The vaccine is here. Now what?

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Aristotleded24
The vaccine is here. Now what?

Continuing the discussion

NDPP

Don't we have enough of these threads?

Aristotleded24

Are airports defending the freedom to travel?

Quote:

Airports Council International, which represents airports worldwide, joined most airlines in calling for a choice between testing or vaccination, fearing a blanket rule imposing pre-flight inoculation would be as disruptive as quarantines.

Qantas Airways triggered the debate last week when it said a COVID-19 vaccination would be necessary for passengers on its international flights, which remain largely idle because of Australia’s strict border controls.

But other airlines, and now global airports, are worried that waiting for vaccines would bar people from traveling until they are rolled out widely, crippling business in regions, such as Europe that have relatively small domestic aviation markets.

“Just as quarantine effectively halted the industry, a universal requirement for vaccines could do the same,” ACI World Director General Luis Felipe de Oliveira told Reuters.

“While we welcome the rapid development and deployment of vaccines, there will be a considerable period before they are widely available,” he added.

...

Dr David Freedman, a U.S. infectious diseases specialist, believes more countries will follow Britain’s lead and use testing to reduce quarantine times.

“For the majority of the world’s population, especially in the developing world, it’s going to be years before everybody that wants to fly even has the possibility of getting the vaccine,” said Freedman, a professor at University of Alabama at Birmingham.

JKR

A vaccine should be offered to every person in every country in the world.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

JKR wrote:

A vaccine should be offered to every person in every country in the world.

Agreed.

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:

JKR wrote:

A vaccine should be offered to every person in every country in the world.

Agreed.

For those who want it, and especially who are vulnerable to a bad outcome, I also support that, provided the vaccine has been shown to be safe and effective. I do not support any measures that would restrict people's movements based on their vaccination status, for example if  you had to produce a vaccination certificate to fly, go to the store, attend a concert, game or festival or anything else around those lines.

While we're looking at threats to global health, can we also do a vaccination against cholera while we are at it?

Ken Burch

I'm going to turn 60 in December, and

A) Because people in that age group and older are at the highest risk for Covid,

B) Because I've talked enough about the importance of the vaccine that I'm well into the "put up or shut up!" zone,

I will be taking the vaccine as soon as I can.

 

Aristotleded24

Hey Ken, we should have a virutal, babble, socially-distanced birthday party for you! :)

You've decided to take the vaccine. I hope it all works out well for you.

JKR

Ken Burch wrote:

I'm going to turn 60 in December, and

A) Because people in that age group and older are at the highest risk for Covid,

B) Because I've talked enough about the importance of the vaccine that I'm well into the "put up or shut up!" zone,

I will be taking the vaccine as soon as I can.

 

I'll be taking the vaccine as soon as I can too. I'm 56. Taking the vaccine will also help the other 7.6 billion people on this planet recover from the Covid-19 crisis.

NDPP

'Now What?'

 Get the obviously necessary vaccine as soon as humanly possible.

 

7 Myths about the COVID-19 Vaccine Debunked by Doctors

https://www.bustle.com/wellness/covid-19-vaccine-myths-debunked-doctors

"Health experts have said that a COVID-19 vaccine is probably much the only way life will get back to a pre-pandemic 'normal' whatever that means..."

I've done my research. Pro and Contra. My conclusions. The doctors and scientists are trustworthy - the science is logical and proven. Do your own you will conclude as I do. Get the jab.

Ken Burch

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Hey Ken, we should have a virutal, babble, socially-distanced birthday party for you! :)

You've decided to take the vaccine. I hope it all works out well for you.

Thanks, I think. And any "virtual" gathering is socially distanced to start with.

 

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Hey Ken, we should have a virutal, babble, socially-distanced birthday party for you! :)

You've decided to take the vaccine. I hope it all works out well for you.

Thanks, I think. And any "virtual" gathering is socially distanced to start with.

 

When the border opens in the spring we can have a real party!

