Québec solidaire - the thread

309 posts / 0 new
Last post
Unionist

swallow wrote:

VotD, I think May Chiu is basically correct in her overall message; my concern is that an anglo emdia source is disorting a story for clicks. Chiu says that some training on how to avoid this sort of language is needed. It is. QS can up its game on inclusion, where it is far and away the best party in Quebec. It needs to think about integrating land rights and food sovereignty with First Nations and Inuit sovereignty, not treat them as separate dossiers. 

I do not think this deputy is an "idiot." She is a good young activist with strogn roots in her community and an awareness of non-urban Quebec that the party lacks. She does need to learn a lot about anti-racism and using care when referirng to multinational companies from China as "les chinois." But so do lots of people in their twenties. And thirties, and forties, and fifities, and on. 

Well well. Having read your reply above, I must say, I agree. Well said! I withdraw my earlier comments in their entirety. They were just typical me, replying to the exaggerated smear in some anglo media. Thanks for the common sense.

WWWTT

As far as foreign ownership of land goes, I believe that there is a double standard in existence. Maybe not from babblers, maybe so?

http://www.buybrazilland.com/rainforest-property-for-sale/

Ive read of Europeans buying huge tracts of the rain forest lands in Brazil for environmental reasons. 

So what if a wealthy foreigner wanted to buy thousands of hectares of farmland in Quebec and return it to natural wooded growth for environmental reasons?

cco

The day Quebec has a fascist government like Bolsonaro's, abandons all pretext of environmental protection, and puts everything up for sale so foreign purchase is the only remaining conservation option, maybe that'll be worth considering. Considering by the people who are still here, that is, because I doubt I'd stick around for a Bolsonaro-style government.

lagatta4

I don't mind wealthy Europeans doing that AS LONG AS they allow Indigenous peoples continue to use the land traditionally. Bolsonaro has pretty much declared open season on Indigenous Brazilians.

Though obviously a landless movement would be better, and the landless farmworkers' movement is definitely high on Bolsonaro's hit list.

Unionist

Lagatta - any thoughts on Émilise Lessard-Therrien's comments and the reaction to that? Should we push for QS to explain, or retract, or whatever?

WWWTT

@cco and lagatta

Ya who knows what the right wing fascists in Brazil are going to do?  All good points made. Perhaps part of my point is related to natural environmental issues and is kind of separated from this thread

lagatta4

I think they were more sloppy than anything else - even here on rabble we have threads titled "France", just as an example, without reference to the social actors or forces involved. I doubt she has studied a lot about anti-Asian racism in North America; most school-level course material I've seen adresses Indigenous peoples, Black Slavery, the Holocaust and other genocides. I'm sure a lot of non-racist people know nothing about Chinese exclusion acts and other exclusion and bigotry against both East Asians and South Asians. That does mean that the party should partner with anti-racist groups on these issues, especially around the international day against racism in the month of March.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The day Quebec has a fascist government like Bolsonaro's, abandons all pretext of environmental protection, and puts everything up for sale so foreign purchase is the only remaining conservation option, maybe that'll be worth considering.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Bolsonaro; the "buybrazilland" site has been around for four years and predates him by about three and a half.

Meanwhile, isn't singling out Chinese businesses just more "demonization of China"?

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

cco wrote:
The day Quebec has a fascist government like Bolsonaro's, abandons all pretext of environmental protection, and puts everything up for sale so foreign purchase is the only remaining conservation option, maybe that'll be worth considering. Considering by the people who are still here, that is, because I doubt I'd stick around for a Bolsonaro-style government.

I don't think you're going to have to wait long..the legault government is governing as advertised...they will survive,i don't think I can say the same about you and me

swallow swallow's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
The day Quebec has a fascist government like Bolsonaro's, abandons all pretext of environmental protection, and puts everything up for sale so foreign purchase is the only remaining conservation option, maybe that'll be worth considering.

Not sure what any of this has to do with Bolsonaro; the "buybrazilland" site has been around for four years and predates him by about three and a half.

Meanwhile, isn't singling out Chinese businesses just more "demonization of China"?

No, it isn't. Please don't bring that silly thread into this one. 

