have been closed and/or flights rescheduled given the very real possibility of an imminent American attack, and look forward to the eventual report and analysis by the relevent ICAO authority. But for now and for what it's worth this twitter thread suggests some possibilities.

"Iran's IRGC Aerospace Force Commander says that the air defense system had identified the plane as a 'cruise missile' in a 19 km distance, adding that the request had been made to clear the sky from civil flights at that time but it had not happened due to reservations."

https://twitter.com/AbasAslani/status/1215940176465272832

Sounds like a classic 'fog of war' clusterfuck, which is why we must ensure that the full scale US attack on Iran I believe they are preparing for  isn't allowed to happen.

Uncomfortable truth: nobody believes what the Iranian regime is saying except some people here.

NorthReport

Humm...

NDPP wrote:

US, Canada Blame Plane Crash on Iran as Causes Remain Unclear

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/01/10/ukia-j10.html

"With the investigation into the causes for the crash having barely begun, on Thursday, US officials rushed to blame Iran for the downing of the plane. However, the real causes of the crash remain entirely unclear, and there are no grounds to trust the 'suspicions' of Donald Trump or the 'high level of confidence' of the CIA or MI5, all of whom are notorious for systematically lying to the public for the purposes of war propaganda and manufacturing of pretexts for aggression..."

NorthReport

Agreed.

I think it is just a matter of time before Iran's government is overthrown, hopefully internally and peacefully.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Meanwhile it is morning in Iran and the crackdown has begun. Students are facing massive security, interrogations and arrest.

Nobody here should defend this regime. Not one bit.

We do not need to give them any ground while we criticize the US behaviour.

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

Agreed.

I think it is just a matter of time before Iran's government is overthrown, hopefully internally and peacefully.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Meanwhile it is morning in Iran and the crackdown has begun. Students are facing massive security, interrogations and arrest.

Nobody here should defend this regime. Not one bit.

We do not need to give them any ground while we criticize the US behaviour.

It is like a ship where it is down to life support in terms of direction of resources. Except life suppot is oppression and corruption. This could actually stay like this for a long time or fall in months. It is impossible to tell. These kinds of things happen quickly or not at all. The Iranian state has a lot of experience with oppression and propaganda and manipulation and fear. This goes back to long before the revolution.

It is worth remembering that the Shah put down popular movements and with the help of the US and UK put down a progressive government as far back as 1953. The Iranian regimes -- all of them -- are expert at this.

Iranians in Canada and the US have a history of coming here that goes back to 1953 again in 1979 and a drip drip ever since.

We do not need to defend them but certainly we should not be interfering militarily. The truth - I think  - is that while the US and Canada and others can interfere - even if they backed the correct side they would stain any legitimacy it otherwise would have. This poisons the result. There have been times when outside interference has made something happen faster than it would otherwise have but then doomed it to eventual failure. What we can do is make sure there is a balance here. By that I do not mean a counter balance to the excess in the other direction but a real balance. The outside when it comes to the Middle East and Central Asia has a problem of credibility. There is no sense in now trying to craft the right intervention. No intervention can survive the taint of interference. Policy makers who pretend that we can help need to understand that even if we could magically decide to know which is the right side and to back that side, we sow the seeds of its failure by our involvement. Sadly desperate people call out to the powers of western empires because of desperation but these always should be resisted, are usually very small minorities and we should have the responsibility to understand that our response does them more harm.

 

 

JKR

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

Each of these is a separate decision. The airline had a responsibility to question Iran more than the passengers to question them. It is their job to assess situations in different parts of the world they fly in and not always trust the government but to make the right choice for the passengers.

JKR

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

josh

JKR wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

Kind of like questioning the U.S. government.

NDPP

Was the Shootdown of the Ukrainian Airplane Near Tehran Intended, A Screw Up Or A Mistake?

https://t.co/rBYTJnIZvq

"After a shootdown of the Ukrainian flight PS752 the big question within Iran and within its military and political circles is what went wrong. An analysis of the circumstances under which the incident took place unfortunately shows that nothing went wrong. The strategical and tactical decisions under which the incident took place unfortunately shows that nothing went wrong. The strategic and tactical decisions that were made were all rational and made sense. But unfortunately shit happens even when everything else works as it is supposed to work.

