Would a PC party led by Doug Ford reduce the NDP to non-party status in 2018?

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terrytowel

Ken Burch wrote:

It's been irritating, it's been irrational-sounding at times, and it's pretty much turned everyone else here against you...so please, in the name of whatever drives you, can you please give the Fordsteria a rest?

Since they have all left town ABSOLUTELY

Unfortunately we still have Rob around. Bro Doug announced that Toronto now has TWO mayor's running Toronto. John Tory & Rob as 'opposition' leader.

Hopefully Rob will be as marginlized as possible in his reduced role. But I do wish him well in his cancer fight. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

infracaninophile infracaninophile's picture

Frankly, a Doug Ford leadership contest (and even victory) would have been more than likely to benefit the NDP (and Liberals too). A Doug Ford candidacy would have split votes away from Christine Elliott, who is a much more dangerous and formidable potential PC leader (very right-wing, but much more personable and savvy than Tim Hudak) so that possibly a lacklustre candidate would come out on top. Should Ford  hve won, Eureka -- it would have been Tim Hudak all over again, complete with spectacular gaffes and foot-in-mouth disease, and alienation of a number of voters outside the GTA.  He would have been as big a gift to the Liberals and the NDP as Hudak was.  Too bad, in a way, but  Sineed's analysis is correct, I think; Ford will end up back in City Council, protecting Ward 2 from autistic children and carrying on shouting matches in the legislature. 

Geoff

infracaninophile wrote:

Frankly, a Doug Ford leadership contest (and even victory) would have been more than likely to benefit the NDP (and Liberals too). A Doug Ford candidacy would have split votes away from Christine Elliott, who is a much more dangerous and formidable potential PC leader (very right-wing, but much more personable and savvy than Tim Hudak) so that possibly a lacklustre candidate would come out on top. Should Ford  hve won, Eureka -- it would have been Tim Hudak all over again, complete with spectacular gaffes and foot-in-mouth disease, and alienation of a number of voters outside the GTA.  He would have been as big a gift to the Liberals and the NDP as Hudak was.  Too bad, in a way, but  Sineed's analysis is correct, I think; Ford will end up back in City Council, protecting Ward 2 from autistic children and carrying on shouting matches in the legislature. 

Tim Hudak was no gift to the NDP; just check the election results from last June's campaign. A less radicalized conservative leader might at least cause something of a split between Liberals and Conservatives that would reduce the risk of yet another Liberal majority. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

terrytowel wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

It's been irritating, it's been irrational-sounding at times, and it's pretty much turned everyone else here against you...so please, in the name of whatever drives you, can you please give the Fordsteria a rest?

Since they have all left town ABSOLUTELY

Unfortunately we still have Rob around. Bro Doug announced that Toronto now has TWO mayor's running Toronto. John Tory & Rob as 'opposition' leader.

Hopefully Rob will be as marginlized as possible in his reduced role. But I do wish him well in his cancer fight. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Rob(for whom I will also wish better health, being the son of a cancer survivor)is most likely never going to be back in active politics and Doug, who is now out of office and focused on the family business, which he may or may not save, will both be irrelevant in GTA politics and politics at any other level for years to come, if not forever.

What matters now is building a new left politics in the GTA that gets through to former Ford Nation voters that, while past "liberal" mayors were elitist and out-of-touch, Fordite politics doesn't actually help them and that they need to join forces with everybody else on the outside-ethnic communities, other workers, and the poor-in a fight to make a city that's run from the bottom up, not the top down.

Continuing to focus on the evils of one family with one name is now a useless task.  The Fords simply don't matter anymore, and obsessing on "anyone but Ford" politics is no longer going to lead to anything positive for any of the people Fordite politics attacked.

The need now is to talk openly about class and abuse of power, and of the need to find common ground in a program of radical change-not just to work for the  defeat of anybody with the last name of Ford by any means necessary, including replacing them by someone(as just happened)who agrees with them on every major issues but simply happens to be from a different family and have a different personality.  OK?

Rokossovsky

Don't be surprised if he shows up in Etobicoke North, which is presently held by a Liberal. If anyone is going to do the dirty deed on the Liberals in Etobicoke, its the Ford's.