Pondering

I did watch the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL_IJ3r8xek

She acknowledges there is a federal law barring foreign entities from buying agricultural land in Canada. She doesn't say anything about lobbying efforts by China or any other country to overturn that law. She doesn't suggest Quebec should have their own law or a stronger law. She states that in China there are large agricultural producers who hire people at minimum wage to cultivate the land. The interviewer states that for some it is imperceptible. She then goes on to explain that with climate change Quebec has a lot of water and unexploited agricultural land. She says that the Chinese have come to Temiscamingue and they have large projects after which she admits they can't buy land but they are walking around, meeting people and they are preparing the ground to eventually get it and amongst ourselves we call them predators and we see them we sense (smell) them. Fallow land could be cultivated again but if it goes to China it will never feed Quebecers again. It's important we address it now because eventually as world population goes up and climate change hits we have to think about what we want. The more we nourish ourselves the more independent we are from other countries. 

That is an extremely off the cuff translation not a professional translation. I think she meant "sense" not "smell" which is a bit less offensive. 

Nevertheless she is claiming that the Chinese are there in Temiscamingue now laying out the ground work and the only thing stopping them is the federal law. 

I think it is far more likely that US companies will be trying to get our water and farm land although I agree that China is probably trying to buy agricultural land in the world. I don't believe there are Chinese investors in Temiscamingue scoping it out. 

She's an MP, I get that rank and file MPs are amateurs and they can  misspeak but even so that was a pretty explicit claim. 

A key point for me is that QS is backing her up. They are not saying she misspoke. My point is not that QS is racist. It is that they lack integrity at least in this instance and it is an important one. 

There is a Canadian federal law preventing foreign ownership of agricultural land. Unless someone is lobbying to have that law changed or at least some debate on the topic there is zero risk of Chinese investors buying it up and shipping all the food to China depriving Quebecers of nourishment. 

QS, not just that MP, is claiming that this is a threat. They singled out China. It's bullshit. If there are threats to Quebec farmland it has nothing to do do with China or Chinese investors. 

QS should have said she misspoke and was referring to problems that may occur in future due to climate change and growing world population. She should not have singled out the Chinese. 

 

 

 

WWWTT

@ swallow

The demonization of China thread is not silly in the least as you suggest. Mr Mago is correct to suggest it. Not sure if he’s sincere though?  

I did read up on some stuff here and this issue of China seeking to acquire farmland or potential farmland does have a biased demonization tone to it. 

However, having said that, I posted the foreigners purchasing land in Brazil for several reasons. And none of them about their current government (not to say that those aren’t good points)

For whatever reasons, it’s up to Quebec to determine if foreigners can own land zoned for agricultural in Quebec. 

Im not even sure what the Chinese would grow? Soybeans? Ginseng? Grain? To me, it would make more sense that a US company would be more interested in making a move into Quebec. 

swallow swallow's picture

I think there's a tie to the growing global problem of "land grabbing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_grabbing

China has been accused of doing a lot of land grabbing, especually in Africa. You'll like htis, WWWTT: it's not really accurate. 

Our team at the International Food Policy Research Institute and at Johns Hopkins University collected a database of 57 cases where Chinese firms (or the government) were alleged to have acquired or negotiated large (over 500 hectare) amounts of African farmland. If all of these media reports had been real news, this would have amounted to a very alarming 6 million hectares — 1 percent of all the farmland in Africa.

We spent three years tracking down every single case. We travelled from Madagascar to Mozambique, Zimbabwe to Zambia. We confirmed that nearly a third of these stories, including the three above, were literally false. In the remaining cases, we found real Chinese investments. But the total amount of land actually acquired by Chinese firms was only about 240,000 hectares: 4 percent of the reported amount.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/theworldpost/wp/2018/04/12/china-afr...

I think the QS response - Lessard-Therrien was talking about foreign investors, not individual Chinese, when she spoke of predators - is correct. But I also think QS needs to work on a consistent anti-racist appraoch with their team. I would imagine that is under way, based on what I know of the SQ brain trust in Montreal and Quebec. At the same time, QS needs to continue working on its openness to Quebec outdside the metropole, and the MNAs from Abitibi-Temiskaming and Sherbrooke -- young activist women both -- will need to be a big part of that. 

