United Church of Canada in bed with the CJC

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Ken Burch

As to Jaku's question, I sometimes apply to take leave of my senses, but for some reason I can never get paid leave.

Green Grouch

Debate on the UCC proposals begins today in Kelowna. Friends there say it's tense but that people are looking forward to getting down to the discussion. Lots of predictably ponderous and dumbass finger wagging from the mainstream media is now underway.

Green Grouch

Some good (if misspelled) material on Independent Jewish Voices' site, including a personal account and a copy of the solidarity letter from the World Council of Churches: http://www.independentjewishvoices.ca/

And here's the best news I've had all day: The Canadian Jewish Congress says its relationship with Canada's largest protestant denomination is in jeopardy.

Loretta

Yes, Mr. Farber was on local CBC radio this morning (Kelowna) saying that people are allowed to criticize Israeli government policy but it comments made off the record around the debate, i.e., the suggestion that some MPs are being "bribed" (referred to in the article and which haven't made the floor of the General Council discussion) that is anti-semitic.

Green Grouch

I think the references made in the supporting text of the Toronto Conference petition to Canadian MPs with dual Israeli citizenship are problematic. I disagree with the wording and intent of that and of the reference to MPs being "bribed" by free trips to Israel (I'm guessing MPs don't pay their own way on, say, a trade mission to China). I've written a letter expressing concern; for once I agree with Farber (argh!)-- suggesting that holding dual citizenship with Israel somehow compromises MPs is skating close to an anti-Semitic line, especially if MPs holding other types of dual citizenship are not questioned.

However, we're also talking *four* proposals, not one proposal, all with carefully thought out rationale, and all making reference to Israel's right to exist. Questionable wording needs to be challenged but it doesn't undo the central point of the proposals.

I find Mr Farber's verging-on-hysterical reaction interesting and am hoping it will contribute to the United Church asking some questions about who it partners with and therefore listens to most closely. I think Independent Jewish Voices has already raised similar concerns, and they too are on the floor at the Council meeting.

I'm glad I'm just old enough to remember the start of serious sanctions against South Africa.   So many of the arguments against boycott/ divestment/ sanctions have exactly the same ring and rationale, a quarter century later. I find it puts it in perspective, even if the two struggles are far from identical.

Loretta

Yes, Mr. Farber was on local CBC radio this morning (Kelowna) saying that people are allowed to criticize Israeli government policy but it's comments made off the record around the debate, i.e., the suggestion that some MPs are being "bribed" (referred to in the article and which haven't made the floor of the General Council discussion) that is anti-semitic.

A subsequent comment in the interview by one of the youth delegates who had been to Israel and was supportive of the resolutions was to the effect that the language in the supporting documents was unhelpful however, the issue of Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is the thrust of the resolutions. When asked if the resolutions were harmful to Canadian Jewish relations with the UCC, he likened the approach to that taken with South Africe during apartheid, saying that sanctions and boycotts have been effective in bringing about change. He said, as Christians, we are called to follow Jesus' example, of standing with people who are being oppressed, even when it's difficult to do so.

 

Michelle

I don't know where people are seeing accusations of bribing MPs - could someone please provide a link and a quote, so we can judge the statement for ourselves?

Also: do free, all-expenses-paid junkets er, vacations, er, trips to Israel for MPs in order to influence Canadian foreign policy count as "bribery"?  I don't know what I think myself on that one - perhaps that's a bit of a strong descriptor and probably one I wouldn't use myself, and I'm not sure what the standards are for lobbying MPs so I have no idea if giving MPs free vacations as gifts is standard practice, but I figure that's a fair political question to ask.

Certainly focusing on anyone's dual citizenship as if it makes them less "Canadian" is wrong, no matter what country a person holds dual citizenship with, as far as I'm concerned.  I'd like to see that quote in context, though to see if anyone really said that.  All I've heard is second-hand paraphrasing of it, or sentence fragments pulled and quoted by right-wing, apartheid-supporting editorialists.  And I don't trust them to report anything fairly or accurately.  But if that's what was said, then I agree, it was wrong.

josh

I'm not sure of all the rules regarding these junkets, but they're pretty common.  And certainly not bribery in the legal sense of the word.  Ethically, that might be another matter.  They're usually dressed up as "factfinding missions." 