The Iran Front Page has now published a full English language transcript of the press conference by the IRGC Aerospace commander Brigadier General Amir-Ali Hayjizadeh. It also provides a video with English subtitles of the talk. This is a main point one must keep in mind. There really was a threat from the US and everyone thought that war would break out within the next minutes or hours. Decisions made under such stress are more prone to be wrong. This is the normal 'fog of war' situation in which misinformation or electronic interference causes false alarms and where confusion sets in..."

Ken Burch

JKR wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

In any case, the Iranian government had no reason to assume it was necessary to delay flights for 24 hours.  

Ken Burch

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

Kind of like questioning the U.S. government.

Yeah, there is that.

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

Is that a talking point of yours? You think that the airline questionning Iran's assurances and ordering the flight to take off an hour later would cause reprocussions? Do tell.

We are talking about people who died and are dying. Can we respect them by being a little less ridiculous than this?

Sean in Ottawa

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

Kind of like questioning the U.S. government.

Same irrelevant garbage from the other side.

This is as respectful to Iranian people as it is when you and your partner go over to someone else's house and have a rip-roaring fight while they are in the middle of an emergency.

The comment that you both got off on hearing your talking points was not about standing up to the government of Iran but questionning their safety assurances long enough to delay a flight for a couple hours. Your all just wanted to hear yourselves proclaim your real priority which is not the people but your favorite talking points.

JKR

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

JKR wrote:

josh wrote:

JKR wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I would never have gone to the airport that night myself so I do understand the idea that walking into a tornado is a bad idea.

It sounds to me like you're blaming the victims.

The passengers relied on the airline to determine that it was safe to fly.  The airline was negligent in not postponing the flight for 24 hours to see what the situati9n was.

 

The airline relied on Iran to determine that it was safe to fly.  Iran was negligent in not postponing flights for at least 24 hours to see what the situation was.

The airline had a responsibility to question Iran....

Questioning the government of Iran has been known to lead to negative repercussions.

Is that a talking point of yours? You think that the airline questionning Iran's assurances and ordering the flight to take off an hour later would cause reprocussions? Do tell.

We are talking about people who died and are dying. Can we respect them by being a little less ridiculous than this?

I think by not warning or even contacting the airlines, Iranian aviation officials signaled to the airlines that the Iranian aviation officials thought Iranian air space was safe.

NDPP

Iran and Other Notes From the Edge of the Narrative Matrix

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1216370677072060416

"The greatest asset of the propagandists is your belief that you haven't been propagandized. Those who advance war propaganda are participating in that war just as much as the people who actually go and fight in it. They're just playing a much safer and more cowardly role..."

"We seek to establish a democratic, free and progressive Iran based on the separation of religion and states based on pluralism, gender equality, autonomy of the oppressed ethnic groups, and abolition of the death penalty."

https://twitter.com/Maryam_Rajavi/status/1216141080225308673

 

'We Stand With the Iranian People'

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1216179898307567618

"Democrat Rep Brad Sherman of House foreign affairs committee among a handful of sitting members of Congress saluting the MEK cult's regime change convention overnight.'

Pondering

Victim blaming accusations can be a shield preventing acknowledgement of dangerous situations. If I go walking down a dark alley and get mugged the fault is with the mugger not me. It's still a good idea to avoid dark alleys. 

I don't blame Iranians for going home for weddings and vacations, I would likely do the same, but it is a risk. So are many other countries in the world. "Something can happen" anywhere but the risk does change depending on where you are. For example, if you are in Iraq, you can be collateral damage in a US drone hit. 

The whole indignant "hold Iran responsible" just sounds so hollow to me given world events in general. This was an accident. If someone did it deliberately it wasn't under official orders to shoot down a passenger airliner. 

What the US did was deliberate. Regardless of the target's evilness they used a drone to assasinate someone in another country without any regard for innocents that could be near by. They deliberately lured him there so they could do it.

Unfortunately there is no clear way to hold the US accountable so we huff and puff and obsess over holding Iran responsible for basically not having their shit together. 

JKR

I think the U.S.'s assassination of Soleimani was a criminal act that contravened international law and played a significant role in Iran's accidental downing of the Ukrainian airliner. I think both the US and Iran are responsible for the downing of the airline, maybe more the U.S. than Iran. 

NDPP

Maple Leaf Foods CEO Takes Aim at US Government Over Downing of PS752 By Iran

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/maple-leaf-foods-ceo-ps752-us-iran-1.54...

