Ontario By-elections

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wage zombie

Ken Burch, when was the last time you were in Ontario?

onlinediscountanvils

Ken raises some good points.

Stockholm

This is absurd. First of all you obviously know NOTHING about Adam Giambrone if you refer to him as "middle aged". He is in his early 30s - in my book that is not middle aged - its young.

Second of all, people can say a lot of things good and bad a bout Giambrone - but this is the first time I have ever seen anyone denounce him as "safe, bland and passion-free". He is none of those things at all. If anything the knock against him is that he is risky, high octane and overly passionate!

Third of all, the idea that because Amarjeet lost a nomination contest to Giambrone will jettison any chance of her ever running for the NDP anywhere agin is ridiculous. LOTS of people lose nomination contests and then get nominated in the same or in another riding in a subsequent election. She apparently made a good impression on people. I would be surprised if she wasn't begged to run in the next provincial or federal riding for the NDP and the experience of having run for an lost a nomination contest will make her that much stroinger and more experienced a candidate.

Ken Burch wrote:

The issue with Giambrone, Stocks, is that it goes without saying that, as a middle aged white man, he can't possibly be as passionate about feminist, anti-racist, and other anti-oppression as the other candidate, the candidate he recruited and then betrayed by running against her and beating her, thus guaranteeing no riding association will EVER nominate her.  That had to be part the reason he was chosen...the argument that his whiteness and maleness will distance himself from the real pain of women and people of color, which will make him "safer" in the eyes of the obsessed about(and, in real life basically nonexistent)"moderate swing voters".

He might win that way, but can he care after changing anything that matters AFTER he wins?  Can any candidate that conveys "safety" and "reassurance" be capable of actually caring about making life different?

Giambrone was nominated as the safe, bland passion free candidate, using the same logic that lost the BCNDP an election they should have been guaranteed to win.

autoworker autoworker's picture

I wish we had some passion down here in Windsor-Tecumseh.

Aristotleded24

My question is what sense does it make for Giambrone to run in Scarborough anyways? He was a downtown councillor, and they have distinct issues from the suburbs. Can he really convince people in Scarborough that he understands their issues?

It looks to me like the NDP parachuted in a "well-connected insider" in the hopes of winning a seat. Surely they could have found something else for Giambrone to do for the moment and simply allowed the local community to handle the by-election on its own?

Professor

On Giambrone: Don't hate a politician for seizing opportunity and becoming democratically elected. It happens all the time.  If a candidate wants to win then they need to organize more than a handful of people and make sure they get the job done. All this NDP is sexist and racist and blah blah blah is the stuff of nonsense. Most New Democrats are socailly progressive. How else could you explain sticking with a party that almost always never wins? You'd have to be. On teachers: Remember that the ONDP is not the exclusive agent of teacher federations. There is a big picture and it is called public opinion. How tactically stupid would it be for the ONDP after a year long campaign by the Liberals and Tories to demonize teachers (thus creating a brand) to then stand up and once again speak for a group that does not even support them. We already do it for the poor (right thing to do) who don't show up at the ballor box and now we have to do it for teachers who vote Liberal? Jesus. For godsakes their union leader at OSSTF is a Liberal candidate and the ONDP is supposed to jump in front of the public opinion train and be derailed over some teacher Liberal infighting?  Think about this. Teachers are demonized by govt for a year. Teachers unions chose predicatable response to remove that which makes parents (voters) happy. (Extra curriculars)  Liberal media attacks teachers and parents and students are mad at teachers because their world is rocked. So the brand is created. Teachers = greedy selfish entitled.  NDP stands up for teachers and is the target for all of the dissatified stakeholders. Public says NDP doesnt get it and could never command my vote. Unions still work behind the scenes with Liberals because they want to back Kathleen Wynne. So NDP stands up to bully and gets teeth kicked in. Doesnt seem like a smart move to me. I'm glad they voted agaisnt bill 115 and I'm glad they realize the game for what it is.  A total farce that usually benefits the Liberals. I like this new pragmatic NDP. By the way the Carpenters union is active for the Liberals in Scarborough. Solidarity forever!