On a local effort by Christine Labrie, the wonderful MNA for Sherbrooke: https://www.sherbrookerecord.com/labries-%C2%ADparticipatory-budget-yiel...

Pondering

What the Chinese are doing in Africa is immaterial. Neither the Chinese nor the Americans no anyone else can buy agricultural land in Quebec. Lessard-Therrien said she/we sense these predators from China in Temiskaming scoping out the land. At no point did she mention investors in general nor any threat to the law preventing them from buying land in Quebec.

There is zero threat of investors from China scoping out Temiskaming for agricultural land. It is a bogus imaginary threat and she singled out China as the country these predators are coming from. 

At the same time, QS needs to continue working on its openness to Quebec outdside the metropole, and the MNAs from Abitibi-Temiskaming and Sherbrooke -- young activist women both -- will need to be a big part of that. 

So for that reason QS should just lie and pretend it wasn't said? I'm not saying she should resign or eat dirt. I'm saying she should apologize and admit agricultural land in Quebec is not under threat and that she shouldn't have singled out the Chinese. 

If a Liberal, or CAQ, or PQ representative had said what Lessard-Therrien said QS and this board would have been all over them with accusations of racism.

If QS should be excused because it is QS, then it is no different than any other political party willing to toss ethics to the side for political expediency. 

lagatta4

In other news, Québec Superior Court has forced the study of the 18,000 immigration files Legault's government wanted to bin: https://www.nsnews.com/quebec-judge-grants-injunction-in-the-case-of-18-...

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/quebec-judge-grant...

Of course Québec solidaire's activism on this issue wasn't the only factor - Federal-Provincial squabbles and other factors must have played a role, but there was an extremely positive response to the party's initiative.

As for corporations taking control of farmland and agricultural industries, I most certainly wouldn't rule it out. Don't see how Chinese corporations would be any different from others. The problem was the unthinking use of "Chinese" rather than specifying corporations.

Pondering

lagatta4 wrote:

As for corporations taking control of farmland and agricultural industries, I most certainly wouldn't rule it out. Don't see how Chinese corporations would be any different from others. The problem was the unthinking use of "Chinese" rather than specifying corporations.

It did not come across as unthinking. She was clearly not referring to Canadian and Quebec corporations which would be the only actual threat as they are permitted to buy agricultural land in Temiskaming. 

Is there any threat to the Canadian law preventing foreign ownership of Canadian agricultural land? What risk is she trying to highlight here? Is there any lobbying going on? Can foreign entitities hide behind Canadian fronts? Who is it we are supposed to be wary of and why? Who are the predators she is sensing lurking about Temiskaming?

I am well aware of QS's official position and defense of immigrant rights. The Liberals are big on immigrants too. Would that be a shield if one of their MPs said what Lessard-Therrien said?

Lessard-Therrien has not said she was referring to corporations in general so why should I believe that was the case? I've never said corporations from China or Chinese corporations when I meant corporations in general. If I somehow made such a slip of the tongue I would correct myself immediately because it's so obvious it would be jarring to me. 

QS is standing behind her comment therefore they have to wear it. If they don't want to wear it they need to say she misspoke and was misinformed. Chinese investors are no threat to Quebec agricultural land as they are not permitted to buy it. Because of that they are unlikely to be in Quebec at the moment. Her senses are mistaken. 

You know I greatly admire both QS spokespeople and although I don't know Lessard-Therrien she seems like someone I would admire. I am willing to put her comment down to ignorance rather than racism even though she knew the federal law prevented them from buying land. What's bothering me is the evasion. It isn't big news so the evasion will probably work. It is still disillusioning and alarming.

swallow swallow's picture

Lessard-Therrien has not said she was referring to corporations in general

She has now: 

Ce que j’ai dénoncé, ce sont les groupes d’investisseurs étrangers, mais aussi québécois comme PANGEA, qui mettent la main sur de grandes superficies de terres agricoles

She also apologized for her words.