Pondering

First double post. Damn you computer!

Pondering

66 here, and I will get the vaccine the moment it is offered to me but I am happy to wait in line behind all health care workers including all staff in hospitals and longterm care homes and after those older than myself recieve it. Although it probably won't be possible I would also wait in line behind all workers deemed essential.  (transportation and food industry workers). I have the luxury of staying safe at home. 

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

I'm 73 and my feelings are about the same as Pondering's on this issue.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Here's a blog post about the reactions on right wing web sites' comment sections to the announcement that former presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama will be receiving public vaccinations to show their confidence in the vaccine. It seems the brethren just can't believe that these elites would actually take the real, microchipped vaccine. It'll just be a placebo they get, not the enslaving Bill Gates vaccine the rest of us will get.

Pondering

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Michael Moriarity wrote:

JKR wrote:

A vaccine should be offered to every person in every country in the world.

Agreed.

For those who want it, and especially who are vulnerable to a bad outcome, I also support that, provided the vaccine has been shown to be safe and effective. I do not support any measures that would restrict people's movements based on their vaccination status, for example if  you had to produce a vaccination certificate to fly, go to the store, attend a concert, game or festival or anything else around those lines.

While we're looking at threats to global health, can we also do a vaccination against cholera while we are at it?

Agreed. I can see some instances where proof of vaccination may be required but not many and it doesn't seem practical. Virtually forcing people to take it through major restrictions on their ability to navigate the country would be impractical and would fuel conspiracy theorists. 

I could see it being a requirement for schools and crossing country borders depending on how wide the take-up is. If enough people take it voluntarily that should be enough to achieve herd immunity allowing those who are against to to take their chances. 

Ken Burch

Pondering wrote:

66 here, and I will get the vaccine the moment it is offered to me but I am happy to wait in line behind all health care workers including all staff in hospitals and longterm care homes and after those older than myself recieve it. Although it probably won't be possible I would also wait in line behind all workers deemed essential.  (transportation and food industry workers). I have the luxury of staying safe at home. 

And, of course, I would do that to.  What I meant was that as soon as the essential workers and the elderly were given the vaccine, I would take it.

My initial post was not meant as an implication that I'd push ahead of others in line.

NDPP

How to handle the COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough the right way

https://twitter.com/DrTomFrieden/status/1335027867655286785

"Dazzling scientific progress has given us a tool to end the pandemic's misery and save hundreds of lives, but there are still many hurdles to clear..."

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Having recently turned 60 myself with no celebration beyond the bubble of my husband and cat, I will definitely line up for the vaccine under the same conditions stated so well by Ken B, JKR, Pondering and Michael M. As part of the young old club, I hope we do get to celebrate beyond our bubbles sometime in 2021.

Pondering

Ken Burch wrote:

Pondering wrote:

66 here, and I will get the vaccine the moment it is offered to me but I am happy to wait in line behind all health care workers including all staff in hospitals and longterm care homes and after those older than myself recieve it. Although it probably won't be possible I would also wait in line behind all workers deemed essential.  (transportation and food industry workers). I have the luxury of staying safe at home. 

And, of course, I would do that to.  What I meant was that as soon as the essential workers and the elderly were given the vaccine, I would take it.

My initial post was not meant as an implication that I'd push ahead of others in line.

Of course. I didn't intend to imply anything about your post. 

kropotkin1951

I am fast approaching a new digit in front of my age, as my handle implies. I am of mixed feelings about the vaccine. I have never taken a flu shot despite having been in the age group that is recommended for. That is because the flu shots aren't necessarily for the flu going around in your part of the country and I haven't had the flu in decades.

However before I even have to decide I too will wait my turn behind others who need the protection more. I can easily see a COVID vaccine becoming a instant VISA requirement around the world. China's various vaccines are in the mass testing stage with many of the volunteers being people who work overseas. They too seem to be having no problem finding people willing to take the shot. By the time it's my turn to decide I am sure there will be enough results to make an informed decision.