"...In a series of tweets on Sunday, Michael McCain said the time since Wednesday's crash has not quelled his anger over when he describes as a 'needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran.' McCain said he feels that 'a narcissist in Washington,' destabilized the region, ultimately leading to the crash. Iran has admitted the plane was mistaken for a hostile target amid those soaring tensions with the United States, after first pinning the crash on a mechanical failure. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said Iran must take full responsibility for shooting down the plane. He said that must include a full and credible investigation, but he's steered clear of pinning the crash on the Americans. 'I think it's too soon to be drawing conclusions or assigning blame or responsibility in whatever proportions, he told reporters last week. McCain said he's both livid and mourning for his colleague's wife and 11 year old son, who were killed on the plane..."

 

NDPP

NDP Statement On Revelations About The Ukrainian Flight 752 Tragedy

https://www.ndp.ca/news/ndp-statement-revelations-about-ukrainian-flight...

"Today, NDP Jagmeet Singh made the following statement on the most recent revelations about the Ukrainian Flight 752 tragedy..."

josh

NDPP wrote:

Maple Leaf Foods CEO Takes Aim at US Government Over Downing of PS752 By Iran

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/maple-leaf-foods-ceo-ps752-us-iran-1.54...

"...In a series of tweets on Sunday, Michael McCain said the time since Wednesday's crash has not quelled his anger over when he describes as a 'needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran.' McCain said he feels that 'a narcissist in Washington,' destabilized the region, ultimately leading to the crash. Iran has admitted the plane was mistaken for a hostile target amid those soaring tensions with the United States, after first pinning the crash on a mechanical failure. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said Iran must take full responsibility for shooting down the plane. He said that must include a full and credible investigation, but he's steered clear of pinning the crash on the Americans. 'I think it's too soon to be drawing conclusions or assigning blame or responsibility in whatever proportions, he told reporters last week. McCain said he's both livid and mourning for his colleague's wife and 11 year old son, who were killed on the plane..."

 

 

Good man.

NDPP

Families of PS752 Victims Could Go After Ukraine Airline or Iran in Bid For Compensation

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/compensation-victims-ps752

"...Lawyers say there are three main avenues for family members to achieve financial compensation: through civil actions, through the International Court of Justice, or through international diplomacy. Vincent Genova, a Toronto lawyer who practices personal injury and aviation law, said the families of Canadian citizens and those with ties to Canada could most likely launch a civil action in a Canadian court against Ukraine International Airlines, the operator of Flight 752..."

(Watch for Ukraine's role in the investigation to minimize their exposure to such suits. The airline is an asset of the powerful Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch, Ihor Kolomoisky, a longtime associate and backer of Ukraine's president Zelensky.)

josh

The airline was negligent.  They are a natural target for a lawsuit.

Sean in Ottawa

josh wrote:

The airline was negligent.  They are a natural target for a lawsuit.

They claimed to have received assurances from Iran. They have not shared them. People have a right to this information.

We now know the circumcstances for the delay so that much is done but not the dtails of any assurances.

Also Iran has to asnwer questions about why they had no communications between the person shooting AA and the airport just a few kms away. They say that their system for communications to aircraft malfunctionned. This is a serious issue and is typical of the low level of competence and low level of working infrastructure in Iran at the present time. Also very typical of the lack of training.

People have said that such an accident is not believable - both on one side to say it means they meant it and on the other to say it did not happen. The sad truth is this kind of stupidity is common -- and particularly common in Iran at the moment. It is a product of financial strain to be sure (although the Regime does have moeny for some things which is why the population is furious) but it is also a byproduct of corruption.

The US are still claiming that their strike had nothing to do with the Iranian action but that too is baloney. There is a principle in law that you are responsible for what can be reasonably predicted from your actions. The state of the Iranian economy, the issues with its infrastructure, the level of training and corruption (people get jobs they do not kow how to do) has been reported on by the US extensively. The demonstrations and crackdown is also predictable. 

The US could not have predicted which plane and they could not have even known that it would be a plane that would be the cracking point. Absolutely they knew there was a serious danger to the Iranian people, in light of their action, normal reactions you would expect from any state, and the actual condition of the Iranian state. It is unreasonable for the US to now pretend that these are unpredictable consequences in terms of their scale. Their detail, yes, but something bad was going to happen. We should not let the US away with saying they did not predict this one bad thing when in fact they took a risk that many other bad things could happen including all out war. 

At no point should any accountability demanded from Ukraine or Iran take away from that demanded of the US for what was an illegal act of war.

