Trudeau says plane crash that killed 63 Canadians will be 'thoroughly investigated'

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NDPP

WikiLeaks: Russia Gave Israel Iranian Codes (2012)

https://www.jpost.com/Defense/WikiLeaks-Russia-gave-Israel-Iranian-codes

"Latest round of leaks suggests Russia gave Israel codes to access Iran's Tor defense system..."

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

please if you have some evidence to counter argue the ones I´ve put forward, fine!

You and others are the ones putting up wild conjectures like a plane without a cockpit operating by remote control. It is not up to others to have to keep up with whatever bizzaro thing that you can type here to prove how ridiculous it is. It is up to you to think twice about these unfounded theories posted as if you have something when you don't.

Once the Iranians admitted what happened, the whole world is in widespread agreement on this (although not on details), and many videos and pictures have been produced if you want to question these things out of the recesses of you imagination it is up to you to post evidence. 

Garbage like saying an airline having Israeli ownership is supicious without anything else is not something I have to dispute other than to point out just how disrespectful it is (And of course it feeds into the reputation the right tries to create of the left - that for most of us is false- about hating so much that we will not let facts get in the way. Seems true about you though.) 

It is up to you when posting shit to give a shred of logic, and more than a shred of evidence - if you are putting up something that contradicts what literally everyone else is saying and all the evidence that is public.

This has destroyed this place in terms of credibility when people like you posts piles of crap without them being opinion but rather false conjectures of unsupported imaginings.

This was never meant to be a wild conspiracy site that loads actual information beside the bowels of your imagination.

This was not supposed to be a place where it approaches a national tragedy like it is a fan fiction site where you make up your own endings no matter how unbelievable they are.

This is what this site is now where people are expected either first to go along with a stream of  vomit from frequent- but ignorant posters - that buries any real facts or opinions. Or second, to spend their time challenging whatever garbage someone pulls out of their ass. No it is not up to me to prove a negative everytime someone puts up illogical unsupported crap.

You know if you were a right wing plant sent here to destroy a left of centre place of real discussion -- you could not do a better job. Your posts often are out there in opinion and that is just fine. The problem is when you make up facts that are even frankly impossible and then say that it is up to others to refute them.

Apart from doing this around what is a national and international tragedy and the disrespect that is -- it is also destroying the only left of centre meeting place for ideas by turning this place into a parody of itself. 

Like I said stop your projectile vomit posts and go meet some people in the Iranian community. They are not hard to find as they are at vigils from coast to coast. I just got back from one at Carleton where we heard a 13 year old boy speak about the father he lost. Have some fucking humanity.

NDPP

 

Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down But There May Be More To The Story

https://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-africa/iran/3818-who...

"What seems to have been a case of bad judgement and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained..."

See also #152

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

 

Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down But There May Be More To The Story

https://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-africa/iran/3818-who...

"What seems to have been a case of bad judgement and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained..."

See also #152

 

 

This should be explored as a part of the investigation. It lies enough within the bounds of possibility that direct answers on it should be expected. I would guess that the Iranians are more than happy to investigate this. All parties should at least follow these questions.

That said, just becuase these are worth asking about does not mean that we should presume them to be true absent real evidence. 

NDPP

Canadian Government May Offer Interim Compensation To Families of Flight 752 Victims

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadian-government-may...

"The federal government says it's considering offering some short-term financial support to the families of the Flight 752 victims, as Canada and four other countries affected by the disaster are set to meet in London Thursday to form a plan to deal with Iran. Ukraine's Foreign Minister Vadym Pristaiko said he hopes the five countries will agree to form a joint investigative team that will operate in parallel with the Iranian-led investigtion on the ground in Tehran. The foreign ministers from Canada, Ukraine, Britain, Sweden and Afghanistan will also discuss possible legal options as well as the feasibility of passing a resolution condemning Iran at the UN Security Council..."

Sean in Ottawa

btw: reports about Iranian communications issues should be examined but also should be noted that their internet is very bad, slow with lots of breaks. It really does not allow streaming in the way people understand that service here.

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Canadian Government May Offer Interim Compensation To Families of Flight 752 Victims

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canadian-government-may...

"The federal government says it's considering offering some short-term financial support to the families of the Flight 752 victims, as Canada and four other countries affected by the disaster are set to meet in London Thursday to form a plan to deal with Iran. Ukraine's Foreign Minister Vadym Pristaiko said he hopes the five countries will agree to form a joint investigative team that will operate in parallel with the Iranian-led investigtion on the ground in Tehran. The foreign ministers from Canada, Ukraine, Britain, Sweden and Afghanistan will also discuss possible legal options as well as the feasibility of passing a resolution condemning Iran at the UN Security Council..."

I am sure the federal government is polling furiously on this. It is a delicate issue as the government will want to offer some support but they also will not want to trigger backlash among the people who freak out every time they hear about hyphenated Canadians. It is hard to say if the government will loan money or just provide a smaller level of support.

Canadians may not fully understand that the people who died are not the ones getting the money but rather it is those who faced the loss of family members. This means a couple things: the people getting the money are not the ones who travelled and a greater proportion of those people will have been Canadian citizens. The country benefits from investing in care for these people in addition to it being a moral compassionate necessity. There is no doubt that the fight for compensation will take time.

The government should also make sure that there is good and independent legal advice provided (by independent, I mean not based on government interests or those of any side in the debate about responsibility). It is unlikely that the legal positions of the survivors would differ significantly so group advice would not be unreasonable. The problem with lawyers who take contingency could be that some lawyers will take more than reasonable and some will opt for the greatest and fastest payout for hour of their time instead of what be a better legal avenue.

Sean in Ottawa

I am sure that disagreements about responsibility will lead to differences of opinion regarding compensation. I hope thatbotht he Ukrainians and the Iranians do notlink these arguments to strongly.

In the case of the Iranians, the compensation could also be muddied by all the other issues including the economic position of the country, the argument that none were Canadian (as Iran does not recognize dual citizenship), the aggressiveness of the west economically with Iran (remember Canada turned over Iranian government assets to Americans in compensation for American claims previously). Iran could even take the position that Iran's assets were liquidated unreasonably to Americans and with American responsibility part of the mix Canada should look to the US to pay.

I have no idea if the US could be sued. I do not think that they can legally despite the moral connections that are obvious. Perhaps someone truly knowledgeable about international legal claims like this can weigh in. (Please do not respond to comment on what you think you want it to be but only if you actually know - misinformation does not help anyone here).

Sean in Ottawa

BTW - twitter is full of selfish and racist comments from Canadians saying that their tax money should not be used to help the people in terms of any short term assistance despite that the government has had a program (badly managed to be sure) to do this since 2007 for amounts up to 10,000.

