Baiting - Not a Thread for Dumping on Other Babblers

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MegB
Baiting - Not a Thread for Dumping on Other Babblers

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MegB

It's not about what you do or do not believe, it's about intent.  If your purpose here is to invite discourse and encourage debate, that's welcomed and applauded.  If your purpose is to get people riled up under the guise of inviting discourse and debate, then you don't belong here. 

Intentional button-pushing with the goal of encouraging people to behave in a way that undermines their POV isn't provocative.  It's a cowardly and passive-aggressive means of silencing your opposition.  You don't have to like or agree with what others say, and disagreement and debate are healthy and encouraged, but if through a long pattern of behaviour you reveal that your primary purpose is to push people's buttons, then you aren't welcome.

Caissa

One person's baiting is another's debating. Let Babblers work it out on their own while there are still Babblers left.

milo204

i think rebecca's point is valid, but caissa has a point too, it's really an impossible thing trying to define exactly what is or isn't "baiting" (even though common sense is a pretty good guide) and i think the responsibility is on babblers to either respond appropriately or ignore it.

it's the internet and you have to expect there are going to be people who like to stir up trouble and be a pain in the ass and there's really not much you can do to prevent it other than not giving them the satisfaction of responding with emotion.   

 

6079_Smith_W

I just last night wrote a PM to someone who I feel has crossed the line repeatedly with me, but who I think still should be heard. 

On the other hand, being a moderator in a forum where respect for authority is practically heresy  is no easy feat. I don't envy you  your job, and I greatly admire the tightrope skills you need to do it.

 

Slumberjack

Well, the point of that massacre thread, as we later discovered deep into the thread itself, was to regale us about what those nasty sub-humans are up to now.  It provokes reaction as was intended, and is permitted to stand bereft of any context, with predictable and planned results.  Nice work btw, they fell for it.

Mr.Tea

Slumberjack wrote:

Well, the point of that massacre thread, as we later discovered deep into the thread itself, was to regale us about what those nasty sub-humans are up to now. 

That's a lie and it's ludicrous and shows your disingenuousness.

The thread was started (by me) as a breaking news story that was still developing when it was being psoted and discussed. Nobody, at that point, had any idea who the shooter was. Speculation initially was that it was neo-Nazis kicked out of the army.

And, yes, I reserve the right to refer to someone who grabs a little girl by the hair and shoots her in the face at point blank range as "sub-human". If you see this monster as anything other, I think that reveals a great deal about you.

Dostoyevsky

Slumberjack wrote:

Well, the point of that massacre thread, as we later discovered deep into the thread itself, was to regale us about what those nasty sub-humans are up to now.  It provokes reaction as was intended, and is permitted to stand bereft of any context, with predictable and planned results.  Nice work btw, they fell for it.

 

notice how he plurised sub -human when Mr Tea was clearly talking about one individual. This is a blatant lie and smear.

 

disgusting

Unionist

So Rebecca, as you can plainly see, it doesn't take much to "offend" or "bait" certain individuals here. They are ready to swoop and scream about being "offended". Accusing a babbler of "blatant lie and smear". And worst of all - these are defenders of Israel and its lawlessness. We [b]must not[/b] allow them to influence what is posted here - and still less, who is allowed to post here.

Otherwise, when they come for us, who will be left to say "wait".

That's just one view from one Jew.

ETA: Oh wait a sec - I just realized, Slumberjack should be suspended for deliberately using the plural instead of the singular in his post. Right, Dostoevsky?

 

Caissa

Was there any need to resurrect this thread?

Dostoyevsky

Unionist wrote:

So Rebecca, as you can plainly see, it doesn't take much to "offend" or "bait" certain individuals here. They are ready to swoop and scream about being "offended". Accusing a babbler of "blatant lie and smear". And worst of all - these are defenders of Israel and its lawlessness. We [b]must not[/b] allow them to influence what is posted here - and still less, who is allowed to post here.

Otherwise, when they come for us, who will be left to say "wait".

That's just one view from one Jew.

ETA: Oh wait a sec - I just realized, Slumberjack should be suspended for deliberately using the plural instead of the singular in his post. Right, Dostoevsky?