Many Iranians are also saying this guy was a killer and we are better off without him. This feeling does not make it right that he be killed in such an illegal and dangerous act. The complex reactions are not contradictory. thye do not need to be cleaned up and simplified into single messages or single responsibilities. It is not even essential that we agree on the order of responsibility. There is another good legal definition here which is joint and several responsibility where you do not need to rank responsibility that in each case is total.

NDPP

Canadian Officials Arriving in Iran Amid PS752 Investigation

https://youtu.be/0cWFIFeVazI

"Canada's Foreign Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne said three officials from the rapid deployment team had flown to Iran on Saturday to set up a base of operations for Canada's part in the investigation into the downing of Flight PS752. A further 8 officals will travel on Monday."

NDPP

Russian Assessment Disputes Iran Account of UIA Shootdown

https://twitter.com/bears_with/status/1216966761381277696

"Russian military experts doubt details of missile shootdown of Ukrainian Flt 752, missile track and timing, aircraft damage. Vzglyad reports assessment that Iranian faction politics decided on limited hang-out, lesser of two evils."

iyraste1313

 They say that their system for communications to aircraft malfunctionned. This is a serious issue and is typical of the low level of competence and low level of working infrastructure in Iran at the present time. Also very typical of the lack of training......

This is pure propaganda...I wish I had such assurance with my own sources of info...I remain open to what may have occurred........

There are far too many anomalies in this Ukraine Air crash...what especially caught my attention was the immediate western media backed protests of hundreds? That refused to trash Israeli and USA flags? Protests over lies by their government? when was the last time that any of our governments plus their government media didn´t lie? Where are our protests?
Okay, first, why did the plane start returning to the airport, to conveniently be in a direct shot of the missile which exploded by the plane? The shrapnel apparently melted one of its 2 engines...so why didn´t the plane just return to the airport with its remaining engine? Why didn´t it unload its fuel before landing?

Even the European Union has suspicions of what happened, suspecting US electronic interference with their communications system.

I am not convinced of anything, yet, but I lean towards the theory that the plane was remotely hijacked, remotely turned around and remotely crashlanded with full fuel.

Of course we cannot expect a fair investigation by the Canadians on the scene, but the families of the deceased have a right to know!"
We have a right to know! If it was a hijack, who is responsible? Being a Ukraine airplane, my immediate suspicions are with Mossad, as they are well imbedded within Ukraine authorities.

Who are the people now being arrested by the Iranian Government? is this just a case of looking for patsies, or in fact was this an attempt at regime change as some are suspecting?
I do not have the answers, but I do not presume to know for sure! 

In terms of low level of competence? have we already forgotten that Iran just pulled off a historic and deadly missile strike, totally disabling the US Defence missile system, which has forced Debka to concede this being a worrisome event for Israeli´s own defence?

NDPP

Without Recent Escalations, Iran Plane Crash Victims Would Be 'Here With Their Families': Trudeau

https://globalnews.ca/news/6404191/justin-trudeau-iran-plane-crash-2020/

"...Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the 57 Canadians killed when Iran shot down Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 would be alive if not for recent escalations in tensions in the region. Trudeau spoke with Global National's Donna Friesen on Monday about the Canadian response to the plane crash and the ongoing work helping to support the families, identifying the victims and holding Iran to account in the investigation..."

NDPP

Iran's Judiciary: Arrests Made Over Downing of Ukrainian Jetliner

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/01/14/616156/Iran-Ukraine-plane-arrest

"Thorough investigations have been launched and a number of individuals have been arrested,' said the official, without specifying exactly how many people were in detention. The spokesman further noted that efforts would be made to shed light on all dimensions of the incident and to ensure that justice is served..."

 

Trump To Blame For Accidential Downing of Ukrainian Passenger Jet: Analyst (and vid)

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/01/14/616171/Trump-blame-downing-of-...

"Media professor at Coventry University, Kenneth Fero, says the responsibility for the unintentional shooting down of a Ukrainian passenger plane in Iran falls on US President Donald Trump."

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

 They say that their system for communications to aircraft malfunctionned. This is a serious issue and is typical of the low level of competence and low level of working infrastructure in Iran at the present time. Also very typical of the lack of training......

This is pure propaganda...I wish I had such assurance with my own sources of info...I remain open to what may have occurred........