Full comments at https://www.facebook.com/ELessardTherrien/

She made a similar point on Feb. 18, at https://twitter.com/emiliselt/status/1097636124875476993

Unionist

swallow wrote:

Lessard-Therrien has not said she was referring to corporations in general

She has now: 

Ce que j’ai dénoncé, ce sont les groupes d’investisseurs étrangers, mais aussi québécois comme PANGEA, qui mettent la main sur de grandes superficies de terres agricoles

She also apologized for her words.

Full comments at https://www.facebook.com/ELessardTherrien/

She made a similar point on Feb. 18, at https://twitter.com/emiliselt/status/1097636124875476993

Thanks very much, swallow (and of course, Émilise!) for setting the record straight. Better a little late than never. But more political experience is required to help avoid crazy reactions (just scanning through some of the ultra-reactionary comments on her Facebook post of yesterday), as well as sincere reactions by marginalized people who believe, even erroneously, that they have been singled out for attack.

And what's this about a demo on the weekend (from her post)? Need to go find what that's about. Not good.

WWWTT

So Emilise is sorry after people stood up to her racist comments. And all is forgivin? 

 

Unionist

So there's supposedly going to be some kind of anti-racist demonstration or rally in Montréal on Sunday in connection with Émilise's remards - and they even have a Québec Solidaire member, Jason Phelps, involved:

Une manifestation s'organise à Montréal en lien avec des propos maladroits d'Émilise Lessard-Therrien

Émilise said she can't be in Montréal that day. As a member of QS, I would strongly suggest that she change her precious plans, get her butt to Montréal, and face the music. I'm sure she can handle it. But we have an expression in French: "Les absents ont tort."

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

So Emilise is sorry after people stood up to her racist comments. And all is forgivin? 

 

It's not clear that anybody was claiming that all is forgiven.  Care to say what you'd need to hear to accept that this has been fully addressed?

WWWTT

Ya she quits and leaves public life.

lagatta4

How about you do that? You have made several offensive comments here. People have been willing to accept your apologies.

WWWTT

I’m not in public life making money on the tax payers dime for starters. 

Want to elaborate on what I said offensive? Was it directed at someone’s etnicity? Religion? Sexual orientation? 

lagatta4

No, I don't want to. I am not going to waste my time combing over your many offensive posts. I accept them as unfamiliarity, just as I think of hers. I don't hate you or think that you are an anti-Québécois bigot, but you do have things to learn. So does she. People who hate racialised people would not choose QS here.

Unionist

lagatta4 wrote:

No, I don't want to. I am not going to waste my time combing over your many offensive posts. I accept them as unfamiliarity, just as I think of hers. I don't hate you or think that you are an anti-Québécois bigot, but you do have things to learn. So does she. People who hate racialised people would not choose QS here.

You speak for me too, lagatta - thank you.

WWWTT

So in other words you can’t back up what you’re implying. Anyways, this isn’t about me is it? It’s about Emilise. About what was said. 

What you’re saying about QS doesn’t really fit in with this upcoming protest in Montreal? Considering May Chui is a former member of QS, sounds like QS has some issues to resolve. 

As far as me being anti Québécois bigot? Perhaps anti white?

lagatta4

What a pile of nonsense. Good night, and keep up the good fight against racism. Including anglo-Canadian bigotry against francopones. I presume that you do know that it was closely linked to anti-Indigenous racism.

I am NOT going to waste a swath of my life speaking out against the many derogatory comments you have made about several groups of humans.

WWWTT

Lol! No problem lagatta, don’t take it so hard. And yes I’m aware of anglo anti french anti catholic history (Louis Riel) probably not as well as the other posters here such as yourself. But really lagatta, I’m Portuguese and have lots of cousins Aunt uncle in Montreal and Laval and in rural Quebec. My parents lived in Montreal for 5 years before I was born and my mom worked as a seamstress there. Religion had a lot to do with it. Not that I care for anything about religion. 

Pondering

Better late than never, but I also hope QS learned from this including the leadership that fully backed her comment. 

Unionist

Pondering wrote:

Better late than never, but I also hope QS learned from this including the leadership that fully backed her comment. 

Just curious as to your source for that statement - besides the issue of who you think "the leadership" of QS is. I'm a member, and nobody leads me. So that's two questions, when you have a moment.

Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Better late than never, but I also hope QS learned from this including the leadership that fully backed her comment. 

Just curious as to your source for that statement - besides the issue of who you think "the leadership" of QS is. I'm a member, and nobody leads me. So that's two questions, when you have a moment.

Probably CTV news. GND stated they supported her, this was prior to her apology. This board also minimized her words when the board would have ripped a Liberal or Conservative to shreads for saying that. 

That does seem like partisanship to me. My admiration for QS is rooted in their integrity and authenticity. I do believe that they have to be somewhat pragmatic but that wasn't pragmatism. It was knee-jerk circle the wagons. 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/a-new-poll-suggests-alberta-is-the-...

In contrast, in an October 2016 poll, 82 per cent of Quebecers said they have no desire to revisit the idea of sovereignty any time soon.

A political party should lead and should be true to its values but it should also know when it has lost an argument so needs to find a new approach. I am not saying QS should drop the idea from its philosophy but like the PQ, they need to acknowledge the numbers and prove themselves as a provincial government before pushing indepedence from Canada. 82% don't want to talk about it. 

pietro_bcc

Quebec Solidaire isn't a racist party. And it was certainly a valid concern that she brought up considering what's happening in the real estate market in North America's largest cities. Corrupt Chinese oligarchs are buying up real estate in big cities as stores of value. This is also happening with some agricultural land in Canada, but to a lesser extent than residential real estate (though not in Quebec because we have laws that prevent sale to non-residents, but with the right wing anti-regulation CAQ now in power, its fair to have some fear in such restrictions being loosened.) Perhaps she needs to be more precise in her language and actually spell out that she's refering to corrupt Chinese oligarchs and not just saying Chinese people. Frankly, ownership of any agricultural or residential property should be restricted to at least those who have permanent residency status.

 

We have a CAQ government that is pushing some of the most bigotted laws in decades and people are piling on to QS, complete nonsense.

Pondering

pietro_bcc wrote:
Quebec Solidaire isn't a racist party. And it was certainly a valid concern that she brought up considering what's happening in the real estate market in North America's largest cities. Corrupt Chinese oligarchs are buying up real estate in big cities as stores of value. This is also happening with some agricultural land in Canada, but to a lesser extent than residential real estate (though not in Quebec because we have laws that prevent sale to non-residents, but with the right wing anti-regulation CAQ now in power, its fair to have some fear in such restrictions being loosened.) Perhaps she needs to be more precise in her language and actually spell out that she's refering to corrupt Chinese oligarchs and not just saying Chinese people. Frankly, ownership of any agricultural or residential property should be restricted to at least those who have permanent residency status.

We have a CAQ government that is pushing some of the most bigotted laws in decades and people are piling on to QS, complete nonsense.

We know CAQ is racist. QS is not supposed to be racist therefore we don't expect racist comments from them. There is no evidence that Chinese speculators have targeted Quebec agricultural land. There is no known threat to the law protecting Quebec agricultural land. 

If there is a pile-on it is because posters are defending a racist comment because it came from a QS representative. 

That is the definition of bias. It's okay for the QS to make racist statements but they are not really racist because it's the QS and the QS isn't racist therefore their statements can't be racist and anyway the CAQ is worse is not a defense it is prevaricating. 

It is the denial of responsibility that is making a mountain out of a molehill not the comment in and of itself. She wasn't talking about corporations in general. She was talking about Chinese corporations specifically. It doesn't matter that she was referring to corporations that belong to China not the Chinese people. US corporations would be just as interested in buying Quebec agricultural land as the Chinese. 

She specified Chinese and specified that they are predators currently present in Quebec checking out the land for purchase. 

Either that is a fact or not. 

I say it is not because it makes no sense. There would be no point in shopping around for land before trying to have the law changed.

Chinese land speculators is not one of the challenges facing Quebec. It was a stupid comment. QS reps need to be taught to stay on message; to address the issues QS has identified as a threat or harmful to the average Quebecer. 

Unionist

Marchers demand Québec solidaire apologize for MNA's "racist" comments

Quote:
About 150 members of Montreal’s Chinese community and allies marched through the streets of downtown Montreal demanding an official apology from the leadership of Québec solidaire for what they consider racist comments by one of the party’s elected members of National Assembly.

