Ontario 2011 Election Campaign 3

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edmundoconnor

nicky wrote:

Incidentally, I was polled last night for the second time by the Hudak campaign in Toronto Centre of all places. What gives?

Nicky, I could give you answer about improving their woeful 2010 result to establish themselves as the main rivals to the Liberals, but honestly? I think the robo-call organizer is a Crowe fifth-columnist. I am only half-joking.

Ciabatta2

From the perspective of listening to it on the radio, I thought Hudak had some very effective moments early on, but his attempts at sincerity got old and he really got frazzled when McGuinty went after him on the xenophobia angle.  For the first half an hour he was great.  For the next 30 minutes he was so-so.  By the end, I suspect most had tuned out.  Once he got into his smart-meters-are-a-tax-machine stuff it was all over for him.  That works for a guy liek Rob Ford but people expect someone like Hudak to be a bit smarter.  I thought that the fridge-magnet line was very funny but it was obviously planned so that takes away from the humour.

I liked that Horwath was the only one to make a joke and have a couple of chuckles.  She seemed to care the most and the most empathetic.  She did well at differentiating herself form the other two, although a few of her answers sounded more nervous than the other two.  She seemed the most human but I agree with KeyStone that some of her anecdotes were a bit suspicious and I thought her constant repeition of putting ______ first was very tiresome and takes away from her natural-born sincerity.  She oozes it.  Repeating planned messaging until it is stale doesn't work for someone like her.  If she had said 'blank cheques' once more it might end up being her new nickname.

McGuinty was pretty reliable, I thought he did very well although this was likely a much easier debate for him than taking on Howard Hampton and John Tory so that knocks the bar down a few notches.  Him going all the way back to the Rae years a couple of times was incomprehensibly desperate.

In all, Horwath B+, McGuinty B/B+, Hudak B-/C

I thought a few of the questions were too similar, and the guy who said "I think it's fair to say that no one is talking about big vision in this election" or something to that effect is ...well...I won't post it here, but it was a jackass of a question and shouldn't have been in the debate.

As usual, Paikin found a way to make himself the star.  He shouldn't be wading in assessing whether a question was answered.  That's not your role in this format, it's anything but your TVO fiefdom.  I know that he's tried to make "roll tape" his signature line but give me a break.  The fact that he's the go-to moderator for the country speaks to our paucity of good television journalists.

janfromthebruce

I believe that physical presentation matters and I agree the purple tie was a poor wardrobe choice. I found it distracting and out of place - now I understand why - right out of the "Father knows Best" era Kiss

MegB

How could anyone vote for someone who consistently uses his three year old daughter as a campaign prop?  It's creepy, and speaks to the kind of "family man" Hudak is.

It's Me D

I'm not an Ontario resident and I didn't watch the debate but I was speaking with my grandmother in Ottawa yesterday after the debate and she - not a particularly political person - was extremely impressed by Horwath, who she hadn't really been aware of before the debate; keep that up and we might see some unexpected results on election night!

Sean in Ottawa

Hudak looked like Rowan Atkinson's evil, unfunny twin gleaming car-sales smiles while dripping all-to-evident hypocrisy.

McGuinty looked paternal not quite getting that the people of the province are grown up enough to see through the misrepresentations, fudged facts and false optimism. He came across as more caring than Hudak but just as out of touch.

Horwath did look good landing some key concepts, particularly the wastefulness of giving corporations tax cuts without any requirement to create jobs.

NorthReport

The NDP are finally about the to shed the dismal Bob Rae legacy in Ontario. 

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/provincialelection/article/1...

 

edmundoconnor

Andrea and the ONDP come out strongly for ARL electrification. Another nail in the coffin for the Liberals in Davenport and YSW.

edmundoconnor

Ontario Liberals: where if you've got something good to say, say it 1,810 times in less than a 24-hour time-span.

NorthReport

It has taken a long, long time to clear out the Bob Rae trash.

 

Let's choose our NDP leaders a little more wisely in the future. Hopefully we NDPers and supporters learn from our mistakes we made way back then.  

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/provincialelection/article/1...

“Isn’t that guy your federal leader now?”