It seems that these twitter heroes are upset in part becuase they assume that any family member of a person who travelled to Iran must be brown and Muslim. I don't think they stepped forward to oppose assistance to victims of flood and fire in Canada.

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

btw: reports about Iranian communications issues should be examined but also should be noted that their internet is very bad, slow with lots of breaks. It really does not allow streaming in the way people understand that service here.

In Canada all I can access with most any search engine as an average computer user is pages of ads and imperial media sites usually repeating the same story almost word for word. I find more useful links from posters on babble and my FB feed than is possible with my limited skills using Google or DuckDuckGo. The best place to hide a needle is in a haystack. Our corporate owners hide the truth in page upon page of garbage.

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Please do not respond to comment on what you think you want it to be but only if you actually know - misinformation does not help anyone here.

Really!! Frankly you have no right to tell anyone what they can and cannot discuss on this board.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Please do not respond to comment on what you think you want it to be but only if you actually know - misinformation does not help anyone here.

Really!! Frankly you have no right to tell anyone what they can and cannot discuss on this board.

Your clip out of context was a request for actual legal information rather than speculation.

Anyone can make a request and it does not control others. How many times have people here asked you to stop being a jerk? Never cramped your style.

But curious since you have so many times told people what they can or cannot say -- who elected you?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

btw: reports about Iranian communications issues should be examined but also should be noted that their internet is very bad, slow with lots of breaks. It really does not allow streaming in the way people understand that service here.

In Canada all I can access with most any search engine as an average computer user is pages of ads and imperial media sites usually repeating the same story almost word for word. I find more useful links from posters on babble and my FB feed than is possible with my limited skills using Google or DuckDuckGo. The best place to hide a needle is in a haystack. Our corporate owners hide the truth in page upon page of garbage.

I tried to find any connection between my post and yours and just gave up as there is not one.

The problem with the internet is also that you can find alternative facts but just becuase they are there and alternative does not mean there is any evidence that they are true. Finding an obscure link means nothing as you can find many contradictory obscure links. Yes, some stuff is is at times suppressed but to go through life questionning every fact that is widely accepted with a link to something presented without questionning that source makes no sense. That is unless you buy your tinfoil wholesale.

The real difficulty here is accepting that we need to question things and that process involves gathering credible facts and it is difficult and often impossible to do. Healthy skepticism should not give way to a presumption that any fringe argument must be true. 

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The problem with the internet is also that you can find alternative facts but just becuase they are there and alternative does not mean there is any evidence that they are true. Finding an obscure link means nothing as you can find many contradictory obscure links. Yes, some stuff is is at times suppressed but to go through life questionning every fact that is widely accepted with a link to something presented without questionning that source makes no sense. That is unless you buy your tinfoil wholesale.

The real difficulty here is accepting that we need to question things and that process involves gathering credible facts and it is difficult and often impossible to do. Healthy skepticism should not give way to a presumption that any fringe argument must be true. 

Yeah but so what, who disagrees?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The problem with the internet is also that you can find alternative facts but just becuase they are there and alternative does not mean there is any evidence that they are true. Finding an obscure link means nothing as you can find many contradictory obscure links. Yes, some stuff is is at times suppressed but to go through life questionning every fact that is widely accepted with a link to something presented without questionning that source makes no sense. That is unless you buy your tinfoil wholesale.

The real difficulty here is accepting that we need to question things and that process involves gathering credible facts and it is difficult and often impossible to do. Healthy skepticism should not give way to a presumption that any fringe argument must be true. 

Yeah but so what, who disagrees?

I won't explain it to you becuase I think you might figure it out for yourself.

NDPP

PM Announces Interim Funding For Flight PS752 Victims Families

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/pm-announces-interim-funding-for-flight-...

"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced financial compensation for the families affected by the downed Ukrainian airline that killed all on board including 57 Canadians. PM Trudeau said the government will provide $25,000 per victim, 'to assist with their immediate needs such as funeral arrangements and travel.'

The announcement on Friday morning comes after the prime minister's closed-door meeting with the government's Incident Response Group about the crash and the ongoing investigation into how Flight PS752 was shot down by an Iranian surface-to-air missile more than a week ago. Meanwhile, Foreign Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne is in Muscat, Oman today, meeting with his Iranian counterpart Jayad Zarif. This will be the third time they've met since the crash. More to come..."

NDPP

Iran Must Compensate Crash Victims' Families, Canada-Led Group Agrees

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2020/01/16/foreign-affairs-minister-in...

"Canada and its allies sent a stern message to Iran on Thursday: get ready to pay the families of those who died on board the Ukrainian airliner it shot down and don't try to block any meaningful criminal prosecution of those responsible. These demands were among the five elements in the agreement that emerged from the meeting Canada hosted in London Thursday - with representatives from Britain, Sweden, Afghanistan and Ukraine - countries that lost citizens in the crash of Ukraine Airlines flight PS752. 'We are judging Iran every day, demand by demand, Foreign Affairs Minister  Francois-Philippe Champagne said after the meeting..."

kropotkin1951

NDPP wrote:

 'We are judging Iran every day, demand by demand, Foreign Affairs Minister  Francois-Philippe Champagne said after the meeting..."

We have entered a new phase in Canadian hubris. The US is the policeman and NATO is the judge and jury.

iyraste1313

Canada’s Media and Political Establishment Endorse Illegal Assassination of Iranian General Suleimani

By Roger Jordan

World Socialist Web Site 17 January 2020

Canada! what a gross bunch of hypocrites! Canadians ought to consider taking The Government and its politically complicit Parties to Court over its gross violations

NDPP

6 F-35 Jets Were Reportedly On Iran's Borders At Time of Plane Crash: Russia

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/01/17/616436/Iran-Ukraine-airplane-U...

"Acting Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says there is unverified information that at least six American F-35 jets were 'in the Iran border area' at the time when Iran accidentally downed Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 last week. Lavrov stressed that it was important to understand the context of the incident, which occurred as Iran was on very high alert after retaliating against Washington's assassination of Lieutenant-General Qassem Soleimani.

'There is information that the Iranians were expecting another attack from the United States after the strike but did not know what form it might take,' Lavrov said. The Russian foreign minister added that he was not trying to excuse anyone for the incident. Lavrov added that Washington's 'unprecedented' assassination of Soleimani 'undermined and put into question all imaginable norms of international law..."