Aristotleded24

This idea needs to be stopped in its tracks:

Quote:

Christine Elliott made the remarks during an update on the province’s COVID-19 vaccine distribution plans on Monday.

“We can’t force anybody to take the vaccine but I agree with the premier — we really encourage everyone who is able to, to have the vaccination,” Elliott said.

“There may be some restrictions in terms of travel or other restrictions that may arise as a result of not having a vaccination, but that’s going to be up to the person themselves to make that decision on the basis of what’s most important to them. But we do wish everyone to receive the vaccination.”

...

Last week, Ontario chief medical officer Dr. David Williams also commented on the possibility of restrictions for those who don’t receive a COVID-19 vaccine.

Williams said while no one will be forced to get inoculated, if individuals don’t get a vaccine, they may not be allowed into certain settings without some sort of added protection.

“So what may be mandatory is proof of immunization or vaccination with a proper product in order to have latitude and freedom to move around in certain — like to access into long-term care facilities, or the hospital and different things without wearing … personal protective equipment,” he said.

The only reason anyone should take a covid vaccine is if, after having looked into it, they feel that the benefits to health are worth it. Whether or not someone gets the vaccine should be their choice. Period. They shouldn't feel pressured to do so for reasons other than health in order to do things they find worthwhile. Could you imagine a situation where people have to disclose whether or not they are HIV positive to get into certain places? Health records are a personal matter, and should stay that way.

The idea of not being allowed into an LTC facility is also odd, since one would presume the residents would have the vaccine being in the high risk category. Furthermore, even during the H1N1 pandemic, we never made public access to these facilities conditional on having a flu shot. Why would we do that for this?

Vaccination status should be between you and your doctor, and nobody else. You should not have to disclose it to anyone in order to do the things you love. That right needs to be enshrined into law. We need to have this conversation now before it's too late.

Aristotleded24

I hate to rain on the parade, but...

Actually no, I will rain on this parade. There seems to be great enthusiasm and excitement about the release of the coming vaccines. Normally vaccines take years to develop, test and release. These vaccines were released in well under a year, and with a desire to get "back to normal," there was every incentive to rush them and skip safety protocols. My question to those ready to take this vaccine and who are encouraging everyone else to do so is: Given that this vaccine was released less than a year since we started looking, and that it is a new kind of vaccine that has never been used on humans before, how do we know that the risk of longer term effects (i.e. 5, 10, 20 years down the road) are outweighed by its benefits?

Pondering

Other countries may demand vacinations.

The vaccine is not 100% effective and not everyone will be able to take it. You may not have noticed but they said people without the vaccine would have to wear PPEs, not that they would be barred. 

No politcian is suggesting that this is even a consideration. It is pretty difficult to get people to protest something that has not happened and is not even a part of official discussions. 

Aristotleded24

Pondering wrote:
You may not have noticed but they said people without the vaccine would have to wear PPEs, not that they would be barred.

Taking precautions is pretty standard in hospitals already. When visiting my granmother in hospital and the ICU, they had me take precautions then. If those precautions are in line with what is already happening, then the politicians and the medical beaureaucrats need to shut up and stop scaring people needlessly.

eastnoireast

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Here's a blog post about the reactions on right wing web sites' comment sections to the announcement that former presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama will be receiving public vaccinations to show their confidence in the vaccine. It seems the brethren just can't believe that these elites would actually take the real, microchipped vaccine. It'll just be a placebo they get, not the enslaving Bill Gates vaccine the rest of us will get.

https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/colinpowell-iraq-w...

http://www.trbimg.com/img-572a3ea4/turbine/ct-obama-flint-water-crisis-2...

-

regardless, i wish everyone here the best of health, whatever their personal decision is in regards to vaccination.

Aristotleded24

laine lowe wrote:
I hope we do get to celebrate beyond our bubbles sometime in 2021.