Unionist

Professor wrote:
How tactically stupid would it be for the ONDP after a year long campaign by the Liberals and Tories to demonize teachers (thus creating a brand) to then stand up and once again speak for a group that does not even support them. We already do it for the poor (right thing to do) who don't show up at the ballor box and now we have to do it for teachers who vote Liberal? Jesus.

Interesting point.

Maybe it's time we abandoned the ungrateful poor as well?

They don't vote for us, and they're certainly pathetic when it comes to fundraising.

Would that constitute a Revolution in our approach? Nah - just Common Sense.

 

Professor

Of course we shouldn't abandon the poor. A silly point to make that shows you do not comprehend what was stated or are trying to argue a meaningless point to score some sort of shallow and self satifying need to feel as though you are in some way right. Drole. Your political lesson again is don't get in front of a speeding train for a group that should know better but chooses to support the party that abuses them. Especially when the narrative has been set to do maximum harm to the party that steps up. This is a trap that the ONDP used to always fall into on behalf of a labour movement that is in no way shape or form in the practice of solidarity, When labour unions are reduced to a fragmented group of self-interested and constantly competing lobbies it makes sense for the NDP to be self interested in their actions. Back to the poor:  The poor have no voice unless we stand up for them. The poor are not (most) unionzed workers and they certainly arn't the teachers. I was trying to illustrate that members' credentials as New Democrats are bona fide. They have paid their dues time and time again and often are met with barbs from the wacked out lefties who demand dogmatic adherance to pure principles of unionism and socialism. Do you not yet realize that the membership and leadership is evolving to suit the realities of the modern world? New Democrats are judged by their actions and the people they serve. The poor being among them.  They do it well and honourably and sometimes make errors but by and large are a progeressive party made up of people who care. Please do not send in silly submissions like this and expect to pass my course which I offer free of charge. Now try harder please.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Professor wrote:

Of course we shouldn't abandon the poor. A silly point to make that shows you do not comprehend what was stated or are trying to argue a meaningless point to score some sort of shallow and self satifying need to feel as though you are in some way right. Drole. 

..

They have paid their dues time and time again and often are met with barbs from the wacked out lefties who demand dogmatic adherance to pure principles of unionism and socialism.

..

Please do not send in silly submissions like this and expect to pass my course which I offer free of charge. Now try harder please.

Yes SIR.  Absolutely Sir.

What a nasty nasty post. Its good to see more NDP partisans posting regularly.  It gives us all a chance to see what the party is really like.  Thank you kindly for your course on politics. Please will you tell us what to think on other issues since we are soo very silly.  Wisdom drips from your words with the sweet rose water smell of the sweat from a pig.

Professor

Not a nasty post. Merely direct and to the point. All debate is welcome at my table but silliness is called out for what it is. I wouldn't say partisan either. I think the party is made of of many competing viewpoints which is a healthy thing. Disagreement creates conversation. I'm  realistic like most of the voters out there. I'm drawn to the New New Democrat approach. I think it has potential. Constructive criticism: Your insults betray your lack of ability to form a cohesive arguement to counter mine. This is evidence of a weak argument and an emotionally reactive position. Best to leave emotion out of these things as it often the halmark of wacko hyper leftie mentality. (finds balance with the tea party far right mindset) I find your style, immature.

onlinediscountanvils

Professor wrote:
Don't hate a politician for seizing opportunity and becoming democratically elected. It happens all the time.

I mostly take issue with him jumping in to run against the very candidate who he had encouraged to run in the first place. That's the part that seems slimier than 'politics as usual'.

 

Professor wrote:
The poor have no voice unless we stand up for them.

That's not true at all. It's great to have allies, but that doesn't mean we're voiceless without them.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

What an insufferable, boorish post. Professor, if you'd like to stick around to continue your lessons, please refrain from insulting a) large swaths of the posters here and b) the emotional maturity of indvidual posters. Both are against babble policy. This is a warning, comrade.

Professor

Cathfire. You fail to attack the arguement and settle for name calling. Also, It is right to call into question the emotional maturity of posters who exhibit hyper emotional responses and insults to balanced and informative posts. Perhaps your falure to realize this would explain why the community of posters on Babble continues to shrink.  Good day.

Professor

onlinediscountanvils wrote:

Professor wrote:
Don't hate a politician for seizing opportunity and becoming democratically elected. It happens all the time.