:Embarassed

infracaninophile infracaninophile's picture

Geoff wrote:
Tim Hudak was no gift to the NDP; just check the election results from last June's campaign.

 

Baloney. Tim Hudak was a huge opportunity for the NDP -- a gift handed them on a platter, the likes of which we will never (probably) see again in the foreseeable future.  The election results? Those dismal outcomes were directly the consequence of a horribly mismanaged NDP campaign where the Liberals managed to present themselves as far more "progressive" than the NDP, and where the NDP presented no real vision whatever. Even I, a member, could not recognize core NDP values in the campaign. I am not alone. Most of my NDP friends and neighbours either didn't vote at all or voted Liberal.  

A bumbling extreme right-winger at the head of the PC's is indeed a gift to the NDP -- but of course, it's a gift they can squander, as they did this past spring.  I'm not sanguine about any "lessons learned."  I did not renew my membership. Good riddance.

Rokossovsky

infracaninophile wrote:

Geoff wrote:
Tim Hudak was no gift to the NDP; just check the election results from last June's campaign.

 

Baloney. Tim Hudak was a huge opportunity for the NDP -- a gift handed them on a platter, the likes of which we will never (probably) see again in the foreseeable future.  The election results? Those dismal outcomes were directly the consequence of a horribly mismanaged NDP campaign where the Liberals managed to present themselves as far more "progressive" than the NDP, and where the NDP presented no real vision whatever. Even I, a member, could not recognize core NDP values in the campaign. I am not alone. Most of my NDP friends and neighbours either didn't vote at all or voted Liberal.  

A bumbling extreme right-winger at the head of the PC's is indeed a gift to the NDP -- but of course, it's a gift they can squander, as they did this past spring.  I'm not sanguine about any "lessons learned."  I did not renew my membership. Good riddance.

Good points except for the results of the election show that it was the Liberals that cleaned up on Tory seats. What really happened was that the Hudak gave the Liberals plenty of room to campaign on the right and propose an extreme austerity budget.

Debater

Rokossovsky wrote:

Don't be surprised if he shows up in Etobicoke North, which is presently held by a Liberal. If anyone is going to do the dirty deed on the Liberals in Etobicoke, its the Ford's.

:Embarassed

Provincially or Federally?

Federally the riding is held by Dr. Kirsty Duncan, Liberal MP.  She was the only Liberal MP in the Etobicoke area that managed to survive the Ignatieff debacle in 2011.  Ignatieff himself lost by a substantial margin in Etobicoke-Lakeshore, and Borys W. lost in Etobicoke Centre, albeit by only 25 votes in suspicious circumstances that ended up going to the Supreme Court.

Duncan has shown that she can win in difficult elections and has personal popularity, although I have often wondered what the results would be if a Ford ran federally in Etobicoke North.  But with all the drama surrounding the Fords right now, I don't think Stephen Harper would want that anyway.

adma

And worth noting (in case it hasn't been offered here yet) that in the last provincial election, the PCs were *third*--the ONDP got a quarter of the vote.  (To say nothing of the Ed Philip past, though we're dealing with different demographics, different political climates and all)

terrytowel

Councillor Joe Mihevc — one of the mayor’s harshest critics — sees the Ford era ending with little shame.

“But I don’t think the Ford era is frankly over from a small ‘p’ political perspective,” Mihevc said. “The number of votes (Doug Ford) garnered, 35%, indicate … the degree of alienation and the lack of feeling people have that we are one city.

“Given the electoral map and where Doug Ford got his support and where he didn’t get his support, that to me is an indication that we have a lot of work to do. We are a divided city.”

Mihevc said the end of the Ford mayoralty, shows there is more work to be done to bring a true end to the Ford era.

“They articulate an anger and a sense of not belonging that is out there,” Mihevc said.

“No one should walk away from that election feeling that the Ford era from a political perspective is done — it is not done. That’s frankly the work ahead.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/11/29/end-of-fords-term----but-the-end-of...

