ONT NDP Leader Andrea Horwath will become Premier of Ontario 2

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Rokossovsky

Surely. But here we have NDPrs hammering Horwath for not being "really" progressive for refusing to support consumption taxes, and attacking HST, and supporting corporate taxes instead, as if this in anyway mimics the Conservative position.

It boggles the mind.

Unionist

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist is not "a declared Wynne supporter".  You can't just call anybody who questions Horwath's "strategy" a tool of the Liberals.

Rokossovsky's diligent detective work has off. R. has successfully dredged up the evidence that I like Wynne better than Horwath because Wynne is an out lesbian. And I do! You can't argue with good detective work.

Rokossovsky is also very good at making clear and explicit ONDP promises and positions that the ONDP itself is vague and ambiguous about (corporate taxes, nationalization vs. just not more privatization of Hydro, etc.). This shows clear thinking and certainly no hint of a spirit of McCarthyism aimed at uncovering covert Liberal shills. Be generous, Ken! And in the immortal phrasings of Phil Ochs - "Love me, love me, love me... I'm a Liberal!!"

 

NorthReport

Do it!

There’s a strong case for Wynne to call an election sooner rather than later


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/theres-a-strong-case-for-wy...

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist is not "a declared Wynne supporter".  You can't just call anybody who questions Horwath's "strategy" a tool of the Liberals.

Rokossovsky's diligent detective work has off. R. has successfully dredged up the evidence that I like Wynne better than Horwath because Wynne is an out lesbian. And I do! You can't argue with good detective work.

Rokossovsky is also very good at making clear and explicit ONDP promises and positions that the ONDP itself is vague and ambiguous about (corporate taxes, nationalization vs. just not more privatization of Hydro, etc.). This shows clear thinking and certainly no hint of a spirit of McCarthyism aimed at uncovering covert Liberal shills. Be generous, Ken! And in the immortal phrasings of Phil Ochs - "Love me, love me, love me... I'm a Liberal!!"

You can call yourself a unionist and quote Phil Ochs all day long. Please forgive me for mistaking your statement that "if it came down to it, I'd vote for Wynne for that reason alone," as advocating for Kathleen Wynne. 

 

NorthReport

The latest batch of  Ontario polls, confusing as are, by reading the tea leaves, they are actually saying one thing - the Liberals are going down.

Wynne's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.

Rokossovsky

Exactly! The absurd idea that we can endlessly play "strategic" political games by proping up the odiously currupt Liberals has got to go. Eventually, the right will win, if we continue this course.

If the campaign is all about "Stop Hudak", the "left" better stop humming an hawing, and pick a team with possible upward momentum and try and build on that for the win, not back a seriously wounded party that can only go down.

NorthReport

Cut 'em loose, Andrea - you can do it!

It may take 2 more elections to do it, or maybe only one, but keep doing what you are doing, and you will become Premier!

mark_alfred

Agreed.  Everyone with an ounce or more of progressive ideals should get behind Andrea Horwath for the next election.  Do away with the corrupt Liberals and defeat them and the Tories.

Wilf Day

Skinny Dipper wrote:
Ms. Horwath is the wildcard candidate.  If she becomes the next premier, I will not know what to expect from her.  Will she lead a social democratic government or become Hudak-lite?  I don't know.

Let me give you a clue.

Andrea grew up and spent her whole life in Hamilton, Ontario's strongest labour town. Before getting elected to City Council on the Labour council ticket, she got a degree in Labour Studies and worked in the labour movement, in co-op housing and as a community development coordinator for a community legal clinic (which, in Hamilton, means working for the labour movement wearing different hats.) She started becoming famous in Hamilton in 1996 when she was an organizer of Hamilton's Days of Action campaign against Mike Harris' provincial government cutbacks. At heart she's one of the Women of Steel. If you consider Steel as a strong, militant trade union, that's all great. If you think Steel is a bit more right-wing than some elements in Unifor and CUPE, that's true too. If you think Steel is Tim Hudak-lite, you're insane.

onlinediscountanvils

NorthReport wrote:
PS - this post is dedicated to Unionist, terrytowel,  pookie,  JKR, onlinedis, A24, and debator.

Not sure what this has to do with me, but ok. Thanks.

And by "debator", do you mean [url=http://rabble.ca/users/debater]Debater[/url], who hasn't posted to this board in 13 months?