If indeed US F-35 stealth fighers were in the area, and it seems reasonable to conclude they might have been, then it should be remembered that among its state of the art electronic and cyber weapons systems are highly sophisticated capabilities to disrupt, deceive and deflect  enemy surveillance, radar, communications and 'spoof'' missile defense systems. Any verified presence in the area would certainly force any serious investigation to consider the F-35's interference capabilities as a potential factor in the  shootdown.

iyraste1313

My question, Has the Iranian Canadians formed some group to defend its interests, analyse the investigations and media responses. are they aware of this fact, of the interference capabilities of these F35s?

NDPP

Black Boxes of Boeing 737-800 Downed in Tehran To Be Sent To Ukraine - Chief Iranian Investigator

https://on.rt.com/a9ae

"Hassan Rezaeifar told Tasnim News Agency on Saturday that once the flight recorders are transported to Kiev, experts from the US, Canada and France will work to extract the data from them. If they fail, the black boxes will be sent to a lab in France. Rezaeifer previously stated that Iran lacks the technical expertise to extract the necessary flight data on its own..."

NDPP

Grayzone: Iran Plane Crash - Who Do Iranians Blame?

https://youtu.be/EBGw5GMXb4c

"Red Lines host Anya Parampil speaks with Setareh Sadeqi, a PhD candidate at the University of Tehran who lost family friends in the tragic Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 crash. Anya and Setareh discuss recent protests in Iran sparked by the crash, which Western media have framed as an anti-government uprising..."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Grayzone: Iran Plane Crash - Who Do Iranians Blame?

https://youtu.be/EBGw5GMXb4c

"Red Lines host Anya Parampil speaks with Setareh Sadeqi, a PhD candidate at the University of Tehran who lost family friends in the tragic Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752 crash. Anya and Setareh discuss recent protests in Iran sparked by the crash, which Western media have framed as an anti-government uprising..."

It is really worth googling this person "Setareh Sadeqi." she claims to be an ordinary Iranian speaking for ordinary Iranians. To believe her suggestions of a common viewpoint of a fairly united country is to deny all of what we have seen which is clearly a divided country with more than one point of view. There is no ordinary perspective of ordinary people on who to blame and this person is clearly close to the state.

If you google her you will see that the sheer volume of articles and interviews over many years that she puts out speaking on behalf of the government is staggering. She is not an ordinary Iranian.

She may speak for herself and she certainly does speak for a segment of the population that has incredible loyalty to the state - as she has expressed over many years on may subjects. There is a very hardline minority in Iran. There are also many poeple whose relationship with the government is central to their wellbeing. I knew just one such person who was a young student here in Canada whose family were close to the state and who went out of her way to praise and excuse the state of all criticisms.  It is clear that she is not some person caught up in this as she is presented but a person who has long been a spokesperson for the state perspective who has not just stumbled on a journalist by accident this one time. She is articulate in English and very effective. She is brought out frequently for the purpose. Sure she may be sincere in some respects but she is not a spokesperson for the masses or someone picked up randomly to give an opinion. Those people do not seem to share her perspective.

iyraste1313

False Flag? Fmr CIA Officer Suggests US Hacked Ukrainian Plane Transponder To Provoke Iran Shootdown

Philip Giraldi, a former counter-terrorism specialist and military intelligence officer of the CIA, penned a piece in the American Herald Tribune speculating that the U.S. launched several cyber-attacks, one on an Iranian missile defense system, and another on the transponder of the doomed Ukrainian plane.

Giraldi explains the Iranian missile operator experienced extreme "jamming" and Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752's transponder was switched off several minutes before the two Russian made Tor missiles were launched. 

"The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming American cruise missiles, then fired," he said.

Giraldi concludes by saying electronic warfare by the U.S. to bring down a civilian jet and blame it on Iran "suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event" to create a false flag for the next world war. .....

....too many people of the highest integrity are suspicious of the source of the plane crash...too many people writing in these threads are attempting to ridicule anything but the Mainstream media! This is political correctness! This is subtle censorship!  

NDPP

Ford Calls For Regime Change in Iran as He Announces Scholarships in Memory of 57 Canadians Killed in Crash

https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2020/01/15/ford-calls-for-re...

"Ontario Premier Doug Ford has waded into international relations calling for the ouster of the 'brutal' government in Iran as he announced $10,000 one-time scholarships in memory of the 57 Canadian victims in last week's plane crash in Iran. 'There's one person shot down that plane. That was the Iranian regime. The ruthless evil Iranian regime that needs to be changed, Ford told reporters Thursday.."

iyraste1313

Ford Calls For Regime Change in Iran as He Announces Scholarships in Memory of 57 Canadians Killed in Crash...

...Just one more fool who actually believes the MSM. This is just one more example,of endless examples, of the fact that MSM, corrupted by its benefactors, can mezmorize a population into believing whatever they wish, which makes a mockery of democracy...It´s remarkable how so many people actually take this charade seriously!

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

Ford Calls For Regime Change in Iran as He Announces Scholarships in Memory of 57 Canadians Killed in Crash...

...Just one more fool who actually believes the MSM. This is just one more example,of endless examples, of the fact that MSM, corrupted by its benefactors, can mezmorize a population into believing whatever they wish, which makes a mockery of democracy...It´s remarkable how so many people actually take this charade seriously!

Note: in their memory but not benefitting any foreign students or the victims. It is a 400,000 benefit going on top of a 25 million cut. Propaganda only.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

False Flag? Fmr CIA Officer Suggests US Hacked Ukrainian Plane Transponder To Provoke Iran Shootdown

Philip Giraldi, a former counter-terrorism specialist and military intelligence officer of the CIA, penned a piece in the American Herald Tribune speculating that the U.S. launched several cyber-attacks, one on an Iranian missile defense system, and another on the transponder of the doomed Ukrainian plane.

Giraldi explains the Iranian missile operator experienced extreme "jamming" and Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752's transponder was switched off several minutes before the two Russian made Tor missiles were launched. 

"The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming American cruise missiles, then fired," he said.

Giraldi concludes by saying electronic warfare by the U.S. to bring down a civilian jet and blame it on Iran "suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event" to create a false flag for the next world war. .....

....too many people of the highest integrity are suspicious of the source of the plane crash...too many people writing in these threads are attempting to ridicule anything but the Mainstream media! This is political correctness! This is subtle censorship!  

Don't you love the word "speculating?

It is like conspiracy tv shows breathlessly talking about what may have happened becuase they cannot say there is any evidence that it did.

Certainly these allegations ought to be investigated and I am sure they will be. But until they are then believing outright speculation is not reasonable.I am sure this speculation is being driven by Iran's communications problems that the country is famous for - bad internet links and a Guard full of corruption which raises many questions of efficiency and competence. 

Sure must be ruled out by investigation but it should net be presented as the most likely - even if people here want it to be true.