The NDP has a lot of work to do to get those voters to support their party.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

OK, they have a lot of work to do.  But you did nothing to assist in that work or  to advance any left-of-centre agenda at all by spending months insisting that Toronto progressives HAD to back a mayoral candidate who agrees with the Fords on everything just so the Fords could be defeated-in-name-only.

terrytowel

Ken Burch wrote:

OK, they have a lot of work to do.  But you did nothing to assist in that work or  to advance any left-of-centre agenda at all by spending months insisting that Toronto progressives HAD to back a mayoral candidate who agrees with the Fords on everything just so the Fords could be defeated-in-name-only.

Ken I thought you said you wanted this issue to rest and not to rehash this again. Even by your own accounts you said we need to move forward, and turn this city left again. What Joe Mehvic said is a good start.

Why are you bringing up old news, I thought we were moving forward.

sherpa-finn

 

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Rokossovsky

Debater wrote:

Rokossovsky wrote:

Don't be surprised if he shows up in Etobicoke North, which is presently held by a Liberal. If anyone is going to do the dirty deed on the Liberals in Etobicoke, its the Ford's.

:Embarassed

Provincially or Federally?

Federally the riding is held by Dr. Kirsty Duncan, Liberal MP.  She was the only Liberal MP in the Etobicoke area that managed to survive the Ignatieff debacle in 2011.  Ignatieff himself lost by a substantial margin in Etobicoke-Lakeshore, and Borys W. lost in Etobicoke Centre, albeit by only 25 votes in suspicious circumstances that ended up going to the Supreme Court.

Duncan has shown that she can win in difficult elections and has personal popularity, although I have often wondered what the results would be if a Ford ran federally in Etobicoke North.  But with all the drama surrounding the Fords right now, I don't think Stephen Harper would want that anyway.

I didn't mean to sour your milk. Never mind....

Mighty Middle

Let's continue this discussion as Doug Ford had said Ford Nation base is made up of 25% of committed NDP supporters. Add to the fact progressives will rush to the Liberals to stop Ford, and will there even be an NDP left after the dust settles?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Let's continue this discussion as Doug Ford had said Ford Nation base is made up of 25% of committed brain-dead NDP supporters. Add to the fact progressives will rush to the Liberals to stop Ford, and will there even be an NDP left after the dust settles?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

As to the question posted by the person who started this thread FOUR YEARS AGO:

A Rob Ford-led Ontario PC party might have been able to do that back then-I doubt a Doug Ford-led Ontario PC would now.

It's likely that whatever hold the Fords had on working-class voters has loosened-at this stage, it's going to be hard for anyone to delude themselves into believing that subjecting themselves to higher transit fares and cuts in services is worth it in the name of sticking it to some imaginary "elite".

WWWTT

Good luck to Rob Ford! Somehow for some reason this clip seems to be appropriate but for some reason I can't put my finger on it?

https://youtu.be/wcW_Ygs6hm0

 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
it's going to be hard for anyone to delude themselves into believing that subjecting themselves to higher transit fares and cuts in services is worth it in the name of sticking it to some imaginary "elite".

It worked in Toronto that one time.  Maybe the citizens of Coboconk, ON, have other ideas, but I think there's always going to be some subset of the Conservative base that will vote for any Conservative no matter what -- if they promise to bring comeuppance to the "elites" then that's just the cherry on the sundae.  Surely the Americans who voted Trump didn't do so because he was the smartest or the most experienced or had everyone's best interests in mind.  They literally voted for a man who promised to return them to paying for their triple-bypass surgery out of pocket.

If there's any saving grace, it's that Doug Ford is to Rob Ford as Jim Belushi is to John Belushi.

cco

Well, the exit polls showed that the Trump swing voters weren't, in fact, the trailer park crowd, but suburbanites making $70,000/year. I suspect the irreducible Mike Harris/Doug Ford base in the 905 is similarly composed.

quizzical

all mute contentions it will be Caroline

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

It's likely that whatever hold the Fords had on working-class voters has loosened-at this stage, it's going to be hard for anyone to delude themselves into believing that subjecting themselves to higher transit fares and cuts in services is worth it in the name of sticking it to some imaginary "elite".