In calling the four resolutions anti-Semitic, Bernie has clearly gone off the deep end.  Anti-Israel, yes.  But it's no more anti-Semitic than resolutions against South Africa in the 1980s were anti-Protestant.

martin dufresne

COMPANIES TO BOYCOTT

AOL Time Warner
Time Life magazine, CNN, ICQ

Apax Partners
Jonny Rockets, Sunglass Hut.

Arsenal Football Club

Coca-Cola
Fruitopia, Fanta, Kia Orange, Lilt, Sprite, Sunkist..

Caterpillar

Danone
HP foods, Evian, Volvic, Jacob

Delta Galil
Hema, Barbie, Carrefour, Auchan, Tchibo, Victoria's Secret, GAP, Banana Republic, Structure, J-Crew, JC Penny, Pryca, Lindex, DIM, DKNY, Ralph Lauren, Playtex, cK, Hugo Boss, M&S

Disney

Emblaze

Estée Lauder
Aramis, Clinique, DKNY, Prescriptives, Origins, MAC, La Mer, Bobbi Brown, Tommy Hilfiger, Jane, Donna Karan, Aveda, Stila, Jo Malone, Bumble & Bumble, Kate Spade

Home Depot
Villager's Hardware, Georgia Lighting, Apex Supply, EXPO Design Centres

IBM

Intel

Johnson & Johnson

Kimberly-Clark
Kleenex, Kotex, Huggies, Andrex

Lewis Trust Group
River Island, Isrotel hotels, Britannia Pacific

The Limited Inc
Express stores, Lerner New York, Structure, New York & Company, Mast Industries, Intimate Brands, Victoria's Secret, Bath & Body Works, White Barn Candle Company, Henri Bendel

 

L'Oreal
Giorgio Armani, Redken 5th Avenue, Lancome Paris, Vichy, Cacharel, La Roche-Posay, Garnier, Biotherm, Helena Rubinstein, Maybelline, Ralph Lauren, Carson

Marks & Spencer
M&S, St.Michaels

McDonald's

Motorola

Nestle
Nescafé, Perrier, Vittel, Pure Life, Carnation, Libby's, Milkmaid, Nesquik, Maggi, Buitoni, Cross & Blackwell, KitKat, Milkybar, Quality Street, Smarties, After Eight, Aero, Polo, Lion, Felix cat food, L'Oréal

News Corporation
TV: Fox, Sky, Star, Phoenix, Granada, CNBC. UK newspapers: Standard Newspaper, News of the World, The Sun, The Times. Australian Newspapers: The Telegraph , Gold Coast Bulletin, Herald Sun, Independent, Sunday Mail. US newspapers: New York Post. Publishers: Harper Collins Ragan, Zondervan, National Geographical. Nursery World, Rawkus, NDS, Mushroom Records, ChinaByte.com, Festival Records

Nokia

Revlon
New World Entertainment, Forbes

Sara Lee
Hanes, Playtex, Champion, Leggs, Douwe Egberts, Bryan, DIM, Ambi Pur, Bali, Superior Coffee, Just My Size, Kiwi, Maison Cafe, Nur die, Pilao, Lovable, Outer Banks, Wonderbra, Sanex, Pickwick, Gossard, Body Mist, Brylcreem, Aqua Velva, Radox

Siemens

Selfridges

Starbucks
Seattle Coffee, Pasqua, Hear Music, Tazo

Timberland

 

 Please do it - and pass this on to folks in your network.

Green Grouch

Much as I hate to use a National Pest link, here's the PDF link to proposals related to Israel-Palestine (4 out of roughly 105 petitions to General Council) I checked and these are taken directly from the workbooks used at General Council, all of which are posted at gc40.united-church.ca. Pest link: http://www.nationalpost.com/documents/090727-atlantic-commission-peace.pdf The way the Pest has excerpted these makes for easier reading.

Here is the wording that some consider problematic; it's contained in the "whereas", or the research and rationale wording used to support the actual motion that's up for debate. As far as I know, procedural rules still do not allow for debate on the "whereas" text, though it's understood that this text could and perhaps should influence whether or not people support the motion. This wording is *not* part of the motion on which the debate will take place.

"Toronto Conference World Affairs Committee:
ATLANTIC - 70 TOR 9 - Pathway to Peace in Israel/Palestine

......
Questionable positions of Canadian Members of Parliament include:
Members of Parliament have accepted sponsored trips to Israel, which might be called bribes;
some Members of Parliament are affiliated with the State of Israel;
Some Members of Parliament are dual-citizens with Israel and have sensitive roles in Canada...."