As Catchfire said [url=http://rabble.ca/comment/1403186#comment-1403186]here[/url];

Quote:
If he is checking in, he is probably chortling with glee at the contingent of babblers who seem obsessed with his opinions, real and imagined.

mark_alfred

Wilf Day wrote:

Skinny Dipper wrote:
Ms. Horwath is the wildcard candidate.  If she becomes the next premier, I will not know what to expect from her.  Will she lead a social democratic government or become Hudak-lite?  I don't know.

Let me give you a clue.

Andrea grew up and spent her whole life in Hamilton, Ontario's strongest labour town. Before getting elected to City Council on the Labour council ticket, she got a degree in Labour Studies and worked in the labour movement, in co-op housing and as a community development coordinator for a community legal clinic (which, in Hamilton, means working for the labour movement wearing different hats.) She started becoming famous in Hamilton in 1996 when she was an organizer of Hamilton's Days of Action campaign against Mike Harris' provincial government cutbacks. At heart she's one of the Women of Steel. If you consider Steel as a strong, militant trade union, that's all great. If you think Steel is a bit more right-wing than some elements in Unifor and CUPE, that's true too. If you think Steel is Tim Hudak-lite, you're insane.

I think Horwath's great.  I don't get the posters here who disparage her.

NorthReport

Talk about naiveté, or maybe more accurately who do you folks think you are kidding?

Try reading Wilf Day's most recent post above as it might clue you in to a wee bit of reality.  

Your revisionist nonsense about Andrea is beyond the pale, and you folks should be ashamed of yourselves.  Jeesh!

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

NorthReport wrote:
PS - this post is dedicated to Unionist, terrytowel,  pookie,  JKR, onlinedis, A24, and debator.

Not sure what this has to do with me, but ok. Thanks.

And by "debator", do you mean [url=http://rabble.ca/users/debater]Debater[/url], who hasn't posted to this board in 13 months?

As Catchfire said [url=http://rabble.ca/comment/1403186#comment-1403186]here[/url];

Quote:
If he is checking in,

he is probably chortling with glee at the contingent of babblers who seem obsessed with his opinions, real and imagined.

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onlinediscountanvils

NorthReport wrote:

Talk about naiveté, or maybe more accurately who do you folks think you are kidding?

Try reading Wilf Day's most recent post above as it might clue you in to a wee bit of reality.  

Your revisionist nonsense about Andrea is beyond the pale, and you folks should be ashamed of yourselves.  Jeesh!

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

NorthReport wrote:
PS - this post is dedicated to Unionist, terrytowel,  pookie,  JKR, onlinedis, A24, and debator.

Not sure what this has to do with me, but ok. Thanks.

And by "debator", do you mean [url=http://rabble.ca/users/debater]Debater[/url], who hasn't posted to this board in 13 months?

As Catchfire said [url=http://rabble.ca/comment/1403186#comment-1403186]here[/url];

Quote:
If he is checking in,

he is probably chortling with glee at the contingent of babblers who seem obsessed with his opinions, real and imagined.

 

Once again... I'm not sure how your comments are related to that quote of mine you highlighted. You certainly didn't do anything to clarify why I'm supposed to be interested in a photo of David Herle and company.

And what exactly am I supposed to be ashamed of?

NorthReport

I like this Leader!

Keep 'm guessing Andrea, right up to the last second, and then pull the plug when the Liberals least expect it. 

NDP Leader Andrea Horwath to consult with public before deciding on whether to prop up Liberal government

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/30/ndp-leader-andrea-horwath-to-con...

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Aristotleded24

Wilf Day wrote:
Skinny Dipper wrote:
Ms. Horwath is the wildcard candidate.  If she becomes the next premier, I will not know what to expect from her.  Will she lead a social democratic government or become Hudak-lite?  I don't know.

Let me give you a clue.

Andrea grew up and spent her whole life in Hamilton, Ontario's strongest labour town. Before getting elected to City Council on the Labour council ticket, she got a degree in Labour Studies and worked in the labour movement, in co-op housing and as a community development coordinator for a community legal clinic (which, in Hamilton, means working for the labour movement wearing different hats.) She started becoming famous in Hamilton in 1996 when she was an organizer of Hamilton's Days of Action campaign against Mike Harris' provincial government cutbacks. At heart she's one of the Women of Steel. If you consider Steel as a strong, militant trade union, that's all great. If you think Steel is a bit more right-wing than some elements in Unifor and CUPE, that's true too. If you think Steel is Tim Hudak-lite, you're insane.