[...]

The Gazette requested a comment from the leadership of Québec solidaire. In an e-mailed response Sunday afternoon, the party’s communications coordinator Elise Tanguay wrote: “We consider that we have already responded to the concerns of activists and organizations through the statement of Émilise Lessard-Therrien, who invited them to a meeting to discuss it. Québec solidaire fully supports Ms. Lessard-Therrien’s approach. We will not comment further.”

Well, this QS reply is as tone-deaf as can be. I'll let them know, and let you know what I hear back.

swallow swallow's picture

What a shitty response. 

Pondering

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/marchers-demand-quebec-solid...

“I don’t represent Québec solidaire, but I am a member. I’ve had a lump in my throat for weeks now. When we make a mistake, even when it was unintended, we have to apologize. We have to recognize that we understand what the error was and we have to commit to doing better,” Alexander said.

That's what I am talking about. I would expect QS and QS supporters to recognize racism not deny it. I have no problem accepting that Lessard-Therrien didn't realize her comments were racist but for the party leadership to deny it calls into question their ability to recognize racism or their integrity. One or the other. That is terrible for a social justice party. This is a defining moment. They need to admit and apologize. 

voice of the damned

Just for clarification, in post #118, is it not stated that Lessard-Therrien did apologize? If that is true, what is the continuing issue here?

I don't have a dog in this fight: apart from the hypothetical possibility that I might consider voting QS if I lived in Quebec, I'm pretty much indifferent to them either way. I'm just not sure I understand what the controversy is about, at this point.

 

Pondering

voice of the damned wrote:

Just for clarification, in post #118, is it not stated that Lessard-Therrien did apologize? If that is true, what is the continuing issue here?

I don't have a dog in this fight: apart from the hypothetical possibility that I might consider voting QS if I lived in Quebec, I'm pretty much indifferent to them either way. I'm just not sure I understand what the controversy is about, at this point.

The leaders of QS initially defended her saying she hadn't said anything objectionable.  They have not retracted or apologized. In my eyes their defence of her was worse than what she said. 

voice of the damned

Pondering wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:

Just for clarification, in post #118, is it not stated that Lessard-Therrien did apologize? If that is true, what is the continuing issue here?

I don't have a dog in this fight: apart from the hypothetical possibility that I might consider voting QS if I lived in Quebec, I'm pretty much indifferent to them either way. I'm just not sure I understand what the controversy is about, at this point.

The leaders of QS initially defended her saying she hadn't said anything objectionable.  They have not retracted or apologized. In my eyes their defence of her was worse than what she said. 

So, if I've got this straight...

She said something.

People took exception to what she said.

The spokespersons(to go by their prefered title) defended her comments.

She later apologized for the comments.

The spokespeople did not apologize for their defense of her.

Okay, I can see how that could be awkward.

But, reading over the thread, it seems that both Lessard-Therrien and the spokespeople had previously been in agreement that it was just a bad choice of words. So I'm wondering why they just couldn't have continued to have that as their shared defense?

Or is it the case that only the spokespeople had argued that it was a bad choice of words, whereas Lessard-Therrien skipped that stage of the defense and went straight for the apology?

swallow swallow's picture

Nobody organized a march for Diaby, victim of a clear-cut case of racism, but the usual anti-racism crowd, including documentary filmmaker and activist Will Prosper, Fédération des femmes du Québec head Gabrielle Bouchard and Alex Tyrell of the Green Party let it be known they would be marching to denounce a Québec solidaire MNA.

This is the world upside down.

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/lise-ravary-not-everythin...

lagatta4

I actually agree with Ravary, though remember that she is very far from progressive, and had to end her screed with a red-scare era cliché. Lise, eco-socialists do NOT want Stalin. Not only because of the Gulags and disappeared, but also because of a far from environmentally-friendly view of development. Badly needed in poor and backward Russia and the rest of the USSR, but not very sensitively implemented to put it mildly.

Our MNA expressed herself badly, but am I too defensive to suspect "ethnic élites" tied to the Liberal party? Racism and bigotry are sadly very real, but so is a kind of politics based on ethnic élites "selling" their communities, usually to the Libs.

