The vaccine is here. Now what?

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eastnoireast

JKR wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

After unprofessional theatrical performances like this by Walensky and the e-mails showing that Fauci knew different things than what he was saying publicly before covid became a pandemic, it's a wonder why anybody takes these individuals or the organisations which they lead seriously any more.

Fauci and Walensky are internationally respected  immunologists.

kissenger and baird are internationally respected diplomats. 

JKR

Kissinger and Baird are right wing diplomats / politicos. Are you saying Fauci and Wolensky are right wing scientists? It seems to me that, unlike politics, science has to be based on scientific peer reviewed evidence. Like it or not, Fauci and Wokensky are basing their decisions on science.

bekayne

JKR wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

After unprofessional theatrical performances like this by Walensky and the e-mails showing that Fauci knew different things than what he was saying publicly before covid became a pandemic, it's a wonder why anybody takes these individuals or the organisations which they lead seriously any more.

Fauci and Walensky are internationally respected  immunologists.

More than "random guy with YouTube channel"?

Aristotleded24

JKR wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

After unprofessional theatrical performances like this by Walensky and the e-mails showing that Fauci knew different things than what he was saying publicly before covid became a pandemic, it's a wonder why anybody takes these individuals or the organisations which they lead seriously any more.

Fauci and Walensky are internationally respected  immunologists.

You didn't watch the video I posted. Her emotional "message of doom" was entirely unprofessional and unbecoming of a leader in public health communications. The goal of public health communications should always be to provide the straight forward facts and to calm people down whenever possible. Engendering fear in a population over infectious diseases is irresponsible. Fauci's mixed messaging (and that's the most charitable term I can use) on origins of covid, mask wearing, constantly changing the goal posts on herd immunity and admitting it was because he wanted to nudge people to take the vaccines is problematic.

They may have the best knowledge and credentials in the world. The way they have behaved in their roles is atrotious. Furthermore, as immunologists, their expertise is limited. They may know about immunology, but as immunologists they do not have the expertise to evaluate the large scale implications of their dictates, for example economic fall-out or the psychological impacts. That's why a multi-disciplinary approach is called for, and when you get down to it, there is no such thing as a "public health expert." Many different kinds of expertise are called for in the situation.

Aristotleded24

Most vaccinated country now under indefinite lockdown:

Quote:

Seychelles extended curbs imposed on movement and gatherings indefinitely as the world’s most-vaccinated nation fights a persistently high number of coronavirus infections.

The palm-fringed Indian Ocean archipelago has seen a large number of infections since early May even though 70% of it 98,000 people are fully vaccinated with either Sinopharm or AstraZeneca Plc vaccines. It had rushed to conduct an inoculation campaign and reopen to tourism, the lifeblood of its economy.

“In view of the persistent community transmission of Covid-19, the increasing number of deaths, the confirmation of the presence of variants circulating in the population, the Public Health Authority is reinforcing the public health and social measures in place,” the health ministry said in a statement on Friday.

JKR

Unlike politics, in science "flip flopping" and "moving the goal posts" is called changing recommendations in response to new scientific evidence. 

Aristotleded24

JKR wrote:
Unlike politics, in science "flip flopping" and "moving the goal posts" is called changing recommendations in response to new evidence.

Changing the guidance on masks had nothing to do with scientific validity of them and was instead designed to protect the mask supply for health care workers. Fauci admitted to changing the estimate of the population requiring vaccination, not because that is what the data said, but because he didn't think that the public could handle the high estimate, so he started low and then increased his estimate in order to nudge people into accepting a high vaccination threshold. In other words, his changing on the estimate of the number of people who needed to be vaccinated was driven by political considerations, not data.

JKR

His support for vaccinations is scientifically based.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

You didn't watch the video I posted.

Neither did I. My system blocked it citing "unusual traffic from your computer."

JKR

Maybe that was just Bill Gates infiltrating the Internet to put his chips into us?!?!?!?!

josh

It had rushed to conduct an inoculation campaign and reopen to tourism, the lifeblood of its economy.

I wonder how many of those tourists were from nearby India.

Pondering

Aristotleded24 wrote:

JKR wrote:
Unlike politics, in science "flip flopping" and "moving the goal posts" is called changing recommendations in response to new evidence.