I mostly take issue with him jumping in to run against the very candidate who he had encouraged to run in the first place. That's the part that seems slimier than 'politics as usual'.

 

That's a fair point. Seems a bit slimy but hey that's the biz. Run to win they say!

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

I see. So if I allowed more posters to insult others for hysteria, babble would begin to grow and flourish? DO GO ON PROFESSOR.

No, seriously. Do go on.

wage zombie

Professor, you're giving NDP supporters a bad name.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

autoworker wrote:
These by-elections are being held during the dog days of Summer, when students are NOT in school, and teachers are envied for their time off, while many working class voters are struggling to get by, and worrying about what their kids are up to, while they're at work.. If Horwath hopes to connect with these people, and actually get them out to vote for her, it's probably more prudent to move onto other issues that concern them, at the moment, and not remind them of that fact. How much, realistically, could Horwath have extracted from Wynne? It's not as though the ONDP currently has the means to fight the good fight in a general election. Besides, how many Ontario voters even know of Bill 115, let alone have the inclination to educate themselves about the issue, and discuss it outside forums such as this?

Teachers ARE working-class.  It's a right-wing talking point to say they aren't.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Professor wrote:

Your insults betray your lack of ability to form a cohesive arguement to counter mine. This is evidence of a weak argument and an emotionally reactive position. Best to leave emotion out of these things as it often the halmark of wacko hyper leftie mentality. (finds balance with the tea party far right mindset) I find your style, immature.

You are not only boorish you don't even have a sense of humour. You proposed no argument you merely went into a rant that deliberately insulted many people.  IMO The only logical response to your kind of rant is a little humour. Your follow up posts still have the unmistakable scent of your special brand of toilet water.

Skinny Dipper

infracaninophile wrote:

Wow, Skinny Dipper, you're absolutely right. Not one mention of teachers -- in fact she had to have gone out of her way to avoid mentioning them, and it's hardly as if simply including them in the list of Ontarians concerned about school issues would have been provocative or even construed as "support." it does look like a deliberate, calculated omission, for reasons I can't fathom. Far simpler, and more honest (IMO) would have been to state -- not necessarily here, but in public discourse -- "yes, teachers have good pay and benefits, as do police and emergency response personnel, that we all envy, but they also perform important jobs that we as a society need and value, and they have the right to bargain their terms of employment in a fair and equitable manner. The health and well-being of our society depend on it."

This was way before the "dog days of summer" and the by-elections. I've gotten a few calls in the last few days from NDP recruiters soliciting my $$$ and my time. I think I will bring up this issue; I think it is an important one. It's not just about teachers.

 

 

I do want to support the Ontario NDP fully.  I am unclear about the direction that Andrea Horwath wants to take the party.  I have no problem about any slight ideological movement to the right or left.  However, I do find that the party is proposing piecemeal policies such as lower auto insurance rates and no provincial portion of the HST on home heating.  There doesn't seem to be an overall vision or set of goals for the provincial party.

When I saw and heard Andrea Horwath's video on education and extra curricular activities, it seemed to me that she purposely decided not to use the word "teacher."  Teachers are among the most important stakeholders in education.  I worry if she is going to treat other groups the same way.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

There's no need to continue wasting ink on our recently joined sessional. He's moved on.

Stockholm

You asked for a "straight answer" as to what Adam Giambrone offers as a candidate apart from having a light complexion- well i will give you one. Giambrone was national President of the NDP from 2000 to 2006, he ran twice and lost before getting elected to Toronto city council in 2003 and then getting reelected in 2006 to serve a total of seven years - during which time he was named chair of the TTC and ratified by his peers. How many 27 years olds do you know that get voted in by their peers to chair an entire transit system. Since 2010 he has been a consultant to transit systems around the world, has written a weekly column for NOW Magazine and somehow finds the time to work on archeological digs in Sudan and btw he even speaks Arabic fluently in addition to English and French. People can like or dislike Adam Giambrone but saying that he has NOTHING to offer as a candidate other than his skin colour is absurd and you know it.

His opponent for the nomination seeems to be a talented articulate women, but her only previous electoral forway was running for city council in Scarborough in 2006 and finishing dead last in a field of nine candidates and getting 1.3% of the vote! I think its insulting to imply that that every single non-white person in Scarborough would automatically support his opponent just because of skin colour and in fact there were lots of NDP members in Guildwood from the Tamil and Afro-Canadian communities who support Giambrone.