 

Green Grouch

A question for Martin-- is this a list of companies that are Israeli and/ or doing business in Israel, or is it a list of companies running operations in the OPT?

I admit that when we talk, I tend to be more concerned about boycotting companies doing business in the Occupied Territories, not in Israel proper. In this or another thread I would welcome Babblin' wisdom about what kind of commercial boycott we should be considering. Maybe that's another thread....

josh

"Members of Parliament have accepted sponsored trips to Israel, which might be called bribes;
some Members of Parliament are affiliated with the State of Israel;
Some Members of Parliament are dual-citizens with Israel and have sensitive roles in Canada....""

Is the latter true?  In any event, it is problematic.  The second one is vague.  The first one should be reworded to avoid the use of the highly charged, and inaccurate, term bribes.

Caissa

Possible thread drift/ Whereas statements historically have been designed as preambles providing background information for motions. Robert's holds that preambles can be amended after any amendments are made to the main motion. My parliamentary has been that whereas statements were usually considered non-debateable and non-amendable and weren't considered as part of the motion that ended up being adopted. I tend to not be a fan of the use of preambles with motions preferring instead for a mover to set forth her arguments as the debate opens./ end of possible thread drift.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Green Grouch wrote:

In this or another thread I would welcome Babblin' wisdom about what kind of commercial boycott we should be considering.

Quote:
Consumer Boycott

Individual consumers can show their opposition to Israel's project by participating in a consumer boycott of Israeli goods and services. A consumer boycott works in two ways: firstly by generating bad publicity for the offender and secondly by applying economic pressure for change.

Aims

Raise awareness among consumers about the consequences of buying Israeli goods and services. Pressurise supermarkets and shops into removing goods with barcode 729 - denoting Israeli origin - from their shelves. Encourage companies who make use of Israeli technology and components to find alternatives and join the boycott. Focus the attention of the world on Israeli occupation and apartheid and expose those who bankroll the Israeli regime; and to foster an environment in which it is unacceptable to promote Israeli policies.

Why

Individual consumers can show their opposition to Israel's project by participating in a consumer boycott of Israeli goods and services. A boycott can also put pressure on companies whose exports are linked to some of the most evident aspects of the Israeli occupation and apartheid.

Agrexco export fruit and vegetables for sale all over Europe and the US under the trade name Carmel. Much of its produce is grown on confiscated Palestinian land in the Jordan Valley, and the Israeli government owns 51% of the company. Jaffa Oranges were famous for centuries before Israelis successfully colonised the Palestinian name along with the city of Yafa.   

Motorola, as well as producing mobile phones, also manufacture wireless data networks for military bases and battlefield communications systems. Much of the cutting-edge technology contained in products such as mobile phones, computers and software is developed in the manufacture of military services and goods. Products developed to meet the needs of the Israeli military have a reputation for reliability, having been tried and tested on Palestinians.

Tel-Aviv is the global hub of a trade with considerable moral and ethical implications having consistently fuelled conflicts, wars and oppression throughout Africa. Many of the globes major dealers use Tel Aviv as the processing point for a trade which makes a major contribution to the Israeli economy. Consumers in Arab countries have begun to raise their voices in recent years. Tired with their US-backed governments, they have taken the isolation of Israel into their own hands - creating enormous losses especially for US producers complicit in the occupation of Palestine. In the West, consumers are growing more and more aware of the products they buy and the food they eat. In the UK a survey conducted in 2005 for the Co-Op bank revealed that over half of the questioned consumers stated that they had avoided buying products from a company on the basis of its reputation. Boycotts are big business, and it is vital that the international public are made aware of the moral and ethical dimension of buying Israeli goods.

Do it yourself

While boycott is an individual act, it becomes only powerful if it is promoted collectively and finds strong support in organizations and movements willing to promote the boycott. It is important that you find allies and choose your targets well. In the primary boycott, consumers boycott products from Israeli companies. A secondary boycott means avoiding goods produced by companies with a significant business interest in Israel or containing parts produced by Israel. It includes boycott of companies whose management uses the profits and the power of the company to promote Israeli colonial policies of occupation and apartheid. Multinationals such as Nestle to Estee Lauder are notable examples of multinationals guilty of lending vital support to the Occupation.

