The Legault government

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kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

Leftists who have fully supported Bill 101 shouldn't have a problem with Bill 21 either. It is to preserve the culture of Quebec. Language is the primary tool protecting that culture but it isn't the only one. 

Having English words visible in Quebec is a threat to the culture. Of course non-Catholic religious symbols are a problem. They are a visible manifestation of a non-Quebec culture. They threaten the cultural face of Quebec. 

I take it this racist drivel is meant as sarcasm.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Leftists who have fully supported Bill 101 shouldn't have a problem with Bill 21 either. It is to preserve the culture of Quebec. Language is the primary tool protecting that culture but it isn't the only one. 

Having English words visible in Quebec is a threat to the culture. Of course non-Catholic religious symbols are a problem. They are a visible manifestation of a non-Quebec culture. They threaten the cultural face of Quebec. 

I take it this racist drivel is meant as sarcasm.

I'm saying when you justify discrimination for one group of people don't be surprised when the same reasoning is applied to another group. Quebec is full of these double standards justified on the basis of protecting French Quebec culture and language. When the separatist movement was in its heyday I remember the outrage at the very idea that indigenous people in the north might decide to stick with Canada as their treaties or that Montreal had a large enough population to split up. The borders of Quebec were declared indivisible even though they were created during confederation.

It has always been clear in Quebec that self-determination was intended for French Quebeckers not indians or the English. Even so the Canadian left has always leapt to the defence of separatists.

I must make note here that I am not referring to QS who stands for immigrant rights and personal freedoms if not in defence of the dreaded danger of English appearing on signs.

The latest is they want to stop French Quebecers from going to English colleges as if barring and English lessons before 3rd grade wasn't enough. Ironically English Quebecers have more rights in education. Parts of Bill 21 were struck down solely for the English School Board and English Quebecers have the legal right to go to any college.

I'm sure you've seen how French run institutions treat indigenous people. Indigenous people also went to the English schools because the French didn't want them. Canadian leftists should take a closer look at what they support. 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/quebecs-special-relationship-wit...

 According to Réjean Morissette, a former civil servant who took part in the negotiations of the Quebec government with the James Bay Cree and worked for 10 years as a liaison officer between the government and the native reserves, Quebec's aboriginal people should be seen as "co-founders" rather than victims. In several publications, he debunks the "myth" that Indians were dispossessed of their land.

Apart from about a thousand Mohawks in the lower St. Lawrence Valley, he argues, "none of the 11 nations now recognized by the Quebec government had a significant, continued and organized presence" on Quebec's territory at the time of the first French explorers, in the mid-16th and the early 17th centuries.

The French of Quebec so value their language that they must be forced to speak it at all times and be prevented from learning the dreaded English unless they can pay for private schools. Rich French kids must learn English.

There were few "indians" around when the French founded Quebec therefore Quebec was originally French not indigenous until they were betrayed by France and conquered by the English. 

They mostly still don't get the problem with black face as they claim it was never a tradition in Quebec and nothing outside Quebec should disturb French culture which rejects the parts of it's history it doesn't like. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/blackface-montreal-1.3495840

"In the 19th century, middle-class francophones went to English-language theatre," said Thompson, "because there was very little happening in French."

So no it wasn't part of French culture but French people voluntarily chose to go to those shows. Note that English people did not prevent French people from having French shows. There has always been very little English in Quebec outside of Montreal and French politicians have always run Quebec at every level with some possible small community exceptions. 

Just recently they have decided to let anyone living in Quebec take free French courses so don't tell me this was all about protecting language. It was always about power and money. Where the word "corporations" should have been "the English" was substituted.

Imagine if Legault were Prime Minister of Quebec not just a premier. Nationalism, Separatism, Sovereignty, whatever you want to call it is bigotry and xenophobia if not outright white supremacy in another guise. 

At least the rest of Canada doesn't claim indigenous people weren't really around in significant numbers or weren't organized enough to be recognized as having an official enough presence. If they aren't organized, it isn't their land, nevermind that land ownership isn't an indigenous thing at least not before the French decided ownership is a thing and they were the owners because they were properly organized.

Canada is all that stands between minority rights and the Quebec government.  But yay nationalism right?

kropotkin1951

Pondering wrote:

At least the rest of Canada doesn't claim indigenous people weren't really around in significant numbers.

Well actually that is not the case. BC entered Confederation using that line, long before racists in Quebec discovered it utility.