 

Ken Burch wrote:

OK, he might have passion.  But clearly the only reason the party intervened and essentially forced him in as the nominee(and that's the only explanation for what happened here)was the belief that they could only win this byelection with a white dude as the nominee.  Obviously he jumped in because Horvath didn't want a woman of color holding the ONDP banner in this contest...there isnt any other reason, since he doesn't have anything else that makes him anybody's definition of "superior" to Ms. Chhadra Ch Wouldn't you agree that NO progressive party should ever think that way?  And wouldn't you have to agree that it's not only cowardice but stupidity for the ONDP to ever try to pander to people who HAVE to have a white candidate to vote for, given that nobody who would refuse to vote for a woman of color could be anything but a right-wing extremist who wouldn't vote for the NDP no matter what?  The fact is, most white guys are going to be right-wing from here on in...so this kind of stunt is useless.

And really, what could Giambrone possibly have to offer, OTHER than white skin, that could possibly justify this arrogant move by him(and obviously secretly instigated by the leader)to leadpipe Ms. Chhadra's candidacy like that at the last minute?  What does anybody think is so bloody MAGICAL about the guy that hardball tactics are justified to force him in over a woman of color?  And what non-reactionary reason could there be to stop Chhadra from above?  Does blocking candidates like that at the last minute EVER lead to anything good for the NDP, anywhere?  Or for any OTHER parties on the Left anywhere?

I just want a straight answer to those questions...because Scarborough is a heavily multicultural riding and every person of color and every woman in that riding was insulted by Giambrone's nomination.  It won't be possible to get those voters to believe he'll fight for them or care about them.  And young women of color like Ms. Chhadra are going to take what happened there as a message that they aren't welcome in the ONDP to do anything but cook ethnic treats for appearances by the white dudes that are running instead of them, white dudes who will never run stronger races than those young women would have run.

edmundoconnor

Defenders of the theory that Chhabra was bushwhacked might like to start spelling her name correctly.

edmundoconnor

Ken, it might amaze you to learn there are more than a few people in riding who aren't even aware there's a by-election happening, never mind how a candidate got nominated. In any case, you're letting your passion lead you into rather hyperbolic (and unsupportable) arguments.

Lord Palmerston

edmundoconnor wrote:

Defenders of the theory that Chhabra was bushwhacked might like to start spelling her name correctly.

A hypothesis, not a theory.

Lord Palmerston

Liberal hack and fellow level 10 white guy Zach Paikin comes to the defense of his friend Adam Giambrone:

[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/zach-paikin/adam-giambrone-ndp-candidate_b_... the Record Straight on Adam Giambrone[/url]

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I realize that there are a lot of people in the riding who don't know a byelection is happening.  But forcing in Giambrone over Chhambra isn't going to make them more aware.

It was just wrong for him to run against someone else he had personally ENCOURAGED to run.  And, if he had to do that, he should have felt obligated to enter the nomination contest at the beginning rather than at the end.  I really can't see any reason for him or anyone else to feel that Chhambra had to be stopped. 

It would all have been different if Giambrone had played fair.  There was simply no call for heavy-handedness and a last-minute "deux ex machina" campaign on his part.

autoworker autoworker's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

autoworker wrote:
These by-elections are being held during the dog days of Summer, when students are NOT in school, and teachers are envied for their time off, while many working class voters are struggling to get by, and worrying about what their kids are up to, while they're at work.. If Horwath hopes to connect with these people, and actually get them out to vote for her, it's probably more prudent to move onto other issues that concern them, at the moment, and not remind them of that fact. How much, realistically, could Horwath have extracted from Wynne? It's not as though the ONDP currently has the means to fight the good fight in a general election. Besides, how many Ontario voters even know of Bill 115, let alone have the inclination to educate themselves about the issue, and discuss it outside forums such as this?

Teachers ARE working-class.  It's a right-wing talking point to say they aren't.