Ask Ontario Trump supporters and they would believe all that coming from Ford. In fact only 19% of Canadians have a high approval of Donald Trump, and I would suspect that number holds in Ontario. I mean The Toronto Sun is practically a Canadian Trump propaganda machine.

Progressives would stampede to Wynne Liberals to stop Ford. and with 25% of committed NDP voters supporting Ford, how decimated with the NDP be after the dust settles?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

And with that, you admit that you're just hoping to use this to revive "strategic voting" in an era when there's no good reason ever to do it again.

​The need for that vanished when Harper and Harris left the scene.  

 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

How cool that Mighty Middle has revived an old thread which he himself started when he was known as terrytowel, and how obvious that he has not changed at all in the meanwhile.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

And with that, you admit that you're just hoping to use this to revive "strategic voting" in an era when there's no good reason ever to do it again.

​The need for that vanished when Harper and Harris left the scene.  

​The need for that vanished when Harper and Harris left the scene.  

Which will be re-entered by Doug Ford

From last June, 2017

Thirty-six years since Sault Ste. Marie last sent a Conservative to Queens Park, Doug Ford Jr. was in town last night to celebrate the byelection victory of Ross Romano.

And, to officially welcome the Sault into the Toronto-based Conservative populist phenomenon known as Ford Nation.

"I love Sault Ste. Marie. They're down to earth. They are Ford Nation. They're great," crowed the older brother of former Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, who died of cancer 14 months ago.

Was Doug Ford Jr. really expropriating us into Ford Nation?

"Absolutely," the former Toronto city councillor told SooToday.

"We have Ford Nation up here, a lot of supporters. God bless Sault Ste. Marie and the people here. I love 'em!"

https://www.sudbury.com/around-the-north/doug-ford-welcome-to-ford-natio...

Pogo Pogo's picture

MM by hitching your strategic voting to Doug Ford, what does that say if/when he is not the selection?

Mighty Middle

Pogo wrote:

MM by hitching your strategic voting to Doug Ford, what does that say if/when he is not the selection?

Breath a sigh of relief

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Admit it, MM...you're just going to keep demanding that all progressives "strategically" vote Liberal(we all know "strategic voting NEVER involves Liberals voting NDP in NDP-PC or NDP-Con ridings and never will) no matter what.  

All this is about with you is this notion that the Liberals are simply ENTITLED to all progressive votes, no matter wh0 leads them or how right-wing they get.

You even pushed it in 2011, a year when there was no good reason for any progressive voters in any riding in Canada to vote Liberal, when there was no chance that voting Liberal anywhere would have prevented Harper from winning a majority.

Enough already.

Mr. Magoo

People tend to strategically vote when they go to some chicken wing place.

"Well, I really, really don't want the 'burn your anus with fire' wings.  But I don't feel like the 'lightly boiled' wings can beat that, so I guess I'll go with 'medium hot'".

Strategic voting always benefits the party in the middle.

Has there EVER been a time when it benefitted the party on the right, or the party on the left?  Ever?

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

You even pushed it in 2011, a year when there was no good reason for any progressive voters in any riding in Canada to vote Liberal, when there was no chance that voting Liberal anywhere would have prevented Harper from winning a majority.

Enough already.

I think you mean 2015 where groups like "Vote Together" "Lead  Now" and Unifor leader Jerry Dias were all preaching strategic voting in that election.

 

jerrym

Fedeli says he is not running for permanent leader so he can "root out the rot" that is extensive within the party. If this is how they run a party, imagine what they could do running a province.

Only a Liberal backing the scandal plagued, debt-ridden Wynne government would say the problem is the NDP, not the Conservatives under these circumstances. 

The newly appointed interim leader of Ontario’s Progressive Conservatives vowed Tuesday to clean up the party, “root out the rot” and ensure a fair leadership contest following the resignation of top leaders amid sexual misconduct allegations. ...

The party has been in turmoil since last week when Brown resigned after vehemently denying sexual misconduct allegations reported by CTV News. The allegations have not been independently verified by The Canadian Press.

In October, Brown boasted of growing the party’s base to 127,000 members from about 10,000 following the Tories’ 2014 election loss. The number has since grown to 200,000.

