What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here

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Sean in Ottawa
What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here

I will say things that most people here may take for granted because I think there are some who are either not aware or are not taking them into consideration. I would like to hope that our Liberal friends here can understand why the feelings run hot at times and why they feel there is a bias against their party. Liberals do not understand why the anger is so deep and so widespread against any aggressive posting style from them. They point to similar posts from some New Democrats and say what is good for them is good for the Liberals as well. All things being equal it would be. But all things are not equal.

I am not endorsing the posting of volumes of talking points by anyone and do not support some of the most partisan of posts by my NDP comrades. But, what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.

rabble.ca is called "News for the rest of us" it is funded by individuals and “left of centre” organizations in order to provide an alternate space for discussion that does not happen in the main stream media. Many people come here because this is one of the few (only?) places you can go to have a conversation that does (did) not have a presumption of the primacy of Liberal/Conservative visions of Canada. This place has a mandate and obligation to its founders and funders to offer a different perspective than the ubiquitous Liberal and Conservative perspective. We are here precisely to get away from the domination of those two party’s visions.

Yes, when New Democrats crowd out other parties like Greens or when they attack those who oppose participation in party politics and others -- they should be called out using the same logic: that the NDP has more airspace than they do outside of this place and must respect that others need this alternate space as well. New Democrats must be reminded of this. Moderators definitely do that from time-to-time.

But this does not apply to the Liberal party. The LPC is one of two parties that do not need an alternative space. The Liberal and Conservative talking points are not equal to the NDP ones here for that reason. The NDP perspective rarely gets presented in the MSM. But by the time I come to rabble.ca, I have already read, more often than I need to, Liberal and Conservative talking points. I understand why New Democrats come here to present what may not be found elsewhere. Liberals here should understand that for New Democrats this is the only source they may have for this vision. This is why I suggested a reserved forum here for them.

But Liberals here are like colonizers. They have their capital elsewhere. They seek to come here, dominate, and use the publicity resources of this place as an extension of the campaigns they wage elsewhere. This site is not an NDP site but it was specifically created to be an alternate to Liberal and Conservatives BY DEFINITION.

Many welcome testing our views against Liberals and are happy to see some participation from them but when it gets dominant, repetitive, insistent, aggressive, insulting, personal and trolling, the pushback is instinctual and yes, somewhat emotional. You Liberals are not on your home ground here. The rest of the people here are. You need to accept that. Sorry, this is NOT space for your talking points and accepted dogma. That space is the main stream media and their comment boards. This is a space with a mandate to discuss views that don’t otherwise get heard. Come here. Sure.

Here is where you might discuss ideas your party might accept but are on the fringes of acceptance and not recognized yet in the main stream media. Here you can debate what you have in common with progressives. Here is where you can insert from time to time a perspective to balance—with moderation. But when you seek to dominate this place with the accepted orthodoxy of your party and drive off opinions you don’t like, the response will NOT be the same as, for example, when a New Democrat posts things that the mainstream media won’t cover. And you will have to accept that the NDP and other parties don't like the Liberal party or leader much. Fighting that is pointless.

Here, when YOU throw around accusations of bullying, while engaged in nasty confrontations yourself, we recognize you for the collective you are part of: The Liberal Party with a domination of the public discourse that is far greater in proportion than the support your party holds; a party that has dominated the national agenda and culture; a party that has a lot more funding and many, many media supporters; a party that represents the current power structure of the country so many are left out of. You are huge. We are small. Most of all we recognize that you are the representation of what this refuge was built to be an alternate to.

When you seek to dominate the alternative space created to hear a vision other than yours, it is you that will be called a bully. Because this space was designed to be a refuge from you.

You Liberals are not just harming the NDP either. The fight you wage to take over the conversation here is getting pushback from NDP members. The resulting battle is leaving all the other voices that are not as loud -- even -- as the NDP excluded. You hardly hear from them anymore in the politics threads. That is a huge loss.

This does not mean that New Democrats should get mean or personal. But it explains why they retaliate by doing so when you do.

Your presumption of equality with the people who created this space to have some area you don’t dominate is controversial. You Liberals should be glad that the moderators and many members presume that you are, for the most part, equal here because this space was not built for you. Most people want to offer you the respect of equality because of the fundamental belief in the equality of persons. But the vision you present is not equal.

Yes we need to work on being more polite to you personally but we do not need to apologize for writing posts critical of your party and leader. That is part of the alternate vision this place is for.

***

Some will hate my perspective expressed above or disagree with it. But I write it because this is what I think more than a few people here believe and it might explain why we feel and act the way we do – as you seem not to be aware.It may explain why you think everyone is a bully but you.

You should be aware of this thinking because it exists and it does not require your approval to exist. When we are angry and you are calling us names -- like bullies -- think of this. Understand this. Just a bit.

We need to focus on allowing room for the smaller voices outside the NDP here -- not having to constantly defend this place against domination from one of the two traditional parties at every turn.

Pondering

I don't accept your premise that anyone who says they will vote Liberal is one or is not a progressive or belongs here less than someone who supports or votes for the NDP. 

The NDP is mainstream too. They support pipelines and CETA with the exception of the investor state provisions and they make more noise about the senate than they do about free trade. 

You draw the line between progressive and non-progressive based on political parties with the NDP coming on the progressive side but as far as I can tell the provincial NDPs haven't transformed the provinces in which they had power. The federal platform of the NDP and the Liberals will likely be similar enough that many people, especially NDP supporters, want a coalition. The NDP is mainstream too. 

So, this notion that the way a person votes defines their progressiveness is arbitrary. 