 

 

what makes you think I'm a defender of Israel ??? - it's pretty clear Slumberjack was trying paint Mr Tea as an islamaphobic bigot with his statement.

  where did I say anything about banning?

6079_Smith_W

Caissa wrote:

Was there any need to resurrect this thread?

You mean the "Not a Thread for Dumping on Other Babblers" thread?

Caissa

Yes, and then to use it in exactly the opposite manner.

MegB

Unionist wrote:

So Rebecca, as you can plainly see, it doesn't take much to "offend" or "bait" certain individuals here. They are ready to swoop and scream about being "offended". Accusing a babbler of "blatant lie and smear". And worst of all - these are defenders of Israel and its lawlessness. We [b]must not[/b] allow them to influence what is posted here - and still less, who is allowed to post here.

Otherwise, when they come for us, who will be left to say "wait".

That's just one view from one Jew.

ETA: Oh wait a sec - I just realized, Slumberjack should be suspended for deliberately using the plural instead of the singular in his post. Right, Dostoevsky?

What I can plainly see is that there are no heroes or martyrs here, just people behaving badly toward each other.  If you want to continue this, do so via PM.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture

Rebecca, you were wrong to suspend NDPP [url=http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/massacre-jewish-....

Contrary to your allegation, he did not "use" the term "Zio-Nazis" in that thread. There was an exchange about the appropriateness of the term, in which another babbler brought up the term first and in fact mentioned it three times in the thread, by way of dredging up old grievances against NDPP. NDPP mentioned the term only by way of response to the baiting provocation against him. You yourself mentioned the term in the final post. NDPP is no more guilty of "using" the term in that thread than you are yourself, or than I am for mentioning it in this post.

Your intervention in that thread was extremely one-sided in that it ignored completely the repeated personal attacks by others and didn't so much as issue a "warning" to anyone else.

You ought to acknowledge your mistake and apologize to NDPP.

Fidel

Yeah I don't think we should reward thread gladios for their sword operations against us regulars.

Free NDPP!

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i read the thread twice and found that ndpp was being attacked/baited and responded/defended himself by describing where the term came from. he should not have been suspended for doing so. at the same time his attacker gets to walk away without mention of the vile insinuations.

Unionist

Agreed. The thread is a bit convoluted, but Spector's point is well taken.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Really? NDPP was suspended? That seems really unjust. I value the breadth of articles he posts that provide an insight into world events rarely covered, if ever, by the MSM.

And although I hate the term sub-human, I will cut Mr. Tea some slack if he also used the term with respect to Sgt. Bates who deliberately stabbed and shot 17 Afghan villagers, including NINE children.

I do hope NDPP returns soon and gets an apology.

milo204

i think the mods are trying to do their best, but to me the idea of banning/suspending people from a progressive site seems kinda wierd, unless it's a pretty extreme circumstance.  

in my observations, often bannings or suspensions are to "cool off" people when they start arguing.  i'm sure if we just let these things run their course it might be better in the long run.  after all, it's not like we're going to run out of space or it's going to prevent anyone from posting.

just seems these suspensions cause more trouble and ruin more goodwill then they are saving! 

Threads

I'm willing to acknowledge that I may have gone out of line in calling Slumberjack and NDPP anti-semitic, and for that I offer an apology.  However, I continue to assert that, in particular, the act of calling Israel "Zio-Land" and in general, the use of constructions of the form "zio [noun]" is anti-semitic.

That said...

Fidel wrote:

Yeah I don't think we should reward thread gladios for their sword operations against us regulars.

Fidel, are you seriously accusing me of being a fifth column or a sleeper agent or whatever you're thinking of because despite not being a regular (to Israel/Palestine discussions? to babble?) I think that calling Israel "Zio-Land" may be an anti-semitic statement, that calling Israel's nuclear arsenal "zio nukes" may be an anti-semitic statement, that making references to a "zio songbook" and kissing 'zio ass" may be anti-semitic statements?  Really?

Threads

Then who are the "thread gladios" (your words) who are performing the "sword operations" (again, your words) you're saying said gladios should not be rewarded for?

Fidel

Are you trying to smear me now for something I never wrote, Threads? 