Gary Doer in Manitoba also came from a union background and not only was he no friend of organized labour while in office, but the labour movement in Manitoba has treated this NDP government with kid gloves. They have not been as forceful about anti-labour initiatives brought in by the NDP as they would have been if those same actions were to be carried out by Liberals or PCs, and their political strategy begins and ends with, "let's keep the NDP elected in Manitoba forever and ever and everything will be fine and happy." Just because someone comes out of the labour movement does not automatically mean that (s)he can walk on water, and it's not as if the labour movement itself is immune from corruption or other problems. It's also not unheard of that a politican who starts out great backslides over time.

Rokossovsky

Unionist wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist is not "a declared Wynne supporter".  You can't just call anybody who questions Horwath's "strategy" a tool of the Liberals.

Rokossovsky is also very good at making clear and explicit ONDP promises and positions that the ONDP itself is vague and ambiguous about (corporate taxes, nationalization vs. just not more privatization of Hydro, etc.).

There is nothing at all vague about identifying the precise source of revenue used to expand government funding. Indeed, stating that they will not support increased taxation on lower and middle income earners, in liu of taxing wealth and capital, is a basic socialist "first principle".

You were the one who raised issues of "principle". The principle is clear. How that plays out in a real terms is something else.

You no doubt are trying to make it out, for the sake of argument, that not naming a figure is vague. Yes, It is and intentionally so. In fact, in negotiation it is perfectly legitimate to attempt to force your counterpart to name a figure, in order to set the base line for negotiation "up". Anyone with any experience in negotiation knows that the person who names a figure first, loses.

It is up to Wynne to name her figure. Horwath can name her figure thereafter, or on the campaign trail.

But, the principle of deploying taxes against wealth and capital, instead of upon the lower classes, in order to redistribute wealth, is crystal clear. The ONDP has been consistent in applying this principle, since the last election, and ever since they held the balance of power, resulting in the first ever tax increase agains the wealthy in this province since the 1950s.

NorthReport

 

Whoa!  Tongue out

I could not agree more, both with what is happening in Ontario, and who the total fuck-ups for the Liberals are.

Remember back who were in charge of the LPC when Paul Martin was going to win 250 out of 308 seats. They are still hereeeeeeeeee!

“Polls clear as mud in Ontario”


http://warrenkinsella.com/the-three-horsepeople-of-the-ontario-liberal-a...

The Three Horsepeople of the Ontario Liberal Apocalypse

One mortally wounded the federal Liberals in 2006, one finished the job in 2011, and one engineered the selection of the Ontario Liberal leader who makes Stuart Smith look like a proven winner.

 

 

 

- See more at: http://warrenkinsella.com/the-three-horsepeople-of-the-ontario-liberal-a...

 

http://warrenkinsella.com/2014/04/polls-clear-as-mud-in-ontario/

 

PS - this post is dedicated to Unionist, terrytowel,  pookie,  JKR, onlinedis, A24, debator, josh, summer, ken burch, and skinny dipper.

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14,950

 

NorthReport

Andrea may surprise everyone here.

Regardless, the NDP Leader stands a reasonably good chance of being elected Premier this election. 

Ontario budget 2014: Andrea Horwath and the NDP will shape Ontario's election destiny

Premier Kathleen Wynne's government needs the support of Andrea Horwath's New Democrats if the Liberals hope for their budget to pass and for their government to survive.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-budget-2014-andrea-horwath...

mark_alfred

It'll be interesting to see whether she accepts the budget or not.

josh

"If that happens, Horwath will test her support among her party's rank and file.

Labour is especially nervous at the prospect of a Harrisite government headed by Hudak.

And, some even admit to thoughts of "holding their nose" and voting Liberal to keep Hudak from his dream of becoming Ontario’s 26th premier."

 

Rokossovsky

josh wrote:

"If that happens, Horwath will test her support among her party's rank and file.

Labour is especially nervous at the prospect of a Harrisite government headed by Hudak.

And, some even admit to thoughts of "holding their nose" and voting Liberal to keep Hudak from his dream of becoming Ontario’s 26th premier."