 

kropotkin1951

We have endless threads that speculate over the Trump fiasco driven by various spooks who now seem to have become the medias favourite pundits. I find it extremely annoying but not in anyway restricted to Iran. No matter what the international story actors from all sides will give their spin, the new reality is that our Western media now quotes  spies, people who are paid to lie. I'll bet that inside Iran there is a ton of speculation and this angle is one of the things being discussed.

NDPP

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Certainly these allegations ought to be investigated and I am sure they will be.

NDPP wrote:

We agree on the first part. Less so on the second. As for 'conspiracy theories' please remember the vast majority by far are msm driven 'truths' until revealed later as concoctions: 'WMDs in Iraq' or more recently the White Helmet staged fake Douma 'chemical attack' to justify US missile strikes on Syria. 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy...'

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

We have endless threads that speculate over the Trump fiasco driven by various spooks who now seem to have become the medias favourite pundits. I find it extremely annoying but not in anyway restricted to Iran. No matter what the international story actors from all sides will give their spin, the new reality is that our Western media now quotes  spies, people who are paid to lie. I'll bet that inside Iran there is a ton of speculation and this angle is one of the things being discussed.

I am hearing enough from Iranian sources that I do not have to bet.

These types of theories are not part of the conversation among most Iranians. This does not mean they all agree. There are some angry when the US is blamed becuase they see it as a deflection by the government. Others follow the chain back to the strike and blame both. The idea that others outside of Iran actually were involved with shooting down the plane is held by a frigne that does not even include the hardliners who mainly concentrate on accident under pressure of US attack and counter attack.

I have mentionned this thread to a few Iranians and they think it is shameful and I think you have seen my own follow ups in that regard.

Still even the distant possibilities ought to be investigate (not the impossibilities as I raised upthread). But in the meantime they should be taken as what they are -- distant unlikely possibilities that ought to be investigated as a part of a full investigation but not presented as a shield over the more likely explanations

I also think that the US is so guilty of so much that we really do not need to stretch the truth or to add speculation. What is proven is enough. When there is speculation when can wait for proof before we start breathlessly declaring it to be true. we also do not need to white wash a terrible regime in order to provide more blame to the US when they already have enough to condemn them. sometimes in the rela world neither side is worthy of support and both are bad enough that it is worthless trying to say this shit stinks less than that shit.

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Certainly these allegations ought to be investigated and I am sure they will be.

NDPP wrote:

We agree on the first part. Less so on the second. As for 'conspiracy theories' please remember the vast majority by far are msm driven 'truths' until revealed later as concoctions: 'WMDs in Iraq' or more recently the White Helmet staged fake Douma 'chemical attack' to justify US missile strikes on Syria. 'There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy...'

It is not helpful if we take ourselves out of the conversation by having even lower standards than the MSM in the other direction in terms of the evidence it takes for us to declare we have discovered the truth.

It is not my interest to deefend the credibility of the MSM. I do have an interest in the credibility of alternative places like this. Wild speculation declared truth without any evidence is not helpful.

JKR

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I am sure this speculation is being driven by Iran's communications problems that the country is famous for - bad internet links and a Guard full of corruption which raises many questions of efficiency and competence.

An Iranian friend has told me that incompetent  relatives and friends of the mullahs and other clergy in Iran are given preferential positions in Iran that they are often not suitable for over others who are much more competent but are less connected to the mullahs and ruling clergy class. He says that the incompetent backward "clergy class" in Iran is huge and a horrible drag on Iran's economy and society.

iyraste1313

We agree on the first part. Less so on the second......thanks for this....my point in presenting alternative opinions and theories is precisely this, that there won´t be thorough investigation...there never! is, even when the conspiracy type theory is proven correct!
I just wish that the Iranian community in Canada can be given some suggestion of such potential scenarios!

They deserve at least this!

Of course it will be super difficult to prove one way or another, unless of course some whistleblower comes forth!

kropotkin1951

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I have mentionned this thread to a few Iranians and they think it is shameful and I think you have seen my own follow ups in that regard.

80,000,000 people in Iran but Sean speaks for them all. Anything Sean says is the best truth because he knows people who know people.

Your attempts to steer debate in the direction you want to will never succeed, you can't herd cats because we don't recognize your authority. I think your opinions are no better than anyone else's and seem to be emotionally driven not logically driven.

JKR

iyraste1313 wrote:

False Flag? Fmr CIA Officer Suggests US Hacked Ukrainian Plane Transponder To Provoke Iran Shootdown

Philip Giraldi, a former counter-terrorism specialist and military intelligence officer of the CIA, penned a piece in the American Herald Tribune speculating that the U.S. launched several cyber-attacks, one on an Iranian missile defense system, and another on the transponder of the doomed Ukrainian plane.

Giraldi explains the Iranian missile operator experienced extreme "jamming" and Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752's transponder was switched off several minutes before the two Russian made Tor missiles were launched. 

"The shutdown of the transponder, which would have automatically signaled to the operator and Tor electronics that the plane was civilian, instead automatically indicated that it was hostile. The operator, having been particularly briefed on the possibility of incoming American cruise missiles, then fired," he said.

Giraldi concludes by saying electronic warfare by the U.S. to bring down a civilian jet and blame it on Iran "suggests a premeditated and carefully planned event" to create a false flag for the next world war. .....

....too many people of the highest integrity are suspicious of the source of the plane crash...too many people writing in these threads are attempting to ridicule anything but the Mainstream media! This is political correctness! This is subtle censorship!  

If a US run conspiracy nefariously brought down the plane, why has Iran accepted responsibility for bringing down the plane?

NDPP

Just so it's clear. At this point we don't yet know exactly what happened and nobody here is claiming they do.

However we do know some of the major instigating players have a long and chequered history of making shit up/happen, propaganda and lies to manufacture consent for plans they've already made. Let's not forget the msm/NATO bullshit we were fed about the Viagra crazed rape-soldiers of Muammar Gadaffi, or the US-backed Maidan coup complete with Right Sector Nazis styled as 'The Revolution of Dignity', cheerled by Canadian politicians who  even learned how to Sieg Heil in Ukrainian from Chrystia ('Slava Ukraini!') for the occasion and visiting Ukrainian Nazi dignitaries.