Dr. Tam poured cold water on the idea that a vaccine would mean less restrictiosn a long time ago. The only way these restrictions are going to be lifted is if We The People use our democratic voice to tell the government, "we want these restrictions lifted."

Aristotleded24

Here's more about how the vaccine will work, from Fauci himself:

Quote:
A key point to note, however, is that the vaccine isn’t an end-all solution to the pandemic. That’s in large part because any inoculations developed now are focused on simply preventing symptoms from arising, rather than blocking out the virus altogether.

 

The latter goal is a secondary endpoint, according to Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

“The primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected, prevent them from getting sick, and if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill,” Fauci said at Yahoo Finance’s All Markets Summit Monday.

“What I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint to prevent clinically recognizable disease,” he said.

NDPP

"Pandemics are a particularly important moment for phase 4 trials, because (a) we are giving vaccine to a ton of people of all ages over a short period of time (so increase in absolute risk) and (b) because by definition we have a new vaccine for a new bug." (see more in this thread)

https://twitter.com/DFisman/status/1335997895988948992

Bacchus

laine lowe wrote:

Having recently turned 60 myself with no celebration beyond the bubble of my husband and cat, I will definitely line up for the vaccine under the same conditions stated so well by Ken B, JKR, Pondering and Michael M. As part of the young old club, I hope we do get to celebrate beyond our bubbles sometime in 2021.

 

What did your cat get you?

JKR

Bacchus wrote:

laine lowe wrote:

Having recently turned 60 myself with no celebration beyond the bubble of my husband and cat, I will definitely line up for the vaccine under the same conditions stated so well by Ken B, JKR, Pondering and Michael M. As part of the young old club, I hope we do get to celebrate beyond our bubbles sometime in 2021.

 

What did your cat get you?

I hope it was purr-fect.

kropotkin1951

How to focus our masters attentions.

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

JKR wrote:

Bacchus wrote:

laine lowe wrote:

Having recently turned 60 myself with no celebration beyond the bubble of my husband and cat, I will definitely line up for the vaccine under the same conditions stated so well by Ken B, JKR, Pondering and Michael M. As part of the young old club, I hope we do get to celebrate beyond our bubbles sometime in 2021.

 

What did your cat get you?

I hope it was purr-fect.

You two are very funny. I have to say that being under restrictions made my celebration far more soothing than if my husband had gone ahead and created a big, social event. My cat, The Weasel, contributed by not destroying the handmade socks, bunny print face mask, or pillow cases that I was gifted :-) But he attended the birthday toast.

Bacchus

As long as he wasn't catty about it or gave you something too purrrrple

Since I just had my 57th I too will be in line for the vaccine when it is available but my wife may have to wait due to her issues with allergens

 

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

Very cute, Bacchus. As for the vaccine roll out, it will be interesting to see this next phase in this brave new world works out. The reactions from people with allergies was a bit alarming but when thinking about it, kind of makes sense since because they likely have a very sensitive immune reaction to all sorts of things. In terms of age, I think it will be awhile before people under the age of 80 years old get a jab.

NDPP

I won't hold my breath for this vaccination either. Something tells me it's going to take a while....

 

 

NDPP

Investigation launched after CF member called on fellow soldiers to ignore orders to help distribute COVID vaccine

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/investigation-laun...

"The Canadian Forces is investigating after one of its members spoke at an anti-lockdown rally in Toronto on the weekend and called on military personnel to disobey orders to help in the distribution of covid-19 vaccine...'

In fact, covid-19 vaccine is the antidote to lockdowns. Besides, isn't he paid to follow orders?

Bacchus

laine lowe wrote:

Very cute, Bacchus. As for the vaccine roll out, it will be interesting to see this next phase in this brave new world works out. The reactions from people with allergies was a bit alarming but when thinking about it, kind of makes sense since because they likely have a very sensitive immune reaction to all sorts of things. In terms of age, I think it will be awhile before people under the age of 80 years old get a jab.

