Ontario Budget 2

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Aristotleded24

Well, I don't live in Ontario so any input I directed towards McGuinty or Horwath would be ignored. I'm just confused with the whole "world is ending" tone that some of these posts are taking before we even know the details of any budget amendments.

Freedom 55

Aristotleded24 wrote:

I'm just confused with the whole "world is ending" tone that some of these posts are taking before we even know the details of any budget amendments.

 

You're mistaken. We do know what she's proposed as amendments, and they're ridiculously wrong-headed, and a complete squandering of the first poitical leverage the NDP has had in 17 years.

Doctor Manderly

Well Andrea has given her final I believe proposal today...The point is if Ontarans want to avoid   a really bad budget they need to write to McGuinty and Andrea right away....

 

We already have more tban half a mllion jobkess in Ontario,,,we need bold big spending job creation...

 

Instead the government is making the exact mistake made in the Great Depression....cutting the budget when the deficit is cause by mass unemployment...

 

During the Great Depression this created a downward spiral...  

 

The effect is when you fire people they are no longer spending and creating jobs..and paying taxes...So then the deficit gets worse.....The temptation is to cut again..  Which kills more jobs...less taxes paid....then govenments want more job  cuts....which hurts tex revenue...etc

Our youth unemployment rate is 24 per cent...  I would not be surprised if medium term Ontario returns to our Great Depression rate of 20 per cent joblessness.. Real unemployment is already 11 percent...   Most of the Federal cuts by Harper are aimed at Ontario jobs...

Unionist

Strange place to find the truth:

[url=http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/04/10/andrea-horwath-ontario-bu... Horwath treads softly with budget demands[/url]

Quote:

Clearly uneasy with her party’s election odds should a budget standoff trigger one, Ms. Horwath has been careful to stick only to the NDP’s least confrontational ideas. Consider the major item that the NDP has requested of the Liberal government that was not part of the fall campaign: the “tax the rich” proposal that would add two percentage points of tax on the incomes of those earning more than $500,000 annually. That the NDP is asking for this measure as a way to offset the financial impact of its own proposed HST rebate for home heating bills is an acknowledgement that the main plank of Ms. Horwath’s fall platform — the raising of corporate tax rates from 11.5% to 14% — is a non-starter with the Liberals. If it really wanted to box the McGuinty government into a corner, the NDP could be demanding a one-point, or even half-point, jump in the corporate tax rate in order to pay for its wish list. Instead, Ms. Horwath is left promoting a tax on the super-rich in order to knock a consumption tax off heating bills, the net effect of which would be to provide the biggest breaks to those with the highest hydro bills: well-to-do folks who own big, energy-sucking homes. What’s next? A tax credit for monocles and top hats?

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

Wow. I read the whole article. One has to wonder where Horwath is getting her advice from.

Leigh

NDP support for community healthcare hopefully includes respect for the Canada Health Act, wherein public administration is upheld, ie) public management of health records, data collection, planning, and insurance billing.  It's illegal to allow current private e-health management and billing, giving access to our health data to global private insurance and finance whose subsidiaries create the templates for data collection, templates which also structure therapy, outcomes, and are used to determine allocation of funds in health system planning.

Private insurance/finance should not be managing our public health system.  It's illegal under the Canada Health Act.  Private management of our health care system has allowed for-profit corporations to determine, through software infrastructure, which services are to be covered publicly, which privately, and at what cost.  Corporate decision-making is, by law, to uphold the interest of shareholders. Governments have a duty to uphold human rights, including the right to healthcare.  Public employees, accountable to ensure our rights to coverage and access to care regardless of income level, need to be the ones doing the work of e-health, records, template design, billing, and planning.

Freedom 55

babble?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Unionist wrote:

Quote:

Instead, Ms. Horwath is left promoting a tax on the super-rich in order to knock a consumption tax off heating bills, the net effect of which would be to provide the biggest breaks to those with the highest hydro bills: well-to-do folks who own big, energy-sucking homes.

In absolute dollar terms, yes, the elimination of consumption tax on heating bills would provide a bigger break to those who pay the most for their heating. But in percentage of income terms (which is the measure of the "progressive" character of any tax change) it would provide a bigger break to low-income earners who spend 20%-40% of their income in the cold season to stay warm.

Rich people pay more HST than poor people. This is what we are told to justify the imposition of consumption taxes, and to oppose their reduction or removal, by way of demonstrating the "fairness" of the tax. In reality, consumption taxes consume a bigger portion of a poor or middle-income person's income than a rich person's.

