Austerity coming to Ontario 3

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Wilf Day

Question 1:
What do you like about the budget?

It gives the NDP leverage, at last. This head-in-the-sand government waited almost five months after the election (Feb. 29) before even setting up legislature committees. Whatever miracle they were hoping for did not happen. Now, they will have to admit they must negotiate. Refusal to negotiate should be presented as such arrogance as to be an affront to democracy. Paul Martin negotiated amendments to his budget. Is Dalton McGuinty less flexible and democratic than Paul Martin?

Question 2:What do you dislike about the budget introduced by the McGuinty government?

First, the shameful freeze on social assistance rates (including ODSP). Second, the dishonest claim that 20% of the deficit cuts -- $4.4 billion -- comes from increased revenues. Cancelling planned tax cuts is NOT increasing revenues. Amendments to actually increase revenues by $4.4 billion, including payments by corporations and the "1%" as well as the other planned real increases, highway tolls, and so on, would be only fair. Third, "a two-year wage freeze, with no incremental increases on the salary grid" for teachers not only freezes rates but takes away existing grid rights. Fourth, longer wait lists for long-term care, with 30,000 Ontarians already on long-term care wait lists, a false economy that leaves scarce hospital beds clogged.

Question 3:

Voting against the budget may force Ontario into an election. Would you support an election at this time?

Yes, if necessary. If we let them refuse to negotiate now, they never will. We should first insist on a process to negotiate changes. Refusal to even meet would be evident arrogance (see question 1.) The media should support the right of the legislative majority to request a democratic process. Then, we can move on to the specifics.

(Continued from thread #2):
http://rabble.ca/babble/ontario/austerity-coming-ontario-2

Gaian

Amazing how the numerically challenged are willing to risk the welfare of people at the bottom of the income scale with a Mulroney-like toss of the dice. Andria should force another election. In the face of polling numbers that have been bettered only by the apparent savagery of Hudak. Right.

Do the numerically challenged really believe that a business-controlled mainstream media would help to turn around the Great Misled at this juncture? How do they imagine the PC's achieved a 40 per cent favourable rating out there in Neverneverland before the budget was introduced?

Sacrificial lambs at the mercy of the Great Misled AND the Revolutionary makes for an ugly sight.

Michelle

Do you ever contribute any posts to babble, Gaian, that don't have passive-aggressive, pissy little insults and attacks on other babblers in it?  Ever?  Just curious.  Do you have to work at being so rude, or does it just come naturally to you?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Gaian, for the last time, do not refer to the general public as the Great Misled. Do not call other babblers "numerically challenged." This is absolutely your last warning. The next time I address your posts in this way, you'll be gone. As for any justification or rationalization for your toxic behaviour, it won't wash and I'm not interested.

ygtbk

Understand that:

a) I have no interest in getting anyone banned.

b) I've never been a mod.

c) I think free speech is a value worth defending, even if the person talking has a different opinion than I do.

Having said that, I do not understand why Gaian is kept on a shorter leash than say {rolls dice} Maysie, RevolutionPlease, and Fidel. Can anyone clarify?

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Can you take this to rabble reactions, ygtbk please?

Gaian

Thanks, ygtbk, but I'm afraid the fix is in. Reality hurts.

ygtbk

Catchfire wrote:

Can you take this to rabble reactions, ygtbk please?

Sure thing.

Sean in Ottawa

At risk of pissing people off--

I would not make the wage freeze the line in the sand. People are hurting badly and unemployment is terrible.

But we would not win an election if we forced one-- likely we would have the Drummond report in full and on steroids with the Cons in power.

My line in the sand would be much more modest and the government could do it to survive:

1) increase income to those on social assistance and disability

2) restore the money to Aboriginal Affairs

3) reconsider healthcare funding that will not cover current needs because the cuts there will affect the sick

Everything else is bad but let's cover the most vulnerable and avoid an election that would make things worse.

Then, let's do better in the next election so we have more influence.

The above is all we could get and to ask for more will get us nothing.

NDPP

Canada's Federal and Ontario's Governments Unveil 'Transformative' Austerity Budgets - by Keith Jones

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/mar2012/cana-m31.shtml

"...the federal Conservative and Ontario Liberal budgets are predicated on the reactionary fiscal framework created by two decades of radical regressive change to the tax system, including dramatic reductions in corporate, personal, income and capital gains taxes and increases in regressive consumption taxes...