';) I live to serve, or so my wife and cats tell me.

 

My wife has MAS cell syndrome so side effects could be fatal but she has since read up on it and she should be fine. Whenever we would get a chance to get it that is

kropotkin1951

To bad Canada is not part of the global economy but is stuck in the NATO loop, if it was then maybe we would be seeing the possibility of various vaccines being made available in the coming months. This article has a good explanation of the various types of vaccines and what global efforts are underway to insure equitable access planet wide.

Most of the Western COVID-19 vaccines are using the CanSino approach. But again, storage in sub-zero conditions is problematic in warmer climates.

All, however, are gearing up for production to be sent overseas. Sinovac has signed deals to provide 46 million doses of its COVID-19 vaccine to Brazil and 50 million doses to Turkey, and will also supply 40 million doses of vaccine bulk – the vaccine concentrate before it is divided into little vials – to Indonesia for local production.

CanSino will deliver 35 million doses of its vaccine to Mexico, while CNBG has been looking at markets in the Middle East and South America. The UAE is to jointly produce with CNBG about 100 million doses in 2021, negotiations with other countries are ongoing. CNBG has stated it can produce more than one billion doses in 2021.

China has also joined the COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access (COVAX) facility, an effort led by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the global Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) to make sure that any products are proven to be safe and effective and quickly reach rich and poor countries alike.

Back in China, the regulators appear to be satisfied with studies from each of these three companies as concerns a China national vaccination program. In June, CanSino received authorization to vaccinate the military, and since then both Sinovac and CNBG have received the go-ahead to vaccinate large populations in China outside of ongoing clinical trials.

https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-covid-19-vaccine-development-...

Douglas Fir Premier

I'm in no rush to get the vaccine - if I get it at all.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Douglas Fir Premier wrote:

I'm in no rush to get the vaccine - if I get it at all.

Do you believe that the risk of harm from the vaccine is greater than the risk of harm from infection with covid? And when I say "risk", I mean it in the technical sense of "probability of harmful event" times "damage caused by harmful event". I'm not being critical, just curious about how you come to this decision.

Pondering

I think a great many people will get the vaccine before me so if there are bad side-effects they will be apparent. 

An interesting angle is that health care professionals are not required to take the flu shot as far as I recall the last time I heard about it. The majority do but it is not complusory. I wonder if taking the Covid vaccine will be a precondition of working in health care?

JKR

I work in a health care setting. During flu season we have to get the annual flu shot and if we don't we are required to wear a mask at work.

Aristotleded24

Michael Moriarity wrote:

Douglas Fir Premier wrote:

I'm in no rush to get the vaccine - if I get it at all.

Do you believe that the risk of harm from the vaccine is greater than the risk of harm from infection with covid? And when I say "risk", I mean it in the technical sense of "probability of harmful event" times "damage caused by harmful event". I'm not being critical, just curious about how you come to this decision.

We have been working on this vaccine for less than a year. It is not like other vaccines that have decades of data and experience to go by. This one is not only new, but it's a new type of vaccine that humans have never had before. How do we know there aren't big risks to health from this vaccine that won't show up next year, 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years from now? That's why vaccines usually take years to develop and to test before they are released publicly.

JKR

Most of us already know there are huge risks from Covid-19.

kropotkin1951

JKR wrote:

I work in a health care setting. During flu season we have to get the annual flu shot and if we don't we are required to wear a mask at work.

That is my understanding for BC as well.

Aristotleded24

JKR wrote:
Most of us already know there are huge risks from Covid-19.

There are huge risks to being alive. The only people who are truly safe are in cemeteries.

contrarianna

Quote:
How do we know there aren't big risks to health from this vaccine that won't show up next year, 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years from now? That's why vaccines usually take years to develop and to test before they are released publicly.