Changing the guidance on masks had nothing to do with scientific validity of them and was instead designed to protect the mask supply for health care workers. Fauci admitted to changing the estimate of the population requiring vaccination, not because that is what the data said, but because he didn't think that the public could handle the high estimate, so he started low and then increased his estimate in order to nudge people into accepting a high vaccination threshold. In other words, his changing on the estimate of the number of people who needed to be vaccinated was driven by political considerations, not data.

I agree that much of the messaging was dishonest and intended to manipulate us. Discouraging mask usage in particular was irresponsible as was the emphasis on risk to the elderly which I gather was to keep young people going to work. That kind of political messaging including from scientists embedded in government agencies and the WHO has been very damaging and created the distrust we are seeing now as well as the risk-taking based on government reassurances. 

The opening in Quebec is horrendous. It's going to make the fourth wave a lot worse and I fear it will arrive early, although early arrival is our best chance of reinstating protections before winter causes it to explode. This is due to the pumping the brake approach of just keeping our hospitals from collapsing. 

People need what they have always needed, basic information on spread. The greatest risk I have faced over the past year was getting vaccinated.

I arrive to be vaccinated. I have to remove my mask before they put a dime's worth of disinfectant on my hands which doesn't even touch my fingers. The person dispersing the disinfectant is standing a foot an a half away with nothing but a loose fitting surgical mask.  She uses tongs to pick up a new mask to give me which of course does not fit as well as the one I was wearing in the first place. 

There are eight people working sitting two to a table. They are no more than 3 feet tops from one another. I am not more than 3 feet from them. Loose fitting masks for all. No faceshields. I interact at three tables before finally getting my vaccine. I am then forced to wait for 15 minutes in the same room sitting no more than 3 feet from other people waiting out their time. Every time anyone stands up from a chair a worker rushes to disinfect the centre of the seat and back, which no one ever touches with their hands. I almost forgot. There were 3 school aged children in the room with their mother who they sang happy birthday to. This is in the vaccination room. 

These are medical professionals and either they don't understand how the virus is transmitted or they are just going through the motions because it's the rules. 

There is a possibility of transmission through droplets that have landed on a surface but it is very unlikely unless you are working with someone who is ill so spending a lot of time in their environment. 

By far the greatest risk of catching covid is from arosolized particles. Most of the disinfecting of hands and surfaces is theatre. It helps but it is much less important than air transmission. "Deep cleaning" is ridiculous and entirely unnescessary. Wait three days. It's dead. It was always safe to go see grandma and grandpa as long as you didn't breath the same air. 

Six feet is not a safe distance if it is a small space where someone asymtomatic is or has been spending time. Even if they have left the room it is possible the air is still contaminated when you walk in. An elevator is probably safe because few people hang out in an elevator long enough to contaminate a large volume of air but it is still possible.

It is also possible to die in a car accident while wearing a seatbelt so we do take risks in life. A doctor was asked if a child should still play hockey, and he responded that hockey itself carries risk but that as far as covid was concerned he was more likely to catch it sitting on the bench or in the changing rooms than on the ice. 

Mont Royal avenue terraces are packed. The tables are no more distant than they used to be. The sidewalks are swarming. I'm certain people are using the indoor washrooms. Maybe it will be okay because it is mainly outdoors but indoor dining is also opening up. 

There are no rules that will keep us safe. We have to avoid breathing each other's air. Imagine that everyone is smoking and you are trying to stand far enough away not to breath their smoke. Imagine walking through a room in which a smoker exhaled once in comparison to a room in which the smoker sat for an hour. Same applies to Covid. A whiff is probably low enough that you won't catch it but if you get a big dose the risk is high.

eastnoireast

Pondering wrote:

People need what they have always needed, basic information on spread. The greatest risk I have faced over the past year was getting vaccinated.

as above, so below.  i'd say the vaccination experience which you described is a perfect illustration and reflection of the overall response.  lots of whiz-bang hi tech and disposible plastic, fuck-all common sense, and absolutely no treatment of the underlying causes.

 

Pondering wrote:

There are no rules that will keep us safe. We have to avoid breathing each other's air.

avoiding breathing other people's air would be entirely impractical for anyone below the 1%, which is us, and even then.   we're not going to stop or eradicate covid, or build some magic shield between us and it.   

humanity is not going to avoid breathing each other's air going forward.   we're going to continue to sing happy birthday!, that's what we do; and this whole humanity vs the alien covid enemy other is not going to work out. 