—NDP Leader Andrea Horwath to Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty after he mentioned Bob Rae at the Ontario leaders’ debate

Free at last, free at last, thank the political gods, almighty, they’re free at last!

Or so it would appear after Ontario New Democrats saw the name of their former leader Bob Rae invoked but once Tuesday at the crucial election leadership debate, and dismissed by current boss, Andrea Horwath, with an easy laugh.

For going on a generation, New Democrats have all but campaigned in sackcloth and ashes, repenting to scornful voters for the sins — real, imagined or exaggerated, but in all cases legendary — of the Rae government, dead now these last 16 years.

But if the debate was any clue, if improved polling numbers for the NDP mean anything, if the generally favorable reaction to Horwath’s debate performance is any indication, liberation from that burden is finally at hand.

“Memories fade,” observed Henry Jacek, a McMaster University political scientist. “Now, Rae is seen as a federal Liberal leader. It’s almost as if Bob Rae the NDP premier never existed.”

Any criticism of Rae by Premier Dalton McGuinty now blows back in Liberal faces, Jacek said.

“Rae was always a Liberal at heart, which was probably why he had such problems as premier.”

adma

Rebecca West wrote:

How could anyone vote for someone who consistently uses his three year old daughter as a campaign prop?  It's creepy, and speaks to the kind of "family man" Hudak is.

Well, he has the "alibi" of her recent illness.  But I know exactly what you mean: and it goes double for turning Deb Hutton into a passive "political wife and mom".  Almost like some 50s misogynist fantasy of taking a strong, independent woman and "taming" her through marriage, etc...

Lord Palmerston

But what specifically is the NDP rejecting about the Rae legacy?  Last time I checked my MPP, Rosario Marchese, was still defending the Rae government under which he served as Minister of Culture.

howeird beale

nicky wrote:

Also from the Ipsos poll (although no actual numbers provided):

 

With the NDP leader performing so well compared to expectations, it is interesting to note that one in ten (14%) viewers say they changed their mind about who they were going to vote for as a result of what they saw tonight, with the NDP appearing to be the biggest beneficiary among those who viewed the debates and reportedly switched their vote.

 

I cant believe this piece of bullshit spin didnt hit me right away. 14% isnt "one in ten" its one in SEVEN:

100 divided by 14 = 7.14285714

howeird beale

This might be a really exciting poll, but you have to sift through some bullshit to get it:

52% of those surveyed didnt even watch the debate, so really, the survey is about preference of leaders, and puts the difference between McGuinty, Hudak and Horwath as a 5 point race    !!!

 

"The poll, which surveyed 1,000 people online after the debate Tuesday and into Wednesday, found 29 per cent of respondents picked McGuinty as the best performer, 27 per cent chose Hudak, 24 per cent picked Horwath and the rest were not sure. Angus Reid said the results are considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

Almost one in five — 17 per cent — watched the full 90 minutes, 31 per cent caught parts and 52 per cent didn’t tune in."

 

Good news for Andrea, Ridiculous that they'd try to pass this off as a debate reaction poll.

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1061607--horwath-has...

 

 

Krago

I got robo-push-polled by the Liberals last night.

It was a robo-call from 'Public Opinion Research' asking me how I was going to vote in the upcoming provincial election.  When I pressed '2' for NDP, the next question asked me 'how important is the Ontario government's leadership on Green energy?'.  I'm pretty sure if I had selected PC, it would have asked me a different question.

edmundoconnor

Leading question, much, Krago? Wow. The Liberals are really punching below the belt now.

Olly

So Krago, if you're voting NDP, you obviously responded to that question by saying Green energy isn't that important to you?

Stockholm

What you are describing sounds like it could be a classic example of "push polling". You get a call, you think its a "poll" and the call says its from "Acme Public Opinion". It asks you how you would vote - I guarantee you will never see the results actually published anywhere since that is not the point - and then if you say NDP - you then get an earful of propaganda designed to give you doubts about the NDP etc...There is nothing wrong with parties conducting polls. There is not even anything wrong with them testing their arguments etc...but what is totally unethical is when they create the fiction of it being a poll when in fact its really just about getting people to listedn to their campaign sound bite or as a vehicle for spreading innuendo.