It's a left-wing talking point to say they are.

adma

Stockholm wrote:
His opponent for the nomination seeems to be a talented articulate women, but her only previous electoral forway was running for city council in Scarborough in 2006 and finishing dead last in a field of nine candidates and getting 1.3% of the vote! I think its insulting to imply that that every single non-white person in Scarborough would automatically support his opponent just because of skin colour and in fact there were lots of NDP members in Guildwood from the Tamil and Afro-Canadian communities who support Giambrone.

And interestingly, that last place was in spite of her getting more city-wide press than any other candidate save incumbent Paul Ainslie, thanks to her being part of City Idol.

Still, that was then and this is now--I trust that she used that last place as a "starting point" and can see her as a very credible candidate in 2015, federally or provincially.  (Trusting the possibility/likelihood that Giambrone won't win this time, and is unlikely to run again here in the future.)

 

In the middle of all of this--anyone Guildwood-related w/any vibe from the PC candidate?  The fact that he's Tamil sounds like something that could eat into the erstwhile NDP base (cf. Markham-Unionville, where the 2011 Tamil polls that went heavily NDP federally went heavily PC provincially, thanks to the candidate being "one of their own")

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

autoworker wrote:
Ken Burch wrote:

autoworker wrote:
These by-elections are being held during the dog days of Summer, when students are NOT in school, and teachers are envied for their time off, while many working class voters are struggling to get by, and worrying about what their kids are up to, while they're at work.. If Horwath hopes to connect with these people, and actually get them out to vote for her, it's probably more prudent to move onto other issues that concern them, at the moment, and not remind them of that fact. How much, realistically, could Horwath have extracted from Wynne? It's not as though the ONDP currently has the means to fight the good fight in a general election. Besides, how many Ontario voters even know of Bill 115, let alone have the inclination to educate themselves about the issue, and discuss it outside forums such as this?

Teachers ARE working-class.  It's a right-wing talking point to say they aren't.

It's a left-wing talking point to say they are.

Teachers ARE just as working class as any other workers.  And it goes without saying that they are just as working-class as autoworkers.

BTW, the reference to teachers and "their time off" was a right-wing cheap shot.  That three months away from the classroom-and they only have that three months away if they aren't teaching summer school-is UNPAID leave(during which time they are expected to get another job-usually a much more badly-paying and screwed-over one, like working in a liquor store or a Tim Horton's or something...and during which time they are also expected, in most districts, to go to additional training courses(often at their own expenses).  If other workers resent educational workers(which is what we should call teachers)it's solely because of lies in the right-wing press.  They have no justification for resenting them in reality, because teachers aren't a priliveged class and never have been.

 

Stockholm

Ken Burch wrote:

It was just wrong for him to run against someone else he had personally ENCOURAGED to run.  And, if he had to do that, he should have felt obligated to enter the nomination contest at the beginning rather than at the end.  I really can't see any reason for him or anyone else to feel that Chhambra had to be stopped. 

It would all have been different if Giambrone had played fair.  There was simply no call for heavy-handedness and a last-minute "deux ex machina" campaign on his part.

Are you aware of the timelines in this contest?? Two weeks ago no one had the slightest idea there was even going to be a byelection in Scarborough-Guildwood. On Friday afternoon June 28th, Margaret Best shocked everyone by announcing she was resigning her seat. Two days later on June 30th I asked people what was happening with regard to the NDP nomination in that riding and was told that a few people were "sniffing around" but that no one had declared and that no date for the nomination had been set yet. Two days after that on Tuesday may 2 the Liberals announced that Mitzie Hunter was their candidate...still no word on the NDP nomination, still no date. On Wed. July 3rd Wynne called a snap byelection for Aug. 1 - much faster than anyone expected - and that necessitated the NDP accelerating its nomination timetable. Later on Wed. July 3rd I saw on twitter that the NDP had scheduled a nomination meeting for Sunday July 6 - there were still only rumours as to who was actually going to run. Sometimes between on Wed. July 3 and Friday July 5th, Amargeet decided to run. Saturday July 5th Adam Giambrone announced he was running - after having told local and party people the night before. By my reckoning no more than 1.5 days passed where Amarjeet was in the running before Giambrone also joined the race. You make it sound like she had been slaving away trying to get nominated for the last three months...no, the entire nomination "campaign" lasted about three days and that was it. The beginning was the end and the end was the beginning!