Not to mention more recently those wonderful Nobel prize-nominated, Al Qaeda White Helmeted 'humanitarian-interventionists' Canada rescued from the clutches of the evil, mass-murdering, Russian-backed Syrian dictator,  with the help of Bibi Netanyahu's Israel, that 'light among the nations' and our #1 friend and ally, (who also has a nice loud-mouthed, obnoxious Canadian cheering section to get our politicians to support his evil plans and denounce any and all who won't ). I well recall how we were told  the 'Libyan community' thought this or that at one time too. Ditto the 'Ukrainian community', 'The Syrian community', 'The Venzuelan community' etc etc. So I'll be making up my own mind thank you very much. And if some here find some postings 'shameful', well so do I. Just probably not the same ones they do.

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

We agree on the first part. Less so on the second......thanks for this....my point in presenting alternative opinions and theories is precisely this, that there won´t be thorough investigation...there never! is, even when the conspiracy type theory is proven correct!
I just wish that the Iranian community in Canada can be given some suggestion of such potential scenarios!

They deserve at least this!

Of course it will be super difficult to prove one way or another, unless of course some whistleblower comes forth!

The problem is throwing out stuff does not replace a throough investigation. In fact it only reduces a chance of one as people debate over things that have no foundation.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I have mentionned this thread to a few Iranians and they think it is shameful and I think you have seen my own follow ups in that regard.

80,000,000 people in Iran but Sean speaks for them all. Anything Sean says is the best truth because he knows people who know people.

Your attempts to steer debate in the direction you want to will never succeed, you can't herd cats because we don't recognize your authority. I think your opinions are no better than anyone else's and seem to be emotionally driven not logically driven.

Another ridiculous post from you. Once again you force any logical reader into trying to figure out if you are stupid, or a dishonest arsehole. I have speculated on the latter for reasons you know that I know.

I have discussed a significant variety of opinions and have been relaying the voices of people who have direct access in the language both overseas and here.

You have gone from wild ridiculous theories that NOBODY off this site has been willing to discredit themselves with to trying to attack me for bringing a dose of realism and the actual opinions of Iranians here.

Let me be blunt: the reason I am rough on you is that I do not think you are so stupid as to believe the garbage you write. Therefore I think you are malicious and dishonest.

You know very well that I have not claimed to speak for all Iranians. You also know that I have presented a vatiety of opinions and questioned some of the stuff here - like from people talking about what they think Iranians think when I am actually speaking to them and having stuff translated to me.

You know that I have presented here infomration that I learned, translated to me from Farsi, before it made the English media.

You also know that I have been taking back infomration from this site to get reactions from multiple Iranians here and in Iran.

I watch a variety of media from Iran including government sourced and material produced outside the country both by very biased people and the diaspora. I hear much that is on Telegram groups. This is the tech Iranians use to speak to each other. My sources are wide ranged including people sympathetic to the government at times and those very opposed. They include people who hate the US as much as you do.

I have been bringing - yes second hand (since I do not speak Farsi any more than anyone here)  but not single sourced commentary here to debate with the people bringing nothing thatn whatever gas they produce within themselves and exhaust plus whatever they find on some conspiracy theorist who is speculating or a government of Iran source who is clearly representing a government view.

So given all of that Kropotkin, you extend the level that you can be judged to be an arsehole, a liar or stupid. Just like the investigation is difficult in this case, it is with you. I think there is evidence of what you are but there is this outside possibility that you are in fact stupid instead. 

The logical holeyou find yourself in Kropotkin is your desire to bring mounds of shit here where you claim to speak for Irananins on several points while you attack the only person here who has represented any Iranian points of view that are not leading a political propaganda war from either the government of Iran side of the US side. You calim to speak for the truth and what you know as fact but presume that your knowledge trumps all others including anyone in connection with people who are there.

Somehow you are so fucking arrogant that you can try to shout down a person at least bringing opinions of real Iranians to the conversation becuase these words threaten the sanctity of what you proclaim. You are may be not right wing, but you are every bit of the imperialist prig that you like to accuse others of.

 

Sean in Ottawa

People here are wanting to go down the rabbit hole whatever all kinds of conspiracy theories so implausible as to have been discounted by everyone actually invovled (the Iranian people, their government official statements, any credible observers and  - as well as main steam opinion that is so derided here) including the poeple who would benefit if they were true. Just let that soak in a moment.

Obscure site of paranoia -- like what Babble has become, and been dominated by  -- are the only places clinging to theories that exonerate the regime entirely and propose elaborate implausible explanations (imagined by posters here or others like them on other sites). The Iranian government is probably feeding this process to some degree as we have seen in this thread. And out of 80 million people you can, if you look, find some deluded people. Tough to tell which is which between the last two without looking into who the speakers are. 

The Iranian government has investigated the latest hacking theory here and claim proof that it was not the case. they maintain that it was an accident. Many Iranains are questionning that and believing that it could have been done on purpose "becuase they have done stuff like that before." I have heard that statement from many people. I don't beleive that it was anything more than an accident. But I recognize the seriousness of the accident. I will post to describe why I think this is significant.

 

Sean in Ottawa

As I said above. This does look like a horrible accident brought on by the pressure of fear of American attack in retaliation for a retaliatory attack by the Iranain regime on the Americans.

If this was all it was we could assume that the government would let the light shine in. But it is not.

This tragic accident can expect to be covered inlayers of coverup depsite being unintended. Here is why:

We have to consider some of the aspects of this Regime that played into this.

The dual authority division in the government between Supreme leader and revolutionary gaurd and the elected government.  If you speak to Iranians, they can explain to you how this works and why it is toxic to any normal functionning of government but a critical element of the power structure. Responsibility is placed in the political arm of government. Authority is placed in the Supreme leader and IRG. Many Iranians will tell you that their government structure is unique in having both a dictatorship and an elected government working simultaniously with each other. Normally the IRG plays background roles and security roles (including oppression) and it is not implicated as publicly in government mistakes. Oppression and killings are easy to blame on counter revolutionaries. It is impossible to mount such an argument for people on a plane.

This tragedy is not only massive in the scale of the numbers killed in an instant, it is also massive in the numbers of areas of the Iranian regime implicit in the mistakes. It is also an indictment of the very structure of competing authority and responsibility that speaks to the structure of the country. 

What we are hearing is a series of mistakes by different areas of the government such that no part of the senior government can be innocent or critical of another.

The Guard had a person target the plan who was unable to determine the difference between an airliner that had just taken off and a hostile jet. This raises questions of incompetence that do not rest with the individual who shot the plane down. Tehran is not a backwater. The authority and responsibility to have someone capable of making this determination strikes high indeed. The gaurd also was responsible for systems to determine hostility status for aircraft in the knowledge (that everyone in the coutnry has) that internet communications are poor and even military systems are compromised and affected by the condition of the Iranian government. This was known to the highest levels and ought to have been a prime consideration.