Unionist

You're right, Spector. But that doesn't change the fact that eliminating HST on heating bills is a foolish PR gesture, compared to some important issues. From the same article:

Quote:
The McGuinty budget plans to impose two-year wage freezes on public-sector unions that don’t agree to them at the negotiating table, while also taking aim at generous pension benefits. These policies would be anathema to the NDP and yet Ms. Horwath appears ready to swallow them.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture
Doctor Manderly

Globe And Mail Article Quote:

Ms. Horwath said she was "taken aback" by Mr. McGuinty's comments and accused the Premier of ignoring the fact that her tax-the-rich proposal would raise additional revenues of just over $500-million.

 

She said she wants the government to spend that money on giving hydro consumers a break on prices and on more daycare spaces.

"I'm waiting now for him to make a decision," Ms. Horwath said in an interview. "He's got to make the tough choice now. Is it millionaires or daycares?"

 

Doctor Manderly

...

Doctor Manderly

SCROLL FAR DOWN

Premier McGuinty: It's Time to Get Ontario Back to Work!.

Pass a Job Creation Budget....Not a Job Killing Budget!

Too many Ontario families are struggling!

 

Click Below to Sign Stop the Job Killing Ontario Budget Cuts McGuinty Petition ....

PASS IT ON

...

The More Citizens Who Sign The More Strength We Have!

http://www.change.org/petitions/premier-mcguinty-let-s-get-ontario-back-...

 

Also Write to the Ontario NDP if You Want Them To Oppose the Budget....

ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca

 

 

 

Doctor Manderly

The Above Andrea quote is a good media line..

 

...but it doesn"t not change the fact that our friends the NDP  were to pass the budget even with those amendments ...

 

...it would still too way too deep cuts city...!  

 

Which as I have said is would be unhelpful in the ]obs.. department...

 

;-)SCROLL FAR DOWN
Premier McGuinty: It's Time to Get Ontario Back to Work!.

Pass a Job Creation Budget....Not a Job Killing Budget!

Too many Ontario families are struggling!

 

Click Below to Sign Stop the Job Killing Ontario Budget Cuts McGuinty Petition ....

PASS IT ON

...

The More Citizens Who Sign The More Strength We Have!

http://www.change.org/petitions/premier-mcguinty-let-s-get-ontario-back-...

 

Also Write to the Ontario NDP if You Want Them To Oppose the Budget....

ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca

 

 

NorthReport

Horwath to McGuinty: ‘Is it millionaires or daycares?’

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/horwath-to-mcguinty-is-it-m...

Doctor Manderly

Saw that, awesome line!  The issue is though,even with the proposals , the other overly severe cuts seem to be on the table impliciitly...

madmax

Doctor Manderly wrote:

Psst... Pass it on to everyone you know!


If we all write to Dalton & Andrea ...

....we can stop this budget that would destroy Ontario


email Dalton: dmcguinty.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org

email Andrea: ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca

You have about 3 posts back to back that look like this...

I call its SPAM

madmax

Doctor Manderly wrote:

Saw that, awesome line!  The issue is though,even with the proposals , the other overly severe cuts seem to be on the table impliciitly...

Yes it is an awesome line.

Ironically it also throws the AXe back at McGuinty. He asked the NDP to find $1billion in cuts. It would seem they have said.... you can cut your daycare program (Something McGuinty has said is important to him) and side with the Millionaires or he can tack on that 2% and move forward.

What is interesting is that after the NDP set the bar at 500,000 $ , people started saying that it was to high and should be lower..pick a number between 100 and 500 as the starting point for another tax bracket.

What people might miss is that against all odds...in an "Austerity Budget" the NDP changed the dialog from cuts to taxes... and particularly taxes on WHOM.

McGuinty had no problem taxing the middle and lower class disproportionately. The Health tax and HST to be specific. While those with greater income shared less of a burden.

The NDP has reversed the roles and they really aren't taking any heat for this discussion. They are earning respect.

NorthReport

Horwath's NDP performance in Ontario could end up doing wonders for Mulcair's NDP in Ontario.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1159962--cohn-will-n...

 

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

The worst aspect of this budget is the freeze on "Ontario Works" (social assistance) benefits.   Andrea has talked about a small increase in ODSP benefits but not social assistance rates as a whole.   That's appalling.

The ONDP's call for a small income tax increase on millionaires is the one positive class based demand that I see...not just for the additional funds it will raise but because it opens the door a tiny bit to a discussion about who benefits from our neo-liberal economy.