Stockholm

You are really going beyond the pale here. Its verges on slander to refer to Adam as "a guy who treats women like dirt". and who are you who doesn't even live in Toronto to tell people in Scarborough who is or is not the stronger candidate. In order to have had any say whatsoever in the NDP nomination in Scarborough-Guildwood - you have to be a permanent resident of the riding AND a member in good standing of the NDP. If the party memebrs - every single solitary one of whom LIVES in Scarborough-Guildwood decided that they wanted Adam Giambrone to be their standard bearer - it is their business and no one elses.

autoworker autoworker's picture

Indeed, most teachers i know have plenty of time to work on summer election campaigns, if they're so inclined. I also suppose that Justin Trudeau, Jean Brodie, and Mr. Chips are all working class, too.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And there's also no reason to simply assume he'd be the stronger candidate...the fact that he has no connection to Scarborough would pretty much negate any good points about him. 

The fact remains...there was no reason for him, or anybody else, to see Chhambra as a candidate who had to be STOPPED.  She would not have been a disaster and she had no skeletons in her closet.

Now, female ONDP campaigners in the riding are going to be having to doorbell for the guy...and, since we can assume he's no feminist, why should they feel any enthusiasm about him?

It's only supposed to be the Liberals and Conservatives where the leadership intercedes in nomination contests.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Basically, Stockholm, I trust audra.  She saw what went down.  I wasn't there but she was.

btw, I've now edited the line you objected to to make it less inflammatory.  Kindly remove your quote of a phrase that no longer exists in my post.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And none of the public school teachers in Ontario have anything in common with Mr. Chips, Jean Brodie or even that fictional guy you mentioned.

Where the hell did you get the idea that teachers are aristocrats, auto?  And what did they ever do to you?  You SHOULD regard them as your fellow workers and be in solidarity with them.  They've always stood up for your CAW brothers and sisters.  They never backed autp industry management against your interests.

There's no difference in class status between public school teachers and your fellow CAW members.  Workers are workers.  Teaching young people in underfunded, undersupplied, decaying public schools is just as much work as anything YOU do or anything any other worker does.

Stockholm

Ken Burch wrote:

Basically, Stockholm, I trust audra.  She saw what went down.  I wasn't there but she was. 

She wasn't there either...she read about in the newspaper the next day. Edmund O'Connor who has posted in this thread is the one and only eyewitness. I am 100% neutral on who ought to have been nominated as NDP candidate in Scarborough-Guildwood. that decision was to be made party members who live in the riding  and no one else. No one has suggested any fraud. No one has suggested anyone voted who wasn't supposed to. No one has suggested a busload of "instant New Democrats" showed up out of no where. It was free, fair process and the local members decided and the local members are ALWAYS right. that's why we ELECT nominees instead of having the party simply pick people. The people have spoken. Period.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

We've already had one example of Horwath vetoing an ONDP candidate that had been freely and fairly chosen, and refusing to offer any real explanation for doing so for a long time(she should have felt obligated to do so instantly).  How do you know she didn't find some more covert way to intercede in this nomination?  The establishment candidate was chosen, and that should always raise suspicions.

I'd campaign for Giambrone...don't get me wrong...but there was something ugly in this...and his nomination won't lead to anything good.

 

autoworker autoworker's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

And none of the public school teachers in Ontario have anything in common with Mr. Chips, Jean Brodie or even that fictional guy you mentioned.

Where the hell did you get the idea that teachers are aristocrats, auto?  And what did they ever do to you?  You SHOULD regard them as your fellow workers and be in solidarity with them.  They've always stood up for your CAW brothers and sisters.  They never backed autp industry management against your interests.

There's no difference in class status between public school teachers and your fellow CAW members.  Workers are workers.  Teaching young people in underfunded, undersupplied, decaying public schools is just as much work as anything YOU do or anything any other worker does.

I don't share your binary obsession with class. I'm paid to work in a factory. It's a job, not a way of life.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

autoworker wrote:
Ken Burch wrote:

And none of the public school teachers in Ontario have anything in common with Mr. Chips, Jean Brodie or even that fictional guy you mentioned.

Where the hell did you get the idea that teachers are aristocrats, auto?  And what did they ever do to you?  You SHOULD regard them as your fellow workers and be in solidarity with them.  They've always stood up for your CAW brothers and sisters.  They never backed autp industry management against your interests.