I don't promote "a Liberal vision" in any way. I am against CETA, against C-51, against Keystone, against P3s (and all new pipelines including Energy East). 

In my view, the NDP, even if elected, would not be able to pass as much progressive legislation as the Liberals can because they have the credibility to choose to run a deficit and the NDP doesn't (among other reasons). Not saying that's a fact. It's just my opinion. The NDP just isn't all that progressive. 

Unless moderators say otherwise this is as much my "home ground" as it is yours. 

 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
but as far as I can tell the provincial NDPs haven't transformed the provinces in which they had power.

Surely you're not ignoring those provinces who now enjoy Proportional Representation.

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

I don't accept your premise that anyone who says they will vote Liberal is one or is not a progressive or belongs here less than someone who supports or votes for the NDP. 

The NDP is mainstream too. They support pipelines and CETA with the exception of the investor state provisions and they make more noise about the senate than they do about free trade. 

You draw the line between progressive and non-progressive based on political parties with the NDP coming on the progressive side but as far as I can tell the provincial NDPs haven't transformed the provinces in which they had power. The federal platform of the NDP and the Liberals will likely be similar enough that many people, especially NDP supporters, want a coalition. The NDP is mainstream too. 

So, this notion that the way a person votes defines their progressiveness is arbitrary. 

I don't promote "a Liberal vision" in any way. I am against CETA, against C-51, against Keystone, against P3s (and all new pipelines including Energy East). 

In my view, the NDP, even if elected, would not be able to pass as much progressive legislation as the Liberals can because they have the credibility to choose to run a deficit and the NDP doesn't (among other reasons). Not saying that's a fact. It's just my opinion. The NDP just isn't all that progressive. 

Unless moderators say otherwise this is as much my "home ground" as it is yours. 

 

Interesting way to side-step the point -- completely.

First the NDP is a large party but it is not one of the mainstream parties in terms of acceptance by the mainstream media. Stop pretending it is. Suggesting the NDP and Liberals have the same position here or in the main stream media is being less than honest.

The NDP is not a party normally supported or endorsed by the MSM. Rabble was created for views the MSM was not covering -- this includes the NDP and does not include the Liberal party -- that is a fact. Rabble was created specifically as an alternative voice to the traditional pro Liberal and Pro Conservative media that exists everywhere else.

You start with a sweeping generalization that actually was already answered in my post -- which you read selectively and with bias.

I did not make this personal -- Liberals can come here and explore alternative ideas  so I did not say that you did not belong. I did not claim personally I have more right to be here than you. I did say this place is not designed for people to come here and regurgitate the talking points of either of Canada's two traditional parties which have long enjoyed a monopoly in the main stream media. I did not name you but you know this is about you because this is what you come here to do – almost all the time.

You are focusing on the word progressive which I used one time in my post. This focus is an attempt to avoid the thrust of what I said: AGAIN Standard Liberal talking points are not what this place is here for. When you talk about other things that are not heard enough -- perhaps the list of things you mentioned etc -- you are in the right place. But when you try to snow the political pages with Liberal Party talking points and nastiness and puff pieces about Trudeau-- you are not contributing what this place was built to share. And it is not unfair for me to say so. The NDP is a left party -- this is a left site -- not a centre site.

You refusing to see the difference between Liberal talking points and NDP voices seldom heard elsewhere in the media explains your aggression here, perhaps your misplaced bent feelings and your apparent need to correct every unliberal thought here.

This site was never intended to give equal space to the two over-represented mainstream parties compared to any of the left of centre parties that struggle to be heard.

You define yourself in your post as against CETA, C-51, Keyston, P3s. But that is not the face you present or the thrust of your posts. Generally you spend most of your energies defending Liberal positions, the Liberal leader and attacking the NDP from a Liberal partisan perspective, fighting with not one, but all NDP supporters here -- in very aggressive ways. You are being insincere in the way you describe your positions here. Your positions have mostly been around your support for the Liberal party and for Trudeau. Hardly a word on anything else.

If you were to write about your opposition to that list of things you mention from (and not exclusively as passive aggressive attacks on the left of centre parties) then you would not be swimming in ill-will here.

As others have put it the Liberal party loves the word progressive because it is a fuzzy word that has come to mean anything not conservative. It is designed to define common cause with people who think of themselves as left of centre by a party that is not left of centre but wants our votes.

This is not about having the moderators define you as unwelcome. It is not personal to you. This is about you realizing what this place is for, recognizing that you will never get wide support here for a vision of this site that sees the Liberal party and left parties and ideas as equal.

Frankly, on behalf of all New Democrats here, we could not care less how you define the NDP from your Liberal perspective. If we wanted to read that idea we would order the Star or go to the CBC.

And the definition of progressive that we use around here is left – so no, NOT Liberal. From our perspective Liberal is less conservative than the CPC -- NOT left.

So why don't you read up on the story of rabble and why it was created -- even Wiki can help you. Then you can stop demnading that the Liberal party be seen as part of the raison d'être of this site. Sorry but the NDP actually is part of that vision. And we don't much care that you want to deny the difference.

So, Pondering, welcome to Rabble. Let's hear you on Ceta, C-51, P3s etc. And maybe a little less shoving Trudeau and the Liberal party down our throats. And let's hear your ideas -- less talking points and I bet we would get along a hell of a lot better. If you have something in common with this comunity then share it, stop attacking it.

pookie

Can we get a list of standard Liberal talking points please?  That would help.

6079_Smith_W

Sean, the problem is not about politics and values. It is about tone and behaviour. On that I think you have a case.