There are far too many anomalies in this Ukraine Air crash...what especially caught my attention was the immediate western media backed protests of hundreds? That refused to trash Israeli and USA flags? Protests over lies by their government? when was the last time that any of our governments plus their government media didn´t lie? Where are our protests?
Okay, first, why did the plane start returning to the airport, to conveniently be in a direct shot of the missile which exploded by the plane? The shrapnel apparently melted one of its 2 engines...so why didn´t the plane just return to the airport with its remaining engine? Why didn´t it unload its fuel before landing?

Even the European Union has suspicions of what happened, suspecting US electronic interference with their communications system.

I am not convinced of anything, yet, but I lean towards the theory that the plane was remotely hijacked, remotely turned around and remotely crashlanded with full fuel.

Of course we cannot expect a fair investigation by the Canadians on the scene, but the families of the deceased have a right to know!"
We have a right to know! If it was a hijack, who is responsible? Being a Ukraine airplane, my immediate suspicions are with Mossad, as they are well imbedded within Ukraine authorities.

Who are the people now being arrested by the Iranian Government? is this just a case of looking for patsies, or in fact was this an attempt at regime change as some are suspecting?
I do not have the answers, but I do not presume to know for sure! 

In terms of low level of competence? have we already forgotten that Iran just pulled off a historic and deadly missile strike, totally disabling the US Defence missile system, which has forced Debka to concede this being a worrisome event for Israeli´s own defence?

There is so much wrong with this it is hard to know where to start:

First it is the Iranians giving the excuse of communications malfunctioning - are you saying this is Iranian propaganda?

But there is much worse wrong here:

The issue about not walking on the flags: these are not peeople who like these flags. The point was that they were being directed to walk on them by their government and did not take the bait. This is nothing to do with support for the actions or states of Israel or the US -- it is a rejection of being used by a government they hate to make its propaganda. On another day many of those people might be quite happy to walk on one of those flages sop long as it is not laid out by the government trying to hide its own lies. Nothing really that surpirsing here and not surpirsing that others would trying to make more of it than there is.

You ask why the plane started returning to the airport and speak about a fused engine. We are well past this. Nobody is claiming this anymore. The plane was on a regular route without any deviation when the first missile hit the cockpit and obliterated it. The plane was uncontrolled when it veered. There were no instruments or people left. This has been confirmed and admitted. There was no reaction from the plane as they were killed instantly. The previous stories are old news.

What is your source for this claim from the EU? Is this from some conspiracy site or has it been reported anywhere? I cannot find it.

You can lean towards any theory you like but it is contradicted by all evidence that has been accepted by every party including Iran. It is also contradicted by numerous pictures and video evidence. It is absurd. I know in this modern social media era we can have our own facts and be secure that they will be undisturbed. Your conspiracy will have to include some way of producing holligrams that show two missiles hitting the plane and many videos showing the plane engulfed in beyond control from the ground or anywhere else.

This goes from the ridiculous to the absurd. The only regime change happening in Iran is an utter defeat for the more moderate elected government by hardliners which is assured given that the hardliners would not let the moderates stand for election. The President will likely be impeached by the new hardline assembly after the February elections.

No the Iranians did not totally diasble the US missile defence systems. These are systems of dubious quality and known to be not covering Iraq very well. 

The speculation here is not just skeptical. It is a marraige between what has been admitted by all to be false, with the impossible, with unsubstantiated made up theories into one big interconnected delusion. Is this really all we can come up with to question this process?

A more rational, less ridiculous set of questions would do much more to providing a counterpoint to the story were are hearing might actually be helpful. We should be skeptical. But by being this outragious all we do is help establish the story we are being told.

Being as outlandish as possible does not serve to question anything. It serves to discredit the act of questioning.

How did this site get to be the playground of the absurd when we actually need rational questionning from a non capitalist perspective. Taking ourselves out of the conversation by being this irrational does not serve any but the main-stream view.

 

Sean in Ottawa

Meanwhile Iran's leadership held official ceremonies for the downed victims but the families did not go. The families are getting calls informing them that if they participate in protests their family will not recieve the bodies of their loved ones.

The US rationale for the attack has collapsed factually and legally contradicted by Trump and the knowledge that it was planned months ago. US GOP is defending the attacks in flagrant denial of international law.

Yes - both sides are beyond horrible.

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Meanwhile Iran's leadership held official ceremonies for the downed victims but the families did not go. The families are getting calls informing them that if they participate in protests their family will not recieve the bodies of their loved ones.

Do you have a source for this statement?

iyraste1313

No the Iranians did not totally diasble the US missile defence systems. These are systems of dubious quality and known to be not covering Iraq very well.......