There's no difference in class status between public school teachers and your fellow CAW members.  Workers are workers.  Teaching young people in underfunded, undersupplied, decaying public schools is just as much work as anything YOU do or anything any other worker does.

I don't share your binary obsession with class. I'm paid to work in a factory. It's a job, not a way of life.

And yet, you insist on pegging public school teachers as economic royalists or even as pseudo-aristocrats(that's what that puerile reference to "Mr. Chips" was about).  Why?  It's not as though what they gained from their union's victories in the past ever came at YOUR expense.  And it isn't as though there were ever any situations where teachers hurt you and your fellow autoworkers.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Does Horwath believe, or do her advisors believe, the party has to distance itself from public school teachers in order to get elected?

If so, why? 

It's not as if people who hate teachers' unions are going to be in agreement with the NDP on anything ELSE, for God's sakes.  If you think unions have too much power, you're automatically going to be a right-winger on pretty much everything.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Stockholm wrote:

This is absurd. First of all you obviously know NOTHING about Adam Giambrone if you refer to him as "middle aged". He is in his early 30s - in my book that is not middle aged - its young.

Second of all, people can say a lot of things good and bad a bout Giambrone - but this is the first time I have ever seen anyone denounce him as "safe, bland and passion-free". He is none of those things at all. If anything the knock against him is that he is risky, high octane and overly passionate!

Third of all, the idea that because Amarjeet lost a nomination contest to Giambrone will jettison any chance of her ever running for the NDP anywhere agin is ridiculous. LOTS of people lose nomination contests and then get nominated in the same or in another riding in a subsequent election. She apparently made a good impression on people. I would be surprised if she wasn't begged to run in the next provincial or federal riding for the NDP and the experience of having run for an lost a nomination contest will make her that much stroinger and more experienced a candidate.

Ken Burch wrote:

The issue with Giambrone, Stocks, is that it goes without saying that, as a middle aged white man, he can't possibly be as passionate about feminist, anti-racist, and other anti-oppression as the other candidate, the candidate he recruited and then betrayed by running against her and beating her, thus guaranteeing no riding association will EVER nominate her.  That had to be part the reason he was chosen...the argument that his whiteness and maleness will distance himself from the real pain of women and people of color, which will make him "safer" in the eyes of the obsessed about(and, in real life basically nonexistent)"moderate swing voters".

He might win that way, but can he care after changing anything that matters AFTER he wins?  Can any candidate that conveys "safety" and "reassurance" be capable of actually caring about making life different?

Giambrone was nominated as the safe, bland passion free candidate, using the same logic that lost the BCNDP an election they should have been guaranteed to win.

OK, he might have passion.  But clearly the only reason the party intervened and essentially forced him in as the nominee(and that's the only explanation for what happened here)was the belief that they could only win this byelection with a white dude as the nominee.  Obviously he jumped in because Horwath didn't want a woman of color holding the ONDP banner in this contest...there isnt any other reason, since he doesn't have anything else that makes him anybody's definition of "superior" to Ms. Chhadra Ch Wouldn't you agree that NO progressive party should ever think that way?  And wouldn't you have to agree that it's not only cowardice but stupidity for the ONDP to ever try to pander to people who HAVE to have a white candidate to vote for, given that nobody who would refuse to vote for a woman of color could be anything but a right-wing extremist who wouldn't vote for the NDP no matter what?  The fact is, most white guys are going to be right-wing from here on in...so this kind of stunt is useless.

And really, what could Giambrone possibly have to offer, OTHER than white skin, that could possibly justify this arrogant move by him(and obviously secretly instigated by the leader)to leadpipe Ms. Chhadra's candidacy like that at the last minute?  What does anybody think is so bloody MAGICAL about the guy that hardball tactics are justified to force him in over a woman of color?  And what non-reactionary reason could there be to stop Chhadra from above?  Does blocking candidates like that at the last minute EVER lead to anything good for the NDP, anywhere?  Or for any OTHER parties on the Left anywhere?