So long as someone isn't obstructing discussion and doesn't flagrantly go against policy I don't care what perspective they are coming from.

We have way too much crap about who and what doesn't belong here as it is.

 

Slumberjack

6079_Smith_W wrote:
We have way too much crap about who and what doesn't belong here as it is. 

Do tell:

6079_Smith_W

Good one. I don't think anyone needs one of those though, unless they are feeling shy; we have been talking about it pretty openly.

Sean in Ottawa

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sean, the problem is not about politics and values. It is about tone and behaviour. On that I think you have a case.

So long as someone isn't obstructing discussion and doesn't flagrantly go against policy I don't care what perspective they are coming from.

We have way too much crap about who and what doesn't belong here as it is.

 

The problem includes attacks on the NDP by Liberals here followed by the interpretation that any defense from New Democrats is a personal attack on Pondering. She is denying that some of the NDP messages are here precisely becuase they are mostly excluded by the MSM. The competition by Liberals to match or exceed NDP perspectives here is a denial of the fact that the NDP perspective remains a marginalized perspective in the media and the Liberal perspective is not.

Sean in Ottawa

I thought I had been clear: the issue is not who is welcome and it never, ever has been.

There is no doubt that Pondering is welcome when she discusses those "progressive" issues such as what she listed in her post. As people we are all equal as contributors.

However:

This place is not here to be dominated by one of the two major parties' talking points -- these parties Liberal and Conservative dominate the media that this place is supposed to be an alternate to.

I disagree extremely strongly with Pondering's contention that in her view NDP and Liberal party positions have the same status here. The NDP is a left party no matter how pissed we may be at it at times. It is a party under-represented in the msm. And its members always have used this place as one place to discuss. Although it should not completely overtake all discussions here.

The NDP may be increasingly popular but don't sell me the crap that it is not a party marginalized in the mainstream media to the benefit of Liberals and Conservatives. If you don't like my attitude at least accept it as a reaction to denial by Liberals who have an entitled perspective of their position in the media and then come here to deny their priveleges seeking to dominate here as well.

But this is not a place where people who come from a left perspective will appreciate the Liberal party supporters coming here aggresively with the same stuff that is everywhere else. Yes, Liberals can discuss the issues they have in common with the people here and to discuss issues -- and they can challenge their party here from a "progressive point of view."

But the aggressive Liberal talking points, the aggressive advertising of Liberal leaders, and Liberal fan posturing etc. is not being taken by some here including myself as part of the mandate of the site. Some coverage of the NDP is part of the mandate as the NDP is left out of most msm -- or covered negatively as a matter of ideology and principle. Liberals are refusing to see this point. That is part of the friction here.

I write this to challenge the idea that the Liberal party should use this place to shout over NDP voices with their OFFICIAL talking points.

This is not about individuals. It is not about purity and it is not saying the NDP owns the site. But the NDP is one of the alternate voices this place was meant to carry and the Liberal party standard message is one of the things this place is to be an alternative to. Right now we have clear expression from Pondering that she does not see it that way.

In addition we have smaller voices than the NDP completely elbowed out of the discussion as the NDP supporters try to protect their relationship with this place from Liberal domination from Liberals who look at this place as another mainstream political site for them to dominate as much as they can. NDP supporters MUST recognize that we are not the only left voices that must be heard here and the Liberals MUST recognize that they are welcome but their party's talking points are not why we are here -- we are here to have an alternate vision to that. The vision of the NDP and Liberal PARTIES as equals here is causing a war across this site. They should not be considered equals. The Liberal party is an establishment capitalist party that dominates the airwaves and did so even when it was less popular than the NDP and that bias has been part of the ease with which that the Liberal party regained its positon in the polls.

So please no distorting what I am saying into suggestions that some people are not welcome -- or that discussion on CETA and other topics from a "progressive" (whatever that means) perspective are not welcome.

But this place is not being subsidized by progressives to be pissed on by Liberal talking points or to regale us with the fact that Trudeau had a good hair day. It is not about telling us the ten reasons why the Liberal party should be preferred over left alternatives. I read that shit before I got here.

Edited to underline the key points I am trying to put out here. I raise this becuase I realized that part of the problem is we see this site in different ways. Leftists see this as a special place -- Liberals see it as just another political place to promote their message. We have confirmation of that fact in this thread. I apologize for the length but I am rushed today and have little time to edit and this is central to what I feel is a major misunderstanding here.

ETA: Please note I came back to edit a "lieberal" to "liberal" -- If you see the former it is never an insult by me to that party. It is an unfortunate misordering of my fingers as they hit the keyboard. I Apologize for any other typos I have missed.

6079_Smith_W

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I thought I had been clear: the issue is not who is welcome and it never, ever has been.

And I didn't accuse you of saying that. I said that the problem isn't politics and values.

But if those who hold other values are welcome so long as they lurk silently and receive an education from us more enlightened types, I'd say the distinction is moot. And both calls are made regularly here.

As for your second post, again, I'd say it has more to do with tone and behaviour. Just because someone claims it is about marginalization doesn't make it so. That's another false claim we hear regularly.

pookie

So you're saying that the official opposition of this country is marginalized and, therefore, gets to call rabble a particular kind of home because it doesn't get that comfortable place anywhere else.

Got it.

Rokossovsky

Pondering wrote:

I don't accept your premise that anyone who says they will vote Liberal is one or is not a progressive or belongs here less than someone who supports or votes for the NDP. 

The NDP is mainstream too. They support pipelines and CETA with the exception of the investor state provisions and they make more noise about the senate than they do about free trade.

Please. You don't have to be NDP to be "progressive".