The classic example of push polling was in the Republican primary in South Carolina in 2000. Every single GOP primary voter in the state got a robo-call from some fly by night so-called polling company asking people if they planned to vote for George W. Bush or John McCain. If you said McCain, you got a follow-up question that said "John McCain has an illegitimate child who is half black, do you still intend on voting for John McCain?" There was never any actual "poll" - it was just using the veneer of a poll to spread lies about McCain.

 

I wonder if the Ontario Liberals will start resorting to similar tactics.

Krago

From what I read about the 1990 Ontario Provincial Election, the wheels didn't really fall off the Liberal bus until they came out with their last-minute promise to cut the Provincial Sales Tax.  It was such a ridiculously transparent vote-buying scheme that voters felt that they were being taken for chumps.  Liberal supporters fled to the NDP and rest is history.

Liberals promise house calls

edmundoconnor

A chicken in every pot, a doctor in every house.

Stockholm

Here are the full details on the Angus Reid post debate poll. Horwath really aced the debate!

http://www.angus-reid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/2011.09.29_Ontario_...

JeffWells

I'd like to see what Liberal internal polls are showing. Their campaign smells of scrambling and near desperation since the debate, and of pandering to NDP support.

OnTheLeft OnTheLeft's picture

Surely we must be in store for a new poll or two as the debate has taken place and the election campaign winds down.

Hopefully we'll see another orange surge.

bekayne

howeird beale wrote:

This might be a really exciting poll, but you have to sift through some bullshit to get it:

52% of those surveyed didnt even watch the debate, so really, the survey is about preference of leaders, and puts the difference between McGuinty, Hudak and Horwath as a 5 point race    !!!

 

"The poll, which surveyed 1,000 people online after the debate Tuesday and into Wednesday, found 29 per cent of respondents picked McGuinty as the best performer, 27 per cent chose Hudak, 24 per cent picked Horwath and the rest were not sure. Angus Reid said the results are considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

Almost one in five — 17 per cent — watched the full 90 minutes, 31 per cent caught parts and 52 per cent didn’t tune in."

 

Good news for Andrea, Ridiculous that they'd try to pass this off as a debate reaction poll.

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1061607--horwath-has...

 

 

It was a debate reaction poll, the question was:"If you had to pick only one leader, who do you think won the debate?" (debate watchers only)

Howard

Liberals should be careful what they wish for in attacking the NDP, according to the Angus Poll, PCs are 5x more likely to switch their vote NDP than Liberal. That same poll says the Liberal base is solid. As such, it would be in the Liberals interest to attack the PCs, to try and drive more of their support to the NDP. The Liberals are more at risk from the PCs than the NDP in most ridings. Furthermore, in some ridings the NDP needs the PCs to draw Liberal support to slip up the middle. Attacking the PCs may prevent bleeding of Liberal support from the Liberals to PCs (preventing NDP wins from 3-way splits) and encourage bleeding of PC support to the NDP (making it easier for the Liberals to win in head-to-head competitions with the PCs).

At the same time, the NDP can more easily enter into a coalition with the Liberals post-election than the PCs can. So now might be the time for the Liberals to start negotiating behind the scenes, but those negotiations could be complicated if the Liberal air war gets too intense against the NDP in the last days. If I were the NDP and the Liberals were calling me, I would not show up to chat if the Liberals were attacking me to fiercely in public. The priority would be putting out those fires as opposed to chatting with Liberals.

bekayne

Howard wrote:

Liberals should be careful what they wish for in attacking the NDP, according to the Angus Poll, PCs are 5x more likely to switch their vote NDP than Liberal. That same poll says the Liberal base is solid. As such, it would be in the Liberals interest to attack the PCs, to try and drive more of their support to the NDP. The Liberals are more at risk from the PCs than the NDP in most ridings. Furthermore, in some ridings the NDP needs the PCs to draw Liberal support to slip up the middle. Attacking the PCs may prevent bleeding of Liberal support from the Liberals to PCs (preventing NDP wins from 3-way splits) and encourage bleeding of PC support to the NDP (making it easier for the Liberals to win in head-to-head competitions with the PCs).

