BC Cabinet Minister resigns over the HST

81 posts / 0 new
Last post
Pogo Pogo's picture

Okay but the bulk of the new revenue from the HST (new taxes that weren't there prior to the HST implementation) is coming from the tax of property sale earnings, almost by definition high income earners.

I agree with Kropotkin.  This is going to come back to haunt the NDP.

remind remind's picture

Then they will again be reaping what they have sown.

They either start listening a great deal more to women in the BCNDP, or they fuck off, as they destroyed the party once already with that male patriarchial BS. And the women I speak with all over the province are in no goddamn mood to put up with it.

We are sick to fucking death of the political games,  and jockeying for king of the castle, and want a woman Premier.

Mean Moe

remind wrote:

Then they will again be reaping what they have sown.

They either start listening a great deal more to women in the BCNDP, or they fuck off, as they destroyed the party once already with that male patriarchial BS. And the women I speak with all over the province are in no goddamn mood to put up with it.

We are sick to fucking death of the political games,  and jockeying for king of the castle, and want a woman Premier.

 

Nothing like some good old reverse misogony to show your extremism.  Is it equality you want, or revenge?

remind remind's picture

Oh for gawd's sake Moe, get your  thoughts together eh, as I would have to report you for personal attacks, unless I get an apology.

 

And I mean that seriously on all fronts.

RANGER

Politics101 wrote:

"You won't find many NDPers agreeing to raise taxes on those who can't afford them"

Didn't the NDP government in Nova Scotia just raise the HST by 2% recently and wouldn't it apply to everyone. 

 

 

I've never understood this logic, so the two NDP parties your refering to are the same?, as well as the circumstances? like the BC NDP from the mid 90's is the same as today's? did you know an NDP government in Saskatchewan repealed an HST?  do people in the maratimes step over the border to buy clothes and electronics? cause they will in B.C. and Ontario, this is political suicide plain and simple. The circumstances where an are completely different in the maritimes.   

RANGER

Hello:

Recently Blair Lekstrom took the brave step to represent the people of
his constituency. In doing so he saved his own political career.
Province wide he is being heralded as a hero. Will you do the same?

I have heard many misguided ideas that by staying the course and
sticking together you will preserve the BC Liberal party. Nothing could
be further from the truth. Even if Gordon Campbell steps down and a new
leader is chosen, so long as the HST exists the BC Liberal Party is
doomed in the next election. How can you stop this? By crossing the
floor and sitting as an independent. Why? Because a strong body of
dedicated volunteers are already preparing for Recall in the Fall.
Though you may not think this will work, many of you thought the same
thing about the Petition and look where we are now.

Make no mistake about this; each one of you Liberal MLAs is being
watched by your electorate to see whether or not you will abide by their
wishes and put a stop to the HST now, before it is implemented. By now
you should have come to the realization that the Fight HST movement is
for real and it will bring you down through recall if you don't do the
right thing NOW.

Sincerely,
Sally Allan
Sointula, B.C.

Maysie Maysie's picture

Mean Moe wrote:
 What men can't be shrill? How sexist of you.

Men are rarely described as shrill. I would venture to say men are never called shrill, except for remind calling you that to prove a point, effectively I might add.

Shrill is a sexist term used against women, usually women in some position of power. That's feminism 101 Moe.

Mean Moe wrote:
 Nothing like some good old reverse misogony to show your extremism.  Is it equality you want, or revenge?

There is no such thing as reverse misogyny. Feminism 101 again.

remind could run circles around you, Moe, but has chosen restraint, which I as a moderator greatly appreciate. Moe, you need to not engage/bait/taunt about feminist issues. Read some of the archived and stickies in the feminism forum.

This side discussion is also contributing to thread drift. Back to the topic please.

 

Caissa

thread drift/ Preston manning is shrill./end thread drift.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Caissa, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that that's not a helpful comment.

Caissa

No, I didn't, Catchfire. Actually I thought it was quite apt and to the point, even if it was thread drift.

Mean Moe

Maysie wrote:

Mean Moe wrote:
 What men can't be shrill? How sexist of you.

Men are rarely described as shrill. I would venture to say men are never called shrill, except for remind calling you that to prove a point, effectively I might add.