The social-democratic New Democratic Party and the trade unions have responded to this week's budgets by issuing ritualistic pro forma condemnations. They have absolutely no intention of maintaining any struggle to mobilize the working class against the ruling class agenda of austerity for the working class and poor - and lavish tax cuts for big business and the rich.

Indeed the Ontario NDP is preparing to provide the minority Liberal government with the votes to pass its budget. As for the unions, the country's largest union, the Canadian Union of Public Employees, has just imposed sweeping contract concessions on City of Toronto workers, including the gutting of job security clauses, thus facilitating the municipal government's agenda of slashing and privatizing city services."

Sean in Ottawa

Glad you are still here Gaian.

And yes we should add long term care to my list above.

I do think that additional investment in LTC would in fact save as much as it would cost.

Gaian

Far, far more. And thank you for your understanding.

Gaian

I need to be able to post here. It's the only forum in which I can find a modicum of understanding for the seriousness of the plight of our species in general, and my granddaughter in particular. So I will never again fall back on a description of the level of understanding on Main Street as the Great whatever.I don't need isolation at this time.

I do hope that my point about the need to keep the situation of the increasingly marginalized and the disposessed in election planning in mind, is well taken, however. I mention it from time to time as fundamental in steering me away from talk of revolution.

Several of Wilf's points are spot on, and the one about "longer wait lists for long-term care, with 30,000 Ontarians already on long-term care wait lists, a false economy that leaves scarce hospital beds clogged," was a personal project for the six years leading to my wife's death in March, 2011. The editorial page editors of two newspapers were very understanding in the face of a barrage of appeals along those lines. Unfortunately, the old psychological safety fallback positiion of denial is universally used not only to calm fears about our mortality, but avoidance of thoughts of infirmity as well. The sad fact about Homo sapiens Ontariocadensis is that only a third of the residents in the dementia ward receive visits from family or friend from Christmas to Christmas. Keep exercising your mind, take vitamins, whatever.

It seems to me that if Andria could win concessions on Long Term Care (the provinces are to receive 6 per cent increases in federal assistance for health care for a couple more years), and at least increases for social assistance matching cost of living increases - and perhaps restoring plans for increased assistance for children - justifies our support for this budget.

The media are already supportive of Andria's reasoned approach, and very critical of Hudak's savagery.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Note to those who believe in formulating policy and strategy according to public opinion polls:

30% of Ontarians support the NDP.

37% of Ontarians oppose the wage freeze.

Even the most crass, calculating opportunist can jettison every trace of political principle and every sense of what is right and what is wrong, and still be able to figure out that the NDP has nothing to lose by opposing the wage freeze.

wage zombie

I guess there aren't as many crass, calculating opportunists in the party as you might have thought.

Wilf Day

Gaian wrote:
Andrea should force another election. In the face of polling numbers that have been bettered only by the apparent savagery of Hudak. Right.

I doubt another election will be necessary, just as every bargaining committee doubts a strike will be necessary. But you can't bargain well without a strike mandate. Should we all be giving Andrea a mandate to call an election if necessary?

The last poll was Hudak 34, McGuinty 30, Horwath 30. The last election was Hudak 35.4%, McGuinty 37.6%, Horwath 22.7%. I'd say we can bargain hard.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

I'm glad you're still here too Gaian, and I hope it will always be thus. You're an important voice here and I'm glad I'm able to read your input. That said, if you care much about the future of our kids, grandchildren, I'm not so sure why you're so quick to insult revolutionary talk.

Solidarity Gaian, I also hope for a better future for all the sheeple.

Gaian

We can demand more for those people living at the subsistence level.

We must ask teachers and doctors to accept what they have. Word from the schoolrooms is that teachers see, daily, those children whose families need more support. They would like to be able to take their accumulated sick leave with them into retirement...and it would save face.
The average Ontario MD is making $100,000 more per year than they did in 2005. The public service does not require so many managerial functionaries, but a cost of living increase should be allowed for.

If Andrea could win concessions along those lines, great...keeping in mind that anyone "seen" (with media help) to be bringing another election to Ontario had better be ready to accept an anger-fed Conservative victory.