Huh? Labour has been "holding their nose" and advocating support for the Liberals since 2003. In the last election, the ETFO and OSSTF openly supported Liberals in every riding except where there was an NDP incumbent, leading to some noticeable upsets, such as Jonah Schein winning in Davenport, a long time Liberal stronghold.

This bizarre lack of foresight happened right on the coattails of the massive Orange Crush in the Federal election, where it should have been obvious that the NDP was "in play", and gains could have been made backing progressive candidates on the NDP slate, over bench-warmers from the Liberal party. In Davenport Andrew Cash had just become the MP, winning over the Liberal incumbent, so there was no reason not to back the more progressive candidate in a contest between Liberals and the NDP. Even the incumbent Liberal Tony Ruprecht saw this coming, and copped out of the race altogether, leaving the riding open to the NDP.

What did the unions advise? Voting Liberal because it is "strategic." They do this, even in ridings where the Progressive Conservatives are a complete no show, and it is a contest between the NDP and the Liberals. Which I guess goes to show that if the union executive are telling you something is "strategic", you can bet it is not a decision divined political inspiration, but one of a collective imagination dulled by years of looking at fine print.

Sam Hammond, president of ETFO confessed at one point that he was "disappointed" in the Liberal decision to table Bill 115 and impose contracts on teachers, when he had "worked night and day" to get them elected. The president of OSSTF quit his job after surrendering his union during that negotiation and then decamped to the Liberal party where he ran (and lost) in a by-election.

Proposing that "labour" in Ontario is somehow joined at the hip with the NDP is to prove that one stopped reading newspapers (with content) sometime in the 1980s. In fact, the majority of the labour union executive in the top echelons of the unions are card carrying Liberals -- with some exceptions.

What you are swallowing in this article is Liberal "concern trolling" for "strategic votes". And there is nothing new about that.

It's absurd to think that propping up the obviously corrupt and incompetent Liberals is a sound long term strategy. There is nothing "strategic" about engaging in antics that give people like Tim Hudak ammunition to support his claim that the unions are in bed with the Liberals and expect to miss the bullet forever.

Tim Hudak complains that the "Working Families Coalition" runs multimillion dollar partisan attack ad campaigns against him. He is right! On first blush they may appear "non-partisan" but only in the most theoretical sense. When it comes to direct endorsement of candidates, the unions almost always back Liberal candidates, supported by the "non-partisan" TV and radio attack ads against Hudak.

People see this. They are not stupid. It is a mistake for the unions to obsess about getting the "right people" in office at the expense of the good will of the public. Support from the public, not professional politicos in the legislature is what the union movement needs. The public image of unions is bad enough as it is, without adding fuel to the fire by acting like stooges for the Liberal party.

The conservatives are sooner or later going to win an election Ontario, unless there is a viable alternative.

What labour need to do is stop being "nervous" and stop trying to "game the system" and to "fight the right".

If Hudak gets in, they need to be ready to strike, with the support of the public.

NorthReport

You don't sound like you know very much about Andrea.

Perhaps try reading Wilf's post above about her background before you make comments like this.

The Liberals will come in 3rd when all is said and done, because they have seriously mismanaged the province.

josh wrote:

"If that happens, Horwath will test her support among her party's rank and file.

Labour is especially nervous at the prospect of a Harrisite government headed by Hudak.

And, some even admit to thoughts of "holding their nose" and voting Liberal to keep Hudak from his dream of becoming Ontario’s 26th premier."

 

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NorthReport

As I mentioned earlier Andrea is going to surprise people.

And here is one now!

Go Andrea go!

NDP’s Andrea Horwath skips reveal of Ontario’s $130.4B budget

.The big shocker in Thursday's make-it-or-break-it Ontario budget wasn't between the pages, but who didn't show up to read it.

 

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4496659-ndp-s-andrea-horwath-skips-rev...

Aristotleded24

Rokossovsky wrote:
This bizarre lack of foresight happened right on the coattails of the massive Orange Crush in the Federal election, where it should have been obvious that the NDP was "in play", and gains could have been made backing progressive candidates on the NDP slate, over bench-warmers from the Liberal party. In Davenport Andrew Cash had just become the MP, winning over the Liberal incumbent, so there was no reason not to back the more progressive candidate in a contest between Liberals and the NDP. Even the incumbent Liberal Tony Ruprecht saw this coming, and copped out of the race altogether, leaving the riding open to the NDP.

