Ontario budget , 2012 - thread #3

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Fidel

ygtbk wrote:
 (The $570 million number has always been a fantasy.) This is 1/20th of what could be raised by taking the provincial portion of HST to 10%, bringing us back to the combined federal/provincial sales tax level we had in 2005.

According to economist Erin Weir, Informetrica calculated the "$570 million estimate using Statistics Canada's Social Policy Simulation Database and Model (Version 18.1)"

janfromthebruce

well Howard, I would hope that other NDP MPPs stood with the leader and voted the same way - it's called solidarity.

ygtbk

Fidel wrote:

ygtbk wrote:
 (The $570 million number has always been a fantasy.) This is 1/20th of what could be raised by taking the provincial portion of HST to 10%, bringing us back to the combined federal/provincial sales tax level we had in 2005.

According to economist Erin Weir, Informetrica calculated the "$570 million estimate using Statistics Canada's Social Policy Simulation Database and Model (Version 18.1)"

I'll see your Erin Weir and raise you a Kevin Milligan, since no details of the Infometrica calculations are available:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0App-Y0SS83SndDlTYlRKY01qVTB...

Look at cell D82, then D85. Even assuming no behavioural response the ONDP estimate is high: assuming a reasonable behavioural response (I can't believe I just said that about an assumption that came from Paul Krugman) it's high by a factor of two.

Since it looks like we're going to run the experiment in real life I guess we'll find out who's the better economist.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

ygtbk wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

How does a 2% surcharge on income above $500,000 cost an extra $3,120 to someone making $600,000??

Has McGuilty said what he's going to do with the money? Pay down the deficit?

There's a surtax in Ontario. The 2% talking point number is actually 1.56 * 2% = 3.12% in real life.

In other words, the Star was wrong to call it a 2% surtax. It's a 2% increase in the tax rate, which is then subject to the existing surtax of 56%.

The Star has now updated their article to say, "...with all proceeds going toward paying down the $15.2 billion deficit."

So the one thing that Horwath was successful in prying out of McGuilty will not do anything to benefit the victims of his austerity program. It will all go to the bondholders and Bay Street high rollers who have been financing the provincial deficit. 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

janfromthebruce wrote:

well Howard, I would hope that other NDP MPPs stood with the leader and voted the same way - it's called solidarity.

...based on the time-honoured principle that when the leader surrenders to the enemy, so does everyone else.

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:

ygtbk wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

How does a 2% surcharge on income above $500,000 cost an extra $3,120 to someone making $600,000??

Has McGuilty said what he's going to do with the money? Pay down the deficit?

There's a surtax in Ontario. The 2% talking point number is actually 1.56 * 2% = 3.12% in real life.

In other words, the Star was wrong to call it a 2% surtax. It's a 2% increase in the tax rate, which is then subject to the existing surtax of 56%.

The Star has now updated their article to say, "...with all proceeds going toward paying down the $15.2 billion deficit."

So the one thing that Horwath was successful in prying out of McGuilty will not do anything to benefit the victims of his austerity program. It will all go to the bondholders and Bay Street high rollers who have been financing the provincial deficit. 

 

Yeah but it's at least lowering the debt by some paltry amount.  Liberals and Tories same old stories are bought and paid-for hirelings whose job descriptions are to increase the debt on behalf of Bay Streeters and bond salesmen not stop or even lower it. 

The new business plan is this:

debt = wealth creation

And public debt is considered premium debt. The ONDP are throwing a fuck into "wealth creation" in Ontario albeit a small one.

 

ygtbk

M. Spector wrote:

In other words, the Star was wrong to call it a 2% surtax. It's a 2% increase in the tax rate, which is then subject to the existing surtax of 56%.

I agree with you on this point. It's an increase in the nominal top marginal rate, which then goes through the surtax calculation, so that 2% becomes 3.12%. The ONDP messaging on this has been less than completely clear. 