I just want a straight answer to those questions...because Scarborough is a heavily multicultural riding and every person of color and every woman in that riding was insulted by Giambrone's nomination.  It won't be possible to get those voters to believe he'll fight for them or care about them.  And young women of color like Ms. Chhadra are going to take what happened there as a message that they aren't welcome in the ONDP to do anything but cook ethnic treats for appearances by the white dudes that are running instead of them, white dudes who will never run stronger races than those young women would have run.

Stockholm

Ken Burch wrote:

We've already had one example of Horwath vetoing an ONDP candidate that had been freely and fairly chosen, and refusing to offer any real explanation for doing so for a long time(she should have felt obligated to do so instantly). 

No explanation was needed - it was Barry Weisleder. The only reason they don't expel him from the party altogether is that he is such a repugnant person he actually prevents any serious far left faction from ever emerging in the party.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

But if you're defending that, you're saying that the nomination process ISN'T solely in the hands of the riding associations, and you're saying that it's OK for the leadership to veto legitimately nominated candidates.

Krago

Why is the formatting so shitty when I post from my iPhone?

ETA: Fixed using my desktop.

Krago

Two new Forum Research polls:

Etobicoke-Lakeshore

  • Milcyn (Lib) 45%
  • Holyday (PC) 39%
  • Choo (NDP) 11%
  • Salewsky (Grn) 6%

Scarborough-Guildwood

  • Hunter (Lib) 39%
  • Kirupa (PC) 34%
  • Giambrone (NDP) 18%
  • Pochkhanawala (Grn) 9%

Kaitlin McNabb Kaitlin McNabb's picture

Krago wrote:

Why is the formatting so shitty when I post from my iPhone?

because you have an iPhone --- hey-o! 

(joke and a thread drift.)

infracaninophile infracaninophile's picture

Skinny Dipper wrote:

  However, I do find that the party is proposing piecemeal policies such as lower auto insurance rates and no provincial portion of the HST on home heating.  There doesn't seem to be an overall vision or set of goals for the provincial party.

When I saw and heard Andrea Horwath's video on education and extra curricular activities, it seemed to me that she purposely decided not to use the word "teacher."  Teachers are among the most important stakeholders in education.  I worry if she is going to treat other groups the same way.

Thank you, you've given me plenty to think about. I concur 100% with your last statement and share that concern.

Stockholm

Interesting that they saw fit to poll in the middle of massive floods and power failures that particularly affected south Etobicoke...I'm surprised anyone picked up the phone at all!

Krago wrote:

Two new Forum Research polls:

Etobicoke-Lakeshore

  • Milcyn (Lib) 45%
  • Holyday (PC) 39%
  • Choo (NDP) 11%
  • Salewsky (Grn) 6%

Scarborough-Guildwood

  • Hunter (Lib) 39%
  • Kirupa (PC) 34%
  • Giambrone (NDP) 18%
  • Pochkhanawala (Grn) 9%

autoworker autoworker's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

autoworker wrote:
Ken Burch wrote:

And none of the public school teachers in Ontario have anything in common with Mr. Chips, Jean Brodie or even that fictional guy you mentioned.

Where the hell did you get the idea that teachers are aristocrats, auto?  And what did they ever do to you?  You SHOULD regard them as your fellow workers and be in solidarity with them.  They've always stood up for your CAW brothers and sisters.  They never backed autp industry management against your interests.

There's no difference in class status between public school teachers and your fellow CAW members.  Workers are workers.  Teaching young people in underfunded, undersupplied, decaying public schools is just as much work as anything YOU do or anything any other worker does.

I don't share your binary obsession with class. I'm paid to
work in a factory. It's a job, not a way of life.

And yet, you insist on pegging public school teachers as economic royalists or even as pseudo-aristocrats(that's what that puerile reference to "Mr. Chips" was about).  Why?  It's not as though what they gained from their union's victories in the past ever came at YOUR expense.  And it isn't as though there were ever any situations
where teachers hurt you and your fellow autoworkers.

"Economic royalists"? "Aristocrats"? It seems to me that you're deliberately trying to twist what I've said, to make me out as some crank with a chip on my shoulder. It's that kind of elitist sophistry that makes the working class join the Tea party! Even us dumb-ass plant workers know when were being put in our place. I've read "Animal Farm", btw.

Krago

Here are some maps of Scarborough-Guildwood showing the proportions of Black and South Asian visible minorities in the riding.

 

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