“Frankly, I think I opened the party up to tens of thousands more who simply want a reasonable, thoughtful…modern, inclusive PC party,” he told The Canadian Press in an interview late last year. ...

Questions have been raised, however, about the party’s membership figures, which Fedeli said will be scrutinized through an analysis of the party’s membership rolls.

The interim leader has also ordered an overhaul of the party’s membership management system, which was hacked in early November.

“Fixing this, and it needs fixing, will be a massive undertaking,” he said. “But it is absolutely essential and absolutely doable if we’re to win the next election.” ...

The party has also been grappling with the departure of former president Rick Dykstra, who resigned Sunday, just hours after Maclean’s magazine published a report in which a woman alleged she was a young Conservative staffer in Ottawa when she was sexually assaulting by Dykstra in 2014, when he was an MP. 

http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/vic-fedeli-wont-seek-permanent-lea...

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

You even pushed it in 2011, a year when there was no good reason for any progressive voters in any riding in Canada to vote Liberal, when there was no chance that voting Liberal anywhere would have prevented Harper from winning a majority.

Enough already.

I think you mean 2015 where groups like "Vote Together" "Lead  Now" and Unifor leader Jerry Dias were all preaching strategic voting in that election.

 

The case for "strategic voting" died when the federal Cons and the Ontario PC's were voted out.   There's no case for ever doing it again.

There's no need to reduce the choice to Conservative vs. Liberal for the rest of eternity.

 

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

You even pushed it in 2011, a year when there was no good reason for any progressive voters in any riding in Canada to vote Liberal, when there was no chance that voting Liberal anywhere would have prevented Harper from winning a majority.

Enough already.

I think you mean 2015 where groups like "Vote Together" "Lead  Now" and Unifor leader Jerry Dias were all preaching strategic voting in that election.

 

The case for "strategic voting" died when the federal Cons and the Ontario PC's were voted out.   There's no case for ever doing it again.

There's no need to reduce the choice to Conservative vs. Liberal for the rest of eternity.

 

I think strategic voting will be a part of our FPTP politics as long as we have FPTP and more than two majour political parties. That's one of the reasons we need electoral reform.

Pondering

Strategic voting is less important than ever because we have a working example in BC of two parties ousting the party that won the most seats. Citizens seem just fine with it. If the Conservatives won a minority the NDP and the Liberals could team up to oust the Conservatives. 

Strategic voting is not something that needs to be promoted it is something citizens do automatically if they personally fear one party more than they support another. If they don't no amount of pleading will work and voters seem to react badly to a party begging for strategic votes. It's admitting you don't have much to offer beyond not being the other guy. 

The Liberals have been in power for a long time. They have to run on their record, credibility and platform.

JKR

Pondering wrote:

The Liberals have been in power for a long time. They have to run on their record, credibility and platform.

Historically the LPC has also continuously supported strategic voting and they've benefited from it as they have been Canada's "natural governing party." That all might change in 2019 as nothing lasts forever but somehow I doubt it. I think the federal Liberals know why they chose to maintain FPTP after promising to get rid of it.

Mighty Middle

But in 2015 when the NDP were leading the polls the slogan was

"Only the NDP can defeat Stephen Harper".

Then when they starting to decline the narrative was

"The NDP have over 100 incumbents. We only need 35 more seats to defeat Stephen Harper"

"The NDP is only 35 seats away from defeating Stephen Harper"

"We only need 35 more seats. Were as the Liberals need over 100 seats. That is impossible"

So if everyone agreed with that way of thinking, to STOP Doug Ford (like the NDP had all those STOP HARPER signs)

"Only the Liberals can defeat Doug Ford"

"The Liberals have 50 incumbents. We only need 12 more seats to defeat Doug Ford"

"The Liberals are only 12 seats away from defeating Doug Ford"

"We only need 12 more seats. Were as the NDP need 47 seats."

So that is narrative from 2015 preached by the NDP. btw Trudeau NEVER ONCE advocated strategic voting in 2015, Not once. So if it is good enough for the NDP to preach that in 2015, why can't the Ontario Liberals do the same since they are ahead of the NDP in the polls?