Your statements of incredulity are totally unsubstantiated...the above being one...35 missiles hit the US base, planes flying the injured were seen...not one missile was struck down by US defences, zero!

As I´ve posted above....Debka sees this incompetence? as worrisome!

Re Iranian malfunctioning, what was the cause?

The theory of cyber attack would explain this.....your counterargument is their incompetence.

The reality again, is there was no incompetence on their part in their successful attack. What evidence can you suggest for their incompetence...facts please!

Your statement that the airplane did not get turned around therefore flying directly into the direction of the Iranian missile site...I need something more than your bluster on this...or that no one agrees that this happened......I´m reading some serious investigators saying that it did.....what are your sources....

frankly again, I find your bluster total bs. I am trying to find out the source of this event...this is crucial to know to understand the forces at play in the world and how to defend and stratgize.

re Iranian incompetence?

Danish TV: Damage from Iran strikes ‘much greater’ than US admits

Video courtesy of YouTube and the Central Intelligence Agency

By

PressTV - Iran

-

January 13, 2020

 

Initial Satellite Photos May Have Been Doctored

This January 8, 2020 satellite image released by Planet Labs Inc. reportedly shows damage to the Ain al-Asad US airbase in western Iraq, after being hit by missiles from Iran. (By AFP)

A report by a correspondent for Danish TV 2 who has interviewed Danish soldiers positioned at Iraq’s Ain al-Assad airbase, which was the target of a retaliatory attack from Iran against US forces, shows that the damage done to the base has been “much greater” than the US officials acknowledge.

The report cites Danish sergeant John and other Danish soldiers as making the comment in an interview after the US military base in the western Iraqi province of Anbar was targeted by Iran’s retaliatory strikes.

“Suddenly, the first wave came, that’s what I call it. Nine rockets at barely a ton each. It cannot be described. I’ve never experienced anything like it, and I hope to never come to it again,” said the Danish sergeant, who was in a bunker along with his other comrades at the time of the strikes.

“The first strikes were so severe that we were sure we were going to a golden desert and nothing would be left. We were really surprised that everything hadn’t fallen on top of our heads. I would estimate that the nearest rocket hit 300 yards from us, and as we walked around afterward, there were halves of helicopters, and there were holes so big that you could park a van in them,” the sergeant added.

Sergeant John went on to say that the damage was “actually much greater than the US admitted, with even helicopters being destroyed and not just several buildings damaged and hitting open territory in the camp.

Iranian sources have revealed that the pre-flight inspection checklist was not signed by Iranian airport engineers, however, the Ukrainian crew insisted on flying at their own risk and responsibility......

Why?

Ukrainian International Airlines is owned by Israeli businessman Aron Mayberg and the infamous Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch, politician and energy tycoon Igor Kolomoisky, who was notably one of the biggest financiers of the anti-Russian, pro-EU coup d’etat which overthrew the democratically elected government of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014....

Again, I don´t suggest I have all the answers...but surely this is suspicious!

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Meanwhile Iran's leadership held official ceremonies for the downed victims but the families did not go. The families are getting calls informing them that if they participate in protests their family will not recieve the bodies of their loved ones.

Do you have a source for this statement?

There are many but mine was in Persian -- you ok with that? I will get the link

I heard this from Iranians who told me it was happening and I was shown news articles in Persian which I cannot read but it was translated. I just googled to find an English one but know nothing of this source since was not how I learned about it. Iranians in Canada are speaking about it as some are getting those calls.

https://112.international/politics/iranian-intelligence-threatens-relatives-not-to-give-bodies-of-those-killed-in-plane-crash-media-47419.html

ETA: to clarify most of these calls are demands not to give media interviews and others are about attending deminstrations.

The poeple who attend demonstrations are being shot at (some time rubber bullets sometimes live fire and theya re subject to arrest.

One thing that I am hearing from people is that the live fire is happening more in the poor areas but the rubber bullets in the wealthier places. I have heard this observation without explanation. My own speculation is that the students may include kids of the leaders and it is a bigger deal to kill one of those than poorer people. This has happened before.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

No the Iranians did not totally diasble the US missile defence systems. These are systems of dubious quality and known to be not covering Iraq very well.......

Your statements of incredulity are totally unsubstantiated...the above being one...35 missiles hit the US base, planes flying the injured were seen...not one missile was struck down by US defences, zero!

As I´ve posted above....Debka sees this incompetence? as worrisome!