The Iranian military and Guard work closely together. That night was not one of an American initiaed attack. It was of a retaliation at a time of the choosing of the Regime. In other words, if the IRG and local defence authorities were not ready, then the attack could have been delayed. The military had the responsibility to know that the IRG could respond safely. They both had warning becuase it was their attack that night.

The airport had the authority to close and the airline not to fly. There are many reports that they recieved assurances that they were safe. Such assurance would never come from a low level or go to a low level. This implicates a high level in the Guard and airport.

The Civilian Aviation Organization, I understand reports to the elected goverment rather than the guard. It ought to have suspended all flights and closed the airspace imediately once the attack started. It ought to be able to do this without permission of the Guard.

This issue raises questions about either the indepdence, competence of the CAO or their communications with the military and Guard. All these questions strike to the structure of the regime itself. Agian low level decisions being to blame are simply not credible.

The next feature of the Iranian regime exposed here is corruption. Corruption is how you get everythign from a driver's license to a job in Iran. Who you know is important. What you know is irrelevant. Loyalty to the Regime is paramount. Iranaisn when applying for jobs go through elaborate and long testing. This testing is not about their skills: it is about their religious piety (yes many learn how to fake it) and loyalty to the regime. The more decrepit the regime is the more they scrape the bottom of the barrel. It is impossible to imagine that this was not affected by intent or corruption. Intent is an unforgiveable crime and corruption is a feature so widespread that its exposure is an attack on the entirety of the regime. I do not believe intent here as I cannot imagine a benefit to anyone (murder is not beyond the regime as November's experience will show). Intent can be contained. Corruption and the incompetence it causes cannot be contained. The idea that those people all died of greed is a real threat to the regime.

Another problem is that the regime is structurally deteriorating. Iranians do not agree. Some blame the biting sanctions. Some have told me they beleive that the Regime would be crumbling economically even without the sanctions due to corruption. Now here is where things get dirty for Canada. The corruption of the regime involves the massive smuggling of petrochemicals outside the regime and the diversion of the proceeds. as you can imagien this smuggling happens at the low levels of people carrying it across the dessert to sell in jerry cans. (Iran's gas is subsidized and lower than all its neighbours. Very poor people can smuggle it across the border as a job to earn pennies. When the retail price increased in November this caused rioting as this was taken away.)  The significant smuggling is done by those close to the top of the Regime. It leaves not in jerry cans but in trucks and ships. The revenue from its sale does not make it back to the country. It is laundered abroad in countries like Canada. Canada is one of the worst of those countries. The volume is so extensive that the money rolling in to Canada affects our economy. Every Canadian government that shakes its right fist at the Iranian government is raking in the benefits of the laundered money with its left. We profit off Iranian corrpution. We enable it and we keep it in place. Make no mistake about this. Caanda is significant in this. I do not know if it has corrupted Canadians officials individually under the table or the Canadian government over the table but the government does not deal with this. 

Another point that this raises is the issue of communications and competition and even animosity and hostility between branches of the Iranian government. The Supreme leader and the IRG have been determined to take down the present more reformist elected government. The incompetence of it has Iranians not being very defensive of it (like us and the CBC perhaps). the last straw was the removal of the better candidates. Next month Iran will have a hard line government like what they had a decade ago. Maybe worse as some speculate they could even go after the constitution and remove the illusion of the elected government altogether. I suspect they will want to keep it though.

What also makes the civilian analysis is the simplicity of the solutions that were not found. In a city where cell service was working, there is no excuse for a gun battery not to have communications with an airport only a short distance away. All it needed was someone on a cell phone in both places. Low tech could have provided communications where high tech failed. Many civil aviation experts in the world have said that the moment the atttacks were known (which was many hours before) a state of hostilities had been established and known. There is no excuse for the airspace being open to civilian aircraft. The decision was at too high a level for it not to be a threatening scandal. As above, competence is a factor. Competent governments protect themseves from scandals of this magnitude or they often do not survive.

I am hearing that different factions in the Iranain government are competing for survival like ten people in shark-infested waters compete for a lifeboat capable of holding four people. All these competitors only have one play becuase they cannot blame each other without fear.

The fear is the usual thing that you have in these kinds of regimes: everybody has enough goods for mutual destruction of the other person so you cannot easily take down someone without taking down yourself. The regime cannot blame a low level, especially under the glare of gloabal opinion and they cannot take down a high level without risking the foundation. There are poeple there, it is supected, who have mechnisms that in the case of untimely death, their ennemies can be exposed. This rumour goes back 40 years in Iran.

The only play they have is to have enough noise at distance as they can. They can have people who they rely on outside the government to say and cloud the air with enough to tire people out so that the rest of the world will grow weary and the people will focus on other things. The best strategy for this govenrment is endless investigation of impossible conspiracy theories until enough people go away that the  state can get back to the business of making money for its corrupted officials and they can return to the industry of the usual angers and biases.

For Canada, the US and others, this is not a bad plan. this way we can weather the storm of anger and get back to siding with the US and making money out of the laundered proceeds of the money stolen from the Iranian people.

The real consipary is this: it is all the governments, especially the ones who hate each other, acting against the interests of the people.

This story plays out in many places as the same shit, same flavour and same pretence that anybody wants to do something about it.

The real conspiracy here in Canada is that if the government wanted really to do something they could go after the money laundering that is the lifeblood of this regime but brings so much profit to Canada.

I am sorry for the length. I do not know if it is worth writing this given that this place is crawling with other agendas and none have anything to do with the people suffering most.

 

Sean in Ottawa

BTW: a comment from yesterday's memorial in downtown Ottawa. As you can imagine they had the politicians there. So were diplomats including from Afghanistan and Ukraine and the Mayor  of Ottawa and the MP I think from Orleans. Most behaved very well. One I thought was disgusting. The MPP from Carleton to the Ontario government spoke. She is Iranian Canadian. I did not understand her Farsi speech as we were quiet and I obvioulsy could not get a translation. I was later told that it was not great. When she turned to English she spoke most about her governments scholarships which do not benefit that community. I accpet her mentionning it but she went on so long it was embarassing. But that was not the worst thing in my view.

These people died becuase the Americans felt they were avenging one thing (if not helping Trump politically depending on which American you ask), the Iranians were avenging that strike when they shot this plane down.  The Iranians came calling for peace. Not one of the extremely angry Iranians called for war or violence. The Conservative did. She called for people to "smite" those responsible. Even with the anger, it was completely the wrong message at a memorial for innocent victims in a tit-for-tat escalation.

People were asked not to film the Iranian family members sending messages from Iran. Iranian family members have been harassed and intimidated by the Iranian regime to not be invovled in public events and media. This event should have remained above politics becuase the Iranian families for whom it was held for wanted the focus on their lost family members, and becuase association with the kind of views the Conservative put out could have been dangerous for their relatives as well as disrespectful.