BC entered confederation in 1871 and Trutch as lieutenant-governor defended his policies. Although the federal government assumed responsibility for Indians and Indian reserves, the province controlled all other land and acted to limit the size and location of future reserves. Trutch was pivotal to the dilemma the region is in now. He was the first official to claim that FN never owned the land and he created the myth that Indians were bribed to give up their claims to the land, but not the land itself. Although Douglas had earlier referred to the region as "wild and unoccupied" when proclaiming at Ft Langley the creation of the government of BC in 1858, it was Trutch’s version of terra nullius led to the disappearance of Indian title from the larger debate, although not from the minds of the FN. Further, Trutch amended the pre-emption ordinance to exclude Indians and resurveyed every reserve in order to reduce them in the "public interest." In effect, Trutch insured that BC policy at the time of the province’s entry into Confederation was not in conformity with the Proclamation of 1763.

https://www.ubcic.bc.ca/a_short_commentary_on_land_claims_in_bc

 

 

pietro_bcc

The judgement on Bill 21 is essentially what I expected. I'm against Bill 21, but the law in regards to the notwithstanding clause is clear. The government can pass laws that discriminate against religious minorities and women, it is also clear that the government cannot violate the right of a minority linguistic community to control and manage their own education system.

I'm glad that the English schoolboards are still allowed to hire religious minorities and I hope they take out ads in newspapers and TV inviting teaches who wear religious symbols to apply, just to rub the government's face in it.

Also loving the arguments that Quebec MNAs are having regarding this judgement creating 2 classes of Quebecois with different rights... Where the hell have they been for the past 45 years? Anglophones have the right to send their children any school they choose, francophones and allophones do not. Look at that 2 classes of citizen with different rights!

Pondering

Thanks for filling me in Kropotkin. I thought it was so ridiculous surely nobody else would present such an obvious rejection of historical fact. 

Pietro, it isn't minority education in general that has an exception. It is an exclusive right of the English School Board. We had Protestant and Catholic school boards. Protestant schools were English and absorbed all the immigrants and indigenous students bussed in from reserves. Catholic schools were French and the church was strongly involved.

Quebec wanted immigrants to go to French schools and wanted to reduce the church's influence. This was when offical secularism became a thing. The schools would no longer be Catholic and Protestant. They would be French and English, and immigrants would be required to go to the French schools. The problem was that the Protestant school system had legal rights.

The Canadian constitution protects the language rights of English-speaking communities and individuals in Quebec; however, since 1867, the Quebec provincial government has had full jurisdiction over schools, with only Section 93 of the British North America Act of 1867 (Constitution Act, 1867) guaranteeing Protestant confessional boards the right to administer most English schools.

When Quebec wanted to dismantle the religious school boards in favor of creating linquistic ones the English community made sure there was no loss of rights.  

The bonjour/hi controversy is a perfect example of the disconnect between Montreal and the rest of the province. French and English get along fine in Montreal. Bonjour/Hi is for the benefit of tourists. French people often insist on speaking English because they want the practice. I'm not saying there isn't any racism but for the most part minority communities are integrated and accepted. Downtown Montreal in particular would be really weird without the hodge podge of cultures vying for space particularly in the culinary industry. It isn't English people that started the Bonjour/Hi. 

The Hérouxville debacle was born out of genuine ignorance. Unilingual French people are limited in the news they recieve. Hérouxville has no immigrant population. They are exposed to French journalists who publish dire warnings about about what is going on in Montreal. They are mostly unilingual French so have no exposure to opposing viewpoints. They are at the mercy of the French ruling class.

The political motivation has nothing at all to do with racism or religious symbols. It was simply a clever way to put federal politicians in a bind. It singlehandedly revived the Bloc. 

Ultimately it will get worse. Demographics predict that white people will be the largest minority in North America. No doubt they will still hold all the power positions but closer to the ground that is not the case. Every successful immigrant will be a slap in the face to an unsuccessful American that needs a target or has been brainwashed. 

The same dynamic is playing out in Quebec. The population that carries the history of Quebec will eventually be a minority. Populations are increasingly concentrated in urban centres. French immigrants to Quebec carry no resentment against having been conquered. They are not afraid of losing the language and culture of Quebec. It will happen over decades but it is inevidable. Slowly but surely people who don't care about old grudges will begin to dominate Quebec. They will find the language laws utterly bizarre which they are. It's one thing to legislate in favor of a language, entirely different to outlaw its use. It is getting from here to there that will be difficult. 

jerrym

Quote:
 Pondering wrote

The political motivation has nothing at all to do with racism or religious symbols. It was simply a clever way to put federal politicians in a bind. It singlehandedly revived the Bloc.  