Shrill is a sexist term used against women, usually women in some position of power. That's feminism 101 Moe.

Mean Moe wrote:
 Nothing like some good old reverse misogony to show your extremism.  Is it equality you want, or revenge?

There is no such thing as reverse misogyny. Feminism 101 again.

remind could run circles around you, Moe, but has chosen restraint, which I as a moderator greatly appreciate. Moe, you need to not engage/bait/taunt about feminist issues. Read some of the archived and stickies in the feminism forum.

This side discussion is also contributing to thread drift. Back to the topic please.

 

All your statements may pass FEM 101 but fail horribly at LOGIC 100. They are so full of fallacies that this format doesn't provide the necessary forum to tear them apart.

So there is one set of rules for men, and another for women. That sounds sexist to me.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Mean Moe, these rules are the rules of babble, which you agreed to when you registered. They are not up for debate. So if you are unable to abide by them, you will have to find another forum. I hope that's clear enough.

Mean Moe

Catchfire wrote:

Mean Moe, these rules are the rules of babble, which you agreed to when you registered. They are not up for debate. So if you are unable to abide by them, you will have to find another forum. I hope that's clear enough.

The terms of reference never said that logic was suspended on Babble nor that shrill is a derogatory statement when applied to women but doesn't apply to men, nor that reverse misogyny doesn't exist.  If I am incorrect please refer to the where these statements of rules are situated.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Quote:
In defining itself as "progressive," rabble.ca embraces a pro-human rights, pro-feminist, anti-racist and pro-labour stance. Discussion which develops and expands progressive thought is encouraged and welcome. babble is NOT intended as a place where the basic and essential values of human rights, feminism, anti-racism, and labour rights are to be debated or refought.

Again, these are not up for debate. Shrill is a gendered pejorative and reverse sexism doesn't exist (reverse misogyny doesn't even make sense). These are part of the "first principles" to which the babble policy statement refers. Respect the mandate of this forum or take a hike. I trust that's clear enough.

Mean Moe

So Misandry is allowed?

oldgoat

Mean Moe, this thread is about the resignation of a BC cabinet minister.  It is not about wherever you're taking it.   If you want to discuss this I'm sure there are several still open threads in rabble reactions dealing with this sort of thing.  Feel free to find one if you insist.

 

Caissa, Maysie said rarely.  She did not say never.  Please let's stay on topic.

Caissa

I did acknowledge it as thread drift. And the fact that I could think of only one male politican who received that appelation underscores that it is rare indeed.

Back to threadtopic: I hope he joins another right-wing BC party to increase the odds of the BC NDP winning the next election.

Mean Moe

Ok gotcha!

Broad generalization of males is OK but not for females.

Gotta love the mandated hypocrisy. No wonder these ideas are se broadly accepted by general populace, or are they just stupid?

Pogo Pogo's picture

I hope you count to 20 before typing your next post.

Mean Moe

babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.

 

Unless you break the echo chamber rules???

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Mean Moe, you are being deliberately disruptive and disdainful of the values of this community. Clearly you need some time away from the keyboard. I'm giving you two days off.

Fidel

Politics101 wrote:

"You won't find many NDPers agreeing to raise taxes on those who can't afford them"

Didn't the NDP government in Nova Scotia just raise the HST by 2% recently and wouldn't it apply to everyone. 

And after decades of old line party corruption left Nova Scotia with one of the highest [url=http://blog.scott.tylers.info/index.php?/archives/49-Provincial-Debt-Tab... to GDP[/url] ratios, and second only to heavily indebted Newfoundland after too many years of political conservatism there,  what other choices do they have? Apparently NS-NDP are not influenced by the federal party or provincial counterparts. Iows, anything goes under the neoliberalorama in this Balkanized country.

The bottom line is, do residents of B.C. and Nova Scotia support higher taxes through HST? Both governments will have to face the music come election time either way.  And some percentage of eligible voters will vote on the overall effect. That's the way it will play out under the neoliberalorama.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Many people interviewed seem to be at least as, if not more than, pissed at the timing of the announcement compared to the tax itself.  Not even their own supporters believe the lie that they hadn't even thought about it prior to the election.  That is what Blair resigned over and while he is a right wing jerk he understands the will of the people.  If I am not mistaken he says he agrees with the tax and make no mistake he will be at the heart of the new populist party that is being built as we type.  