Freedom 55

janfromthebruce wrote:

it's called solidarity.

 

ITT austerity is called solidarity.

Fidel

There really is a Walt Disney Party in Ontario. And they promised all kinds of wonderful things since electioneering in 2003. They promised things you wouldn't believe. And now their leader's nose is too long by a half. 

If you want more "wealth creation" in Ontario, make sure not to vote NDP. We'll all be wealthy in no time at all.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

This save McGuinty's ass deal is pathetic...just pathetic.

Lord Palmerston

[url=http://ontariondp.com/en/horwath-gets-real-results-will-keep-working-in-...

Quote:
Horwath says the NDP brought positive changes to the Budget like a new tax on high income earners and new funding that will save childcare spaces protect healthcare and stabilize industries like horse racing. She also claims credit for stopping further corporate tax cuts and winning support for policies like a Job Creator Tax Credit.

"Stabilize industries like horse racing"  Really?

Stockholm

radiorahim wrote:

This save McGuinty's ass deal is pathetic...just pathetic.

The alternative would have been an election which would almost certainly have led to a Tim Hudak minority government. Do you think that would have been any better?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

"almost certainly"?

You obviously have no faith in the ability of your party to present an alternative to the austerity agenda of the Liberals and Conservatives.

Maybe because they don't have one.

At least with Horwath's abject capitulation we have 100% certainty - of the implementation of a Liberal austerity program.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Horwath was on P&P tonight, and said spending the money on debt reduction was not her preference.

Lord Palmerston

Sid Ryan: "And I want to say this to our friends in the NDP. I want to be clear about where labor stands on the right to strike, on free collective bargaining, and where we stand on corporate taxes. But I want you to make no mistake where we stand on social assistance. We stand with the people on social assistance and no political party worth its salt can walk away from the table and not see an increase in social assistance. It is absolutely shameful that we'd be saying to people on social assistance that you have to pony up and corporations who are making money hand over fist get away scot free. That is not on in this province, that is not on with this labor movement and I hope to God when this final deal is done on Tuesday that we can at least hold our heads high and say that folks on social assistance to share were not called upon to share the unfair burden that the corporations should be taking on."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmBUFkbNbvA

Freedom 55

 

Stockholm wrote:

radiorahim wrote:

This save McGuinty's ass deal is pathetic...just pathetic.

The alternative would have been an election which would almost certainly have led to a Tim Hudak minority government. Do you think that would have been any better?

 

That's bullshit. Why have elections when we can make decisons based on cherry-picking poll results that support a previously held position? radiorahim has it right. Horwath's deal is pathetic. Even more pathetic is a party that seems so determined to convince potential voters of their own unelectability.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Boom Boom wrote:

Horwath was on P&P tonight, and said spending the money on debt reduction was not her preference.

Well, boo hoo! It was enough to make her decide to support the budget.

Saying it was not her preference is simply an admission of failure in the negotiations.

What exactly did she get that was her "preference"? More money for child care and disability support programs? Oh wait - that was money taken from the education budget.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I was thinking the same thing, MS. Not one of Andrea's better interviews. She seemed to concede to McQuinty.

Aristotleded24

As far as NDP leaders go, from my side of Lake of the Woods, I'm happy to see an NDP leader at least openly talking about raising taxes on higher income earners. That principle is on the table, even if it doesn't go as far as it needs to right now. It's much better than here in Manitoba where our (supposedly) NDP government won't even consider tax increases.

I'm also impressed to see the OFL fighting hard for the working people and those on social assistance.

Freedom 55

Aristotleded24 wrote:

I'm also impressed to see the OFL fighting hard for the working people and those on social assistance.

 

I hope they have the stomach to take on [url=http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1166017--hopes-f... of their own[/url].

Quote:

Their last hope is Frances Lankin. And they’re no longer sure whether she’s a friend or a foe.