Underlying all of this is the fear of the other, regardless of what the law says. That fear drives prejudice against those with religious and/or racial/ethnic differences, that many politicians are all too willing to take advantage of. If you discriminate based on religion and/or race, you are what you actions are, and you don't get an exemption because it was a good career or political move. Every political group that has engaged is such actions has included those who saw it as a way of getting ahead with a don't give a damn about what happens to the target group. 

Pondering

jerrym wrote:

Quote:
 Pondering wrote

The political motivation has nothing at all to do with racism or religious symbols. It was simply a clever way to put federal politicians in a bind. It singlehandedly revived the Bloc.  

Underlying all of this is the fear of the other, regardless of what the law says. That fear drives prejudice against those with religious and/or racial/ethnic differences, that many politicians are all too willing to take advantage of. If you discriminate based on religion and/or race, you are what you actions are, and you don't get an exemption because it was a good career or political move. Every political group that has engaged is such actions has included those who saw it as a way of getting ahead with a don't give a damn about what happens to the target group. 

Yes, and the NDP has no scruples about jumping on the bandwagon.  I am reminded of the poem, "first they came for".  Until the past couple of weeks I was understanding and philosophical about Bill 101. I wore the hair shirt of having been raised 100% in English by French parents. No more. Bill 101 is just as wrong as Bill 21. In both cases the justification is to protect Quebec language and culture neither of which was under attack. 

It's all stick, no carrot, because the stated concern was just an excuse. French shows dedicated to introducing Quebec culture to newcomers should be on TV 24/7 along with entertainment programs intended for language learners with limited vocabularies. All popular French programs should be subsidized to provide modified programming. I can't think of their names aside from Bon cop, bad cop but there have been multiple French shows that play on the English/French relationship. Wait, there was also "Excuse my French". There was a show in which an English person refers to a "hot dog" as a "chien chaud" causing amusment because we call it a "hot dog". In one movie an Indian couple says they came north because they were told that was were all the indians lived. 

French Quebecers are complex and inaccurately represented by media and politicians. For example, prior to Bill 101 in a poll the vast majority didn't think anyone should lose their job over the wearing of a hijab or other symbol. I am sure that it is in response to that poll that Legault grandfathered in protection for those already employed. 

That is, on an individual level, the Quebec people care about people and they want their children to learn English from a young age just like the children of the upper class French. The issue was never language and culture it was power, or more specifically the money that comes with power because the French of Quebec have always been in power controlling politics, religion, news, and entertainment. 

There was only one thing they didn't control. National and multi-national corporations in Montreal. They also feared English because English granted French people access to non-Quebec controlled media. 

Hence my disgust for all the deference to Quebec nationalism and the sovereignty movement which would remove the meagre protection of Canadian law and a Canadian passport. We would be left with nothing but tin-pot dictators arguing that the land was empty until the arrival of the French and that newcomers must be assimilated. 

jerrym

Pondering wrote:

jerrym wrote:

Quote:
 Pondering wrote

The political motivation has nothing at all to do with racism or religious symbols. It was simply a clever way to put federal politicians in a bind. It singlehandedly revived the Bloc.  

Underlying all of this is the fear of the other, regardless of what the law says. That fear drives prejudice against those with religious and/or racial/ethnic differences, that many politicians are all too willing to take advantage of. If you discriminate based on religion and/or race, you are what you actions are, and you don't get an exemption because it was a good career or political move. Every political group that has engaged is such actions has included those who saw it as a way of getting ahead with a don't give a damn about what happens to the target group. 

Yes, and the NDP has no scruples about jumping on the bandwagon. 

It is interesting that I said " Every political group" and you reply with the NDP, as if the Liberals, who you always seem to jump on the bandwagon for just before the election, after favouring the Greens or someone else in between the elections time after time. When I said everyone, I meant everyone.

I grew up in a town in Eastern Ontario where the Orange Order ruled; where my father told me about them burning a cross on the front lawn of the first French Canadian to move into the town in the 1930s; where my father watched in hiding in the bushes an outdoor meeting of the local Ku Klux Klan, which was not unusual in 1930s Canada;  where there were no Blacks; where, as an Irish Catholic, it was not unusual to be attacked on the way to school by other kids who said "There's a Catholic. Let's get him" in a town that was 80% Protestant; that, when given money by the federal government in the 1970s to develop a pamphlet to attract businesses to the region included the statement "The region is 80% hard-working, Anglo-Saxon stock" as a reason for locating there; who now has a Filipino wife and two biracial sons, one of whom, although bright, is on the autistic spectrum. That's why I said and meant "everyone".