What did the unions advise? Voting Liberal because it is "strategic." They do this, even in ridings where the Progressive Conservatives are a complete no show, and it is a contest between the NDP and the Liberals. Which I guess goes to show that if the union executive are telling you something is "strategic", you can bet it is not a decision divined political inspiration, but one of a collective imagination dulled by years of looking at fine print.

Sam Hammond, president of ETFO confessed at one point that he was "disappointed" in the Liberal decision to table Bill 115 and impose contracts on teachers, when he had "worked night and day" to get them elected. The president of OSSTF quit his job after surrendering his union during that negotiation and then decamped to the Liberal party where he ran (and lost) in a by-election.

Proposing that "labour" in Ontario is somehow joined at the hip with the NDP is to prove that one stopped reading newspapers (with content) sometime in the 1980s. In fact, the majority of the labour union executive in the top echelons of the unions are card carrying Liberals -- with some exceptions.

What you are swallowing in this article is Liberal "concern trolling" for "strategic votes". And there is nothing new about that.

It's absurd to think that propping up the obviously corrupt and incompetent Liberals is a sound long term strategy. There is nothing "strategic" about engaging in antics that give people like Tim Hudak ammunition to support his claim that the unions are in bed with the Liberals and expect to miss the bullet forever.

Tim Hudak complains that the "Working Families Coalition" runs multimillion dollar partisan attack ad campaigns against him. He is right! On first blush they may appear "non-partisan" but only in the most theoretical sense. When it comes to direct endorsement of candidates, the unions almost always back Liberal candidates, supported by the "non-partisan" TV and radio attack ads against Hudak.

People see this. They are not stupid. It is a mistake for the unions to obsess about getting the "right people" in office at the expense of the good will of the public. Support from the public, not professional politicos in the legislature is what the union movement needs. The public image of unions is bad enough as it is, without adding fuel to the fire by acting like stooges for the Liberal party.

The conservatives are sooner or later going to win an election Ontario, unless there is a viable alternative.

What labour need to do is stop being "nervous" and stop trying to "game the system" and to "fight the right".

If Hudak gets in, they need to be ready to strike, with the support of the public.

What this person said.

josh

NorthReport wrote:

You don't sound like you know very much about Andrea.

Perhaps try reading Wilf's post above about her background before you make comments like this.

>

It wasn't my comment. It was from the article that you posted. So put the pom poms down and try reading a little more carefully.

terrytowel

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics tonight and he criticized Andrea saying he doesn't understand her and hasn't for quite a while. The Liberal budget is a budget Andrea herself would have created if she was Premier says Caplan.

He also went on to say he can't understand her logic, wanting to trigger an election when they are at around 20% in the polls. And that she hasn't taken a stand on any of the important issues.

mark_alfred

I'll confess, I myself am sitting on the fence.  Should Andrea pull the plug or not?  I still haven't made up my mind.  Liberals are corrupt, incompetent, and unreliable.  Yet, an election still worries me, given the recent polling numbers.  And the budget doesn't sound terrible, though I really haven't looked at it closely.  Hmm.

Rokossovsky

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics tonight and he criticized Andrea saying he doesn't understand her and hasn't for quite a while. The Liberal budget is a budget Andrea herself would have created if she was Premier says Caplan.

He also went on to say he can't understand her logic, wanting to trigger an election when they are at around 20% in the polls. And that she hasn't taken a stand on any of the important issues.

Caplan said this about the NDPs response to a budget that they have not made a statement on, yet? Interesting. You think he got his talking points before the budget was set down?

I don't see an meaningful increase in corporate taxes in this budget. I see an addition to taxation for people making over 150,000 that would bring in about $600 million, something which I am sure is acceptable, and a promise to close a loophole that allows corporations to low ball their tax rate at a certain rate is ok too, for another 50 million -- but that is chump change in comparison to even a tiny 1% increase in the corporate rate, which would net 800 million.

How can Caplan say that Sousa's budget is one that Andrea would write, if it ignores her explicit demand for an increase in the base corporate rate? As for "important issues", what are those? Certainly not selling off Ontario Hydro for 10 Billion -- that's irrelevant.

In other news are we really supporting increases in wages for home care workers for seniors so that we can save money by throwing seniors out of their hospital beds, which seems to be the upshot of Deb Mathews comments on "home care" for seniors.