10% of our genome is viri-derived.  we have met the enemy, and it is us.

protect and support the vulnerable, make sure everone has, oh, i dunno, food and clean water and a safe spot to sleep?   slow things down till one understands the virus better, sure, but with the goal to letting humanity adapt to the new neighbours, like it always has.  

let's face it - phizer and co haven't been around for most of humanity's time, and yet here we are; overpopulating the earth, belching f-35 exhaust, messing with dna, and staring at flourescent-lit screens made from conflict minerals.

"our" response to covid is based on overblown fear, a fundamental lack of understanding of our relationship to nature, or our place in the world, and the consolidation of elite power.

Aristotleded24

eastnoireast wrote:
protect and support the vulnerable

I'll add to this and say that it should be on empowerment and choice. If you're in your 70s or 80s, and you love to hear the choir sing at Christmas and Easter, are we really doing you a favour you by telling the choirs that they can't sing in person?

Edzell Edzell's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

eastnoireast wrote:
protect and support the vulnerable

I'll add to this and say that it should be on empowerment and choice. If you're in your 70s or 80s, and you love to hear the choir sing at Christmas and Easter, are we really doing you a favour you by telling the choirs that they can't sing in person?

Listen kid :), It already IS my choice and I don't need or expect you to do me any favours.

Officiailly discouraging or even preventing choirs from singing in close groups during a pandemic seems wise, and is intended to do everyone a favour, but it's a completely separate issue from whether I myself choose to risk attending a live performance. I  am  in my 80's. I  love  choral music and acapella vocal harmony, to the point of obsession, but I won't be attending any concerts in the near future. My choice.

Haha, just pulling your leg (mostly) but you stuck it out there.

 

JKR

Are we doing people a favour by minimizing the deaths of millions of people dying from Covid?

eastnoireast

JKR wrote:

Are we doing people a favour by minimizing the deaths of millions of people dying from Covid?

no, we would not be, if that were happening.   perspective is good, though.

for the record, i also have nothing against apple pie.

~55 million people die each year.

we are at a 70-year historical low in terms of deaths-per-thousands.

people die.

people will die because of how "we" are fucking this up.  

look at pondering's vaccination experience.    a year+ in, "we" can't even do the industrial magic pill saviour thing right, in the middle of urban 1% society.  

then there's the rest of the planet.

not that the magic pill is gunna do it anyway.  son of delta-plus custom will be along.

-

meanwhile, wealth disparity accelerates and warplanes go about their filthy buisness, as lockdowns for the commoners decimate small buisness, small and medium people, and the very trust and fabric of community.

those who die from that are never counted, breathlessly, on the nightly news. 

they're minimized, one could say.

 

 

josh
Aristotleded24

josh wrote:

https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/status/1408915466760900613?s=20

 

That this Twitter author is capitalizing on a tragic situation in order to push his agenda to try and coerce people to take the vaccine is reprehensible. Even if we accept that this man "caused his family heartache," is that any different than a heart attack survivor ignoring a doctor's advice on diet and exercise and then passing away? That happens all the time, but we don't hear about it.

ETA: Now I can't even access the tweet.

josh

That's an absolutely ridiculous comparison.  Apples and oranges.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

ETA: Now I can't even access the tweet.

Neither did I but it might be worth noting that heart attacks (all variants) are not thought to be transmissible. I don't think there's even so much as a conspiracy theory about  that.

Edzell Edzell's picture

eastnoireast wrote:

JKR wrote:

Are we doing people a favour by minimizing the deaths of millions of people dying from Covid?

no, we would not be, if that were happening.   perspective is good, though.

for the record, i also have nothing against apple pie.

~55 million people die each year.

we are at a 70-year historical low in terms of deaths-per-thousands.

people die.

people will die because of how "we" are fucking this up.  

look at pondering's vaccination experience.    a year+ in, "we" can't even do the industrial magic pill saviour thing right, in the middle of urban 1% society.  

then there's the rest of the planet.

not that the magic pill is gunna do it anyway.  son of delta-plus custom will be along.