If I'm not mistaken I gathered that the other thread twice removed from this one was being used as a venue for an obscure attack on NDPP?

And are you not demanding more "thread security" from mods as a result of your injuries?

Fidel

It's generally against the rules to use a thread as your personal bullhorn to level accusations against other babblers.

And I think babblers accused of wrong doing deserve a fair trial within a reasonable amount of time not six hours or several days after the fact. And I realize mods have lives outside of babble, too. I dunno. I think there has been some deliberating over this decision to suspend NDPP. He is a prolific babbler and contributes many good news articles which tends to outweigh any alleged negatives imo.

I'd suggest PM'ing mods, FLAG as offensive or whatever you feel you must. But don't bait or try dumping your troubles on us. 

Erik Redburn

laine lowe wrote:

Really? NDPP was suspended? That seems really unjust. I value the breadth of articles he posts that provide an insight into world events rarely covered, if ever, by the MSM.

And although I hate the term sub-human, I will cut Mr. Tea some slack if he also used the term with respect to Sgt. Bates who deliberately stabbed and shot 17 Afghan villagers, including NINE children.

I do hope NDPP returns soon and gets an apology.

 

Much as I respect you Laine, youre being naive here.  NDPP is no innocent victim of 'baiting' -red or otherwise.   Far as we know he's not even a socialist -as if THAT should give anyone immunity.  As soon as one single thread was posted here showing Jews (or rather innocent children who just happened to be raised by Jews) to be the victims of violence for a change (here) he started in posting about how it all being the fault of Israel or "zio-nazis", as he insists on putting it, despite being repeatedly told not to. As if the deranged a-hole who did it in "revenge" was somehow justified or somehow striking a blow for oppresed Palestinians.   

It's one thing to say look how this is being abused by poliicians and rightwing media to fan the flames the anti-islamic sentiment After the fact, but really now, is the hatred of all things Zionist so strong here that we can't observe a moments silence or even sympathy for the victims first, before starting in?   And did NDPP back off even an instance or express ANY sympathy, even just to soften it or qualify it abit? No, he then started posted the first crazy conspiracy theories he saw that OC puts all the blame for EVERYTHINg on the same damn groups, like they all do.

As for all the interesting sites he links to, ya, some of them are ok, but SOME of them are also noted for running openly antiSemitic material, by well known antiSemtic loons, even after being warmed about That too. So he stopped linking to a couple neo-Nazi sites after being warned one last time (and after admitting he KNew they were but like so what...) and laid low for awhile;it didn't take long bfore he stared posting to others that were just a little bit more subtle about it, maybe reprinting some valid leftist polemics while slipping truly ugly shit in between.  You just have to dig a bit deeper to see where the smell comes from. 

Whether the radical left likes to admit it there are those operating behind your own righteous outrage, mimicing your language to regain I presume some political influence they lost when the 'new' right shifted to an uber pro-Israel position.  If it hurts the left too well so much the better.   And sorry but other than posting anti-Zionist material and trashing the NDP with radical zeal I see little evidence that 'No Different Party Pooper' is anymore a socialist or leftist than a classic paleo-con (neo-Bircher) or pseudo-libertarian anti-Semite.  There, I said it too.  Sorry again but despite the very real oppression of Palestinian Arabs and all the "clash of civilizations" oil-wars that older anti-semitism still exists, even among some -leftists.   Let's not be fundamentalist about it and act like there can only be one enemy at a time, or one single political agenda operating behind all the scenes.  The real world is more complicated than that and everyone should know it by now.

If NDPP feels he's being unfairly maligned then he can effing well explain why he keeps pushing the envelope WAY beyond righteous criticism of what the STATE of Israel and its American godfather are doing, towards downplaying or shifting blame for a senseless and self defeating homicide of innocent PEOPLE -children- who just happen to have Jewish heritage.  I'm not afraid of open debate, but it's getting very hard to find.

Fidel

Threads wrote:
Fidel, are you seriously accusing me of being a fifth column or a sleeper agent or whatever you're thinking of because despite not being a regular (to Israel/Palestine discussions? to babble?) I think that calling Israel "Zio-Land" may be an anti-semitic statement, that calling Israel's nuclear arsenal "zio nukes" may be an anti-semitic statement, that making references to a "zio songbook" and kissing 'zio ass" may be anti-semitic statements?  Really?
 