But something got lost in translation somewhere along the line, and people started thinking that being "progressive" might include, outsourcing unionized job to P3 contracts, selling off revenue producing crown corporations, raising consumption taxes, raiding publicly held trusts for cash to pay off debts caused by corporate tax cuts like the Liberals. 

Now you guys are actually supporting, not "abstaining" on, but actually supporting Harper's police state measures -- von Papen much?

Sean in Ottawa

pookie wrote:

So you're saying that the official opposition of this country is marginalized and, therefore, gets to call rabble a particular kind of home because it doesn't get that comfortable place anywhere else.

Got it.

Yes, I am saying that the official opposition is largely marginalized in the MSM. Why is that a shock? -- have a look at the forum section on the media-- been discussing this for ten years now.

Yes, NDP supporters post opinions here that you would be hard pressed to find anywhere else in the media at least in any proportion to Liberal positions.

The main capitalist parties do have advantages in the MSM from the media's corporate masters. So Bell media and others give much more air and more positive air to parties that respect a corporate agenda. Is this a shock?

Yes, so left of centre discussion INCLUDING NDP does find a home here.

Did I suggest that the NDP had exclusivity no -- not at all -- quite the opposite. The objective of this place was not to elevate party politics over all other discourse.

I did say that the Liberal-Conservative dominated MSM is what this place is meant to be an alternative to. Is that no longer true?

Is this a scandal me saying this? This is how this place was routinely defined for many years. If it has changed I'd like to know.

Does this place now consider talking points of the two old line capitalist parties now equal to the left of centre voices this place was supposed to promote?

Has the NDP been officially excluded from inclusion as one of the left of centre voices this place was designed to give room for?

Do let me know.

And I think it is not a bad thing to ask -- what are we here for? Sure not just NDP -- but the Liberal party? Why not invite conservatives as well then?

Or maybe this place has migrated to become a general political site and the left of centre people need to find a left of centre place like what this place used to be.

Sean in Ottawa

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I thought I had been clear: the issue is not who is welcome and it never, ever has been.

And I didn't accuse you of saying that. I said that the problem isn't politics and values.

But if those who hold other values are welcome so long as they lurk silently and receive an education from us more enlightened types, I'd say the distinction is moot. And both calls are made regularly here.

As for your second post, again, I'd say it has more to do with tone and behaviour. Just because someone claims it is about marginalization doesn't make it so. That's another false claim we hear regularly.

Noit suggesting lurking silently at all. But aggressive posting of talking points -- huge volume of Liberal news, attacks on left of centre parties and ideas etc. That is something else.

6079_Smith_W

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Noit suggesting lurking silently at all. But aggressive posting of talking points -- huge volume of Liberal news, attacks on left of centre parties and ideas etc. That is something else.

There is a key word in there: aggressive.

The rest of it? As has been said already, cobbling together a master list of banned subjects might cause more problems than it presumably solves.

We have been here before. We also have a small vocal contingent of firearms advocates. Do they show any signs of taking over anytime soon? I don't think so.

Besides, to some people's minds I am sure we have already made that sad decline to the centre, and you and I and the rest of us are part of it.

 

 

Caissa

I'm still looking for a good definition of "Progressive" as it applies to the early 21c. Frankly, I think it is meaningless.  At best it may cover all the sins that the term Popular Front did in the inter-war years.

Rokossovsky

Pretty much.

quizzical

Slumberjack wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:
We have way too much crap about who and what doesn't belong here as it is. 

Do tell:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYSVMgRr6pw

quizzical

"Take me to church
I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life

If I'm a pagan of the good times
My lover's the sunlight
To keep the Goddess on my side
She demands a sacrifice"

Drain the whole sea
Get something shiny
Something meaty for the main course
That's a fine-looking high horse
What you got in the stable?
We've a lot of starving faithful

That looks tasty
That looks plenty
This is hungry work

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

"Take me to church
I'll worship like a dog at the shrine of your lies
I'll tell you my sins and you can sharpen your knife
Offer me that deathless death
Good God, let me give you my life

If I'm a pagan of the good times
My lover's the sunlight
To keep the Goddess on my side
She demands a sacrifice"

Drain the whole sea
Get something shiny
Something meaty for the main course
That's a fine-looking high horse
What you got in the stable?
We've a lot of starving faithful

That looks tasty
That looks plenty
This is hungry work

I love that song. Check out this live performance from Paris in which Hozier was surprised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fjPfTBA40

 

jjuares

Well if the Liberals are feeling persecuted here, they shouldn't worry because soon enough Babble will follow other comment sections of other MSM sites and become basically an adjunct of the Liberal Party. We're almost there.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
they shouldn't worry because soon enough Babble will follow other comment sections

I think babble is more than a "comment section".

Quote:
of other MSM sites

I think rabble/babble is more than an MSM site.

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
they shouldn't worry because soon enough Babble will follow other comment sections

I think babble is more than a "comment section".

Quote:
of other MSM sites

I think rabble/babble is more than an MSM site.


Maybe now.

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
Interesting way to side-step the point -- completely.

First the NDP is a large party but it is not one of the mainstream parties in terms of acceptance by the mainstream media. Stop pretending it is. Suggesting the NDP and Liberals have the same position here or in the main stream media is being less than honest.

The NDP is not a party normally supported or endorsed by the MSM. Rabble was created for views the MSM was not covering -- this includes the NDP and does not include the Liberal party -- that is a fact. Rabble was created specifically as an alternative voice to the traditional pro Liberal and Pro Conservative media that exists everywhere else.