Quote:

Health Minister Deb Matthews noted it can cost $1,000 a day to tend to someone in a hospital so home care is a more economical option that has the added bonus of being preferred by most seniors.

Matthews said there is a $1.50 hourly increase retroactive to April 1 and, provided Sousa’s budget passes, another $1.50 April 1, 2015, and the final $1 on April 1, 2016.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/04/29/tax_hikes_loom_in_budg...

josh
Rokossovsky

Another step would be an increase in corporate taxes.

Of course, none of this would be on the table were it not for the ongoing demand from the NDP to increase taxes on wealth and capital.

The further 1.5% corporate tax cut promised by the Liberals, seems to have been put on permanent hold.

Lord Palmerston

Rokossovsky wrote:
But, the principle of deploying taxes against wealth and capital, instead of upon the lower classes, in order to redistribute wealth, is crystal clear. The ONDP has been consistent in applying this principle, since the last election, and ever since they held the balance of power, resulting in the first ever tax increase agains the wealthy in this province since the 1950s.

Bob Rae increased the top marginal tax rate to 53.2% (combined federal/provincial) when he was premier.   And this kicked in on incomes above around $65,000.  Rae was far better on "taxing the rich" when he was premier (though obviously he's moved to the right since then).

The Liberals are now hiking taxes on the top 2% and have outflanked the ONDP who deemed only the top 0.2% to be wealthy.

NorthReport

Gosh Josh, the Liberal Toronto Star thinks the Liberal budget is the cat's meow!. 

I mean wow!

NorthReport

Brilliant strategy Andrea!.

Keep 'em guessing, and then surprise them when they least expect it.

 

Quote:
Seconds before reporters started filtering into the lockup where we could study the Ontario Liberals’ proposed budget for the next year, the woman of the hour announced she wouldn’t be along.

New Democratic Party Leader Andrea Horwath, in whose hands the minority government of Premier Kathleen Wynne rests, had bailed out. She’ll share what she thinks Friday, she said in a written statement. For the moment, she’s mum.

 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/plays+Liberals+roll+left+leaning+budge...

NorthReport

The right-wing Liberals and Conservatives and their mainstream press lackeys are sure freaking out over the possibility of a Horwath-led NDP government.

It is quite the onslot out there, but fortunately nost voters have tuned those losers right out.

 

Yes!

Andrea Horwath breaks new digital ground with one million views on Facebook

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1334099/andrea-horwath-breaks-new-digita...

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Gosh Josh, the Liberal Toronto Star thinks the Liberal budget is the cat's meow!. 

I mean wow!

Yeah, Walkom's a real Liberal hack.

Rokossovsky

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:
But, the principle of deploying taxes against wealth and capital, instead of upon the lower classes, in order to redistribute wealth, is crystal clear. The ONDP has been consistent in applying this principle, since the last election, and ever since they held the balance of power, resulting in the first ever tax increase agains the wealthy in this province since the 1950s.

Bob Rae increased the top marginal tax rate to 53.2% (combined federal/provincial) when he was premier.   And this kicked in on incomes above around $65,000.  Rae was far better on "taxing the rich" when he was premier (though obviously he's moved to the right since then).

The Liberals are now hiking taxes on the top 2% and have outflanked the ONDP who deemed only the top 0.2% to be wealthy.

Ok, the first tax increase in 23 years.

Since then Conservatives and Liberals have all delivered tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy.

The NDP has been "outflanked" because the Liberals delivered a budget designed to comply with their demands, and make it difficult for them to maneuver.  I am perfectly happy to have the Liberals competing with the NDP for tax increases to the rich.

You seem to be blaming the NDP because the Liberals only agreed to an increase on the top 0.2% in the last budget. If the Liberals really meant to ding the top 2% they were welcome to do so, as it was the Liberal budget. As I recall, it was a fight over ending further corporate tax cuts, and the implementing the first income tax increase to the wealthy in the last 23 years.

This time out, Horwath's opposition to increases to lower and middle income earners is not, as some are saying, a reiteration of Tim Hudak's "anti-tax" rhetoric, but clearly an effective strategy that is slowly shifting the discourse from "taxes in general", which is the right wing line, back to "who is being taxed", which is a bedrock left framing of the tax debate, and what we want.