By the way, Will Prosper was also a candidate for QS, in the riding that includes Montréal-Nord.

pietro_bcc

This time I don't think its the Liberals I mean Prosper and Chiu are from QS and Alex Tyrell spends most of his time attacking people on the left because he thinks it will increase the votershare of his party that is also on the left. One story you may not have heard is that the reason the NPDQ didn't sign on to the MMP pledge is not because they didn't want to, every party that signed was fine with the NDP also signing onto the pledge except for one party (that party said they would refuse to sign the pledge if the NDP was allowed to sign it.) Though Fortin never spelled it out that party from all accounts was the Green party, that's the kind of person Alex Tyrell is, a petulant child.

So yeah, it wasn't the Liberals. It was 2 QS former candidates who I have no doubt are sincere about what they believe to be a racist statement and one child who's electoral strategy is attacking others on the left.

Also I read that Ravery opinion piece and while I agree with the clip that was posted, the wider article had a tone of to hell with the left, I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.

Unionist

lagatta4 wrote:

I actually agree with Ravary, though remember that she is very far from progressive, and had to end her screed with a red-scare era cliché.

I appreciate your point. Personally, I will never agree with Lise Ravary on anything - even if she appears to be taking a correct stand. I'll check 1,000 times to see how I misread her. She is a self-promoting pro-Zionist shameless liar. Among other adjectives which would be appropriate.

Pondering

voice of the damned wrote:

Pondering wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:

Just for clarification, in post #118, is it not stated that Lessard-Therrien did apologize? If that is true, what is the continuing issue here?

I don't have a dog in this fight: apart from the hypothetical possibility that I might consider voting QS if I lived in Quebec, I'm pretty much indifferent to them either way. I'm just not sure I understand what the controversy is about, at this point.

The leaders of QS initially defended her saying she hadn't said anything objectionable.  They have not retracted or apologized. In my eyes their defence of her was worse than what she said. 

So, if I've got this straight...

She said something.

People took exception to what she said.

The spokespersons(to go by their prefered title) defended her comments.

She later apologized for the comments.

The spokespeople did not apologize for their defense of her.

Okay, I can see how that could be awkward.

But, reading over the thread, it seems that both Lessard-Therrien and the spokespeople had previously been in agreement that it was just a bad choice of words. So I'm wondering why they just couldn't have continued to have that as their shared defense?

Or is it the case that only the spokespeople had argued that it was a bad choice of words, whereas Lessard-Therrien skipped that stage of the defense and went straight for the apology?

No, I think it took her three days to apologize.

She said there are Chinese speculators specifically checking out Témiscamingue in the present tense.  It was totally made up. It isn't true. If there are Chinese people in Témiscamingue I would bet my bottom dollar that they are not land speculators. 

When you single out a minority as a threat it feeds racism. People get hurt, even killed. 

QS treating the complaint as trivial and their intial denials calls into question their ability to recognize racism. QS owes the Chinese community an apology. It is not an unreasonable demand. 

If a Liberal or Conservative had said the same thing we would be all over it claiming it revealed racism in the party.

I am not saying this to condemn the party. I'm saying it for the opposite reason. This attitude will limit QS's potential. It isn't just about racism. It's about integrity. 

Pondering

Was it racism when Québec solidaire MNA for Rouyn-Noranda-Témiscamingue Émilise Lessard-Therrien and prefect Claire Bolduc described as “predatory” the methods of Chinese promoters — Chinese as in citizens of China, not Quebecers of Chinese ancestry — eager to buy agricultural land in her beautiful neck of the woods ? (If you’ve never visited the Témiscamingue region, do yourself a favour and go next summer. It is lovely.)

But what about all those Chinese speculators lurking in the woods checking out the farmland? The fact that elsewhere in the world chinese corporations are trying to buy up farmland does not mean chinese people who happen to go to Témiscamingue are land speculators. 

She did not claim there were Chinese trying to buy up land in other countries or other places within Canada. She said they are in Témiscamingue right now checking out the land even though there is a law against them buying it. I want to know which chinese people she is referring to in Témiscamingue. Which ones in particular should I be wary of? If a Chinese person tries to buy land how will we know which ones are the predators? 