Trudeau gets criticized plenty in the MSM. Mulcair gets praised and gets plenty of attention whenever he has something to say. Rabble is an alternative to the MSM period.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
I did not make this personal -- Liberals can come here and explore alternative ideas  so I did not say that you did not belong. I did not claim personally I have more right to be here than you.

Liberals and NDPers can come here and explore alternative ideas as can anyone else.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
I did say this place is not designed for people to come here and regurgitate the talking points of either of Canada's two traditional parties which have long enjoyed a monopoly in the main stream media. I did not name you but you know this is about you because this is what you come here to do – almost all the time.

This place was not designed for people to come here and regurgitate the talking points of any political parties.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
But when you try to snow the political pages with Liberal Party talking points and nastiness and puff pieces about Trudeau-- you are not contributing what this place was built to share.

I rarely post new topics in the political pages. I voluntarily exclude myself from most NDP threads with the exception of rare comments. I don't think you are currently contributing to what this place was built to share so we are even on that score.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
And it is not unfair for me to say so. The NDP is a left party -- this is a left site -- not a centre site.

Label the NDP whatever you like, I look at policy and behavior. 

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
This site was never intended to give equal space to the two over-represented mainstream parties compared to any of the left of centre parties that struggle to be heard.

This space was never intended to give space to any particular political party. It is a place to discuss and promote progressive thought (as far as I can tell) and is heavily supported by unions.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
You define yourself in your post as against CETA, C-51, Keyston, P3s. But that is not the face you present or the thrust of your posts. Generally you spend most of your energies defending Liberal positions, the Liberal leader and attacking the NDP from a Liberal partisan perspective, fighting with not one, but all NDP supporters here -- in very aggressive ways. You are being insincere in the way you describe your positions here. Your positions have mostly been around your support for the Liberal party and for Trudeau. Hardly a word on anything else.

I have stopped discussing prostitution including the recent arrests connected to a national prostitution ring and the recent escape of a sex worker from a kidnapper who had assaulted her for five days. I rarely start any feminist discussions or participate in them much because of the disrespect from some male babblers and the lack of women on babble.

I post in support of the pipeline battles.

There are far more aggressive attacks against Trudeau, multiple threads started to criticize him and I participate in those occasionally. I primarily post in 3 threads. The one on Trudeau's campaign, the general federal election thread and the polls thread.

Apparently I am so all-powerful that this is enough to destroy babble.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
If you were to write about your opposition to that list of things you mention from (and not exclusively as passive aggressive attacks on the left of centre parties) then you would not be swimming in ill-will here.

We are all in agreement concerning C 51, CETA etc. so there isn't a lot to say. I criticize the federal NDP not parties on the left in general because I disagree with the actions of the NDP. I'm not swimming in ill-will. There are a handful of posters who go after me. Granted I am prickly and quick to call people out but if so I learned it here. I am content with how I have managed the adversity. I no longer get upset as I used to. I stretch my brain crossing swords. I learn more about myself when I defend my views. I learn from following links on topics some in threads I don't participate in.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
As others have put it the Liberal party loves the word progressive because it is a fuzzy word that has come to mean anything not conservative. It is designed to define common cause with people who think of themselves as left of centre by a party that is not left of centre but wants our votes.

I like the word progressive because it represents the desire for improvement and because it is broad and inclusive.I appreciate Syriza's approach of dismissing division on the left-right spectrum and focusing on what could be achieved together.

adjective 1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.

2. making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/progressive

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
Frankly, on behalf of all New Democrats here, we could not care less how you define the NDP from your Liberal perspective. If we wanted to read that idea we would order the Star or go to the CBC.

So? This should matter to me why? Reading my posts is non-compulsory.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
And the definition of progressive that we use around here is left – so no, NOT Liberal. From our perspective Liberal is less conservative than the CPC -- NOT left.

I don't consider the Mulcair led NDP all that progressive or left either.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
So, Pondering, welcome to Rabble. Let's hear you on Ceta, C-51, P3s etc. And maybe a little less shoving Trudeau and the Liberal party down our throats. And let's hear your ideas -- less talking points and I bet we would get along a hell of a lot better. If you have something in common with this comunity then share it, stop attacking it.

I'm already part of this community. Some posters and some lurkers have told me they enjoy reading my posts and would consider this a lessor place without me.

People who support Trudeau or the Liberal party have just as much right to post here and defend their view points as supporters of the NDP or of Mulcair do.

I define the Liberals as centrist and the NDP as centre-left but I also take into account what each party is capable of delivering, positions on various specific issues, and their tactics.

Another poster said something along the lines of there having been a liberal invasion. Maybe that is because progressives are considering the Liberals a viable choice again. They have every right to support that choice without being disrespected for it as do I.

 

 

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Maybe now.

I'm living in the now.

And if babble suddenly becomes the bought and paid for mouthpiece of the Liberal Party then that still won't be as much of an inconvenience to as many people as when MySpace went moribund.  If it's that bad, start looking for purer alternatives so you don't get caught napping.

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Maybe now.

I'm living in the now.

And if babble suddenly becomes the bought and paid for mouthpiece of the Liberal Party then that still won't be as much of an inconvenience to as many people as when MySpace went moribund.  If it's that bad, start looking for purer alternatives so you don't get caught napping.

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!"


It won't be bought and paid for it will just keep following the established trajectory. And yes, it won't be an inconvenience it will just be the way things are. No point in getting upset or looking for alternatives.

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
No point in getting upset or looking for alternatives.

I specifically noted that now's a great time to scout around for alternatives.

Does Counterpunch host forums?  Of the Liberal-free kind?

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
No point in getting upset or looking for alternatives.