Doctors for Fair Taxation has been more progressive, calling for tax increases for anyone earning over $100,000 a year.   I think the ONDP should take their lead from the lefty doctors.

Doctor Manderly

Psst... Pass it on to everyone you know!


If we all write to Dalton & Andrea ...

....we can stop this budget that would destroy Ontario

 

email Dalton: dmcguinty.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org

email Andrea: ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca

Freedom 55

radiorahim wrote:

The worst aspect of this budget is the freeze on "Ontario Works" (social assistance) benefits.   Andrea has talked about a small increase in ODSP benefits but not social assistance rates as a whole.   That's appalling.

 

What makes it even more appalling (and baffling) is that they're lagging behind the public on this one rather than leading (or at least keeping pace). Even a majority of callers to Ottawa's talk radio station, CFRA - which has been dubbed Canada's most conservative station outside Alberta - support raising OW and ODSP rates.

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Yep, most people realize we can't freeze out the most vulnerable. There's still hope yet.

Doctor Manderly

I suspect at least part of the reason they want are freezing social assistance payment is they realize that unemployment would spike post budget cuts..and it will cost them more money...

 

I agree it is appalling!   People are more important than money...  have you had a chance to write to Andrea and Dalton with your opionion...And or sign the petition to  Dalton?  If not scroll FAR DOWN for details...

 

********************************************8
;-)SCROLL FAR DOWN

Premier McGuinty: It's Time to Get Ontario Back to Work!. Pass a Job Creation Budget....Not a Job Killing Budget!

Too many Ontario families are struggling!

 

Click Below to Sign Stop the Job Killing Ontario Budget Cuts McGuinty Petition ....

PASS IT ON

...

The More Citizens Who Sign The More Strength We Have!

http://www.change.org/petitions/premier-mcguinty-let-s-get-ontario-back-...

 

Also Write to the Ontario NDP if You Want Them To Oppose the Budget....

ahorwath-co@ndp.on.ca

 

 

Doug

The Liberals' 53-seat minority government would be replaced by a PC one led by Tim Hudak, with the identical number of seats - one seat short of a majority.  The NDP would become the Official Opposition with 28 seats, with the Liberals slipping into third place with 26.

The poll itself showed 34 per cent intended to vote PC, 31 per cent NDP and 29 per cent Liberal.  

Nice poll, but it still hasn't convinced me of the wisdom of causing an election.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I remember reading after the last Ontario election how disappointed Rob Ford and Stephen Harper were that Hudak did not win - imagine the Triumvirate of Harper, Hudak and Ford. Too scary to contemplate, although Ford seems to be held in check for the moment.

Howard

Unfreeze social assistance and raise taxes on the rich. That would be an acceptable compromise for me. Barring that, your move Ms. Horwath.

NorthReport

Who is G P Murray Research?

Howard

FWIW, I'm not going to blame Andrea for McGuinty's crappy budget. She didn't write it, even if she does have 1 votes worth of power to rewrite it.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Howard wrote:

FWIW, I'm not going to blame Andrea for McGuinty's crappy budget.

If she votes for it, she's every bit as culpable as every Liberal and Conservative in the Legislature who votes for it.

Howard

M. Spector wrote:

Howard wrote:

FWIW, I'm not going to blame Andrea for McGuinty's crappy budget.

If she votes for it, she's every bit as culpable as every Liberal and Conservative in the Legislature who votes for it.

In a way, however the political choice she faces is election or trade 1 vote for some compromises. I guess if she wanted to remain ideologically pure as driven snow and avoid a multimillion dollar snap election, the whole caucus could also abstain. Good luck whipping that vote. The alternative is to compromise and try and put some lipstick on this piggish budget.

radiorahim radiorahim's picture

Doug wrote:

 

The Liberals' 53-seat minority government would be replaced by a PC one led by Tim Hudak, with the identical number of seats - one seat short of a majority.  The NDP would become the Official Opposition with 28 seats, with the Liberals slipping into third place with 26.

The poll itself showed 34 per cent intended to vote PC, 31 per cent NDP and 29 per cent Liberal.  

Nice poll, but it still hasn't convinced me of the wisdom of causing an election.

 

 

I rather like those numbers.   Both the PC's and Liberals are down from the last election in terms of the popular vote.   The ONDP is the only party with wind in its sails with support jumping from just under 23% of the vote to 31%.   In 1990, 38% of the vote put the ONDP into a majority government.