It's disturbing to me that so many people are trying to deny the racism inherrent in her remarks about Chinese people in Témiscamingue. She was very specific that they are in her riding right now. She was not speaking generally. 

Unionist

Pondering wrote:

It's disturbing to me that so many people are trying to deny the racism inherrent in her remarks about Chinese people in Témiscamingue. She was very specific that they are in her riding right now. She was not speaking generally. 

Her remarks were not racist with respect to Chinese people. They were incautious, ill-advised, and QS should make a very clear statement to that effect, as should she. But your attempts to paint her as racist are incomprehensible to me.

Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Pondering wrote:

It's disturbing to me that so many people are trying to deny the racism inherrent in her remarks about Chinese people in Témiscamingue. She was very specific that they are in her riding right now. She was not speaking generally. 

Her remarks were not racist with respect to Chinese people. They were incautious, ill-advised, and QS should make a very clear statement to that effect, as should she. But your attempts to paint her as racist are incomprehensible to me.

I didn't say she is racist. I said her words were racist. Her words were not just incautious or ill-advised. Unless you can produce some Chinese speculators in Témiscamingue she was lying. 

She was very specific. She senses these Chinese speculators in Témiscamingue, not just the world in general, checking out the farm land. How exactly is she sensing them? Does she imagine them hidden amongst the tourists?

Chinese  from China are in the States and elsewhere buying agricultural land because they will need it to feed their people. Many countries have to buy food because they can't produce enough for themselves. It makes sense to me that they would try to buy agricultural land throughout the world to grow food on. There is nothing nefarious about that. It isn't predatory. 

We prefer to sell them the food instead so that we will reap the profits. That is an economic not moral choice. We are perfectly happy to let them invest in the oil sands, just not food. 

Assuming there are Chinese from China scoping out Témiscamingue farmland just in case the federal law is changed and they are allowed to buy land how would that be predatory? 

Predatory means "seeking to exploit or oppress others". I don't see why buying farmland to grow food to feed one's people is predatory. She said if they get land then Quebecers will never get to eat food from it. That's a pretty inflamatory statement. I'm pretty sure if they buy an apple orchard in Quebec (which they can't) they will sell apples to Quebecers. 

She did the right thing by apologizing. I would hope that people within QS and supporters of QS would explain to her why her words were racist instead of denying it. Sensing Chinese investors in Témiscamingue is racist. Maybe she meant she suspects they are there but that isn't much better. I think corporations from all countries are in general scoping out opportunities in every industry including agriculture but I doubt they are wasting time and money scoping out farmland where it is against the law for them to buy it. There is no reason for them to be in Témiscamingue. 

Politicians usually address issues currently facing their community. There are no predatory Chinese investors in Témiscamingue. I can't prove that because it's a negative but I think the onus is on QS to produce at least a hint of one. 

She invented a Chinese predator. It doesn't matter if she meant predators from China not Quebec Chinese people. There is no reason to look at any person of Chinese heritage in Quebec, foreign investor or not, as a predator. Would it be okay if she said she senses the Italian mafia is in Témiscamingue?

Are we going to argue that Quebec blackface isn't racist now? 

Pondering

It's not that easy to get 150 people out to protest in the cold of winter. 

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/marchers-demand-quebec-solid...

About 150 members of Montreal’s Chinese community and allies marched through the streets of downtown Montreal Sunday demanding an official apology from the leadership of Québec solidaire for what they consider racist comments by one of the party’s elected members of National Assembly.

Honestly ask yourselves if you would be defending her statements if she were a Liberal or Conservative. Blind defence does no favor to the party. It underminds it's credibility. A heartfelt apology that reflects understanding gains admiration. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

This reminds me of cross burnings on the lawns of Prince George. Like Hedy Fry she seems to have presented as fact things that were not facts to prove a point, in her case about speculation. Fry was trying to prove a point about racism and in fact did a disservice to anti-racist activists in the province. 

However although this MNA does not appear to be a conscious racist her attitude highlights the deep, deep strain of anti-Asian sentiment that permeates Canada and has since its inception as a white British  colony.

Pages