I found this post, number 37, very disheartening.
http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/this-not-ndp-website?page=1
Apparently I shouldn't quote from it here but I could not let it pass unanswered because it is by a mod. That means I am taking the chance of being banned but it is worth it.
So, you wanna be a Liberal, be a Liberal and own it. Just know that in a lot of discussion about the NDP however, you'll be looking in as an outsider. Hell, you can even be a fiscal conservative. We even have a history of one doing well here for years, because he happened to be a very pleasant and courtious guy. *waves at Heywood*. Social conservatives can expect a short life.
What if you don't want to be a Liberal? What if you are just someone who supports Trudeau specifically and are angry at the NDP?
There seems to be just as many posters here that support Trudeau as support the NDP not because they are Liberals but because they preferred Liberal policy. This has been referred to as a Liberal invasion.
Nathan Cullen said this:
Cullen, who has been the MP from Skeena–Bulkley Valley in B.C.'s Northern interior since 2004, doesn't think so. Most New Democrats have an "allergic reaction" to big deficit spending, he said. The working poor are usually the first to understand that deficits are unsustainable, and "pay-as-you-go spending is ingrained in our thinking."
Not only is Cullen comfortable with the NDP position, he thinks the New Democrats couldn't get away with running deficits in the same manner the Liberal party can.
Deficits were and are inevidable even without the Liberal infrastructure program. Economists even in the Globe and Mail and National Post were criticizing the focus on having a balanced budget and were referring to 10 billion dollar fluctuations as no big deal given the size of our economy.
The NDP was unwilling to be truthful because the NDP believes they don't have the credibility to defend running a deficit. Instead they expected Canadians to believe that a 2% increase in corporate taxes would pay for all their promises.
The NDP is unwilling to make the progressive arguments. but we are supposed to just accept that the NDP is the progressive party.
Most people who voted Liberal and/or support Trudeau did so because he presented the most credible package not because they are Liberals.
There are many men here who vehemently defend prostitution. Is it okay for me to infer they must all be Johns due to their enthusiastic support?
It's not okay to impose identities on other people.
Understand however, that the bulk of members here are having a hard enough time sorting out their feelings about the NDP, and most of the fire coming at the party as it currently stands is coming from the left.
It is my understanding that such situations are exactly why rules of civility exist. We are adults. Having a hard time sorting out feelings is not an excuse to harass or attack other posters, or shouldn't be. Some posters that haven't been around for awhile have expressed their surprise over the abusive behavior being tolerated.
When I come across flame wars I usually can't tell who was at fault first and I generally couldn't care less. I'm just not interested and it taints the site.
How broad an audience does babble want to serve? It's valid to want to limit it to primarily activists, but you don't have many of them here. Or to activists and NDP supporters, but not a lot of those seem to hang out here either. You could add academics, but those seem few and far between as well. It seems the constituency you are aiming at doesn't want to be here or doesn't exist.
There is insufficient appreciation for those of us who don't fall in those categories.
This thread suggests separate forums for NDPers and Liberals.
http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/new-forum-one-ndp-one-liberal
I'm all for it. The Liberal forum would have no posters at all, or maybe 1. The NDP forum would have a flurry of posts from about 5 posters then it would die except for occasional flurries of trying to make it seem active, and maybe not even that.
Liberal supporters, or at least those who appear to be often wander into this crossfire, and muddy and confuse things. You are also walking into what may be an already tense family disagreement. I am of the belief that this is more often intentional, has a certain passive aggressive flavour, and thereby drawing a level of hostility.
What is more passive aggressive than throwing out that kind of accusation against members of babble? I guess you are disinterested in why former family members left. The urge is to close ranks.
Here is something else Nathan Cullen said in the same interview.
If two political leaders say the exact same thing, depending on who says it, the reception can be totally different.
That happens here too but it should not be supported by moderators.
As far as I know the only person here who identified as a Liberal is Debater and he destroyed his membership based on the Liberal position on C 51. The rest have all cited specific reasons why they decided to support the Liberals or Trudeau during this election.
Calling any of us liars is not okay. Repeately challenging our right to participate in conversations including personal slurs is not okay. If NDPers need a protected zone create one. You want a specific "no pondering zone" make one but in the general political forums I should be entitled to the same respect as anyone else.
It is too bad that you don't post here. I am not a Marxist but a social democrat but I feel that the NDP is due a critique from the left. And yes there are so any redundant threads including one polling thread for each company!
On the other hand, when they do act, what happens...
It is clear that you are not so much missing the point as avoiding it. You are unreachable and therefore there is no point continuing this.
Thank-you, I have been making an effort and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.
On the unprovable points, they form part of my reasoning for supporting the Trudeau Liberals for 2015. Because they are unprovable, or difficult to prove, it is up to readers to assess whether or not they are reasonable conclusions.
Consider the following:
http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/the-inner-circle-inside-trudeaus-economic-advisory-team/
That is an illustrious group of people that know what they are talking about. Reading that article convinced me that the Liberal economic platform will be excellent. It's true that I don't have proof but I don't need proof. If other people think I am too easily impressed and this economic advisory team might put forth a really crappy economic plan they are entitled to their opinion. I won't argue the point.
A Liberal spokesperson did say they had an innovative childcare plan but I haven't got a link to it. Even if I had not read that I would still be certain that the Liberals will have a daycare plan of some sort. Everyone knows they had one in the works in 2005 and since then national daycare has gained in prominence. It has economic benefits so it is an easy sell. The lack of one is a major critique of the Harper government. To me it's a no brainer that Trudeau will have it in his platform. Because I heard it described as innovative I am guessing that it will be means tested to exclude families like his own.
Based on Liberal fund-raising results, the poll numbers he has maintained longterm, and the caliber of people he has attracted to run, I think Trudeau has solid base support so I don't see his support dropping much more if at all. Of course it is within the realm of possibility that the Liberals would drop to 3rd again. In my estimation it's not going to happen.
I am not alone in acknowledging Trudeau playing his cards so close to the chest is eating into his support. It is difficult to support someone who isn't sharing his plans. Harper fatigue has risen despite the ISIS blip but NDP numbers are down from 2011.
I think it's logical to conclude that Trudeau will have a strong platform and introducing it will increase his support.
There are some posters who are convinced greater exposure will decrease Trudeau's support. From his performances in interviews I think the opposite. It's fair to share those conclusions on both sides.
No one here is sticking to facts. I regularly read negative theories regarding how Trudeau will fair during campaign season and ridiculously exagerated statements. How about that thread about Trudeau's almost daily "gaffes". 365 days in a year, has Trudeau even made a hundred of these so-called gaffes? Babble does not stick to factual information not that it should. This isn't a newspaper. Everyone is expressing opinions.
I can't say that I am marxist or socialist or anti-capitalist. I am anti-oligarch and I believe the key to increasing democracy lies in opening up government data well beyond sunshine lists.
I missed responding to this.
Liberals aren't standing in the way of a reserved forum for NDP supporters. I'm all for it.
It's not really much of a compliment. LOL But oh well.
they sure have delivered results.. results impacting us today.
napfta making us slaves to USA corporations for evermore
no national child care program leaving 10's of thousands of children hungry and poor because their parents can't afford childcare, food and housing expenses
increased numbers of food banks because they continued to make their friends rich off the backs of hard working canadians and gutted social infrastructure transfer payments to do it.
supported the conservatives in all their actions so they could continue the liberal's make the rich richer policies.
failed to impliment a national energy program protecting canadian's natural resources.
failed to impliment environmental protections like they said they would.
oh i could go on and on but you get the point....