That's an interesting number in the poll. It could be that people are either for or against the government & are set in their views. The difference between the McGuinty Liberals & the Harper Conservatives playing the game of "managing" the anti-government vote is that there is not enough of a gap between the government & the 3rd place party, so it has more potential to backfire.

edmundoconnor

If we are in a minority situation, then expect road-to-Damascus/death-bed conversions to NDP policy planks.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

[url=http://rabble.ca/columnists/2011/09/progressive-public-policy-ontario-el... Magazine and rabble.ca still pushing "strategic voting" to stop Hudak![/url]

edmundoconnor

I am not even approaching surprised that Alice Klein decides to continue pushing the 'strategic voting' canard even after the May election when it was comprehensively debunked by events.

She veers dangerously close to being a Liberal apologist, scolding the NDP for trying to ameliorate the impact of a tax that shifts costs from businesses to consumers. A tax that shifts the burden from business onto the shoulders of those often least able to afford it is regression in its purest terms. Klein seemingly has never stepped beyond her downtown Toronto environs. To take a nearby example, in York South--Weston, there are many people who are working on the minimum wage who rely on their car to get to work. The TTC doesn't go where they need to go when they need to get there. And this is not even talking about people who live in the many, many places in Ontario which do not have any kind of public transit. Apparently they are supposed to sit back and take it.

As are people in the North, whose votes and opinions apparently do not count in Klein's world. We should attempt to win votes in the North?? Shock, horror! She seems genuinely bothered by the fact that their votes count just as much as votes cast in Toronto do.

Klein persists in the quaint idea that progressives need 'permission' to vote NDP – it is something apparently only allowed under very special circumstances. Following that reasoning, the NDP would never have won SRR and SSW in May, to name but two ridings.

In most of the rest of the GTA, where the Tories are hoping to extend their reach, a vote for the NDP is likely to help Hudak

This would be news to Jagmeet Singh and voters in BGM.

I certainly won't vote for a party that decided plans for public transit could be tossed aside for political expediency, that treats the North as a quasi-colony to be plundered for gain, that is hopelessly wedded to plans for expanding nuclear when nuclear power station construction is always over-budget and late, and that is eager to dismiss all criticism of its green policies as the work of hopeless throwbacks or their witless allies.

Finally: "green gaffes"? That's a phrase that Warren Kinsella would be proud of.

Aristotleded24

Edmund, being from Western Canada, I love to trash the "Toronto elite media" as much as anyone else, and having lived in a smaller centre for most of my life, I understand how people in smaller communities feel about their concerns being over-ridden by larger issues. Especially so in Northern Ontario, which in many respects is closer to Manitoba than Toronto, and that Thunder Bay rightly belongs in Manitoba as far as I'm concerned. Additionally, this talk may end up helping Hudak, as people will see the NDP not as a separate party but as a junior partner in propping up McGuinty. I read your post, and there is one thing that crossed my mind:

You get it. You understand.

Excellent post! Not bad for a Toronto elitist! Wink

Sean in Ottawa

Interesting point about Northern Ontario. I have long felt that Canada and Northern Ontario would have been better off had the original boundaries of Upper Canada been Ontario's boundaries and that the Northern addition gone to Manitoba or been an independent province.

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

Would not surprise me if there were not an NDP surge coming in the days ahead.

Not sure the Liberals can do anything about it now-- an attack acknowledges it and would be likely ineffective.

That said there are some dirty tricksters on that team I think so who knows what is in store. But sometimes dirty tricks backfire. Hope the NDP are looking out...

NorthReport

If true, call her on it on her own website!

M. Spector wrote:

[url=http://rabble.ca/columnists/2011/09/progressive-public-policy-ontario-el... Magazine and rabble.ca still pushing "strategic voting" to stop Hudak![/url]

OnTheLeft OnTheLeft's picture

FWIW:

"Something is rotten in Davenport - and it smells like the Grits' withering chances in the riding.

After holding the area for 30 years with the retiring Tony Ruprecht, first in the old Parkdale riding and then the reconstituted Davenport, the Liberals are struggling in the west-end community as the October 6 showdown looms.

The Libs caught a whiff of the changing air during this spring's federal election, when NDPer Andrew Cash, a musician and former NOW writer, defeated three-term Grit MP Mario Silva with twice as many votes. Until then, Davenport - a multi-ethnic riding where Portuguese is the mother tongue of almost a quarter of the residents, half the people are immigrants and unemployment sits at 7 per cent - had been held by the federal Liberals since 1962.