Horwath's staunch opposition to further consumption taxes, fees and income tax on lower and middle income people, and support for increased discipline of the corporate sector, seems actually to be quite effective, in an incrementalist kind of way.

She wont get credit for that of course.

 

Rokossovsky

josh wrote:
NorthReport wrote:

Gosh Josh, the Liberal Toronto Star thinks the Liberal budget is the cat's meow!. 

I mean wow!

Yeah, Walkom's a real Liberal hack.

Not really, but even the best of us are getting confused with all the rhetoric going around about how the NDP "are the same" as the Liberals, or even to the right of them.

Let's bury that canard. It is the NDP that is moving the agenda left. And that stands regardless of how awful they might be if they achieved power. For the first time in a generation there is a fight at Queens Park about how much to increase taxes on wealth and capital, not how little.

This budget didn't just appear because the Liberals are particularly progressive, nor did Kathleen Wynne. 3 years ago, the Liberals were still set on a tax reduction target down to 10%.

Andrea was right to take the day off. This budget requires serious consideration and not set piece ideological rhetoric. She needs to be very careful here not to make the mistake Jack Layton made in 2006, toppling the budget on trivial details that the public does not understand. Andrea is not having any of Wynne's "in camera" discussion on the budget this time. Everything will be publically stated, in clear terms so the public knows the score. That is the right way to do it. That is how Layton got trapped in 2006.

From here she might demand a 1% increase on the corporate taxation rate and get 0.5%, and claim credit for that. The Liberals are in serious trouble and the last thing they want is an election, so Andrea still has breathing room before she calls the game of chicken off, is she decides to.

If the NDP can get the Liberals to swallow even a small tax hike to the corporate sector, the NDP will have successfully been the instrument that has backed off the austerity agenda in this province, without even getting elected. That is a pretty traditional role for the NDP, and not a bad thing.

Skinny Dipper

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics tonight and he criticized Andrea saying he doesn't understand her and hasn't for quite a while. The Liberal budget is a budget Andrea herself would have created if she was Premier says Caplan.

He also went on to say he can't understand her logic, wanting to trigger an election when they are at around 20% in the polls. And that she hasn't taken a stand on any of the important issues.

I will agree with Gerry Caplan that the Liberal budget is a budget Andrea herself would have created.  However, I will only agree that this is a budget that Ms. Horwath would have proposed as an opposition leader.

If Andrea Horwath were the premier of Ontario, I think she would be hitting hard against many government services and public servants.  She would be implementing a deficit reducing budget.  This would anger unionized public employees.  Then again, if she becomes the next premier, she will do so without having the vocal backing of the union leadership who will have backed the Liberals.  She doesn't owe the unionized public servants any favours.  For example, with respect to the teachers, the imposed austerity "contracts" ends this August.  I do think that if she becomes the next premier, she will just extend the austerity for another 3 years.  She will impose another "contract" on teachers through legislation.

Andrea Horwath as premier will be very different than Andrea Horwath as opposition NDP leader.

Rokossovsky

Skinny Dipper wrote:

terrytowel wrote:

Gerry Caplan was on Power & Politics tonight and he criticized Andrea saying he doesn't understand her and hasn't for quite a while. The Liberal budget is a budget Andrea herself would have created if she was Premier says Caplan.

He also went on to say he can't understand her logic, wanting to trigger an election when they are at around 20% in the polls. And that she hasn't taken a stand on any of the important issues.

I will agree with Gerry Caplan that the Liberal budget is a budget Andrea herself would have created.  However, I will only agree that this is a budget that Ms. Horwath would have proposed as an opposition leader.

If Andrea Horwath were the premier of Ontario, I think she would be hitting hard against many government services and public servants.  She would be implementing a deficit reducing budget.  This would anger unionized public employees.  Then again, if she becomes the next premier, she will do so without having the vocal backing of the union leadership who will have backed the Liberals.  She doesn't owe the unionized public servants any favours.  For example, with respect to the teachers, the imposed austerity "contracts" ends this August.  I do think that if she becomes the next premier, she will just extend the austerity for another 3 years.  She will impose another "contract" on teachers through legislation.

Andrea Horwath as premier will be very different than Andrea Horwath as opposition NDP leader.

That's all speculative. What evidence is there to support that? The NDP bent over backwards to do the bidding of the leadership of ETFO when the Liberals were trying to pass Bill 122.