Doug

M. Spector wrote:

So the one thing that Horwath was successful in prying out of McGuilty will not do anything to benefit the victims of his austerity program. It will all go to the bondholders and Bay Street high rollers who have been financing the provincial deficit. 

 

There was a little more that was gained earlier. Also, if you want less money to go to bondholders and Bay Street, reducing the deficit is a good way to start. Reducing the deficit by increasing their taxes is even better.

toaster

It's unfortunate it has come to this.  About a third of the NDPs seats are from Northern Ontario, and those will surely be going Conservative Blue in the next election if the NDP sticks by this budget that kills thousands of jobs in the North (Ontario Northland).  At the very least Bisson, Gelinas, Campbell, Mantha, and Vanthof need to abstain from voting, but even then.  The North is increasingly becoming a 2 party district (NDP - CON) and this is going to hurt them tremendously.  I can already picture the adds "Bisson did not vote to save Ontario Northland".

Stockholm

The conservatives are even more outspoken about wanting to kill Ontario Northland nd I don't know where you get this idea that northern Ontario is a NDP/PC duopoly, in the election last October the NDP took 5 seats in the north, the Liberals took 4 and the Tories just 1

NDPP

Ontario Unions Try to Provide Cover for NDP's Support for Austerity Budget  - by Carl Bronski

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/apr2012/cana-a23.shtml

"the NDP, in the name of 'making parliament work', is preparing to support sweeping spending cuts.  Saturday's show of opposition to the Liberal cuts is political theater meant to disguise the fact that the unions and the NDP are preparing to prop up McGuinty's minority Liberal government, ensure passage of its austerity budget and surrender before its two-year public sector wage freeze.

The NDP has for weeks been 'negotiating' its support for a budget that is even more draconian than the attacks launched on working people under the Conservative government of Mike Harris..."

Fidel

All these NDP critics just wanna see another election and vote split, and then Hudak's conservatives slither up the middle to phony-majority dictatorial rule in old conservative Ontario.

We know who the real enemies of the poor are.

Freedom 55

Fidel wrote:

We know who the real enemies of the poor are.

 

Yep. Every single MPP at Queen's Park.

Fidel

Freedom 55 wrote:

Fidel wrote:

We know who the real enemies of the poor are.

 

Yep. Every single MPP at Queen's Park.

 

Yep, every single one of them sounds better than just the Harris-Flaherty-McGuilty tripartite axis of doom since 1995. Gotta squeeze the NDP in for a proportional share of the disaster in old bankrupt Ontario.

The Tories once ruled Ontario for 42 consecutive years non-stop during the most ideal cold war economies this hemisphere had ever known. Ontario used to be a net exporter of electrical power to the Northern U.S. Cheap electrical power was the backbone of their glorious capitalist expansions. And it all came to an end for them after decades of mismanaging everything within their grasp. Old Tory Ontario still managed to ring-up nearly a billion dollars in debt for every year they were in power. Pinocchio's Liberals have been about the worst of the two fiscal Frankenstein parties with even less to show for their spending like drunken sailors on corporate welfare programs and tax cuts for rich friends of the party. 

Voters in Ontario will wake up. Some day. 

Lord Palmerston

Freedom 55 wrote:
Yep. Every single MPP at Queen's Park.

Indeed, while those on social assistance will have to make due with a measly "increase" that is below the rate of inflation (and will thus see their standard of living decline), the NDP MPPs making over $100,000 a year (and in the top 5% of income earners in Ontario) won't be "sharing the burden."  1 percenter Dalton McGuinty isn't even going to be hit by the tax increase for $500,000+ earners.  

janfromthebruce

I don't get why some here thought going to an election would be better for NDP and those who support the ndp, and for the programs and services the NDP advocates for.  I just don't get it. I'm trying to understand because I didn't see the NDP winning and more to the point, I saw the Cons winning even with Hudak just because their campaign message is simple - cut cut cut!

