What Liberals are missing when they feel persecuted here

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jjuares

Left Turn wrote:

I consider myself a Marxist/socialist with views well to the left of the NDP, although I do vote for the NDP due to a lack of any better party to vote for. I rarely post in the politics threads anymore, because any voices that are not Liberal or NDP partisan get ignored.

I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

The bigger problem to me is the dominance of babble by Debater and North Report. The majority of threads are started by these two, and the majority of these are redundant. Debater's repeatedly asserts that "Ontario is a conservative province where the NDP can't win", and accuses NR of being a Conservative Party supporter. NR constantly asserst his opinions as fact, and is repeatedly antagonistic towards Debater. If I stop posting here altogether, it will most likely be because of these two.

That and the fact that the moderators are not stepping in to deal with this problem. Warnings, backed up by the threat of suspensions and bannings, need to be used. No babbler should be above this. Unfortunately, the mods appear to bee awol most of the time now.Frown


It is too bad that you don't post here. I am not a Marxist but a social democrat but I feel that the NDP is due a critique from the left. And yes there are so any redundant threads including one polling thread for each company!

6079_Smith_W

Left Turn wrote:

In any case, the mods popping in periodically to ask pepople to please play nice is not sufficient to deal with the problems that babble is facing.

On the other hand, when they do act, what happens...

Sean in Ottawa

Pondering wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

The Liberal then calls any response to the pro-Liberal flow as a personal attack no matter how directly and exclusively the response is aimed at the post rather than the person. This is the claim of persecution. There are probably a hundred examples of this from the same person.

There is a pattern of constant provocation and attack and then running behind the shield of allegations of personal attacks when the responses in most cases have been limited, even when angry, to the behavior and words of the poster.

Then it should be easy to find a few examples. I don't have to go far to find evidence of your obsession over my support for Trudeau's Liberals.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
I take the criticism that the NDP at moments can be like the establishment parties but it is not one of the establishment parties or accepted by the national media as are the Liberals and Conservatives. And for this reason the NDP remains one of the reasons this place is here-- not the only reason but one of the voices this place was designed to help be heard. The Liberal party is one of two VERY loud voices that this was to be an alternative to. So I started this in part to challenge the assertion that all parties are equally the purpose of this site. Arguably the NDP is at times at the edge of that definition but the Liberal party is definitely outside that.

The NDP is about an inch left of the Liberals. Mulcair gets plenty of positive attention in the mainstream press. They are still gushing over his performance cross examining Harper over the Duffy affair. No political party forms part of the reason this place is here.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
Pondering is clever. She does not defend her aggressive pro-Liberal party cheerleading and promotions that takes over many threads. She does not defend the volume of posts that are meant to attack the NDP. Instead she points to the TINY minority of her posts that are on other topics and tries to frame this as about her person. It never has been. This is about the attempt to correct non-Liberal points of view and the snowing of this place by Liberal talking points. It is in response to her assertion that this place is to be equally open to ongoing promotion of one of the establiehment parties. I simply had the audacity to point out that this is not why this place was created.

This place was not created for any political parties.

Ongoing promotion of any political party is not what this place is for. It is for discussing Canadian politics and posters are allowed to have positive or negative opinions about any political party or politician as long as those opinions don't contravene policy in some way.

I don't need to defend my right to support Trudeau or to criticize Mulcair anymore than you do to do the opposite.

Julie Van de Valk is just the type of young person that Canada's major progressive political parties want to attract. There's just one problem: she's not impressed by any of them. Van de Valk, 20, is a third-year geological engineering student at the University of British Columbia. In her spare time she helps run a campaign to divest the school's endowment from oil and gas companies. Climate change is so urgent that "it's not something we can wait another day to address," she told The Tyee.

Van de Valk does not fit the prevailing stereotype of Millennials: lazy, apathetic and uninformed. She's so passionate about global warming she spent a recent Saturday knocking on doors in Vancouver as part of a Storm the Riding campaign to raise awareness of climate solutions. But Van de Valk refrained that day from endorsing a specific political party. None of them, in her opinion, "are addressing climate change with the type of leadership that people who understand the issue want to see."

http://thetyee.ca/News/2015/04/06/Young-Voters-Could-Defeat-Harper/

The NDP isn't attacking neoliberalism, speaking against CETA with the exception of the investor state mechanism. They aren't saying the oil sands have to be ramped down. They aren't speaking out against Canada's arms industry. I applaud them for standing up against C 51 and against the ISIS misson but it doesn't make them the only choice for progressive people. The NDP has to earn their votes.

 

It is clear that you are not so much missing the point as avoiding it. You are unreachable and therefore there is no point continuing this.

Pondering

Left Turn wrote:
I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

Thank-you, I have been making an effort and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.

On the unprovable points, they form part of my reasoning for supporting the Trudeau Liberals for 2015. Because they are unprovable, or difficult to prove, it is up to readers to assess whether or not they are reasonable conclusions.