-

meanwhile, wealth disparity accelerates and warplanes go about their filthy buisness, as lockdowns for the commoners decimate small buisness, small and medium people, and the very trust and fabric of community.

those who die from that are never counted, breathlessly, on the nightly news. 

they're minimized, one could say.

 

 

It's astonishing how many non-sequiturs manage to follow each other.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

"coerce people to take the vaccine"

When/how do 'advise' & 'encourage' become 'coerce'?

Quote:
That happens all the time, but we don't hear about it.

So, like, um ... how do 'we' know?

[/quote]

Aristotleded24

Edzell wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

"coerce people to take the vaccine"

When/how do 'advise' & 'encourage' become 'coerce'?

When there is serious discussion about people not being able to attend sporting events, concerts, education, shop in a store, travel, go to a restaurant, or just live their lives as free human beings, and when someone's primary motivation for taking the vaccine isn't "I've done the risk assessment and I think this is the best decision for my health" but rather, "I'm taking the vaccine because I want to travel," that is coercion.

Aristotleded24

Edzell wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

ETA: Now I can't even access the tweet.

Neither did I but it might be worth noting that heart attacks (all variants) are not thought to be transmissible. I don't think there's even so much as a conspiracy theory about  that.

So stay home if you're sick, and stay home until you have recovered. That is a reasonable thing to ask of anyone in terms of protecting other people's health. People who are healthy are generally not drivers of illness pandemics, and should be allowed to live their lives normally.

JKR

Aristotleded24 wrote:

So stay home if you're sick, and stay home until you have recovered.

Unfortunately millions of people have not been able to recover. Anti-vaxxers don't seem to understand that. They also seem to be incredibly uncomfortable realizing that their ignorance, misinformation, and selfishness has led to the deaths of millions of people.

Edzell Edzell's picture

It's sad & frustrating to pose questions or post opinions and see responses that have no relevance to what was written; often setting off chains of posts getting further & further away from the subject raised. People just grabbing any excuse to ride their favorite hobby horse whether it fits or not.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Edzell wrote:

When/how do 'advise' & 'encourage' become 'coerce'?

 ..... "I'm taking the vaccine because I want to travel," that is coercion.

@Aristotle: No, that's just a statement of personal intention and motive; someone telling us what they're doing and why.

In your own use of  the word 'coercion' what do you actually mean? "I'm going to the cinema because I believe there's a really good film showing" - Would you call that coercion?

If someone uses clever, maybe insincere arguments - or even direct bribes - to persuade another person to do something they want, I would likely use the word coercion. Would you agree with that?

Edzell Edzell's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

 

So stay home if you're sick .....

I would if I was. What are you talking about?

josh

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Edzell wrote:

Aristotleded24 wrote:

"coerce people to take the vaccine"

When/how do 'advise' & 'encourage' become 'coerce'?

When there is serious discussion about people not being able to attend sporting events, concerts, education, shop in a store, travel, go to a restaurant, or just live their lives as free human beings, and when someone's primary motivation for taking the vaccine isn't "I've done the risk assessment and I think this is the best decision for my health" but rather, "I'm taking the vaccine because I want to travel," that is coercion.

So what?  There should be incentives for people to get vaccinated.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

I have been vaccinated. My second shot is due at the end of August. I didn'treally do it for me. I did so for the safety of others,especially my mother who I visit once a week. It would kill  me if I was responsible for someone's death.  That's incentive enough. I thgink anti vaxxers should be SUED if their ignorance lead to the illness or death of someone else.

Just my humble opinion as always.

Aristotleded24

This is crazy:

Quote:
he province will be offering a limited number of Pfizer doses to youth at the Leila supersite in Winnipeg beginning Wednesday.

The supersite will be giving walk-in Pfizer doses to youth between the ages of 12 and 17, from Wednesday, June 30 to Sunday, July 4. The province said there will be about 330 doses available each day.

"In anticipation of significant demand, individuals in line will be given a colour-coded ticket, which will identify a time slot later the same day when they will be able to get their vaccine," the province said in a vaccine news release on Monday.

Why the hell is there this urge to vaccinate adolescents, when they have a very low risk of having a bad outcome from the virus? What about parental consent? I really hope none of these teens who get the vaccine have heart problems, because if there were bad effects from the vaccine, especially if parents feel their consent was violated, that is not going to be good for maintaining trust in public health authorities.