The people and folks who support the NDP are the same folks losing jobs, taking cuts and so on, so thinking we'd have money to have a have decent campaign is well, scary. The Cons on the other hand, will get money from those with the money.

deb93

Fidel wrote:

I think there are some who just want to see Hudak take another swing at the fpp'ian cat just 7 months after the last car wreck of an election. They think that 4,000,000+ Ontarians AWOL from the last election will magically turn up at the polls, even though many of them were disabused of their efforts to vote years ago.

And then they would lay blame squarely on Horwath's shoulders for the conservatives being elected to phony majority dictatorial power in old bankrupt conservative Ontario. I think it's that they just don't like Andrea Horwath very much. 

Like her or not, she's making inroads in Ontario that may benefit the whole country. The tax on the rich is popular and she's got people's attention.

deb93

Fidel wrote:

I think there are some who just want to see Hudak take another swing at the fpp'ian cat just 7 months after the last car wreck of an election. They think that 4,000,000+ Ontarians AWOL from the last election will magically turn up at the polls, even though many of them were disabused of their efforts to vote years ago.

And then they would lay blame squarely on Horwath's shoulders for the conservatives being elected to phony majority dictatorial power in old bankrupt conservative Ontario. I think it's that they just don't like Andrea Horwath very much. 

Like her or not, she's making inroads in Ontario that may benefit the whole country. The tax on the rich is popular and she's got people's attention.

Fidel

The NDP will live to fight the next budget. We should be better prepared for an election then when Ontarians have a better understanding of the Liberals gross mismanagement of the economy and province in general. Voters will be more informed of the issues and more able to decide that they should swing NDP instead of carrying this wooden doll of a Bay Street premier another full term. 

And I've said it before, snap election calls and democracy are incompatible period. It was a window of opportunity for neoliberal extremists on the right to wage the full monty version in Ontario.

The Hudak Tories are not able to take advantage of the vote split just seven months after the last farcical FPTP election fraud perpetrated in Ontario. The poor in Ontario have avoided a near miss with Hudak, a Mike the Knife Harris clone if we ever heard one.

 

Fidel

I agree. The NDP are looking good as a result. Voters will tire of the same old song and dance with the other two parties. 

I think we have Andrea Horwath to thank for Ontario avoiding another Mike Harris style neoliberalorama under Hudak. It might well have happened with this flunky electoral system. I think a snap election call would have been disasterous for the poor in Ontario as well as the NDP. It would have been a major fail for the modicum of democracy we have in general.

It appears the NDP has Pinocchio's Liberals on democracy watch for now. Andrea and the NDP will live to fight another day and perhaps be better positioned for a not so snappy election call next time. And with these wishy washy Liberals we know there will be a next time. They will require pushing and prodding every step of the way and hopefully the NDP will be better positioned to push them over an electoral cliff.

Freedom 55

Fidel wrote:

I think a snap election call would have been disasterous for the poor in Ontario as well as the NDP. It would have been a major fail for the modicum of democracy we have in general.

 

What snap election? A snap election is not any election held within a relatively brief period of time of the previous one. A snap election is when the governing party decides to call an early election or order to take advantage of a perceived window of opportunity. That clearly is not the case in Ontario, where the governing Liberals had the most to lose by going to the polls. But despite sitting in a position of strength, Horwath completely fucked-up negotiations by telegraphing her aversion to triggering an election and allowing Ontarians to vote on whether they want austerity, ulitmately managing only to get a few token concessions from McGuinty. By Monday it almost seemed like he was saving her, rather than the other way around. But keep sticking to your script... letting people vote on things that will have a profound impact on their lives is bad for democracy. [img]http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emoticons/rolleyes/images/emrolleyes11.gif...

Lord Palmerston

So now the argument is the NDP can't win, we must stop Hudak, etc.  Why the acceptance of the logic of the strategic voting folks here?