I specifically noted that now's a great time to scout around for alternatives.

Does Counterpunch host forums?  Of the Liberal-free kind?


Liberal-free.? It doesn't exist.

Mr. Magoo

That's unfortunate.  Aren't there at least boards where they know to bow their heads?  Or have they pretty much taken over everywhere?

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

That's unfortunate.  Aren't there at least boards where they know to bow their heads?  Or have they pretty much taken over everywhere?


I don't know. Maybe you could go an extended quest and try to find one and report back to us in a few years. Bueno?

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
I don't know. Maybe you could go an extended quest and try to find one and report back to us in a few years. Bueno?

Sure.  I'll give you my executive summary in 2017.

But this isn't the 17th century, and I won't be waving as my boat sails off on this "quest" -- you get that, right?

Meanwhile, you hang in there, Eeyore.

6079_Smith_W

dp

6079_Smith_W

Actually who needs real invaders when you have the perennial chorus of how bad things have gotten and that no place is free of them?

And yeah, it is perennial.

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I don't know. Maybe you could go an extended quest and try to find one and report back to us in a few years. Bueno?

Sure.  I'll give you my executive summary in 2017.

But this isn't the 17th century, and I won't be waving as my boat sails off on this "quest" -- you get that, right?

Meanwhile, you hang in there, Eeyore.


Great I look forward to hearing from you again but not until 2017.
que estés bien

BTW- I love Winnie the Pooh so even a nasty name calling insult from that classic brings a smile to my face. TTFN

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
"Good morning, Eeyore," said Pooh.
"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it is a good morning, which I doubt," said he.
"Why, what's the matter?"
"Nothing, Pooh Bear, nothing. We can't all, and some of us don't. That's all there is to it."
"Can't all what?" said Pooh, rubbing his nose.
"Gaiety. Song-and-dance. Here we go round the mulberry bush."

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
"Good morning, Eeyore," said Pooh.
"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it is a good morning, which I doubt," said he.
"Why, what's the matter?"
"Nothing, Pooh Bear, nothing. We can't all, and some of us don't. That's all there is to it."
"Can't all what?" said Pooh, rubbing his nose.
"Gaiety. Song-and-dance. Here we go round the mulberry bush."


Tsk tsk... Not before 2017. You promised.

Mr. Magoo

Sure, a report on Liberal-free "safe spaces", by 2017.  I can do that while babbling, just as I can Google while babbling, yes?

[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/657b7m.png[/IMG]

Seriously, though, don't you think it's at least a little ironic that a thread titled "What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here" is in fact all about non-Liberals feeling persecuted by Liberals?

jjuares

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Sure, a report on Liberal-free "safe spaces", by 2017.  I can do that while babbling, just as I can Google while babbling, yes?

[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/657b7m.png[/IMG]

Seriously, though, don't you think it's at least a little ironic that a thread titled "What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here" is in fact all about non-Liberals feeling persecuted by Liberals?


Seriously though. I never said anything about being persecuted. I made the empirical observation that they are more prevalent in Babble as they have become in other sites. Is that observation correct? Maybe, maybe not but it has nothing to do with persecution. In fact I admired their disciplined approach 4 years ago when I participated in another site. I only stopped going there because it went behind a pay wall. It was lots of fun because they would get so upset with me when I would have the temerity to question their talking points. Some of them would reply with negative comment about Harper and at that point one of them would usually point out to the others that that wasn't a good reply to me because I was some sort of leftist. Now of course Babble has degenerated into a discussion about whether or not the Liberals are a viable option for people who want serious change in our society. Is the NDP the vehicle for changing our society? Probably not but I mean my goodness to even entertain the Liberals as a viable option is to engage in a truly bizarre conversation. Basically I am done here. I will participate in the Alberta forum until May 5 but I really have no appetite anymore to argue with Liberals. It isn't even a discussion of vision or policy. The Liberal point of view seems to be not a point of view but simply an ongoing promotion of Liberal electoral prospects via selected articles, polls, and columns. In other words, one big advertisement for Trudeau and the Liberals. All I can say is have at it.

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Sure, a report on Liberal-free "safe spaces", by 2017.  I can do that while babbling, just as I can Google while babbling, yes?

[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/657b7m.png[/IMG]

Seriously, though, don't you think it's at least a little ironic that a thread titled "What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here" is in fact all about non-Liberals feeling persecuted by Liberals?

I guess in spite of all the humour you bring to the thread you missed the point. Completely.

We have one Liberal posting aggressively attacks that have been at times on the NDP but have extended to progressives as a group. This thread is NOT a reaction to that.

However, NDP supporters and other posters respond with some justified anger to many of these comments.

The Liberal then calls any response to the pro-Liberal flow as a personal attack no matter how directly and exclusively the response is aimed at the post rather than the person. This is the claim of persecution. There are probably a hundred examples of this from the same person.

There is a pattern of constant provocation and attack and then running behind the shield of allegations of personal attacks when the responses in most cases have been limited, even when angry, to the behavior and words of the poster.

The Liberal claims that the Liberal party as a subject of promotion is here for the same reasons and has the same purpose being here as the NDP and any others. I challenged that because the NDP is on the right fringe of what this site was made for but it is within that definition. 

Anything more establishment -- more right -- is NOT why this place was created but what this place was to be an alternative to. If we cannot have a discussion about what this place is for without mocking posts then that is a sad reality.