Pogo Pogo's picture

Strategic voting in practice is almost anything but strategic.  People in two party races vote for the third party because of a national/provincial message. What is clear is that arguing for a strategic vote is often just saying vote for my guy.  Rarely do you see someone say vote for X because it is a strategic necessity who doesn't want people to vote for X regardless. It is kind of a story to hide behind when you cannot make a straightforward case for your party.

Pogo Pogo's picture

Strategic voting in practice is almost anything but strategic.  People in two party races vote for the third party because of a national/provincial message. What is clear is that arguing for a strategic vote is often just saying vote for my guy.  Rarely do you see someone say vote for X because it is a strategic necessity who doesn't want people to vote for X regardless. It is kind of a story to hide behind when you cannot make a straightforward case for your party.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

But in 2015 when the NDP were leading the polls the slogan was

"Only the NDP can defeat Stephen Harper".

Then when they starting to decline the narrative was

"The NDP have over 100 incumbents. We only need 35 more seats to defeat Stephen Harper"

"The NDP is only 35 seats away from defeating Stephen Harper"

"We only need 35 more seats. Were as the Liberals need over 100 seats. That is impossible"

So if everyone agreed with that way of thinking, to STOP Doug Ford (like the NDP had all those STOP HARPER signs)

"Only the Liberals can defeat Doug Ford"

"The Liberals have 50 incumbents. We only need 12 more seats to defeat Doug Ford"

"The Liberals are only 12 seats away from defeating Doug Ford"

"We only need 12 more seats. Were as the NDP need 47 seats."

So that is narrative from 2015 preached by the NDP. btw Trudeau NEVER ONCE advocated strategic voting in 2015, Not once. So if it is good enough for the NDP to preach that in 2015, why can't the Ontario Liberals do the same since they are ahead of the NDP in the polls?

Actually, the Liberals would defeat Doug Ford(who we both know isn't going to be PC leader) simply by holding onto their existing bloc of seats and then working out a confidence-and-supply agreement with the ONDP.  They don't NEED a majority to do that and they don't need to make massive seat gains at the expense of the ONDP to do that.

 

Mr. Magoo

I've said before, but I'll say again, it's unfortunate that at some point the electoral system --flawed or not -- stopped being about supporting the candidate or party you agree with, and became "un"-supporting the candidate or party you disagree with the most.

I've also said before -- and will also say again -- maybe we should consider turning electoral politics upside down, such that every eligible citizen can vote for whoever they most want to NOT win.  Whoever gets the LEAST such votes is asked to form government.

cco

The ensuing accidental Animal Rights/Rhinoceros/Confederation of Regions/Marxist-Leninist coalition government would certainly be entertaining.

Mr. Magoo

I think lots of electors would spend their vote to prevent K0ok parliament.  And if not then they would reap what they sowed.

But if voting no longer means choosing the person/party you support (and, rather, voting against the person/party you hate with the intensity of a collapsed sun) then it would at least be interesting to see where it led.

Right now, voting NDP could mean "squandering" your one vote on a party that might not win.

Under my "negative voting" rules, voting [against] The Christian Animal Marijuana Taxpayers' Party might mean squandering your vote on a party that could never win.

Really, though, I'm only suggesting that there's a difference between voting for what you want and voting against what you don't want.

The biggest problem is that this thinking only benefits medium chicken wings.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

 Doug Ford(who we both know isn't going to be PC leader)

And you know this how?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mighty Middle wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

You even pushed it in 2011, a year when there was no good reason for any progressive voters in any riding in Canada to vote Liberal, when there was no chance that voting Liberal anywhere would have prevented Harper from winning a majority.

Enough already.

I think you mean 2015 where groups like "Vote Together" "Lead  Now" and Unifor leader Jerry Dias were all preaching strategic voting in that election.

 

No, I mean 2011, when you were STILL arguing for "strategic voting"(by which you meant "vote Liberal no matter where you live") even though you knew the Liberal vote had collapsed and that in most of the country your notion of "strategic voting" would simply have resulted in a LARGER majority for Harper.

And it doesn't matter if Justin advocated it or not.  No Liberal leader ever actually does.

Mighty Middle

Ken Burch wrote:

No, I mean 2011, when you were STILL arguing for "strategic voting"

If you are confusing me with this "Terrytowel" he didn't join this forum, until 2012.