Consider the following:

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/the-inner-circle-inside-trudeaus-economic-advisory-team/

That is an illustrious group of people that know what they are talking about. Reading that article convinced me that the Liberal economic platform will be excellent. It's true that I don't have proof but I don't need proof. If other people think I am too easily impressed and this economic advisory team might put forth a really crappy economic plan they are entitled to their opinion. I won't argue the point.

A Liberal spokesperson did say they had an innovative childcare plan but I haven't got a link to it. Even if I had not read that I would still be certain that the Liberals will have a daycare plan of some sort. Everyone knows they had one in the works in 2005 and since then national daycare has gained in prominence. It has economic benefits so it is an easy sell.  The lack of one is a major critique of the Harper government. To me it's a no brainer that Trudeau will have it in his platform. Because I heard it described as innovative I am guessing that it will be means tested to exclude families like his own.

Based on Liberal fund-raising results, the poll numbers he has maintained longterm, and the caliber of people he has attracted to run, I think Trudeau has solid base support so I don't see his support dropping much more if at all. Of course it is within the realm of possibility that the Liberals would drop to 3rd again. In my estimation it's not going to happen.

I am not alone in acknowledging Trudeau playing his cards so close to the chest is eating into his support. It is difficult to support someone who isn't sharing his plans. Harper fatigue has risen despite the ISIS blip but NDP numbers are down from 2011.

I think it's logical to conclude that Trudeau will have a strong platform and introducing it will increase his support.

There are some posters who are convinced greater exposure will decrease Trudeau's support. From his performances in interviews I think the opposite. It's fair to share those conclusions on both sides.

No one here is sticking to facts. I regularly read negative theories regarding how Trudeau will fair during campaign season and ridiculously exagerated statements. How about that thread about Trudeau's almost daily "gaffes".  365 days in a year, has Trudeau even made a hundred of these so-called gaffes? Babble does not stick to factual information not that it should. This isn't a newspaper. Everyone is expressing opinions.

I can't say that I am marxist or socialist or anti-capitalist. I am anti-oligarch and I believe the key to increasing democracy lies in opening up government data well beyond sunshine lists.

Pondering

I missed responding to this.

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
But by the time I come to rabble.ca, I have already read, more often than I need to, Liberal and Conservative talking points. I understand why New Democrats come here to present what may not be found elsewhere. Liberals here should understand that for New Democrats this is the only source they may have for this vision. This is why I suggested a reserved forum here for them.

Liberals aren't standing in the way of a reserved forum for NDP supporters. I'm all for it.

 

jjuares

Pondering wrote:

Left Turn wrote:
I actually don't consider Pondering to be the worst offender at this point. I do wish she would stop posting unprovable points such as "When justin releases his platform, Liberal support will rise", "The Liberals are better positioned to make positive change", "The NDP is no better than the Liberals", "The Liberals platform will include a childcare plan", and "The Liberals will not finish third", but overall I think Pondering's behaviour has improved over what it was.

Thank-you, I have been making an effort and I'm glad you shared your thoughts.


It's not really much of a compliment. LOL But oh well.

quizzical

Pondering wrote:
It is perfectly valid for progressives to choose to vote Liberal based on their policies and ability to deliver results.

 

they sure have delivered results.. results impacting us today.

napfta making us slaves to USA corporations for evermore

no national child care program leaving 10's of thousands of children hungry and poor because their parents can't afford childcare, food and housing expenses

increased numbers of food banks because they continued to make their friends rich off the backs of hard working canadians and gutted social infrastructure transfer payments to do it.

supported the conservatives in all their actions so they could continue the liberal's make the rich richer policies.

failed to impliment a national energy program protecting canadian's natural resources.

failed to impliment environmental protections like they said they would.

oh i could go on and on but you get the point....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pondering

quizzical wrote:

Pondering wrote:
It is perfectly valid for progressives to choose to vote Liberal based on their policies and ability to deliver results.

they sure have delivered results.. results impacting us today.

napfta making us slaves to USA corporations for evermore

no national child care program leaving 10's of thousands of children hungry and poor because their parents can't afford childcare, food and housing expenses

increased numbers of food banks because they continued to make their friends rich off the backs of hard working canadians and gutted social infrastructure transfer payments to do it.

supported the conservatives in all their actions so they could continue the liberal's make the rich richer policies.

failed to impliment a national energy program protecting canadian's natural resources.

failed to impliment environmental protections like they said they would.

oh i could go on and on but you get the point....

I do get the point, but there have also been positive achievements by the Liberals in the past and parties evolve as conditions evolve. The NDP isn't promising to roll back all the tax cuts.The provincial NDPs have passed some progressive policies but nothing dramatic. All the provinces signed up to CETA. World wide the pendulum is swinging away from austerity

Not to beat a dead horse but Kelowna and and a National Daycare plan were both on the verge of implementation when the government fell.

In my opinion the Liberals will be judged on the content of their platform and the credibility of their candidates and leader to deliver it.