Re Iranian malfunctioning, what was the cause?

The theory of cyber attack would explain this.....your counterargument is their incompetence.

The reality again, is there was no incompetence on their part in their successful attack. What evidence can you suggest for their incompetence...facts please!

Your statement that the airplane did not get turned around therefore flying directly into the direction of the Iranian missile site...I need something more than your bluster on this...or that no one agrees that this happened......I´m reading some serious investigators saying that it did.....what are your sources....

frankly again, I find your bluster total bs. I am trying to find out the source of this event...this is crucial to know to understand the forces at play in the world and how to defend and stratgize.

re Iranian incompetence?

Danish TV: Damage from Iran strikes ‘much greater’ than US admits

Video courtesy of YouTube and the Central Intelligence Agency

By

PressTV - Iran

-

January 13, 2020

 

Initial Satellite Photos May Have Been Doctored

This January 8, 2020 satellite image released by Planet Labs Inc. reportedly shows damage to the Ain al-Asad US airbase in western Iraq, after being hit by missiles from Iran. (By AFP)

A report by a correspondent for Danish TV 2 who has interviewed Danish soldiers positioned at Iraq’s Ain al-Assad airbase, which was the target of a retaliatory attack from Iran against US forces, shows that the damage done to the base has been “much greater” than the US officials acknowledge.

The report cites Danish sergeant John and other Danish soldiers as making the comment in an interview after the US military base in the western Iraqi province of Anbar was targeted by Iran’s retaliatory strikes.

“Suddenly, the first wave came, that’s what I call it. Nine rockets at barely a ton each. It cannot be described. I’ve never experienced anything like it, and I hope to never come to it again,” said the Danish sergeant, who was in a bunker along with his other comrades at the time of the strikes.

“The first strikes were so severe that we were sure we were going to a golden desert and nothing would be left. We were really surprised that everything hadn’t fallen on top of our heads. I would estimate that the nearest rocket hit 300 yards from us, and as we walked around afterward, there were halves of helicopters, and there were holes so big that you could park a van in them,” the sergeant added.

Sergeant John went on to say that the damage was “actually much greater than the US admitted, with even helicopters being destroyed and not just several buildings damaged and hitting open territory in the camp.

Iranian sources have revealed that the pre-flight inspection checklist was not signed by Iranian airport engineers, however, the Ukrainian crew insisted on flying at their own risk and responsibility......

Why?

Ukrainian International Airlines is owned by Israeli businessman Aron Mayberg and the infamous Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch, politician and energy tycoon Igor Kolomoisky, who was notably one of the biggest financiers of the anti-Russian, pro-EU coup d’etat which overthrew the democratically elected government of Viktor Yanukovych in 2014....

Again, I don´t suggest I have all the answers...but surely this is suspicious!

I cannot speak to Americans lying about the damge. This has nothing to do with what I have been speaking about and I assume they would do so.

I also assume Iranian government sources are lying becuase they have been. Nobody trusts them even people friendly to the Regime and somewhat forgiving of them do not expect them to tell the truth.

No I do not thin it is supsicious to see an Israeli business person owning Ukrainian airlines. And no that fact is not enough for your unbeliveable and impossible conjectures. Now before you go and say that the ukrainian Airlines were involved in killing their crew, damaging their company who now owes 230 thousand dollars per person (the statutory minimum payment, just pause a moment.

I ask you what the heck is your standard for calling soemthign suspicious? 0 evidence?

Let's have at least some standard for putting this crap up here rather than whatever our wildest imaginations come up with.

Write some fiction and call it fiction or ground wild accusations on something....

Like I say -- this conversation -- necessary to have rfom a non MSM non capitalist viewpoint is discredited by the wild unsubstantiated and frankly impossible stuff being posted here. You wnat to promote alternative thinking? Think of the damge to the idea of alternative thinking that comes from suggesting things like the movements of a plane with the cockpit already blown away or remote control whe it is already proven to be a missile strike.

The possibility that I believe that the Americans are lying does not lead to all these other fantasies

NDPP

Canada Strong Campaign

https://torontofoundation.ca/canadastrongcampaign

"Mohamad Fakihi, President of Paramount Fine Foods and Founder of the Fakih Foundation, has launched a campaign to collect funds for the victims of Flight 752..."