And I thought the term Zio-Nazi was tossed around as well, or am I mistaken? Because if those guys actually exist, then I think we should want nothing to do with them.

Threads

Yes, "Zio-Nazi" was tossed around as well.

Freedom 55

Erik Redburn wrote:

As soon as one single thread was posted here showing Jews (or rather innocent children who just happened to be raised by Jews) to be the victims of violence for a change (here) he started in posting about how it all being the fault of Israel or "zio-nazis", as he insists on putting it, despite being repeatedly told not to.

 

I haven't read through all of the links that he posted, but as far as I can tell, at no point did NDPP post anything about these murders "being the fault of Israel". If he did, and I've simply missed it, can you cite an example?

And as for your allegation that he started posting about "zio-nazis", I'll quote M. Spector from upthread:

 

M. Spector wrote:

Contrary to your allegation, he did not "use" the term "Zio-Nazis" in that thread. There was an exchange about the appropriateness of the term, in which another babbler brought up the term first and in fact mentioned it three times in the thread, by way of dredging up old grievances against NDPP. NDPP mentioned the term only by way of response to the baiting provocation against him.

 

Unionist

Well, what a nice thread this has turned out to be. Glad everyone read the thread topic carefully before posting. 

Erik Redburn

Freedom 55 wrote:

Erik Redburn wrote:

As soon as one single thread was posted here showing Jews (or rather innocent children who just happened to be raised by Jews) to be the victims of violence for a change (here) he started in posting about how it all being the fault of Israel or "zio-nazis", as he insists on putting it, despite being repeatedly told not to.

 

I haven't read through all of the links that he posted, but as far as I can tell, at no point did NDPP post anything about these murders "being the fault of Israel". If he did, and I've simply missed it, can you cite an example?

And as for your allegation that he started posting about "zio-nazis", I'll quote M. Spector from upthread:

 

M. Spector wrote:

Contrary to your allegation, he did not "use" the term "Zio-Nazis" in that thread. There was an exchange about the appropriateness of the term, in which another babbler brought up the term first and in fact mentioned it three times in the thread, by way of dredging up old grievances against NDPP. NDPP mentioned the term only by way of response to the baiting provocation against him.

 

 

Oh stop picking nits from a dead dog.  He still uses "zios" after being told not to use Zio-Nazis.  Big difference.  Is Zionist too hard to spell out in full?   Do you think its nice and friendly sounding or a valid anthropological term?  As for not saying its all the fault of Zionists, well you'll just have take a tiny step into basic interpretive reading.  Do any of the articles he published point ELSEWHERE for fault?  Or is the idea of a single Muslim making a poor moral choice or displaying individual human failing too much for the all-too-PC left?  Do you really BELIEVE the conspiracy theories posted in rebuttal to the temerity of a few here showing some sympathy and disgust at that senseless murder are true?   How about Israel being behind 9/11?

Erik Redburn

Unionist wrote:

Well, what a nice thread this has turned out to be. Glad everyone read the thread topic carefully before posting. 

Right, lecture us about the evils of baiting and the necessity for reasoned and calm debate Unionist.  We al know how you hate divisiveness on the left.  Meantime have you forgotten your own onesided outrage posted just above?  I wouldn't have bothered otherwise.

Back to the point, if hes so innocent why does he keep posting LINKS to THOSE sites, as others were denying earlier?  (hey its just some commentary I was just told, how can these outlets be reponsible for THAT?)  And if so would it be ok for OTHER Babblers to post a few neo-Nazi op-eds for flavour if we run enough on the evils of global warming?  Same difference.

Goodnight, I'll see what ojher rationalizations are hoisted tomorrow in the name of solidarity.

Fidel

Unionist wrote:

Well, what a nice thread this has turned out to be. Glad everyone read the thread topic carefully before posting. 

This is KAOS, we don't read thread topics around here.

The Cat: We're all mad here.

The Hatter: Why is a raven like a writing desk?

Erik Redburn

And before I get censured myself have a look at this few samples.  Its wasn't just the commentary on this Iranian State station (among others) that got me reacting earlier. 