Gaian

RevolutionPlease wrote:
I'm glad you're still here too Gaian, and I hope it will always be thus. You're an important voice here and I'm glad I'm able to read your input. That said, if you care much about the future of our kids, grandchildren, I'm not so sure why you're so quick to insult revolutionary talk.

Solidarity Gaian, I also hope for a better future for all the sheeple.

Thanks, RP. If you would care to start a thread in the politics forum we could share ideas on the practicality/dangers of revolutionary action in old Canady.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Gaian wrote:
We must ask teachers and doctors to accept what they have....

Hello, Dalton, is that you?

Quote:
...keeping in mind that anyone "seen" (with media help) to be bringing another election to Ontario had better be ready to accept an anger-fed Conservative victory.

You're saying voters are going to reward Tim Hudak for forcing an election and punish Andrea Horwath for doing the same thing.

Give your head a shake.

 

Gaian

It's shaking at this moment. :)

Sean in Ottawa

The 30% in Ontario is the federal NDP-- not the level of support of the provincial NDP. Let's at least remember that.

 

Life, the unive...

M. Spector wrote:

Note to those who believe in formulating policy and strategy according to public opinion polls:

30% of Ontarians support the NDP.

37% of Ontarians oppose the wage freeze.

Even the most crass, calculating opportunist can jettison every trace of political principle and every sense of what is right and what is wrong, and still be able to figure out that the NDP has nothing to lose by opposing the wage freeze.

 

Uhm, even if those are the right numbers, you get that the reason the NDP has moved up, and Consevatives down is EXACTLY because the Pcs have come out and said they are voting down the budget no matter what and the NDP has instead said they are willing to try to find comprimises and avoid an election if possible, right?  The movement is because they followed the exact opposite of the PC strategy you and others were calling the NDP to follow.  If you are looking for an argument to undermine your argument you just found the perfect one.

Sean in Ottawa

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The 30% in Ontario is the federal NDP-- not the level of support of the provincial NDP. Let's at least remember that.

 

OK-- my mistake-- ther eis a poll showing the *provincial* NDP at 30%.

It is a forum research poll. Shows Libs at 30% and PCs at 34%--

Seats: PC 42; Lib 35; NDP 30. Majority 55. (Frankly I think that interpreting seat counts is usually wrong and tends to exaggerate the support of incumbants-- if both the Cons and the NDP went up the chance of a majority PC government would be greater.

Hard to say what would happen in a campaign or what the final result would be. The PCs have a lot more money than the NDP.

It is also just one poll.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

If you are looking for an argument to undermine your argument you just found the perfect one.

You conveniently ignore the fact that at least 7% of the voters out there are opposed to the wage freeze but do not support the NDP. By voting in the Legislature to make a wage freeze unanimous, the NDP will be missing out on a chance to enlist the support of those 7%.

Read what Wilf Day said at #46 above.

And that's just the crass, calculating, opportunistic argument.

The real reason the NDP should fight the austerity budget is because it's the right thing to do! It just happens to be popular, to boot.

Life, the unive...

Uhm, again you get that by your numbers 63% presumably support the wage freeze.  You also get that you can't assume that all of the NDP vote is against a wage freeze, or that all of the support for the PCs and Liberals support a wage freeze, particularly within the Liberal cohort. Statistics don't work the way you are trying to make them work.  They just don't.  So your 7% number is virtually meaningless statistically to suggest any kind of support for anything.  And again you are ignoring that what is moving NDP numbers seems to be the willingness to find compromise and avoid an election less than 6 months after the last one.

 A wage freeze, with all the hurt out here, it is abslotely not a given that those at the bottom of the economic ladder would support the NDP in an election at all.  Not at all.  Think about all the teachers that voted for Mike Harris.  I know lots and lots of them who did, even the 2nd time around.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

Uhm, again you get that by your numbers 63% presumably support the wage freeze.

Please read this thread before you go making things up. Look at Wilf's post at [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/ontario/austerity-coming-ontario-3#comment-13350... above. The poll says the support for a wage freeze is 47%, and 16% are undecided.

We have two parties in Ontario that support the wage freeze. If they share the 47% and the NDP gets the 37% who oppose the wage freeze, and a proportional amount of the undecided vote, how is that bad for the NDP?