NDPP

UPDATE: Canada's Response To the Ukraine International Airlines Flight PS752 Tragedy

https://twitter.com/CanadaFP/status/1217156156193484805

"Page devoted to Canada's response..."

iyraste1313

Let's have at least some standard for putting this crap up here rather than whatever our wildest imaginations come up with....

please if you have some evidence to counter argue the ones I´ve put forward, fine!
I´ve seen evidence of the damage to one of the 2 engines, I´ve seen photos of the return trajectory of the plane flying directly over the Iran missile base, or are these just doctored photos?

So Iran news have reported the refusal of the request to help cipher the black box data from the plane, by Canada...why? Suspicious!

Do you necessarily call everything you disagree with, fantasy and crap? My suggestions here are derived from some extensive and technical theory by some highly placed people...you can call this whatever you want, but offer some counterarguments...of course no o0ne can until the black box data is deciphered! why is Canada refusing?

iyraste1313

Also, the European Union has declared that they are holding off on any sanctions, until it is determined whether or not in fact the airwaves were jammed, preventing a clear view by the Iranians of the nature of the flying object.

But you apparently have made up your mind? What do you know that they do not? Again, suspicious!

iyraste1313

from sputnik....

​The anonymous videographer is the person who caught the 19-second clip which shows a missile striking Flight PS752 shortly after take-off from Tehran’s Imam Khomenei airport at around 6.15 am. This person, who remains silent during the filming while smoking a cigarette (the smoke briefly wafts over the screen), is standing in the suburb of Parand looking northwest. His location was verified by the NY Times using satellite data. The rapid way the newspaper’s technical resources were marshaled raises a curious question about how a seemingly random video submission was afforded such punctilious attention.

But the big question which many people on social media are asking is: why was this “videographer” standing in a derelict industrial area outside Tehran at around six o’clock in the morning with a mobile phone camera training on a fixed angle to the darkened sky? The airliner is barely visible, yet the sky-watching person has the camera pointed and ready to film a most dramatic event, seconds before it happened. That strongly suggests, foreknowledge.

Given that something awful has just been witnessed it is all the more strange that the person holding the camera remains calm and unshaken. There is no audible expression of shock or even the slightest disquiet.

Turns out that Nariman Gharib, the guy who received the video and credited by the NY Times for submitting it, is a vociferous anti-Iranian government dissident who does not live in Iran. He ardently promotes regime change in his social media posts.....

again suspicious, as my recent post about the nature of the protests against the Iran Government....

....was this in fact a set up? Who is behind this? This is a crime which must be solved and punished...who are the people now being jailed in Tehran?

As I stated before, the Iranian Canadian families victimized by this crime must be respected!
if in fact the black box data shows that the airwaves were jammed, then heads must roll!

Hurtin Albertan

First off, pretty sure the black box, which consists of a flight data recorder as well as the cockpit voice recorder, isn't going to show any evidence of airwaves being jammed, that isn't what it is designed to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder

If we ever get to hear what was on both devices I am positive all it will show is that everything was proceeding as normal for Flight 752, up until it wasn't.  Although there might be a very short burst of noise at the very end of the recording that indicates the missile explosion, which I believe was the case with MH17 over Ukraine.  But evidence of jamming?  Pretty sure no to that.  

Second, as to how quickly the media could know that the video of the missle launch and impact was taken inside Iran, could be as simple as someone knowing how to look at the metadata in the video

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geotagging

Lastly, have you considered that the person who took the video was simply filming the early morning skies over Tehran in hopes of catching footage of the American counterattack that pretty much everybody on the planet was expecting to happen?  All we saw was a short clip that was very possibly taken out of a much longer video.

Hurtin Albertan

As for the Iranians, I was curious if the IRGC had any antiaircraft weapon systems under their tactical control.  As it turns out, the internal air defense of Iran is done by it's own seperate branch of the Iranian military, which is a bit unusual to me, you'd think that would be the role of the Iranian air force but maybe having the air defense as it's own seperate branch is more common than I know of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic_of_Iran_Air_Defense_Force

The IRGC seems to be one of those organizations that has to have a finger in everything, as not only does the IRGC have it's own seperate air force it also has it's own seperate air defense element as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerospace_Force_of_the_Islamic_Revolutionary_Guard_Corps

I sure as heck don't claim to be any sort of miltary expert especially in regards to internal air defense systems, but it seems a pretty dumb idea to have 2 seperate organizations doing the same role.  That's 2 lines of communication, more duplication, can certainly lead to confusion over who is actually in charge of what, who gives orders etc etc.

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