Very unlikely.  Vaccine approval for safety is not of dependent on years but on Phase trials I to III which,  as we have seen, can be expedited by economics, government, and public demand. Anti-vaxxer claims about the dangers of approved vaccines are dubious at best.

The possible harm "down the road" from vaccines are pretty minimal compared to even the already known "down the road" effects of Covid-19.

Covid-19's fatality vs recovery rate is probably  the most over-emphasized statistical focus on the disease for the media and population weighing the risks.

COVID-19 (coronavirus): Long-term effects

COVID-19 symptoms can sometimes persist for months. The virus can damage the lungs, heart and brain, which increases the risk of long-term health problems.
By Mayo Clinic Staff...

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

  *Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
    
*Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.
    
*Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.
....
Older people and people with many serious medical conditions are the most likely to experience lingering COVID-19 symptoms, but even young, otherwise healthy people can feel unwell for weeks to months after infection. The most common signs and symptoms that linger over time include:

    Fatigue
    Shortness of breath
    Cough
    Joint pain
    Chest pain

Other long-term signs and symptoms may include:

    Muscle pain or headache
    Fast or pounding heartbeat
    Loss of smell or taste
    Memory, concentration or sleep problems
    Rash or hair loss

...
Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Blood clots and blood vessel problems....

Problems with mood and fatigue....

Many long-term COVID-19 effects still unknown

Much is still unknown about how COVID-19 will affect people over time. However, researchers recommend that doctors closely monitor people who have had COVID-19 to see how their organs are functioning after recovery.

Many large medical centers are opening specialized clinics to provide care for people who have persistent symptoms or related illnesses after they recover from COVID-19....

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coro...

As Their Numbers Grow, COVID-19 “Long Haulers” Stump Experts
....
Overall, approximately 10% of people who’ve had COVID-19 experience prolonged symptoms, a UK team estimated in a recently published Practice Pointer on postacute COVID-19 management. And yet, the authors wrote, primary care physicians have little evidence to guide their care....

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2771111

 

 

JKR

Aristotleded24 wrote:

JKR wrote:
Most of us already know there are huge risks from Covid-19.

There are huge risks to being alive. The only people who are truly safe are in cemeteries.

And some people who stick their heads in the sand also feel completely safe. 

Aristotleded24

contrarianna wrote:
Quote:
How do we know there aren't big risks to health from this vaccine that won't show up next year, 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years from now? That's why vaccines usually take years to develop and to test before they are released publicly.

Very unlikely.  Vaccine approval for safety is not of dependent on years but on Phase trials I to III which,  as we have seen, can be expedited by economics, government, and public demand. Anti-vaxxer claims about the dangers of approved vaccines are dubious at best.

Because a private, for-profit company that has just come out with a vaccine that the whole world is scared of and wants to end, is acting out of the goodness of its heart and has no incentive to lie about efficacy or safety?

contrarianna wrote:
Covid-19's fatality vs recovery rate is probably  the most over-emphasized statistical focus on the disease for the media and population weighing the risks.

Many viral infections (even influenza) leave long-term damage to the body. Having said that, the issue of long-term impacts from covid is an important subject. I've seen some evidence to suggest that lung damage can be repaired. About the heart imaging, is that just something that shows up on a test, or are people actually presenting with symptoms of cardiac distress? We also know that covid spreads more easily among people in poverty, many of whom already have health struggles. Do the studies account for that? Do antecedent health problems make one more vulnerable to long covid? I've seen some of the studies that documented these outcomes. In many cases, they had very small samples of people who had covid (some specifically mentioned hospitalized patients) that, while the data is useful and should lead to more inquiry, cannot be extrapolated from to generalize about everyone with covid. Speaking of "everyone with covid," I find the data about the exact numbers quite unreliable. In October, the World Health Organization estimated 760 million people were infected with covid worldwide. That number is well above what is on the Worldometers page. If the WHO redid that survey, they would estimate even more people are infected. Are all of these people at risk of long covid? What of people who test positive without ever experiencing any symptoms?

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