The NDP candidate, Jonah Schein,  a social worker and former community organizer with Social Planning Toronto and The Stop Community Food Centre, took a run at Cesar Palacio's municipal seat in 2010 and lost by 1,300 ballots. "This isn't a short-term project," Schein explains, sitting at a folding table in his Bloor West campaign office. "Building a movement is exciting, it feels great, all that stuff. But it takes time, total commitment and structure."

A recently released Forum Research poll shows NDP support in the riding, home to iconic neighbourhoods like Bloordale, Bloorcourt, Brockton Village, the Corso Italia and part of Little Portugal, at 50.5 per cent, trailed by the Liberals (34.1), Conservatives (9.7) and Greens (4.5). To put things in perspective, though, the provincial NDP is generally skeptical about this poll's methodology."

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=182925

howeird beale

bekayne wrote:

 

It was a debate reaction poll, the question was:"If you had to pick only one leader, who do you think won the debate?" (debate watchers only)

 

When I wrote this a.m. it was based on the Star article, which was unclear, not the PDF from Angus.

If I'm sarong, I'm so sari.

adma

From observation, seems to me that the NDP's crossed a threshold into "confident" ad-buys--not unlike the federal party after Laytonmania set in.

Indeed, it seems like Horwath's succeeded in a manner that's parallel to yet distinct from Layton: by accentuating the positive--the NDP as a "happy party", so to speak--and the debate brought that out.  (Interesting how different that is from Rae in '90, who came across as more "serious" than "happy".)

Boze

Quote:
Horwath selected the anti-HST fight as her hallmark issue from the start, and this rang alarm bells. The Liberals had set up targeted rebates for the most vulnerable when they implemented the unpopular new tax, and respected, poverty-aware economists like Hugh Mackenzie affirmed these would indeed protect low-income earners. She knew that, but couldn't resist the vote appeal.

HMMM.

Krago

Labour-commissioned poll predicts close race in Sudbury

 

The poll found "convincing leads" for the NDP in five of the nine ridings surveyed.

In particular, NDP incumbent Cheri DiNovo had a 15% advantage over her nearest competitor in Parkdale-High Park, while the NDP was also leading in Trinity-Spadina, Timmins-James Bay and Beaches-East York.

The previous poll showed DiNovo trailing her competitor.

The poll results also show an 8% advantage to the NDP in York South-Weston, which is currently held by a Liberal incumbent.

The NDP are in neck-and-neck races in Bramalea-Gore-Malton, Sudbury and Thunder Bay-Superior North, the poll shows.

Lens Solution

I think it's pretty likely that York South-Weston will be going NDP.  That one seems to almost be locked up.  Probably Davenport too.

Life, the unive...

It seems to me a whole bunch of marginals are coming into play.  I am guessing we are going to see some very close three way races in previously unexpected places, such as my own riding of Huron-Bruce.  I am hearing from people usually not very political that they are fed up with the other two parties and they seem to be leaning NDP.  If it is happening here, it must be happening elsewhere, although of course we have a particualarly strong NDP candidate who could easily move onto the front benches.  Still it seems reasonable to me that something is happening out there.  I don't think it is 1990, but something is changing.

Krago

The OFL polled in nine ridings.  Five show NDP leads and three are neck-and-neck.

I wonder what is the ninth riding?

Aristotleded24

OnTheLeft wrote:
Quote:
Horwath selected the anti-HST fight as her hallmark issue from the start, and this rang alarm bells. The Liberals had set up targeted rebates for the most vulnerable when they implemented the unpopular new tax, and respected, poverty-aware economists like Hugh Mackenzie affirmed these would indeed protect low-income earners. She knew that, but couldn't resist the vote appeal.

Horwath won't go there. And unfortunately, her anti-HST campaign only set the stage for the party's larger green retreat.

The NDP's promise to eliminate the HST on hydro and home heating bills along with a reduction on gas is the best known of its anti-green vote-grabs. Not such a big price for a party committed to halting nuclear and funding public transit, you may say.