Some Iranains went so far as calling for justice. That is very different than calling for more violence which the word smite does.

when I saw she was going to speak, I held an open mind to her becuase she is a memebr of that community. I was disgusted with what she said. Conservatives seem to have a big problem that their MPs only seem to hire rabid partisans who do not give the most basic advice to their politicians about how to fake being a human being becuase it is out of their area of expertise.

The rest of the ceremony was heartbreaking. I had to leave early as I had a committment I could not break but saw the first 2 hours. 

ETA if anything is unlcear from typos in the last few posts let me know and I will fix them... I wanted to get this down and hope it is clear enough.

kropotkin1951

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iyraste1313

The Guard had a person target the plan who was unable to determine the difference between an airliner that had just taken off and a hostile jet. This raises questions of incompetence...

.....this is one theory, the other described by so many is that their systems were jammed, with enumerable anomalies.....

how you can possibly discredit such a theory with so many wrong bits of information is worrisome....not to mention dangerous.......the shooting down of this passenger airline is certainly not the first, the Israeli electronic manipulations causing the Syrians to shoot down the Russian plane, the Canada backed neo nazi militias shooting down the Malaysian plane are examples....shooting down passenger planes as false flags is becoming a weapon or war, and your denial based on misinformation is irresponsible.

Yes a thorough investigation claimed and of course lied by Trudeau is essential, to save lives. These passenger plane shootdowns must be investigated and exposed...

What is likely now to happen, is after Iran is continued to be villified for a time, maybe leading to global and nuclear war confrontations, causing all kinds of weather crises (real crises!), the truth will come out, that in fact the electronics were jammed, the transponder was shut down electronically, the plane takeoff delay was arranged, the plane was directed to return to fly over the Iran missile base, and force landed to crash with full fuel tanks...the US jets were involved in the electronic interference, a technology jointly developed by US/Israel under the coordination of a super CIA spy who claims this shootdown was a false flag....this is a póssibility only, but if it does turn out to be truth as a result of thorough investigation, you can be sure that the CBC and the rest of the CIA infiltrated and corporate/bankster controlled media will not cover it just as they did not cover thge truth, in the other examples mentioned above!

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

The Guard had a person target the plan who was unable to determine the difference between an airliner that had just taken off and a hostile jet. This raises questions of incompetence...

.....this is one theory, the other described by so many is that their systems were jammed, with enumerable anomalies.....

how you can possibly discredit such a theory with so many wrong bits of information is worrisome....not to mention dangerous.......the shooting down of this passenger airline is certainly not the first, the Israeli electronic manipulations causing the Syrians to shoot down the Russian plane, the Canada backed neo nazi militias shooting down the Malaysian plane are examples....shooting down passenger planes as false flags is becoming a weapon or war, and your denial based on misinformation is irresponsible.

Yes a thorough investigation claimed and of course lied by Trudeau is essential, to save lives. These passenger plane shootdowns must be investigated and exposed...

What is likely now to happen, is after Iran is continued to be villified for a time, maybe leading to global and nuclear war confrontations, causing all kinds of weather crises (real crises!), the truth will come out, that in fact the electronics were jammed, the transponder was shut down electronically, the plane takeoff delay was arranged, the plane was directed to return to fly over the Iran missile base, and force landed to crash with full fuel tanks...the US jets were involved in the electronic interference, a technology jointly developed by US/Israel under the coordination of a super CIA spy who claims this shootdown was a false flag....this is a póssibility only, but if it does turn out to be truth as a result of thorough investigation, you can be sure that the CBC and the rest of the CIA infiltrated and corporate/bankster controlled media will not cover it just as they did not cover thge truth, in the other examples mentioned above!

If you think it is not possible to verify and prove this is not true - why are the Iranians themseves saying that they looking into this and that it did not happen? This is what is being report in their domestic media which is certianly not biased in the favour of the US or anyone else.

Sure there are people saying it but they are just a few individuals who want it to be true. Nobody with any credentials or authority is suggesting that this is even possible. 

Sean in Ottawa

iyraste1313 wrote:

The Guard had a person target the plan who was unable to determine the difference between an airliner that had just taken off and a hostile jet. This raises questions of incompetence...

.....this is one theory, the other described by so many is that their systems were jammed, with enumerable anomalies.....

how you can possibly discredit such a theory with so many wrong bits of information is worrisome....not to mention dangerous.......the shooting down of this passenger airline is certainly not the first, the Israeli electronic manipulations causing the Syrians to shoot down the Russian plane, the Canada backed neo nazi militias shooting down the Malaysian plane are examples....shooting down passenger planes as false flags is becoming a weapon or war, and your denial based on misinformation is irresponsible.

Yes a thorough investigation claimed and of course lied by Trudeau is essential, to save lives. These passenger plane shootdowns must be investigated and exposed...

What is likely now to happen, is after Iran is continued to be villified for a time, maybe leading to global and nuclear war confrontations, causing all kinds of weather crises (real crises!), the truth will come out, that in fact the electronics were jammed, the transponder was shut down electronically, the plane takeoff delay was arranged, the plane was directed to return to fly over the Iran missile base, and force landed to crash with full fuel tanks...the US jets were involved in the electronic interference, a technology jointly developed by US/Israel under the coordination of a super CIA spy who claims this shootdown was a false flag....this is a póssibility only, but if it does turn out to be truth as a result of thorough investigation, you can be sure that the CBC and the rest of the CIA infiltrated and corporate/bankster controlled media will not cover it just as they did not cover thge truth, in the other examples mentioned above!

If you think it is not possible to verify and prove this is not true - why are the Iranians themseves saying that they looking into this and that it did not happen? This is what is being report in their domestic media which is certianly not biased in the favour of the US or anyone else.

Sure there are people saying it but they are just a few individuals who want it to be true. Nobody with any credentials or authority is suggesting that this is even possible. 

Sean in Ottawa

The media is often lazy and does not provide verifiable information you can work with. On this story there is a tremendous amount of detail in the media stories. I the poeple touting conspiracy therories not so much some examples:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2020/01/15/if-iranian-troops-really-thought-ukraine-flight-752-was-a-cruise-missile-they-made-a-hail-mary-shot/#4d0f78782270

It’s unclear how the SA-15 operators could have misidentified an airliner as a hostile aircraft, much less a much smaller and faster cruise missile. (See scale drawings below of a 737-800 and a cruise missile.) The 737 was flying on a commonly used departure path from Tehran’s Iman Khomeini airport, climbing to 8,000 feet at a relatively sedate airspeed of 315 mph. Cruise missiles usually fly close to the ground at altitudes under 250 feet, and at speeds of 550 mph and up.