Quote:
You also get that you can't assume that all of the NDP vote is against a wage freeze, or that all of the support for the PCs and Liberals support a wage freeze, particularly within the Liberal cohort.

I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make, but even if you're right, there is obviously room for movement of voters from one party to another during an election campaign on the issue of austerity. For example, if 100,000 public service workers voted Conservative in the last election and are now facing a wage freeze under either a Liberal or a Conservative government, what greater opportunity could there be for the NDP to win them away than by being the only party in the race supporting their right to collective bargaining and opposing a legislated wage freeze and pension cutback?

Or are you prepared to give up entirely on ever being able to change voters' minds? If you're not, then the best time to make them change their minds is when it's demonstrably in their own material interest to do so.

Quote:
And again you are ignoring that what is moving NDP numbers seems to be the willingness to find compromise and avoid an election less than 6 months after the last one.

Well, you don't know that. The poll was conducted less than 24 hours after the budget was announced, and at that point the NDP was far from clear as to whether it would support the budget or not. It could just as well be that people are starting to realize that the NDP is the only one of the three parties that could possibly put up a fight against the austerity agenda (even though it is now apparent that the party has no heart for such a fight). Remember, there are millions of people who will be adversely affected by it.

Quote:
Think about all the teachers that voted for Mike Harris. I know lots and lots of them who did, even the 2nd time around.

That thought obviously terrorizes you far more than it does me. Those hard-core Conservative teachers you mention are already in Tim Hudak's camp and voted for him last election. There are thousands more teachers who voted Liberal or Conservative out of naiveté, or habit, or didn't vote at all, but whose minds are going to be focused pretty quickly by the reality of having their salaries frozen by McGuinty. Buyers' remorse will set in. Who will earn their votes?

Funny how I seem to be the one who sees a positive opportunity for the ONDP, while the perennial party-boosters are suddenly overcome with doom and gloom at the thought of millions of Ontarians starting to look for a party that won't make them pay for the tax cuts and bailouts for the rich!

North Star

Don't write out the Libs yet. The contentious labour proposals aren't in the budget. The NDP will probably strike a deal over the budget which will also probably increase their support. Dalton will later force the hands of the PCs by introducing the wage freezes separately. The PCs will have to support the government on the wage freezes and any back to work legislation in order to maintain credibility as well, conservatives.

Life, the unive...

I"m not a perennial party booster.  I only joined the NDP for the federal leadership race.  But folks like you can't seem to get that if you say something positive, or call out untruths you aren't some kind of sell out or uncritical in our support.  Your assumption of stupidity and lack of thought by anyone who disagrees with you is constant, but somehow if you reflect that mirror back at you it is a transgression in babble moderation land.   I have supported the NDP in the last couple of elections, but that is based on my local candidate.  I helped form the Greens in Ontario after returning from Europe what seems like a lifetime ago now, which I guess it actually was.  Then I watched them be taken over by pro-market Tories with composters.  I am not a big fan of the NDP on many issues, including their kool aid drinking anti-environmental support for the GEA- an issue that means the NDP won't win a single seat in rural Ontario by the way.  But to me they have become the best of a bad lot.  That's hardly party boosting.

You have this simplistic view of how stats work and how most people out here in 3D land are viewing the world these days.  It really isn't worth trying to convince the unconvinciable.  Thankfully much clearer thinking heads than all of us seem to devising NDP strategy.

Sean in Ottawa

M. Spector can you dial it back a little? I am interested in what you have to say but your comments are getting in the way of your arguments. If you are trying to win people over to your conclusion you are going about it the wrong way. I can be moved by sound argument but will dig in when insulted or dismissed-- I am far from the only person here like that.

I think a lot of people see an opportunity here and don't want to squander it with bad timing. You don't have to agree but at least respect that this opinion exists.

Also these are opinions. Just because they are made up does not make them invalid.

Why not address what is being said? How do you think we would win what would be a referendum on public service unions when their position is not only unpopular but inspiring jealousy?

Why are we not trying to move the people first and then have them vote second? The most positive poll we have shows us at 30% with Hudak at 42%. Why do you think we can change that going into an election with fewer incumbents, less money and on the side of an issue where the public is against us?

To me calling a vote now is defeatist. This is what you do when you can't come up with a plan to change the direction of the public conversation. Otherwise why wouldn't you do that and then call the vote under more favorable circumstances?