But the cost of these rebates would remove hundreds of millions of dollars that could be spent on green retrofits for those with low incomes or targeted to those many who really need assistance. Most importantly, this kind of thinking shrinks away from helping us see the reality of the dangerous time we live in.

So now is the time to get practical. If you're heading to the polls in downtown Toronto, feel free to indulge in an orange crush. In most of the rest of the GTA, where the Tories are hoping to extend their reach, a vote for the NDP is likely to help Hudak, so hold your head high and give McGuinty a thumbs-up instead.

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2011/09/progressive-public-policy-ontario-el...

Wow. This attitude feeds the perception of the "out of touch, elitist, latte-sipping lefties in their ivory towers". Woo the rebates, a few hundred bucks or so from the province. Please. Flat taxes, such as the HST, are usually championed by Wall Street deregulation conservatives (Steve Forbes et al) and it's perplexing that "progressives" are defending it.

The HST is also similar to VATs being introduced in places like Greece as part of government austerity measures.

OnTheLeft OnTheLeft's picture

Quote:
Horwath selected the anti-HST fight as her hallmark issue from the start, and this rang alarm bells. The Liberals had set up targeted rebates for the most vulnerable when they implemented the unpopular new tax, and respected, poverty-aware economists like Hugh Mackenzie affirmed these would indeed protect low-income earners. She knew that, but couldn't resist the vote appeal.

Horwath won't go there. And unfortunately, her anti-HST campaign only set the stage for the party's larger green retreat.

The NDP's promise to eliminate the HST on hydro and home heating bills along with a reduction on gas is the best known of its anti-green vote-grabs. Not such a big price for a party committed to halting nuclear and funding public transit, you may say.

But the cost of these rebates would remove hundreds of millions of dollars that could be spent on green retrofits for those with low incomes or targeted to those many who really need assistance. Most importantly, this kind of thinking shrinks away from helping us see the reality of the dangerous time we live in.

So now is the time to get practical. If you're heading to the polls in downtown Toronto, feel free to indulge in an orange crush. In most of the rest of the GTA, where the Tories are hoping to extend their reach, a vote for the NDP is likely to help Hudak, so hold your head high and give McGuinty a thumbs-up instead.

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2011/09/progressive-public-policy-ontario-el...

Wow. This attitude feeds the perception of the "out of touch, elitist, latte-sipping lefties in their ivory towers". Woo the rebates, a few hundred bucks or so from the province. Please. Flat taxes, such as the HST, are usually championed by Wall Street deregulation conservatives (Steve Forbes et al) and it's perplexing that "progressives" are defending it.

The HST remaining on home heating, hydro, and gas costs those who are struggling financially a lot of money, as they end up paying for most of it as a greater percentage of their income, as opposed to those who are not struggling. The HST is a business-friendly tax, pitched that way from the get-go:  a flat tax which charges everybody the same, regardless of your ability to pay. If removing this tax from essentials concerns some, that somehow providing relief for working-class people is not "green", than I have doubts about those defending this tax that hits the working poor hard, as opposed to Horwath who is at least trying to lessen the burden. 

And strategic working doesn't work. The only wasted vote is when you don't vote for what you truly want and support, and compromise yourself by embracing the "strategy" of voting for the "lesser evil", to stop the "greater evil." Well, my "strategy" is to vote for the party which makes social justice a priority, as opposed to those who tell us not to waste our vote while championing corporate tax cuts and doing Bay Street's bidding.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Totally agree, OntheLeft, nice post.

NorthReport

Stock, thanks for your well thought out post from a now closed thread.

There is nothing "neo" about Rob Ford or Tim Hudak (or even Harper for that matter). They are all very old-fashioned classic Canadian rightwingers that are from a mould that has existed for generations. FYI: the term "Neo-con" actually has a very specific meaning. It refers to group of intellectuals (Podhoretz, Midge Decter, Jeanne Kirkpatrick etc...) in the US who used to be Democrats but who switched to the GOP during the Reagan years because they were obsessed with wanting a more hawkish foreign policy and going head to head against the Soviet Union. They typically had little or nothing to say about domestic political issues. The neo-cons of today are again rightwing foreign policy wonks who concern themselves totally with the so-called "war on terror" and tend to be very pro-Likud when it comes to the Middle East.