I think the antagonism between the NDP and unions is way overstated. There is a kind of stand off here, and I agree they are not "tight", but you can hardly expect the NDP to take up radical positions against the Liberals on behalf of the unions, when the leadership of the union isn't asking for that.

All the way through the Bill 115 thing ETFO/OSSTF were trying to patch things up with the Liberals, while at the same time rocking the boat. But they didn't want to sink it.

If the unions had gone to the NDP, that would have been a major break, and that was, and is not the "strategy". The strategy was to get rid of McGuinty and get the "pro-education" former Education Minister, Kathleen Wynne elected as leader of the Liberal party.

So what was the NDP supposed to do? An intervention on behalf of the members, against the explicit desires of the union leadership?

Where was that supposed to come from? Who was going to articulate a better line for the NDP to use?

I think the NDP is out at sea on this issue, because they are not getting any direction on it.

Rokossovsky

Maybe they will now:

Quote:
TORONTO, ON - May 01 2014 — Today the Ontario government presented a budget carefully designed to distance itself from the agenda of austerity and restraint it has been following for the past two years. But while a softer tone and a few olive branches might entice some voters and pacify some critics, austerity is alive and well in Ontario when it comes to public education, according to Paul Elliott, president of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation (OSSTF/FEESO).

“This budget does nothing to restore the shortfall created by inadequate funding through the Grants for Student Needs (GSNs) announced in March,” said Elliott, referring to the annual grants that provide funding for all Ontario school boards. “For our members, this means that the compensation cuts imposed in 2013 have been unilaterally extended by the government well beyond the end of the agreed-upon two-year term. By keeping our members frozen on the pay grid, the government is setting the stage for unnecessary conflict between OSSTF/FEESO and local school boards in September.”

http://m.osstf.on.ca/MR-May-01-2014

 

Rokossovsky

CAW still doesn't want to get out of bed. Is this the end of the "Working Families Coalition"?

http://www.unifor.org/en/whats-new/press-room/unifor-ontario-budget-dese...

Rokossovsky

So what is the NDP supposed to do with that? Tell Unifor that they don't know what their membership wants? 

NorthReport

If the newpaper headlines are any indication it sure appears that the Liberals are freaking out:

Liberal Toronto Star: Andrea Horwath might have to defeat her dream budget.

 

 

Aristotleded24

Rokossovsky wrote:
For the first time in a generation there is a fight at Queens Park about how much to increase taxes on wealth and capital, not how little.

I'll take that. We've had an NDP government in Manitoba for 15 years, and increasing taxes on the better off has never seriously been on the table once. Tax increases came in the form of a broken promise to not raise the PST and the PCs are benefitting on the basic anti-tax position, and stand a good change of being elected in a couple of years.

terrytowel

We are going to the polls! Andrea just annnounced she wants an election

"I have lost confidence in Kathleen Wynne and her ability to deliver," Horwath said Friday.  "I cannot in good conscience support a government that people don’t trust anymore."

"This budget is not a solid plan for the future. It's a mad dash to escape the scandals. It's time for change. We do not support this government any longer."

NorthReport

Andrea surprises again, and mops the floor with the hostile right-wing reporters at her amazin' presser.

Over to you Tim.

 

terrytowel

NorthReport wrote:

Not so soon. The PCs have a say in this as well.

They have already said it all. They said even before the budget was tabled they wouldn't support it and wanted an election.

And Andrea said "It's time for change."

What else could she mean?

NorthReport

Not so quick. Andrea does not have a majority government yet.

All Andrea said is that she cannot support this corrupt, incompetent, misleading, government that promises the moon, but does not walk the talk any longer.

As Andrea said "Wynne can't build a raft, let alone a ship".

But the PCs have a say in this as well.

It sure looks like Andrea has finally removed the Bob Rae stench in Ontario.

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15,900

NorthReport

Andrea is full of surprises. Keep em guessing Andrea.

Wynne is now so confused she just cancelled a CBC call-in scheduled for today. Laughing

Liberals will place third, and two political parties will be holding leadership contests right after the next election in Ontario. 

terrytowel

NorthReport wrote:

two political parties will be holding leadership contests right after the next election in Ontario. 

Yeah if Ontario Green Party leader Mike Schreiner doesn't at least win one seat, that party will definately be looking at a change to try to attract more supporters.

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