Aristotleded24

The one good thing that came out of this is that the issue of higher taxes on higher income earners is now on the public radar, even if the current proposal does not go as far as it needs to. Obviously there were some compromises made on the part of the NDP. Giving Andrea the benefit of the doubt (she was partially constrained by the fact that McGuinty didn't need that many more votes to pass the budget, so was able to offer crumbs), this is the first time she has handled such negotiations. I hope that she can learn from this experience and grow stronger and have a better negotiation next time.

I am also encouraged to see the OFL put pressure on the government to raise social assistance rates.

Fidel

Freedom 55 wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think a snap election call would have been disasterous for the poor in Ontario as well as the NDP. It would have been a major fail for the modicum of democracy we have in general.

 

What snap election? A snap election is not any election held within a relatively brief period of time of the previous one. A snap election is when the governing party decides to call an early election or order to take advantage of a perceived window of opportunity. That clearly is not the case in Ontario, where the governing Liberals had the most to lose by going to the polls. But despite sitting in a position of strength, Horwath completely fucked-up negotiations by telegraphing her aversion to triggering an election and allowing Ontarians to vote on whether they want austerity, ulitmately managing only to get a few token concessions from McGuinty. By Monday it almost seemed like he was saving her, rather than the other way around. But keep sticking to your script... letting people vote on things that will have a profound impact on their lives is bad for democracy. [img]http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emoticons/rolleyes/images/emrolleyes11.gif...

 

Bay Street instructs the property party when to call snap elections. Remember their saying that markets don't like instability in government, and that's the situation right now at Queen's Park. Bay Street and bond salesmen prefer phony-majority dictatorships running the show for four years at a time uninterrupted.

Bay Street calls the shots as to when snap election calls are made for short-term political gain not their hirelings in government or the official phony opposition as made evident with the leaked Lisa Raitt tape when it was revealed how our big banks are running the federal Liberal Party.

Pinocchio McGuilty has nothing to do with it. The markets want "stability", and they prefer phony majority dictatorial rule. Liberals and Tories have a few different rich friends to cater to when in government, but other than that they are one and the same property party with two right wings. And Bay Street runs them both.

Snap election calls for short-term political gain have nothing to do with democracy. Voters have a right to be informed over the course of adequately funded election campaigns with actual issues presented and party platforms laid out for all to see, just like the last election seven months ago.

Lord Palmerston

Right, they're basically the Liberals and Tories are basically the same party, but we need to support the Liberal government to stop the Tories.

Fidel

I never said our's is a modern democracy churning out democratic results. That was your first wrong assumption.

Brachina

deb93 wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think there are some who just want to see Hudak take another swing at the fpp'ian cat just 7 months after the last car wreck of an election. They think that 4,000,000+ Ontarians AWOL from the last election will magically turn up at the polls, even though many of them were disabused of their efforts to vote years ago.

And then they would lay blame squarely on Horwath's shoulders for the conservatives being elected to phony majority dictatorial power in old bankrupt conservative Ontario. I think it's that they just don't like Andrea Horwath very much. 

Like her or not, she's making inroads in Ontario that may benefit the whole country. The tax on the rich is popular and she's got people's attention.

Its good to see someone with long term vision, instead of a thirst for immediate gratification. This is the first time in decades income taxes went up and not down, when people see that it hasn't hurt the economy it will open up future opportunities, more acceptance of tax increases. Yes its a babystep, but she's not the,Premier yet. Also the next budget should have more money in the till, especially depending on how mining royalties assessment turns out.

Fidel

Lord Palmerston wrote:

Right, they're basically the Liberals and Tories are basically the same party, but we need to support the Liberal government to stop the Tories.

 

The McGuinty Liberals are not the neoliberals that Mike Harris and Jimmy Flaherty were from 95-2003. These Liberals may have ceased with continuing the Harris-Flaherty program for deregulation in a few sectors, but they haven't reversed any of it, either. It's true, and I would never vote for them or advocate that anyone else vote for them. 