The 'secondary boycott' approach was used successfully by consumers opposing apartheid in South Africa. By the time Barclays' Bank (UK) had pulled out of apartheid South Africa, its share of the student market had plummeted from 27% to 15%. The sheer number of companies involved with the Israeli economy means that for practical reasons, a boycott must focus on strategic targets of particular significance, such as: Produce that is symbolic of its origin from Israel e.g. fruit, vegetables, cut flowers; Companies and individuals who are actively working to promote the Zionist agenda; Companies that can be an easy and global target for their obvious benefit to the Occupation such as Agrexco.

1. Don't buy Israeli goods

This is easier than it sounds and a list of common products from Israeli companies can be found on a series of websites listed in the Resource section. You could also send a letter to the supermarket, the media and local political parties in your country informing them of your decision and the reasons.

2. Identify and lobby retail outlets that stock Israeli goods

Outlets that stock Israeli goods can be lobbied to break off such business relations in response to Israeli policies. You can send letters to local shops and large retailers asking them to de-shelve Israeli products. Find organizations and networks that would be willing to endorse the letter in order to achieve a more powerful effect.

3. Boycott and picket outlets that do not respond to lobbying

Where outlets continue to sell Israeli goods, go a step further and write informing them that you will no longer shop there. Organize a picket of the shop and distribute campaign materials informing people of the BDS campaign.

4. Set up a local campaign and website promoting the boycott

Spread the word about the BDS campaign. Useful material, fact sheets and resources can be taken straight from the BDS website for you to set up your own local campaign. You could also provide a blacklist of outlets in the local area that are refusing to stop selling Israeli goods.

5. Further steps

Organise pickets and blockades of the transportation of Israeli produce; Encourage shop workers, dockworkers and others to refuse to handle Israeli goods; Putting out public information about companies' use of Israeli technology and components; Create a Buycott alternative, promoting ethical alternatives to Israeli goods and reward companies who publicly distance themselves from the Israeli economy with greater levels of trade.

[url=http://www.bdsmovement.net/?q=node/9]Source[/url]

Michelle

josh wrote:

"Members of Parliament have accepted sponsored trips to Israel, which might be called bribes;
some Members of Parliament are affiliated with the State of Israel;
Some Members of Parliament are dual-citizens with Israel and have sensitive roles in Canada....""

Is the latter true?  In any event, it is problematic.  The second one is vague.  The first one should be reworded to avoid the use of the highly charged, and inaccurate, term bribes.

Yeah, I have a problem with those, too.  The first one not so much - I mean, it's an opinion, right?  Personally, I think all-expenses paid junkets/vacations are problematic as well - but I also agree with you that they could be a lot more diplomatic than using language like "bribes". 

But the latter two?  I have big problems with those.  I'm sure that lots of MPs have dual citizenship with various countries, and that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be putting the good of the other country ahead of the good of Canada.  If there is evidence that someone is doing so, bring forth that evidence.  Don't just assume that it might happen because of that.  Last I heard, some of the most stalwart supporters of Israel in Parliament are not citizens of the country.  However, a few of the Jewish women who occupied the Israeli consulate were Israeli citizens.

Green Grouch

Exactly, Michelle. The last point was the one that bothered me most. It smacks of the old (genuinely) anti Semitic canard that Jews weren't aren't REALLY German, or Russian or (insert European nation here) and therefore were disloyal/ a threat and therefore should be viewed with at best suspicion and at worst-- well, we know the rest. Despite what I feel about the CJC's rendering of "anti Semitic' as increasingly meaningless, the fact is there enough anti Semitic crap lingering in Christian and Euro/ white North American thought that we need to be on the lookout for it.

Having said that, I still agree with the actions called for in all of the proposals coming to the UCC and agree with the vast majority of the analysis behind them. But that doesn't free any of us churchies from needing to watch out for racist crap.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Remember the hue and cry that forced Michaelle Jean to renounce her French citizenship when she became GG?

Unionist

I don't know which MPs (if any) are Israeli citizens, but I see nothing wrong with exposing that publicly if it is the case.