JKR

It's wonderful to see Manitoba making significant progress combatting COVID-19!!

Pondering

They are not being forced to be vaccinated. Age of consent for medical procedures in Quebec is 14. Generally speaking in Canada consent is based on capacity so even a 12 year old can provide consent depending on the procedure.

I'm fairly certain the courts would deem getting vaccination that millions of people have had to be a decision within the capacity of teens. 

Concerning the heart issue it is treatable. So far I don't think anyone has died or had permanent damage. 

Being vaccinated, especially double vaccinated, reduces the change of catching covid, if you still catch covid it reduces the chance of being hospitalized and reduces the chance of transmission. It does not eliminate either. You can be double vaccinated and still die. You can be double vaccinated and still transmit the virus to other people. The Delta variant is hitting younger people and the vaccines are not as successful against it.

We are in a race against variants. The more carriers there are the more opportunity for mutations to be more viralent and more deadly. 

Edzell Edzell's picture

Excellent news if virus transmissibility is reduced by the vaccines. I thought the jury was still largely out on that one.

Pondering

In April, Public Health England reported the results of a large study of COVID-19 transmission involving more than 365,000 households with a mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated members.

It found immunisation with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the chance of onward virus transmission by 40-60%. This means that if someone became infected after being vaccinated, they were only around half as likely to pass their infection on to others compared to infected people who weren’t vaccinated.

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/mounting-evidence-suggests-covid-vacci...

The result is expected so these tests are confirmation tests not discovery tests. It is a logic outcome because the higher the virus load you receive the higher the chances are that you will be infected. Very much like sperm if there are only a few they are unlikely to be successful. Being vaccinated means that even if you are infected the virus load is light. It follows that you will shed less virus therefore people around you will receive less virus.  In contrast asymptomatic carriers that are not vaccinated can still carry a heavy load. 

Edzell Edzell's picture

Quote:

https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/mounting-evidence-suggests-covid-vacci...

The Israeli results are welcome & reassuring.

Aristotleded24

Edzell wrote:
Excellent news if virus transmissibility is reduced by the vaccines. I thought the jury was still largely out on that one.

The vaccines were released to the public on the grounds that they prevented severe symptoms. Some of the public literature appears to show vaccines being effective at stopping viral transmission as well.

Buddy Kat

Wondering what everyone thinks about the game changeing  "saNOtize " virus killer . Kills all virus's including covid. Made in BC and sold without prescription in pharmacies in  Isreal and New Zealand but not in Canada. Passed clincal trials in the UK . Note: any mention of it on a CBC comment board results in instant content disabled.

kropotkin1951

I had to look it up. It sounds like a great idea and hopefully it works as well as promised.

MegB

Sweet Jebus, here we go down the rabbit hole again. Yes, there have been monumental fuckups. Yes, there has been monumental stupidity and the politicization of disease. Yes, corporate capitalism has benefited enormously from the pandemic. But can we please use common sense here? Just wear the mask. Get vaccinated. Distance when possible. Just because things have opened up doesn't mean we should change our personal safety protocols. Just try not to kill yourselves or others. 

Also, mass vaccination experiences vary. When I got my second dose at a mass vaccination centre (first was in my GP's office in a clinic they created) it was a well-oiled machine. Everyone was friendly, helpful and incredibly efficient. The guy who gave me the jab was an anesthesiologist who came out of retirement to help out. Zero fuckery was involved. We're dealing human beings who are flawed, make mistakes, have agendas. That's just the reality we have to take into consideration, even with scientists and on the ground health care workers. Not the opinion of some blogger on a conspiracy theory site or an anti-vaxxer with a YouTube channel.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Fuckery is a noble sport, besides being the very cause of our existence. We shouldn't abuse its name.

Pondering

I wasn't impressed by my experience getting my second jab but I am very happy that I had it. 

Buddy Kat

The "SaNOtize"spray now available in Bahrain under the name "Enovid".

https://sanotize.com/enovid/

WOW reduces covid to below detectable levels..Journal of infection

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8117664/pdf/main.pdf

 

Rabble should scoup the MSM on this. They won't allow anything that isn't promotting pfizer jabs.

Currently being reviewed by health canada...but you have to wonder why they are dragging their knuckles on this gamechanger.

 

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