I agree we should have a bottom line-- we discussed that -- the most vulnerable and some money for long term care. Then a year from now let's force an election on the issue of health care instead of fighting it now over the wages of public servants.

If I were a public servant I'd be terrified of going now because a loss now would mean Hudak and an even worse situation.

The public service unions in Ontario have some very bright communications people-- let's work with them over the next few months and change this dynamic and then hold an election on health care with this neutralized.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Quote:
An interactive voice response telephone poll of 843 people across the province, conducted Thursday, is considered accurate plus or minus 3.38 percent, 19 times out of 20. The poll found that over two thirds of respondents – 68 percent – would like to see corporations pay their fair share to help reduce the provincial deficit, with 19 percent opposed and 13 percent uncertain. Almost as strongly, 58 percent of Ontarians supported returning corporate tax rates to 14 percent and 74 percent said they support raising taxes for individuals earning over $250,000 a year. But perhaps most concerning to the McGuinty Liberals, and most telling for opposition parties, is the fact that 58 percent of Ontarians support taking the issue of fair taxation to a provincial election.

[url=http://ofl.ca/index.php/news/index_in/new_poll_finds_strong_majority_sup... Federation of Labour[/url]

North Star

The OFL is bluffing. Sid Ryan's relations with the ONDP leadership has broken down. This is Sid's usual blustering. The ONDP convention in Hamilton from April 13th-15th has the potential to become poisonous. OFL & ONDP leaderships would rather engage in factional bickering than address the serious issues facing Ontario.

Gaian

Thanks for these posts, North Star. They give me hope that clearer heads such as yours will prevail.

Michelle

M. Spector wrote:

What Andrea Horwath's public opinion poll should have asked:

Would you rather have your wages frozen for two years or have an election?

Would you rather pay more money to keep the same pension benefits or have an election?

Would you rather pay more to renew your licence plates or have an election?

Would you rather see reduced government funding for arts and culture or have an election?

Who should pay for the financial crisis - the unemployed and the disabled, or the rich?

Would you prefer to see hospital construction projects cancelled and have hospital budgets frozen, or have an election?

Would you prefer to have 17% youth unemployment or have an election?

Would you prefer to freeze the minimum wage at $10.25 an hour or have an election?

Would you rather cut 3.44% from the Aboriginal Affairs budget or have an election?

Would you prefer a 3.63% cut in the Environment Ministry budget or have an election?

Would you prefer the expansion of Public-Private Partnerships and more privatization of the delivery of government services or have an election?

Would you prefer that the government abandon its target of a measly 25% reduction in child and family poverty by 2013 or have an election?

Would you rather live in the only Canadian province without an active home energy retrofit incentive program or have an election?

Would you rather have Ontario Northland railway privatized, or have an election?

Would you rather see half a billion dollars cut from education in the next three years or have an election?

Would you rather see cuts in funding for public infrastructure and housing or have an election?

Bonus essay question: How bad would a government have to be before you would want to have a chance to vote for a change of government? In other words, how much money would you be willing to give up and how much suffering would you be willing to see others endure, in exchange for not having to get up off your ass and go to a polling station to mark a friggin' ballot?

I like this a lot.  If you're going to run a push-poll, these are the kind of questions a pro-worker party should ask.

Better yet, do it in a real poll by a real polling organization, and then publish the results.

Sean in Ottawa

Yes it is about the choices you make with what you have.

Of course you need to ask yourself as well what having an election right now means.

Gaian

One can be pretty sure of what it could mean for those without a pot to pee in and no revolutionary urges.

Gaian

Greg Sorbara met with RosarioMarchese at a midtown Toronto coffee shop on Sunday afternoon.

NDP House Leader Gilles Bisson told the Globe he plant to meet with John Milloy, Liberal house leader to explore the budget. "This is not going to be a shopping list of a whole bunch of new spending, but there has to be an equity in how we balance the Budget," Bisson said.

Sorbara simply said that he knows with "absolute certainty" that, as the Globe reported it, "90 per cent of Ontarians are in no mood to go to the polls."

Brachina

I think Andrea maybe getting frustrated with the Dalton government, she's looking for a reason to avoid an election because all three parties are broke as hell, but because Dalton promised to balanced the budget and not to raise taxes he's to fucking broke to offer anything. Its the worst position to be in in a minority parliament. She's sounds tougher, but not to the point of sabre rattling yet.