Certainly a well done left populist campaign could mobilize people's anger and put the ONDP into minority government territory...and who knows?

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Howard wrote:

I guess if she wanted to remain ideologically pure as driven snow and avoid a multimillion dollar snap election, the whole caucus could also abstain.

So I guess one must be "ideologically pure as driven snow" in order to have the guts to resist throwing the poor and the disabled under the bus for selfish poll-driven political reasons?

It doesn't take a lot of ideological purity to see what's wrong with that.

And as for the use of the word "remain", all I can say is LOL!

Howard

M. Spector wrote:

Howard wrote:

I guess if she wanted to remain ideologically pure as driven snow and avoid a multimillion dollar snap election, the whole caucus could also abstain.

So I guess one must be "ideologically pure as driven snow" in order to have the guts to resist throwing the poor and the disabled under the bus for selfish poll-driven political reasons?

It doesn't take a lot of ideological purity to see what's wrong with that.

And as for the use of the word "remain", all I can say is LOL!

While I wish the NDP had won the last election, it didn't, and it is nowhere near that enviable position where the party gets to write the Ontario budget word for word.

Freedom 55

Howard wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

Howard wrote:

I guess if she wanted to remain ideologically pure as driven snow and avoid a multimillion dollar snap election, the whole caucus could also abstain.

So I guess one must be "ideologically pure as driven snow" in order to have the guts to resist throwing the poor and the disabled under the bus for selfish poll-driven political reasons?

It doesn't take a lot of ideological purity to see what's wrong with that.

And as for the use of the word "remain", all I can say is LOL!

While I wish the NDP had won the last election, it didn't, and it is nowhere near that enviable position where the party gets to write the Ontario budget word for word.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming that they're in position to dictate the entire budget to the Liberals. They are, however, in a position to make demands that curtail some of its nastier elements - things that should be a nonstarter for even a nominally centre-left party. If there's any accuracy to the projection models that Doug posted in #75, they're in an even stronger position to hold firm to their proclaimed principles, as McGuinty would have the most to lose in a new election.

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

I don't live in Ontario although it's where I'm from - and neverthleless I agree with Freedom 55's point above. What's the very latest poll numbers? 

 

ETA:  Anything that shows Hudak getting momentum will make me think twice - don't want another Mike Harris for Premier.

Skinny Dipper

The Ontario NDP can demand as much or as little in re-writing the budget.  My hunch is that the party is demanding little, and that Andrea Horwath will accept a few crumbs thrown at her by Dalton McGuinty.  The NDP MPPs will support the budget.  In doing so, the party will be in de-facto support of the wage and salary freezes on public unionized employees.  If a teachers' union decides to strike in September, and if the Liberals propose back-to-work legislation with an imposed contract, the Conservatives will likely support the government.  Any NDP opposition will be meaningless.  If the NDP is serious about supporting workers' rights, its MPPs should oppose the Liberal budget.  Otherwise, the party will be back-stabbing its public union supporters.

Life, the unive...

The irony of the NDP being required to save the teachers unions from themselves has broken my latest irony meter.  Here are unions that threw a lot of money at the Liberals, the English Catholic teachers union even going so far as to guarenshee members wages, yet somehow it will all be the NDPs fault.  Doesn't make a lick of sense to me and I have a hard time feeling sorry for them, because I will be willing to bet dollars to donuts that if an election were to happen again, they would do the exact same thing.

toaster

Exactly.  Almost all teacher's are hoping the budget doesn't go through, and won't be supporting the Liberals in the next election.  Many who've been lifelong liberals.

Life, the unive...

I doubt it.  I know lots of teachers that voted for Mike Harris- twice.  The writing was on the wall for those unions and they chose to ignore it and back the Liberals anyway.  Again, it is really hard to feel sorry for the union leadership, but I do feel sorry for the frontline teachers and other workers.

Doug

Howard wrote:

While I wish the NDP had won the last election, it didn't, and it is nowhere near that enviable position where the party gets to write the Ontario budget word for word.

 

Even if it did, the province's financial situation hasn't changed so it's the same challenge - maybe a somewhat different solution involving more tax increase and less cutting but still a whole bunch of not-fun.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

In other words, we can all look forward to the same austerity program continuing under an NDP Neo-Diperal government.

That's a comforting thought. Why would I even consider voting for that?

Life, the unive...

You are one of the most intellectually dishonest posters on babble.  I said nothing of the sort. Didn't even broach the topic. But this is your constant passive aggressive routine.  All I pointed out was life is a lot less black and white than you think.  Once you involve real live human beings life, including politics, becomes terribly complex.