The NDP is between a rock and a hard place with propping-up the Liberals. But I really do think these Hudak Tories would make things even worse if we can imagine. I can imagine things being worse. I don't think the poor and unemployed in Ontario can, though.

 

NDPP

 some might say an excellent case can be made for  the prospects of an ndp win in an election. I would have thought that this is precisely the RIGHT confluence of circumstances on which to run and win. Any other social democratic party in the western world would love to have such prospects. Hudak is becalmed and his poll prospects pessimistic. He has in any case all the electibility of dogshit. McGuinty and his bankster budget in tandem with the hated Harper's will cruelly screw the poor - ROYALLY. Mulcair and the ndp's political honeymoon is still in the ascendancy -  OF COURSE it's time to GO! - and  a building momentum with the offer of union money too!l GO WIN AN ELECTION! Goodness, isn't that supposed to be what  politicians do best?  What the hell's their problem really? It's high time - the issues couldn't be bigger or better.  And everybody on my side of the class war knows it too - even if you haven't been watching what the hackers and choppers have been doing in Iceland, Greece or Spain.

In such circumstances -  I'd say there's a very serious problem when your horse won't race...

 

Freedom 55

Fidel wrote:

snap elections

Again, this wasn't a case of your strawperson snap election. McGuinty was trying to avoid an election. Horwath made sure he didn't have to try very hard.

 

Brachina wrote:

Its good to see someone with long term vision, instead of a thirst for immediate gratification.

What you refer to as "immediate gratification" many of this province's most vulnerable would call "survival".

 

NDPP wrote:

 some might say an excellent case can be made for  the prospects of an ndp win in an election. I would have thought that this is precisely the RIGHT confluence of circumstances on which to run and win. Any other social democratic party in the western world would love to have such prospects. Hudak is becalmed and his poll prospects pessimistic. He has in any case all the electibility of dogshit. McGuinty and his bankster budget in tandem with the hated Harper's will cruelly screw the poor - ROYALLY. Mulcair and the ndp's political honeymoon is still in the ascendancy -  OF COURSE it's time to GO! - and  a building momentum with the offer of union money too!l GO WIN AN ELECTION! Goodness, isn't that supposed to be what  politicians do best?  What the hell's their problem really? It's high time - the issues couldn't be bigger or better.  And everybody on my side of the class war knows it too - even if you haven't been watching what the hackers and choppers have been doing in Iceland, Greece or Spain.

In such circumstances -  I'd say there's a very serious problem when your horse won't race...

 

I couldn't agree more. If they're so timorous about their electoral prospects now I can only feel pity for how difficult life must be as a Dipper, especially under less favourable circumstances. If they really don't want to take a chance at forming government one wonders why they even exist as a party. But then, maybe it's hard to risk losing a $116,000/year salary. I wouldn't know... that's more than nine years of income for a person on ODSP (and more than 16 for a person on OW).

Fidel

Freedom 55 wrote:

Fidel wrote:

snap elections

Again, this wasn't a case of your strawperson snap election. McGuinty was trying to avoid an election. Horwath made sure he didn't have to try very hard.

Snap elections are typically for short-term political gain. And with 4 million plus Ontarians of voting age staying home seven months ago, it's obvious to everyone and their dog that our dysfunctional electoral system will not work any better this time around. It's broken similar to the way Ontario is broken. Another WorstPastThePost election costing $100 million with taxpayers footing the bill will not fix that which remains hopelessly broken.

I think it would be a tough matter for the NDP to finance another campaign so close to the last one. The ONDP still has bills to pay from not one but two previous campaigns. Meanwhile the two old line parties are able to tap deep pockets on Bay Street whenever they want and especially if they, Bay Street, think they can win a phony majority with either of their goto parties. According to McGuinty labour unions fund the ONDP. Meanwhile have labour groups said they would kick-in for round two seven months later? I don't know that they have. Does anyone?