The airliner was equipped with a functioning transponder that would have transmitted a unique identification code, or squawk signal, to the SA-15 if the operators took the proper steps to send out an interrogation signal.

The SA-15 is also equipped with a telescope system that was added to Soviet SAM batteries to allow operators to take aim visually if their guidance radar is jammed. Essentially a TV camera with a large telephoto lens, if one of the soldiers had used it, he would have been able to see the tell-tale blinking navigation lights of the 737.

Another discordant note is that the air defense unit is said to have determined that the object they were tracking was a cruise missile when it was 19 km away. Given the small size of a cruise missile, the SA-15’s search radar isn’t able to produce a stable targeting track to shoot at from so far away, Kopp says. Only a large object like the 737 would.

“When the IRGC leadership say the operators thought it was a cruise missile, it says to an expert that the operators did not understand the limitations of their equipment,” he says.

Given that the SA-15’s role is generally limited to short-range protection around military targets and the limited resources of the Iranian military with the Iranian economy in crisis, it’s possible that the crew hadn’t received much training on dealing with civilian aircraft, says Bronk. “Priority for in-depth training on airspace deconfliction with air traffic control might have been directed to other units operating longer-range [air defense] systems,” he says, like the S-200 and S-300.  

Now if we look at Global Research -- a site that often publishes conspiracy material the article is interesting by really not going far on this. They ask if jamming "made it harder" for the Iranians. In fact the story is really sticks much closer to the story accepted by the Iranian regime.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6395443/iran-plan-shot-down-canadians/

Then this article also from Global Research raises the jamming issue without any mention of the alternative visual sitings of the questions raised about the training and awareness of the crew.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-targeted-ukraine-airlines-flight-752-iran/5700765

As I said before, the jamming question and communications questions ought to be part of an investigation. However, at this point any alternate theory should should address the information that we have rather than ignore it including answer why a visual check was not done and why it did not expose the aircraft as a civilian aircraft. 

kropotkin1951

I love your sources Sean, nothing like going straight to the US imperial media for the real facts. No bias in this reporting, sarcasm alert I actually mean it is unbelievably biased.The technical jargon cannot cover the bullshit spin put out before any real facts are known. Its a good thing that our NATO troops aren't subject to those kinds of war pressures or maybe its just because they are made of stronger stuff than the Iranian soldiers. There is also no doubt these "experts" are of the opinion that America's war machine is not only technically superior but morally superior as well. It made me feel all warm and tinkle and want to kill those nasty enemies.

Iranian air defense forces likely were operating under looser rules of engagement in anticipation of a potential counterstrike to a barrage of missiles Iran had launched hours before against U.S. bases in Iraq. The SA-15 crew also may have been fatigued after being on alert for the five days since Solemaini’s death and were under heavy psychological pressure, knowing that they could well be targeted by the U.S. Air Force, which is given to commencing campaigns by wiping out enemy air defenses like their unit to allow its warplanes to operate with greater freedom.

...

The SA-15 Gauntlet is a system developed toward the end of the Soviet Union, and its controls reflect the makeup of the air defense troops in the country’s conscript army, Kopp and Bronk say, which provided a pool of university students pursuing science and engineering degrees and others with a good basic level of education.

As opposed to the all-volunteer U.S. military, which can design weapons systems with deceptively simple user interfaces that contain a complicated range of options that it heavily invests in training soldiers on, Soviet air defense systems have “a load of buttons and switches on the consoles,” says Bronk, but most do one thing only. [I really loved that comment]

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I love your sources Sean, nothing like going straight to the US imperial media for the real facts. No bias in this reporting, sarcasm alert I actually mean it is unbelievably biased.The technical jargon cannot cover the bullshit spin put out before any real facts are known. Its a good thing that our NATO troops aren't subject to those kinds of war pressures or maybe its just because they are made of stronger stuff than the Iranian soldiers. There is also no doubt these "experts" are of the opinion that America's war machine is not only technically superior but morally superior as well. It made me feel all warm and tinkle and want to kill those nasty enemies.

Iranian air defense forces likely were operating under looser rules of engagement in anticipation of a potential counterstrike to a barrage of missiles Iran had launched hours before against U.S. bases in Iraq. The SA-15 crew also may have been fatigued after being on alert for the five days since Solemaini’s death and were under heavy psychological pressure, knowing that they could well be targeted by the U.S. Air Force, which is given to commencing campaigns by wiping out enemy air defenses like their unit to allow its warplanes to operate with greater freedom.

...

The SA-15 Gauntlet is a system developed toward the end of the Soviet Union, and its controls reflect the makeup of the air defense troops in the country’s conscript army, Kopp and Bronk say, which provided a pool of university students pursuing science and engineering degrees and others with a good basic level of education.

As opposed to the all-volunteer U.S. military, which can design weapons systems with deceptively simple user interfaces that contain a complicated range of options that it heavily invests in training soldiers on, Soviet air defense systems have “a load of buttons and switches on the consoles,” says Bronk, but most do one thing only. [I really loved that comment]

You really make it so that the only possible response to you is to insult you. This is becuase you never engage on content of what someone says. Not fucking ever. Then you get mad when someone gets exasperated and calls you what you actually behave like. You are a bully incapable of debating on a topic-- you go after sources rather than logic, people rather than posts. When you look at a post like this one you do your best to find some track that is obviously completely beside the point.

You drive around the point, not missing it, becuase you never were aiming for it.

This you ignored in your typical style:

"The SA-15 is also equipped with a telescope system that was added to Soviet SAM batteries to allow operators to take aim visually if their guidance radar is jammed. Essentially a TV camera with a large telephoto lens, if one of the soldiers had used it, he would have been able to see the tell-tale blinking navigation lights of the 737."

and this

"The 737 was flying on a commonly used departure path from Tehran’s Iman Khomeini airport, climbing to 8,000 feet at a relatively sedate airspeed of 315 mph. Cruise missiles usually fly close to the ground at altitudes under 250 feet, and at speeds of 550 mph and up."

 

and this

“When the IRGC leadership say the operators thought it was a cruise missile, it says to an expert that the operators did not understand the limitations of their equipment,” 

You ignore all that to make some irrelevant points with your highlights. The fact that the USSR had a conscript army has nothing to do with the fact that it is a conscript army -- except for the possibly issue of the Iranians not having their people trained well enough which was the point being made

You like to distract the conversation so far from where it was originally that you can then simply ignore it while having seemed to have responded to it when you have not.

 

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