Dalton needs to raise taxes, his previous promises not too was an act of a fool, he may have screwed himself, given himself no room to move.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Gaian wrote:
Greg Sorbara met with RosarioMarchese at a midtown Toronto coffee shop on Sunday afternoon. NDP House Leader Gilles Bisson told the Globe he plant to meet with John Milloy, Liberal house leader to explore the budget. "This is not going to be a shopping list of a whole bunch of new spending, but there has to be an equity in how we balance the Budget," Bisson said. Sorbara simply said that he knows with "absolute certainty" that, as the Globe reported it, "90 per cent of Ontarians are in no mood to go to the polls."

The most interesting part of the Globe article is the part where they describe the absolutely intransigent stance the Liberals are setting up. They won't consider spending one additional penny. They won't consider raising taxes. They won't consider anything that will postpone their phony timetable for ending the deficit.

Globe wrote:
Mr. McGuinty set the tone for the negotiations on Friday, when he said he is "eager" to talk to the New Democrats about any "constructive" suggestions they might have, as long as they do not involve more money.

"If you come to us with any new spending, that's not on," Mr. McGuinty told reporters. "If you come to us with anything that's going to delay the day on which we balance our budget beyond 2017-18, that's not on."

Don't hold your breath waiting for any meaningful outcome from the negotiations.

Meanwhile, Horwath's plan to use her "opinion poll" to sell Ontarians on the need to jump on the austerity bandwagon to avoid upsetting the 1 percent seems not to be working out quite the way she envisioned it. It seems a lot of people are telling her she can't vote for the budget and has to force an election:

Canadian Press yesterday wrote:
The NDP was "flooded" with 10,000 responses to a toll-free hotline and a website set up to solicit feedback, but the only clear theme to emerge is a lack of support for the budget, Horwath said.

"The responses have been all over the map, so we're taking our time to get that information and think about it seriously," she said. "A lot of people don't want an election, but many, many people think it's worth having one over this budget."

Brachina

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-conditions-on-ontario-bud...

Since no one noticed the link North Report put up in the Ontario Budget 2 thread I thought I'd add it here.

The number of people who have responded is up to more then 30,000 and still growing.

She's also pressing Dalton to increase income taxes, a minor increase, easily sellable as reasonable. Dalton is effectively caught in a pincer. If he gives into Andrea she can brag about it and Tim can have a field day attacking it, if he refuses he looks unreasonable and Andrea can either go to an election or field say a corporate tax increase or a mineral tax increase and it only gets harder to reject them, till she decides to just pull the leg on Dalton's government.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Brachina wrote:
She's also pressing Dalton to increase income taxes, a minor increase, easily sellable as reasonable. Dalton is effectively caught in a pincer. If he gives into Andrea she can brag about it and Tim can have a field day attacking it, if he refuses he looks unreasonable...

But "Dalton" has already drawn a line in the sand at no tax increases, no additional spending, and no delays, as I pointed out above. Want more money for civil service pensions? It's going to have to come out of someone else's budget, like the disabled and poor. Want more money for welfare payments? Then health care is going to have to take a bigger hit. This is his position.

He knows his main competition on the pro-austerity side is Tim Hudak, so he wants to out-Hudak Hudak by being the austerity bully, to keep right-wing support from going all over to the Conservatives. This is the guy Horwath is "negotiating" with. Good luck to that.

Does McGuilty look "unreasonable"? Well, of course he does. He proposed the austerity budget in the first place and is tenaciously defending it. But it hardly makes sense to say, on the one hand, that McGuilty has to look reasonable, and on the other hand, to say that the public is solidly behind the austerity program anyway and will gladly vote for the Conservatives if there's an election.

Either the voters are looking for reasonable or they want vicious. Which is it?

 

Life, the unive...

As could easily be predicted you can't be satisfied.  You say Horwath needs to say something about taxing the highest income earners.  She does just that in order to pay for the things people have identified as a priority.  But that's not good enough.  You have to continue to attack.  Your moving goal posts make your arguments empty vessels. 