In any event, this is good PR for the NDP. It is working to garner public attention to real issues. And it's a form of free alternative electioneering favouring the NDP. Shrewd of the NDP I think. But Horwath knows that the very next budget will require the NDP's support as well. Even more pressure on Horwath's NDP to strike when the iron should not be just hot but red hot. But right now Ontarians are suffering election fatigue and aren't all paying attention. I think we could be too broke to pay attention. Hopefully more Ontarians will be paying full and undivided attention next time when the NDP is in the spotlight again. And there will be a next time no doubt about it. A good stew takes some simmering.

MegB

Fidel wrote:

In any event, this is good PR for the NDP. It is working to garner public attention to real issues. And it's a form of free alternative electioneering favouring the NDP. Shrewd of the NDP I think. But Horwath knows that the very next budget will require the NDP's support as well. Even more pressure on Horwath's NDP to strike when the iron should not be just hot but red hot. But right now Ontarians are suffering election fatigue and aren't all paying attention. I think we could be too broke to pay attention. Hopefully more Ontarians will be paying full and undivided attention next time when the NDP is in the spotlight again. And there will be a next time no doubt about it. A good stew takes some simmering.

Agreed.  Neither party had anything to gain by forcing an election.  Horwath's ONDP come out of it looking both flexible (caving on the HST issue) and like champions of working people (read middle class), while McGuilty looks like an ass -- his default position.

Howard

I don't know where you get all your numbers ygtbk, but you're confirming my prejudices. Still I'm glad there is a proposal to make the income tax system slightly more progressive after years of Harrisite policies.

Howard

janfromthebruce wrote:

well Howard, I would hope that other NDP MPPs stood with the leader and voted the same way - it's called solidarity.

Horwath herself has said it is a bad budget. If the improvements are enough that Ontario can avoid an election, then she can show her leadership in casting the deciding vote for the budget.

Horwath is in a position where if she wants to show leadership and vote for the budget deal herself, she also has the luxury of allowing the caucus to vote in solidarity with its interests. I would like it too if the caucus showed a united front, but they do not have to vote in favour of the budget to do so. Horwath can vote in favour and the caucus could all either vote against or abstain.

Anyways, there have been some very minor gains, some very minor gains I am proud of/grateful for. I would have liked to see the freeze on social assistance lifted. I don't know what Horwath will decide but I am pleased with her for trying to make this budget better. Ontarians (78%) seem to be happy with her approach. That is leadership. Leadership is not always doing/getting what you want but doing/getting what the people want, while maintaining some fidelity to your principles. Did/do I want more from Horwath? Yes. Am I grateful for what she has achieved so far? Yes as well.

Howard

-

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Rebecca West wrote:

Agreed.  Neither party had anything to gain by forcing an election.

Right. And of course party considerations trump the interests of the people of the province every time.

Quote:
Horwath's ONDP come out of it looking both flexible (caving on the HST issue) and like champions of working people (read middle class), while McGuilty looks like an ass -- his default position.

Flexible is another word for spineless. Champions of the middle class? What did the middle class gain from the "negotiation" over the budget? A million middle class public servants, nurses, and teachers got a nice little wage freeze, which wasn't even on the table in the phony "negotiations" - the NDP conceded it at the outset.

McGuilty was 100% successful in the negotiations:

• He came out not having to spend a single penny more on social programs.

• He gets to accelerate the reduction of the deficit thanks to the tax on the rich.

• He gets to stay in power thanks to his pals in the NDP supporting his austerity program.

Horwath was 100% unsuccessful:

• She failed to wring a single penny more in program spending out of the government.

• She left the workers to bear the brunt of the austerity program.

• Her plan to tax the super rich to pay for social programs was turned into a plan to pay off the Bay Street creditors, while leaving the absurdly low corporate income tax rates untouched.

• Every bit of the additional benefit to day cares and the disabled will come from robbing the education budget.

• Her party is now committed to supporting the biggest austerity assault on Ontario workers since Mike Harris.

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

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