In Israel, of course, you can't sit as an elected member of the Knesset if you hold a dual citizenship:

[url=http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1065113.html]Three dual-citizen MKs ordered to annul their foreign passports[/url]

As for junkets, they're not bribes - neither is handing over $1 million to an MP - nor is invited the PM to stay at your luxury chalet any old time they please - unless it's part of an agreement for services to be rendered. Wrong word perhaps - and I say perhaps advisedly.

 

Before the Mast

The American Free Press is probably the only news magazine in North America that has the guts to consistantly criticise and expose the Israel/Zionist lobby and atrocities committed by Israel.

Rights group (Amnesty International) Condemns Israel

[Racist web site links removed, and user banned.]

Gus Williams

Im out west in Calgary this week and the UCC's boycott motion is getting pretty bad press and reaction is similar to what happened after CUPE Ontario passed their ill-advised BSD motion.

As for Farber, well he is doing his job and despite what some may think of him he is pretty good at getting the message out. He is straight forward and people like that.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Gus Williams wrote:

As for Farber, well he is doing his job and despite what some may think of him he is pretty good at getting the message out. He is straight forward and people like that.

Yes, that's what they say about Stephen Harper, too.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Oh yes. Great news magazine.

I particularly like the way they give a podium to the racist British National Party.

And they sell great books like one and one.

[Racist weblinks voluntarily removed by M.S.]

Quote:
The American Free Press is an ultra-right-wing Holocaust denial publication, the successor organization to the "Liberty Lobby," a longtime ultra conservative organization.
[url=http://www.oilempire.us/afp.html]Source[/url]

Gus Williams

Harper is certainly NOT getting the message out. His numbers at best have not moved and in some places have gone down. He is cold, humorless and speaks as though he has icicles in his mouth.

I don't always agree with Farber but he has character and people clearly want to listen to him.

Michelle

You're out west this week, Gus?  What a coincidence - so is the CJC delegation, from what we've seen in the news.  Did they bring their fan club with them or something? ;)

Gus Williams

Michelle, Im in Calgary. Is the United Church meeting here somewhere? Thought they were in Kelowna. I know you Easterners don't know much about the west but last I heard Kelowna was in BC.

Michelle

I know.  I was just teasing you a bit. :)

Gus Williams

Sorry, thought you were geographically challenged  :-)

Michelle

Well, I am, but I do know the difference between BC and Calgary. :)

Diogenes Diogenes's picture

Unionist wrote:

I don't know which MPs (if any) are Israeli citizens, but I see nothing wrong with exposing that publicly if it is the case.

In Israel, of course, you can't sit as an elected member of the Knesset if you hold a dual citizenship:

[url=http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1065113.html]Three dual-citizen MKs ordered to annul their foreign passports[/url]

As for junkets, they're not bribes - neither is handing over $1 million to an MP - nor is invited the PM to stay at your luxury chalet any old time they please - unless it's part of an agreement for services to be rendered. Wrong word perhaps - and I say perhaps advisedly.

Kudos for that post Unionist, the issue of multiple citizenship is entirely germane to honest political leadership in Canada. Disclosure is honesty. There is nothing wrong to expect that of our people in office.

Diogenes Diogenes's picture

Farber wins one ...

United Church drops Israel 'apartheid' wording

Sigh, they even have a picture of this ass-clown in a story about the UCC conference.  He is a master.  DOH! Yell

Diogenes Diogenes's picture

Loretta wrote:

Yes, Mr. Farber was on local CBC radio this morning (Kelowna) saying that people are allowed to criticize Israeli government policy but it's comments made off the record around the debate, i.e., the suggestion that some MPs are being "bribed" (referred to in the article and which haven't made the floor of the General Council discussion) that is anti-semitic.

Farber is concerned about comments made 'off-the-record'?

-Looking for an honest man

Diogenes Diogenes's picture

Loretta wrote:

A subsequent comment in the interview by one of the youth delegates who had been to Israel and was supportive of the resolutions was to the effect that the language in the supporting documents was unhelpful however, the issue of Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is the thrust of the resolutions. When asked if the resolutions were harmful to Canadian Jewish relations with the UCC, he likened the approach to that taken with South Africe during apartheid, saying that sanctions and boycotts have been effective in bringing about change. He said, as Christians, we are called to follow Jesus' example, of standing with people who are being oppressed, even when it's difficult to do so.

I guess it was not unanimous like reported in the CBC.