Pondering

jerrym wrote:

Pondering wrote:

jerrym wrote:

Quote:
 Pondering wrote

The political motivation has nothing at all to do with racism or religious symbols. It was simply a clever way to put federal politicians in a bind. It singlehandedly revived the Bloc.  

Underlying all of this is the fear of the other, regardless of what the law says. That fear drives prejudice against those with religious and/or racial/ethnic differences, that many politicians are all too willing to take advantage of. If you discriminate based on religion and/or race, you are what you actions are, and you don't get an exemption because it was a good career or political move. Every political group that has engaged is such actions has included those who saw it as a way of getting ahead with a don't give a damn about what happens to the target group. 

Yes, and the NDP has no scruples about jumping on the bandwagon. 

It is interesting that I said " Every political group" and you reply with the NDP, as if the Liberals, who you always seem to jump on the bandwagon for just before the election, after favouring the Greens or someone else in between the elections time after time. When I said everyone, I meant everyone.

I grew up in a town in Eastern Ontario where the Orange Order ruled; where my father told me about them burning a cross on the front lawn of the first French Canadian to move into the town in the 1930s; where my father watched in hiding in the bushes an outdoor meeting of the local Ku Klux Klan, which was not unusual in 1930s Canada;  where there were no Blacks; where, as an Irish Catholic, it was not unusual to be attacked on the way to school by other kids who said "There's a Catholic. Let's get him" in a town that was 80% Protestant; that, when given money by the federal government in the 1970s to develop a pamphlet to attract businesses to the region included the statement "The region is 80% hard-working, Anglo-Saxon stock" as a reason for locating there; who now has a Filipino wife and two biracial sons, one of whom, although bright, is on the autistic spectrum. That's why I said and meant "everyone".

I jumped on the NDP because I don't expect better of the Liberals. I think the consensus is that the Liberals, Greens and Conservatives are all neo-liberal at heart even when they pass "progressive" legislation.

I don't support the Greens at all. I support Lascaris. I don't want progressives to vote Green I want them to join the Green party and do a hostile takeover by supporting Lascaris and the many who are with him. 

Should I not expect better of the NDP and progressives in general than I do from Liberals and Conservatives?

I have been more than clear that the Liberals are horrible. They are assholes and liars. Their public face is all PR no substance. They serve themselves and their corporate masters alone. They are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people for priorizing the economy over lives. It's enough to make me nauseous. 

None of that changes the fact that they are set to win the next election and likely the one after that as well be it majorities or minorities. Federal Conservatives are in big trouble. Various pockets in Canada are hardline Conservative but they alone cannot deliver on a national level. They have a really big solid base but no where to grow without giving up part of their base. If they give up part of their base they won't have enough support to get over the top federally. They are in a weird lose/lose situation even though they have the largest most enthusiastic base. 

I know not everyone agrees but I am personally convinced the Conservatives, in their current incarnation, cannot win federally. They would have to go back to being the PCs and the membership is strongly opposed to it. It is made up of extremists of various sorts be they free market or social. They will be defeated through immigration and demographics. 

I am exasperated. Federally, the NDP, are turning into Liberal lite or rather they are already there. Lascaris lost the Green leadership by only 2000 votes. Those two thousand votes would have given us a major political federal political party on the far left. I voted for him but had I known sooner I am fairly confident I could have generated many more votes through my daughter. It is quite possible the chain would have even amounted to 2K votes or more. I am so disappointed I wasn't paying closer attention. 

If I am right, and the Conservatives are all but out of the running, the NDP will become the natural alternative to the Liberals which would be great news if they were not fast becoming the Liberals in policy if not membership.

kropotkin1951

jerrym wrote:

I grew up in a town in Eastern Ontario where the Orange Order ruled; where my father told me about them burning a cross on the front lawn of the first French Canadian to move into the town in the 1930s; where my father watched in hiding in the bushes an outdoor meeting of the local Ku Klux Klan, which was not unusual in 1930s Canada;  where there were no Blacks; where, as an Irish Catholic, it was not unusual to be attacked on the way to school by other kids who said "There's a Catholic. Let's get him" in a town that was 80% Protestant; that, when given money by the federal government in the 1970s to develop a pamphlet to attract businesses to the region included the statement "The region is 80% hard-working, Anglo-Saxon stock" as a reason for locating there; who now has a Filipino wife and two biracial sons, one of whom, although bright, is on the autistic spectrum. That's why I said and meant "everyone".