I take the criticism that the NDP at moments can be like the establishment parties but it is not one of the establishment parties or accepted by the national media as are the Liberals and Conservatives. And for this reason the NDP remains one of the reasons this place is here-- not the only reason but one of the voices this place was designed to help be heard. The Liberal party is one of two VERY loud voices that this was to be an alternative to. So I started this in part to challenge the assertion that all parties are equally the purpose of this site. Arguably the NDP is at times at the edge of that definition but the Liberal party is definitely outside that.

This is NOT to say that Liberals must be excluded. But the ticker-tape promotion of their party, their talking points, their ultra partisan attacks and their cheerleading of their leader has made this site not what it was meant to be. People who want to be part of an alternative are leaving. Perhaps it is already too late and there are not even enough left to have a discussion here about why Babble even began..

I have been here when this was widely understood and accepted. Now we define the left so widely that it incorporates the established talking points of the Liberal party (which have moved to the right not the left in the time Babble has been here).

Pondering is clever. She does not defend her aggressive pro-Liberal party cheerleading and promotions that takes over many threads. She does not defend the volume of posts that are meant to attack the NDP. Instead she points to the TINY minority of her posts that are on other topics and tries to frame this as about her person. It never has been. This is about the attempt to correct non-Liberal points of view and the snowing of this place by Liberal talking points. It is in response to her assertion that this place is to be equally open to ongoing promotion of one of the establiehment parties. I simply had the audacity to point out that this is not why this place was created.

This thread, I created in response to all that. In response to her cries of persecution when anyone challenges the stream of official Liberal promotion she brings.

 

Sean in Ottawa

This is Harper's Canada: the Liberal party that likes to think of itself as the establishment, "the natural governing party" defining itself as part of the left group of voices excluded presently and historically from consideration by the business elite and most of the media. Liberals now elbowing the left for space on alternative media claiming to be part of why places like this exist.

So yes, I call bullshit on all that.

I have no problem with the ongoing discussion about whether the NDP belongs here but this debate does not extend to the Liberal OFFICIAL establishment voice and its propaganda boosters without at elast the right to question just how far we have come.

Rabble is an alternative left media channel -- or is that now up for debate?

jjuares

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

This is Harper's Canada: the Liberal party that likes to think of itself as the establishment, "the natural governing party" defining itself as part of the left group of voices excluded presently and historically from consideration by the business elite and most of the media. Liberals now elbowing the left for space on alternative media claiming to be part of why places like this exist.

So yes, I call bullshit on all that.

I have no problem with the ongoing discussion about whether the NDP belongs here but this debate does not extend to the Liberal OFFICIAL establishment voice and its propaganda boosters without at elast the right to question just how far we have come.

Rabble is an alternative left media channel -- or is that now up for debate?


Absolutely. Should the NDP as it's presently organized be considered a left alternative? I don't know. But to ask the same question of the Liberal Party (as we are essentially doing on this site now) is to truly enter the real of the absurd.

Pondering

jjuares wrote:
Now of course Babble has degenerated into a discussion about whether or not the Liberals are a viable option for people who want serious change in our society. Is the NDP the vehicle for changing our society? Probably not but I mean my goodness to even entertain the Liberals as a viable option is to engage in a truly bizarre conversation.

Depends on how you define serious change but I don't think either party is a vehicle for seriously changing our society. Or rather, I don't think the Liberals or the Mulcair's NDP are a vehicle for changing our society. The NDP under a different leader might be.

If neither party is a vehicle for serious change, then I am choosing the party best placed to successfully tweak the system in such a way as to improve life for those most in need and make some headway on the environment.

jjuares wrote:
  It isn't even a discussion of vision or policy. The Liberal point of view seems to be not a point of view but simply an ongoing promotion of Liberal electoral prospects via selected articles, polls, and columns. In other words, one big advertisement for Trudeau and the Liberals.

That covers the majority of posts for the NDP and for anti-Liberal posts. Just on-going random attacks with no substance coupled with an entitlement attitude that dictates the NDP be accepted as automatically the better choice regardless of policy, leader or behavior.

Due to his mother's experiences Trudeau has a personal interest in mental health care which he has spoken of openly. He has spoken out in favor of marijuana legalization, something that is long overdue and will positively impact Canada in myriad ways. There have been multiple indications that the Liberals intend to defend deficit spending. Environmental protection will be upgraded. A spokesperson confirmed that they have an innovative daycare plan. He has spoken out on indigenous issues stating that Canada should fund indigenous education equally or better emphasizing that they are the fastest growing demographic in Canada therefore we can't afford not to provide the best education possible. In his recent speech he acknowledged indigenous people as current second class citizens in Canada. If he becomes PM it will be his responsibility to address it. He has denounced limitations being placed on the hijab and denounced the Quebec Charter of Values which was popular in Quebec.

Supporting C-51 was a mistake and disappointing as it undermines his defence of liberty but it doesn't wipe out everything else. His economic team is corporate friendly but it is a team that recognizes the longterm economic cost of inequality and the value of investing in the population as a country's greatest natural resource. I think he wants to restore Canada's reputation as peacekeepers and humanitarians. He will overturn the ban on aiding maternal health organizations that provide abortions.

The NDP retort to all of that is to prove the Liberals are liars which shuts down any discussion on the relative merits of the parties.

I have specific complaints about the NDP under Mulcair but I won't reiterate them here.

It is perfectly valid for progressives to choose to vote Liberal based on their policies and ability to deliver results.

 

 

 

 

 

jjuares

Pondering wrote:

It is perfectly valid for progressives to choose to vote Liberal based on their policies and ability to deliver results.