-Looking for an honest man

josh

"As for Farber, well he is doing his job and despite what some may think of him he is pretty good at getting the message out. He is straight forward and people like that."

 

Agree that's he's good at what he does. Disagree that he's "straightforward."

josh

Diogenes wrote:

Kudos for that post Unionist, the issue of multiple citizenship is entirely germane to honest political leadership in Canada. Disclosure is honesty. There is nothing wrong to expect that of our people in office.

Agree.  If there are any.  And if there are any, they should be named.  Otherwise it's just an unsubstantiated charge.  Some might say, smear.

 

josh

Diogenes wrote:

Farber wins one ...

United Church drops Israel 'apartheid' wording

Sorry to see they dropped the apartheid wording, but I'm glad they dropped the other two clauses.

Star Spangled C...

Diogenes wrote:

Kudos for that post Unionist, the issue of multiple citizenship is entirely germane to honest political leadership in Canada. Disclosure is honesty. There is nothing wrong to expect that of our people in office.

I'm not sure entirely how I feel about the notion of dual citizenship. It's sorta personal for me since I'm a Canadian citizen who has lived in teh States for a long time and my wife and son are both Americans and I'm not and need to decide what to do. But I know tehre are dual citizens of other countries in Parliament. Stephane Dion is a citizen of France because his mother is from there and some people took shots at him for it. And while there's plenty of criticisms one could make of Dion, I don't question his loyalty to Canada and certainly not on the basis of the French citizenship he inherited from his mother. So why question someone with dual Israeli citizenship? Though I don't actually think there ARE any Israeli citizens in Parliament in the first place.

Caissa

I think the motions have the best chance of passing if the inflammatory language is removed. It's all a question of tactics. Now , as a general principle, if you are submitting motions that you are pretty sure are going to fail, inflammatory language may be the route you want to go. It's all a question of what your ultimate goal is in any given situation.

miles

I think that the issue of mps with dual citizenship is a very thorny issue.

 

if we create a blanket rule that you can only have Canadian citizenship and be an mp then ok but i worry about mps who  have citizenship in other countries and a perceieved double standard. for example I know that Mario Silva has dual citizenship, Dion has it,

Omar Alghabra former mp and lib candidate has it with Syria and libby davies with UK and Mike Savage with UK as well as Lui Temelkovski with Macedonia I believe

 

so are all of these mps and candidates to be banned as well?

Star Spangled C...

Of course not! Didn't you know that Israel needs to be held to a different standard than every other country in the world?

josh

I don't think anyone was advocating banning.  Just disclosure.

Caissa

What is the point of disclosure?

josh

An informed public.

martin dufresne

The CJC is losing the Comments vote on the CBC website. Do drop in and opine.

John, did you really mean I'm glad they dropped the other two clauses? Or the contrary?

Caissa

So Josh should all MPs have disclose citizenships they hold? What other disclosures must they make in order to guarantee an "informed public"?

josh

Yes.  Depends.

Caissa

I'm starting to suspect SSC might be partially correct.

I think going down the road where MPs have to make disclosures of citizenship is a slippery slope. What's next sexual orientation, marital status, memberships in voluntary organizations, drug usage? I fail to see the relevancy of citizenships held.

josh

Sheds light on a possible conflict of interest.  The same as possible financial conflicts of interest.

I'm not sure what Canadian law requires in terms of public disclosure for elected officials, but I wouldn't think disclosure of citizenship would be that big of a deal.  I'm not talking about private and lifestyle issues here.

George Victor

 

SSC:

 

"Of course not! Didn't you know that Israel needs to be held to a different standard than every other country in the world?"

 

 

Not too many others in the moral position of Israel, SSC.

 

As for this discussion about citizenship, duality doesn't matter. Mulroney demonstrated the effectiveness of the traditional kind of comprador, who has always appealed to a colonial citizenry.

Max Bialystock

Green Grouch wrote:
Exactly, Michelle. The last point was the one that bothered me most. It smacks of the old (genuinely) anti Semitic canard that Jews weren't aren't REALLY German, or Russian or (insert European nation here) and therefore were disloyal/ a threat and therefore should be viewed with at best suspicion and at worst-- well, we know the rest.

Excellent point, Green Grouch.  I am sick and tired of Jewish "leaders" telling me Israel is my "homeland." 

Winnifred

Max where exactly did Mr. Farber tell you that (Israel mis your home land?

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