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/232293.html

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/202658.html

Looks ok at a glance yes?   Well look abit closer and read somemore about the MiddleEast 'authorities' theyre using and what THEY really think about -ahem, Zionism in their own words.   

 Paul Sheldon Foote:  http://paulsheldonfoote.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/crypto-jews-duping-chri...

A real friend of communism too, and no doubt realy only concerned about the suffering of Muslims. 

Mark Dankof: http://mark1marti2.wordpress.com/tag/mark-dankof-for-press-tv-on-bradley...

Another resopected colleague....

 

Or another one poor misunderstood NDPP still links to after being told counter-currents is off limits on Babble -countercurrents.org:

http://www.countercurrents.org/misra031208.htm 

http://www.countercurrents.org/campbell060108.htm

 

And our old friend Gilad Atzmon again:

http://www.countercurrents.org/corseri240312.htm

Coincidence?  Give me a break.

I'll delete these links when others here take a closer look for themselves.   

Freedom 55

Erik Redburn wrote:

Freedom 55 wrote:

Erik Redburn wrote:

As soon as one single thread was posted here showing Jews (or rather innocent children who just happened to be raised by Jews) to be the victims of violence for a change (here) he started in posting about how it all being the fault of Israel or "zio-nazis", as he insists on putting it, despite being repeatedly told not to.

 

I haven't read through all of the links that he posted, but as far as I can tell, at no point did NDPP post anything about these murders "being the fault of Israel". If he did, and I've simply missed it, can you cite an example?

And as for your allegation that he started posting about "zio-nazis", I'll quote M. Spector from upthread:

 

M. Spector wrote:

Contrary to your allegation, he did not "use" the term "Zio-Nazis" in that thread. There was an exchange about the appropriateness of the term, in which another babbler brought up the term first and in fact mentioned it three times in the thread, by way of dredging up old grievances against NDPP. NDPP mentioned the term only by way of response to the baiting provocation against him.

 

 

Oh stop picking nits from a dead dog.  He still uses "zios" after being told not to use Zio-Nazis.  Big difference.

 

Oh, for fuck's sake, Erik, I'm trying to address what you said. If you're so unconcerned with facts then don't even bother responding to me. My only point here is that in the thread which led to NDPP's suspension he only referenced that term in a response to someone who had raised it as an issue. It was [i]that[/i] specific reference - not anything posted in previous threads - which [i]appears[/i] to have resulted in his suspension. I have great respect for the difficult job that the moderators are tasked with, so I'm loath to publicly question their decisions. That said, [i]if[/i] NDPP's supension was solely based on his referencing that term in response to someone who questioned his use of it, then I have to say I'm a little surprised by such a rigid enforcement of the proscription on the use of that term. If there were other factors at play - if he was suspended retroactively for comments in earlier threads, then maybe the suspension was justified. I don't know. Thankfully, not my call to make. But given the questions raised about what [i]appears[/i] to be the reason for his suspension, some clarification might be helpful.

 

Erik Redburn wrote:

Is Zionist too hard to spell out in full?   Do you think its nice and friendly sounding or a valid anthropological term?  As for not saying its all the fault of Zionists, well you'll just have take a tiny step into basic interpretive reading.  Do any of the articles he published point ELSEWHERE for fault?  Or is the idea of a single Muslim making a poor moral choice or displaying individual human failing too much for the all-too-PC left?  Do you really BELIEVE the conspiracy theories posted in rebuttal to the temerity of a few here showing some sympathy and disgust at that senseless murder are true?   How about Israel being behind 9/11?

I have no problem answering any of these questions, but out of respect for the original spirit of this thread... Sealed

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

It's a busy weekend. Thanks for your comments in this thread and we'll address them when we can. Until then, I'm closing this thread because it's not looking very nice.

MegB

I've reviewed my decision to suspend NDPP and agree with M. Spector and other who have asked me to take a closer look at the thread.  He is reinstated with my apologies for misdirecting the blame for the disintegration of the Toulouse massacre thread.  I need to rethink how I respond when people are provoked and how I respond to individuals who bait.

Thank you all for the input.  It's been truly helpful.

Topic locked