LOL

jjuares

Pondering wrote:
His economic team is corporate friendly but it is a team that recognizes the longterm economic cost of inequality and the value of investing in the population as a country's greatest natural resource../quote

Ha ha ha

mark_alfred

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
I will say.... [a billion words snipped]

I can't believe the amount of energy expended over one troll. 

troll wrote:
Blah blah I support first past the post blah blah I feel unions should not exist blah blah I support Harper's approach to the sex trade blah blah Canadians favour Keystone blah blah I don't favour Keystone or any pipeline so Trudeau gets my support blah blah NDP not progressive blah blah progressives are bullies blah blah I'm progressive but no parties are progressive so Libs are best blah blah.....

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

I consider myself a Marxist/socialist with views well to the left of the NDP, although I do vote for the NDP due to a lack of any better party to vote for. I rarely post in the politics threads anymore, because any voices that are not Liberal or NDP partisan get ignored.

I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

The bigger problem to me is the dominance of babble by Debater and North Report. The majority of threads are started by these two, and the majority of these are redundant. Debater's repeatedly asserts that "Ontario is a conservative province where the NDP can't win", and accuses NR of being a Conservative Party supporter. NR constantly asserst his opinions as fact, and is repeatedly antagonistic towards Debater. If I stop posting here altogether, it will most likely be because of these two.

That and the fact that the moderators are not stepping in to deal with this problem. Warnings, backed up by the threat of suspensions and bannings, need to be used. No babbler should be above this. Unfortunately, the mods appear to bee awol most of the time now.Frown

Mr. Magoo

Quote:
Unfortunately, the mods appear to bee awol most of the time now.

To be fair, if rabble isn't paying them to be here then they may be absent, but hardly without leave.

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Unfortunately, the mods appear to bee awol most of the time now.

To be fair, if rabble isn't paying them to be here then they may be absent, but hardly without leave.

This is certainly a fair point the volume here is a lot for such a small moderator team.

Pondering

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The Liberal then calls any response to the pro-Liberal flow as a personal attack no matter how directly and exclusively the response is aimed at the post rather than the person. This is the claim of persecution. There are probably a hundred examples of this from the same person.

There is a pattern of constant provocation and attack and then running behind the shield of allegations of personal attacks when the responses in most cases have been limited, even when angry, to the behavior and words of the poster.

Then it should be easy to find a few examples. I don't have to go far to find evidence of your obsession over my support for Trudeau's Liberals.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
I take the criticism that the NDP at moments can be like the establishment parties but it is not one of the establishment parties or accepted by the national media as are the Liberals and Conservatives. And for this reason the NDP remains one of the reasons this place is here-- not the only reason but one of the voices this place was designed to help be heard. The Liberal party is one of two VERY loud voices that this was to be an alternative to. So I started this in part to challenge the assertion that all parties are equally the purpose of this site. Arguably the NDP is at times at the edge of that definition but the Liberal party is definitely outside that.

The NDP is about an inch left of the Liberals. Mulcair gets plenty of positive attention in the mainstream press. They are still gushing over his performance cross examining Harper over the Duffy affair. No political party forms part of the reason this place is here.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
Pondering is clever. She does not defend her aggressive pro-Liberal party cheerleading and promotions that takes over many threads. She does not defend the volume of posts that are meant to attack the NDP. Instead she points to the TINY minority of her posts that are on other topics and tries to frame this as about her person. It never has been. This is about the attempt to correct non-Liberal points of view and the snowing of this place by Liberal talking points. It is in response to her assertion that this place is to be equally open to ongoing promotion of one of the establiehment parties. I simply had the audacity to point out that this is not why this place was created.

This place was not created for any political parties.

Ongoing promotion of any political party is not what this place is for. It is for discussing Canadian politics and posters are allowed to have positive or negative opinions about any political party or politician as long as those opinions don't contravene policy in some way.

I don't need to defend my right to support Trudeau or to criticize Mulcair anymore than you do to do the opposite.

Julie Van de Valk is just the type of young person that Canada's major progressive political parties want to attract. There's just one problem: she's not impressed by any of them. Van de Valk, 20, is a third-year geological engineering student at the University of British Columbia. In her spare time she helps run a campaign to divest the school's endowment from oil and gas companies. Climate change is so urgent that "it's not something we can wait another day to address," she told The Tyee.

Van de Valk does not fit the prevailing stereotype of Millennials: lazy, apathetic and uninformed. She's so passionate about global warming she spent a recent Saturday knocking on doors in Vancouver as part of a Storm the Riding campaign to raise awareness of climate solutions. But Van de Valk refrained that day from endorsing a specific political party. None of them, in her opinion, "are addressing climate change with the type of leadership that people who understand the issue want to see."

http://thetyee.ca/News/2015/04/06/Young-Voters-Could-Defeat-Harper/

The NDP isn't attacking neoliberalism, speaking against CETA with the exception of the investor state mechanism. They aren't saying the oil sands have to be ramped down. They aren't speaking out against Canada's arms industry. I applaud them for standing up against C 51 and against the ISIS misson but it doesn't make them the only choice for progressive people. The NDP has to earn their votes.

 

Left Turn Left Turn's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Unfortunately, the mods appear to bee awol most of the time now.

To be fair, if rabble isn't paying them to be here then they may be absent, but hardly without leave.

This is certainly a fair point the volume here is a lot for such a small moderator team.

I don't think the number of moderators is the problem. The problem is that since the paid moderator position got cut, there's been nothing to ensure that the mods put in enough hours to do a proper job. I frequently see things here that require moderator attention, but which don't get any. I don't know if the mods are currently doing anything besides responding to the complaints queue. In any case, the mods popping in periodically to ask pepople to please play nice is not sufficient to deal with the problems that babble is facing.

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