I grew up in Sudbury where almost half of the population were Francophone. They mostly lived "on the wrong side of the tracks" in what was called the Flour Mill section of town (for obvious reasons). Being French in the 1950's in Sudbury was to be a second class citizen. It was a culture where natives were discriminated against by law and tradition but "frogs" and DP's also got the WASP disdain shoved in their faces.. I was a uni-lingual english kid with a mother whose first language was french. I spent most summers in Shediac where I was the only cousin that did not speak two languages. Mémère tried hard but it was clear she was always deeply troubled that I could not speak french. I went to a Catholic school in Sudbury that had both a French and an English section. Instead of this allowing us anglos to learn some french it was a further institutional response that centered on division and the promotion of animosity. The school was designed so the entrances were as far from each other as possible. The building looked like one on the outside but inside there was only one narrow connecting hallway, for staff only. The playgrounds were on opposite sides of the building and we were not allowed to go into each others playground. It was the ethnic segregation of french speaking people many of whom were Quebec immigrants to Ontario. On the English side of the school we had every kind of post war European immigrant many whose parents barely spoke English. I am not sure whether a non-Quebecois catholic immigrant was allowed to send their kids to the french school or whether it was just that none would want their kids to be schooled in anything but the dominant language in their new home.

Canada is a racist country anad always has been. It has gotten less overtly racist in my lifetime so I am hopeful. In the large cities across Canada we are becoming increasingly multi-racial. I have many nieces and nephews who are mixed race and when I lived in the coop in Burnaby I was in a racial minority.

In Canada we need to come to grips with how to expand our official languages to include at least Mandarin. I hope that the Vancouver model of mixed ethnicity neighbourhoods and thus public schools will lead to a society with an ever increasing percentage of the population being of mixed race heritage.

In the city of Vancouver and four adjacent municipalities (Surrey, Burnaby, Richmond, and Coquitlam), there is no visible majority. Hence, the term visible minority is used here in contrast to the overall Canadian population which remains predominantly of European descent. In Metro Vancouver, at the 2016 census, 48.9% of the population were members of non-European ethnic groups and 48.6% were members of European ethnic groups. 2.5% of the population identified as First Nations.

Greater Vancouver has more interracial couples than Canada's two largest cities, Toronto and Montreal. In 2011, 9.6% of married and common-law couples in Greater Vancouver are interracial; double the Canadian average of 4.6%,[65] and higher than in the Toronto CMA (8.2%) and the Greater Montreal (5.2%). Vancouver has less residential segregation of its ethnic minorities compared to Canadian cities like Montreal.[66]

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Kropotkin, your Sudbury upbringing brought back lots of memories for me. I was in Ottawa and lived my childhood between the east end and west end of Ottawa. Growing up in the west end, kids were vicioius to the few Francophone students around and there was no alternative but English schools (both Catholic and pulic) in that end of town. In my primary school, we could not hold on to a French teacher for more than a term because the kids terrorized them till they asked for a transfer. My last French teacher there in Grades 5-6 lasted because he was big and strong and did not put up with the shit. I will never forget Mr. Bongo (yes his real name) who was an African immigrant.

When I moved back to the east end of Ottawa, I was in the Franco-Ontarian neighbourhood of Vanier. There was still lots of segregation but the French kids had power and you didn't mess with them. It still was so strange that the kids in my English Catholic school had Francophone names but totally Anglocized their pronunciation. It seems that those successful or ambitious Francophone families in Vanier didn't want their kids tainted with French names or culture. None of them learned French and they definitely did not follow any Francophone cultural traditions.

pietro_bcc

After seeing the Quebec Liberal's 27 point plan on language I'm convinced that the Equality Party will make a return to Quebec Provincial politics. Before all anglos knew that the Liberals didn't give a shit about them, but they had the decency to maintain the illusion, now they're openly spitting in our face.

Their plan includes applying Bill 101 francization requirements to small businesses.

Freezing the number of spaces in English CEGEPs.

And my favorite and the one anglophones will be most against. The Quebec Liberal's plan to institute "language SWAT teams". I don't even know what this means. My entire life some francophones have gotten upset at me calling the OQLF the Language Police. But the term "language SWAT teams" didn't come from Anglophones, it came from Anglade. At the rate we're going I expect we'll have language hellfire missiles in 15 years, then maybe language nuclear weapons.

pietro_bcc

The electoral reform referendum is officially cancelled, who could've seen them not keeping this promise coming?

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