Freedom 55

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

You are one of the most intellectually dishonest posters on babble.  I said nothing of the sort. Didn't even broach the topic. But this is your constant passive aggressive routine.  All I pointed out was life is a lot less black and white than you think.  Once you involve real live human beings life, including politics, becomes terribly complex.

 

There was a post #91. You might consider that before taking offense, and launching into personal attacks. Unless there are quotes to indicate otherwise, I generally assume people are responding to the post immediately above their own. 

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

You are one of the most intellectually dishonest posters on babble.  I said nothing of the sort. Didn't even broach the topic. But this is your constant passive aggressive routine.  All I pointed out was life is a lot less black and white than you think.  Once you involve real live human beings life, including politics, becomes terribly complex.

And you are one of the most backward and disagreeable posters on babble. I was responding to Doug's suggestion that if the NDP were in a position to write the budget, it would read pretty much the same as the Liberal budget. I guess you have no problem with Doug's suggestion, since you didn't attack him personally.

You should be in the Liberal Party. Politics for them is terribly complex.

 

Boom Boom Boom Boom's picture

The idea that a union member might have voted for Mike Harris back then strikes me as bizarre. I can't fathom the appeal of Mike Harris to someone in a union.

Fidel

M. Spector wrote:
Why would I even consider voting for that?

 

Because you can't justify Pinocchio McGuilty's marathon parade of broken election promises since 2003. And until you are able to the ONDP will always be a better choice than the Fiberals.

We've lost half a million manufacturing jobs in Canada in the last ten years. Three decades three recessions. This neoliberal meltdown part III is not the ONDP's doing. Not really.

 

Life, the unive...

Boom Boom wrote:

The idea that a union member might have voted for Mike Harris back then strikes me as bizarre. I can't fathom the appeal of Mike Harris to someone in a union.

An  awful lot of them were going to teach Bob Rae and the NDP a lesson.  And in the next election the Conservatives painted the Liberals as untrustworthy.  There are many, many rank and file people who are in a union, but mostly just because they have to be.  It would be wrong to assume that they are less given to the politics of hate, resentment and divide and conquer than anyone else just because they hold a union card.  I'm just being realistic and this is a reality in many ridings.  It doesn't mean it can't be overcome, but pretending that at the flip of the switch the labour movement will move together in one direction ignores years of reality.  

Most people are not ideological, they move all over the place and see no contradiction between voting for say the Conservatives in one election and the NDP the next.  As an ideologue I don't understand it, but I have seen it time and time again.  Progressives ignore it at their peril and frequent defeats. 

Life, the unive...

M. Spector wrote:

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

You are one of the most intellectually dishonest posters on babble.  I said nothing of the sort. Didn't even broach the topic. But this is your constant passive aggressive routine.  All I pointed out was life is a lot less black and white than you think.  Once you involve real live human beings life, including politics, becomes terribly complex.

And you are one of the most backward and disagreeable posters on babble. I was responding to Doug's suggestion that if the NDP were in a position to write the budget, it would read pretty much the same as the Liberal budget. I guess you have no problem with Doug's suggestion, since you didn't attack him personally.

You should be in the Liberal Party. Politics for them is terribly complex.

 

Coming from the likes of you I'll take that as a compliment.  Maybe some day you will mature to the point that you understand that not everyone, actually pretty much not anyone, has the exact same world view as someone else.  Years of  babble should have taught you that, but do keep with the harangues.

Unionist

Life, the universe, everything wrote:

There are many, many rank and file people who are in a union, but mostly just because they have to be.

What a sad and backward comment to see on this discussion board - worthy of a Mike Harris or a Stephen Harper.

ETA: Actually, let's take this condemnation a bit further. I have been a union member for about 90% of my working life (lots of non-union jobs at the start).

I have never met one single co-worker - amazing as it may seem - who said they would rather not be in the union. Not one. I have never even met a member who took advantage of the legal right to have union dues diverted to a charitable organization where individual conscience forbids contributions to a union.

Yet, you throw this stuff around as if it's the truth. And you complain, in terms laced with obscenities, of "urban" (read: unionized workers) "ignorance" of rural folks (read: small business people - because you sure ain't talking about agricultural labourers, unionized or otherwise).

Your comments reflect the worst wedges I've ever seen here, trying to set workers and farmers against each other. It will never happen. And your attacks on unions and unionized workers will be answered with the utter contempt and derision that they deserve.

 

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