If there is evidence that Rob Ford or Tim Hudak are adherents to this movement - I'm all ears.

 

Boze

Aristotleded24 wrote:

OnTheLeft wrote:
Quote:
Horwath selected the anti-HST fight as her hallmark issue from the start, and this rang alarm bells. The Liberals had set up targeted rebates for the most vulnerable when they implemented the unpopular new tax, and respected, poverty-aware economists like Hugh Mackenzie affirmed these would indeed protect low-income earners. She knew that, but couldn't resist the vote appeal.

Horwath won't go there. And unfortunately, her anti-HST campaign only set the stage for the party's larger green retreat.

The NDP's promise to eliminate the HST on hydro and home heating bills along with a reduction on gas is the best known of its anti-green vote-grabs. Not such a big price for a party committed to halting nuclear and funding public transit, you may say.

But the cost of these rebates would remove hundreds of millions of dollars that could be spent on green retrofits for those with low incomes or targeted to those many who really need assistance. Most importantly, this kind of thinking shrinks away from helping us see the reality of the dangerous time we live in.

So now is the time to get practical. If you're heading to the polls in downtown Toronto, feel free to indulge in an orange crush. In most of the rest of the GTA, where the Tories are hoping to extend their reach, a vote for the NDP is likely to help Hudak, so hold your head high and give McGuinty a thumbs-up instead.

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2011/09/progressive-public-policy-ontario-el...

Wow. This attitude feeds the perception of the "out of touch, elitist, latte-sipping lefties in their ivory towers". Woo the rebates, a few hundred bucks or so from the province. Please. Flat taxes, such as the HST, are usually championed by Wall Street deregulation conservatives (Steve Forbes et al) and it's perplexing that "progressives" are defending it.

The HST is also similar to VATs being introduced in places like Greece as part of government austerity measures.

 

And VATs that exist already in places like Norway and Sweden that generate a lot of revenue for the treasuries that are used to fund social programs.

The HST isn't great but we should recognize that what's making it not great are that the cash transfers are not enough and not universal.  For anybody receiving the full refund, "a few hundred bucks" four times a year is quite a lot of money and more than shields them from the tax shift.  It's not the tax itself that's bad if you spend it on direct cash transfers back to the population.

howeird beale

OnTheLeft wrote:

Rabble article wrote:

The NDP's promise to eliminate the HST on hydro and home heating bills along with a reduction on gas is the best known of its anti-green vote-grabs.

 

OnTheLeft OnTheLeft's picture

Alice Klein wrote:

The NDP's promise to eliminate the HST on hydro and home heating bills along with a reduction on gas is the best known of its anti-green vote-grabs.

So now is the time to get practical. If you're heading to the polls in downtown Toronto, feel free to indulge in an orange crush. In most of the rest of the GTA, where the Tories are hoping to extend their reach, a vote for the NDP is likely to help Hudak, so hold your head high and give McGuinty a thumbs-up instead.

This is such a shameless plug for McGuinty, what you'd expect to read on the Huffington Post.

howeird beale

RevolutionPlease wrote:
Totally agree, OntheLeft, nice post.

 

Absolutely

 

OnTheLeft wrote:

Rabble article wrote:

The NDP's promise to eliminate the HST on hydro and home heating bills along with a reduction on gas is the best known of its anti-green vote-grabs.

 

Yeah, this is really gross. Its like some poor minimum wageworker getting on the bus and being told "Sorry this is a deisel rather than a hybrid, so you have to pay double fare 'cuz its a dirty bus."

If a minority gets in the people have to push ALL of these buggers on the environment, but not over home heating. The NDP is not without influence from some dirty industries and their unions.

The fact that we have yet to put ONE wind turbine off the Scarborough Bluffs is an utter disgrace. I've kayaked on Lake Ontario. There's wind power there alright

And there's a very common sense reason to shut down nuclear: IT'S A LOSER. All this BS about the costs of clean energy... what's the nuke debt as a percentage of the provinces accumulated debt? 20%? more?

OnTheLeft OnTheLeft's picture

howeird beale wrote:

The NDP is not without influence from some dirty industries and their unions.

Not the dirty industries but their unions and that's okay, because despite the fact that they work in a dirty industry, we shouldn't turn our backs on these workers.

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