Ken Burch wrote:

And it doesn't matter if Justin advocated it or not.  No Liberal leader ever actually does.

Actually Paul Martin did twice (2004 & 2006) and Kathleen Wynne did in 2014

And you still need to answer this question

Ken Burch wrote:

Doug Ford(who we both know isn't going to be PC leader)

And you know this how?

Ciabatta2

Ford doesn't have as wide support as terrytowel says he does, but he's still terrible for NDP prospects as he nibbles their lunch on both sides.

The idea of Ford remixed is even more "scary" than Hudak, which will direct marginal NDP voters to the Liberals.  Ford also siphons just enough NDP support in the southern Golden Horseshoe, SW Ontario and bits of the north to bring the Liberals into play in some of NDP ridings.

Brown was an excellent PC leader for the NDP because his messages were bland, his appeal shallow, and his persona was inauthentic.

Fedeli was an ok leader for NDP prospects as he is relatively unknown and uninteresting. 

Caroline Mulroney would be fantastic for NDP prospects as she conflicts the most with Wynne, and provides the most contrast to Horwath.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I think that the onus is on anyone claiming Doug Ford has a chance to show some non-municipal polling to back this up this claim.

progressive17 progressive17's picture

So, when any millionaire jackass like Donald Trump or Doug Ford whines about "elites", NDP voters come running?

Mighty Middle

Pogo wrote:

I think that the onus is on anyone claiming Doug Ford has a chance to show some non-municipal polling to back this up this claim.

Mainstreet Poll where Doug Ford comes in FIRST in every demo and region except for the 416 and voters 18 -34. He is even polling higher with women than either Kathleen Wynne and Andrea Horwath. NDP doesn't lead in any demo or region

"Would you vote for the PC Party if Doug Ford were leader?"

PC Party (with Doug Ford) - 36.1%

Liberals (With Kathleen Wynne) - 26%

NDP (with Andrea Horwath) - 17%

Male

Doug Ford – 39.8%

Kathleen Wynne - 23.8%

Andrea Horwath - 15%

Female

Doug Ford – 32.5%

Kathleen Wynne - 28.1%

Andrea Horwath – 18.9%

18 – 34

Kathleen Wynne – 34.2%

Doug Ford – 33.3%

Andrea Horwath – 14.7%

35 – 49

Doug Ford – 38.1%

Kathleen Wynne – 21.9%

Andrea Horwath – 20%

50 – 64

Doug Ford – 38.9%

Kathleen Wynne – 22.8%

Andrea Horwath – 17.2%

65+

Doug Ford – 33.4%

Kathleen Wynne – 23.9%

Andrea Horwath – 16.2%

416

Kathleen Wynne – 35.9%

Doug Ford – 32.6%

Andrea Horwath – 17.9%

905

Doug Ford – 39.4%

Kathleen Wynne – 27.1%

Andrea Horwath – 12.5%

Eastern Ontario

Doug Ford – 35%

Kathleen Wynne – 21.1%

Andrea Horwath – 19.2%

South Central Ontario

Doug Ford – 37%

Kathleen Wynne – 25.1%

Andrea Horwath – 14.8%

South Western Ontario

Doug Ford – 37%

Andrea Horwath – 20.4%

Kathleen Wynne – 19.3%

Northern Ontario

Doug Ford – 31.6%

Andrea Horwath – 21.3%

Kathleen Wynne – 17.3%

https://www.mainstreetresearch.ca/post-patrick-brown-poll-certainty-onta...

Mighty Middle

progressive17 wrote:

So, when any millionaire jackass like Donald Trump or Doug Ford whines about "elites", NDP voters come running?

youngsocialist wrote:

Can you really be mad at us for voting for Ford when our so called NDP councillors don't give a fuck about our problems? You are more likely to get a response from Rob Ford on the phone than my NDP councillor who is too busy eating at fancy restaurants and attending parties than to even respond to your tweets. You want our vote? Then show us that you value my time and money. Stop putting money into projects that have failed, come up with new ideas AND even listen to ours!

NDP: Pretends to care.

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