Michelle

I saw some of the Horwath's press conference today.  It's a step in the right direction.  I hope she's serious about putting some real changes to McGuinty.  I'll believe it when I see it, but at least she's making the right noises.

Brachina

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

As could easily be predicted you can't be satisfied.  You say Horwath needs to say something about taxing the highest income earners.  She does just that in order to pay for the things people have identified as a priority.  But that's not good enough.  You have to continue to attack.  Your moving goal posts make your arguments empty vessels. 

Agreed.

I think Andrea plans to drag things out abit for the pubicity. There's a reason that they call her,the steel town scrapper (awesome nickname btw).

So any bets on if we will have another election?

I think if Dalton doesn't move, doesn't show a reasonable effort at comprise here were going to an election and as the only one who made any effort to get things done, Andrea could take it, I mean 30 NDP 30 liberals and 34 tories is a three way race is a situation where Andrea comes off as the reasonable one, and the Liberals find themselves trapped by thier own foolishness and Hudak just looks useless.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Brachina wrote:
I think if Dalton doesn't move, doesn't show a reasonable effort at comprise here were going to an election and as the only one who made any effort to get things done, Andrea could take it, I mean 30 NDP 30 liberals and 34 tories is a three way race is a situation where Andrea comes off as the reasonable one, and the Liberals find themselves trapped by thier own foolishness and Hudak just looks useless.

How refreshing to find another babbler who doesn't flatly insist that an election could be nothing but disastrous for the NDP and would definitely usher in a Conservative majority government!

Michelle

Hey, what am I, chopped liver? ;)

Kidding...I agree.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

I did say "another" babbler. I know there are a handful of us around, but the predominant consensus above in this thread and in the Ontario Budget thread seems to be that forcing an election over the austerity budget would bring apocalyptic voter rage down on the heads of the NDP. It's nice to know there are thousands of voters out there who are telling Horwath what the real mood is.

Brachina

Its all in how Andrea plays her cards, if she comes off reasonable, doesn't ask for the moon and Dalton continues to be inflexible, then he'll where it, not Andrea, but the key is don't get angery, not too much sabre rattle until the time is right, appear calm and collected rational and reasonable and either Dalton folds or he's left himself open to defeat.

As for Hudak, the man single handedly marginalized himself and now no one is paying more then 5 seconds of attention to him right now. Just a moron. I heard one right winger suggest that Hudak was just pulling a Jack Layton without understanding the context around.

See when Layton opposed something right off the bat its because he didn't have any other cards to play. During Martin's time as PM Jack,usually didn't have the seats and later Paul wanted and an election and so he cut off dialog.and Jack knew he couldn't go to the public empty handed. Then during Harper's minority time the Liberal's pathetically let Harper treat as a weak majority and got absolutely nothing, and so Harper usually didn't need the NDP so there was no point in trying to make a deal.

But Layton always found a way to keep himself in the limelight some how, like making the Liberal wear it everytime they gave into Harper and came away with nothing.

With Andrea the situation is diffent, she has the Balance of power, she milking it for PR as she should, and Hudak hasn't found away to regain the spotlight, so he's yeah he'll pay for that later.

In fact the most likely path to victory for Dalton is to eat Hudak's vote.

Gaian

Andrea was looking awfully tired on TV yesterday. Exhausted, actually.

I believe it would be a good time for Tom Mulcair to repeat that Ontario's joblessness, like Quebec's, is part of the bigger, changing historical monetary picture of natural commodities like oil doing a number on the loonie.

It's about time New Democrats began framing the bloody picture for a traumatized electorate filled with the hopelessness that Conservatives know how to grow.

Howard

M. Spector wrote:

Brachina wrote:
I think if Dalton doesn't move, doesn't show a reasonable effort at comprise here were going to an election and as the only one who made any effort to get things done, Andrea could take it, I mean 30 NDP 30 liberals and 34 tories is a three way race is a situation where Andrea comes off as the reasonable one, and the Liberals find themselves trapped by thier own foolishness and Hudak just looks useless.

How refreshing to find another babbler who doesn't flatly insist that an election could be nothing but disastrous for the NDP and would definitely usher in a Conservative majority government!

I say bring on the election. This is a very mediocre budget. I don't think even liberals like it. If I were Horwath and McGuinty didn't give me a good reason to vote for his budget, I would keep my voting intentions unknown until the vote.

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