I think that if this had been announced in the same manner as in Ontario, with a sitting government talking about it and then introducing it in session, there would be no massive outcry.

No one likes getting taken by con men and once people see you as a con your gone.  Just ask the Zalm.  Just like after the unmasking of the Zalm I am sure some new populist leader will arise to promise open government, accountability and electoral reform. 

Fidel

Whatever oppressive tax scheme is hatched in Ottawa by ReformaTories, provincial Liberals are generally enthusiastic about it. They think exactly alike in a lot of ways.

spycy

Does anyone know how many signatures for the anti hst are in Gordon Campbell's riding?

RANGER

Tuesday June 22, 2010

By Bill Tieleman

"We must make some difficult choices. Do we increase income taxes, increase the provincial sales tax, or cut programs and services?"

- Ex-B.C. Liberal MLA Blair Lekstrom, after quitting over the HST

B.C. Liberal MLAs are asking you the wrong question about the 12 per cent Harmonized Sales Tax to be imposed July 1 -- because they want you to give the wrong answer.

The real question on killing the HST isn't about cutting services or raising the provincial sales tax.

The real HST question Premier Gordon Campbell fears is this: "Do you want to personally pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars in new taxes every year to subsidize big business?"

It's that simple.

And it's why the Fight HST citizens Initiative petition campaign has gathered nearly 700,000 signatures in less than 90 days -- because the answer is clear: NO!

All hell won't break loose

But Campbell wants voters to answer a very different and highly misleading question, because he wants you to give the wrong answer and begrudgingly accept the HST.

Don't be fooled.

Campbell wants you to worry that if B.C. rejects the HST and returns the $1.6 billion one-time-only grant from the federal Conservative government to "implement" the tax, all hell will break loose.

Hospital cuts, school cuts, public services slashed and taxes will have to go up, too, they want you to believe. What a disaster. We'd better keep the HST!

What garbage.

The reality is that this B.C. Liberal government is spending many times that $1.6 billion on several projects that won't even benefit most British Columbians and will be paid for over many years.

The new Port Mann Bridge alone is going to cost $3.3 billion -- double the federal HST bribe money.

The Canada Line rapid transit project cost

$2 billion, the Golden Ears Bridge, $800 million, the Trade and Convention Centre, $883 million -- including a $388 million cost overrun -- and B.C. Place's new roof will run a minimum $458 million.

And then there's a little item called the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics -- with a price tag B.C.'s auditor general estimated at a minimum of $2.5 billion and that some critics say cost $6 billion or more.

And for non-Metro Vancouver residents -- did you happen to notice that none of the B.C. Liberals favourite big ticket items are coming to your town? But you will get to enjoy the HST every day.

A very small bribe

To put the $1.6 billion HST grant amount in perspective, it is just one per cent of British Columbia's total budget expenditures over four years - and only four per cent of one year's roughly $40 billion budget.

It's an amount that can be dealt with sensibly over the budget cycle in a number of ways without cutting needed services.

And by eliminating the HST, B.C.'s recovering economy wouldn't be hurt by the negative effects of the extra seven per cent tax on so many consumer goods and services, meaning higher government revenues are likely.

But keeping the HST means the ongoing transfer of taxes onto consumers from big business amounts to $1.9 billion each and every year -- over four years ordinary British Columbians will have to fork out an extra $7.6 billion from their own pockets in extra HST costs.

And while paying 7 per cent more for restaurant food, domestic airline tickets, haircuts, home repairs, basic cable, realtor fees and hundreds of other items, they won't get one thin dime more from the HST for new healthcare, education or public services.

Perhaps the only thing we will get is the sincere thanks of large corporations whose costs will drop by $1.9 billion.

Pass on the savings? Not likely

But if you think they will reduce prices on consumer goods you purchase by an equivalent amount to balance that, think again.

B.C. companies don't make many of the products we consume here -- so even if they did reduce their prices, it wouldn't balance the increased costs of the HST.

Think about the really large corporations who will benefit -- Alcan, Canfor or Teck Cominco, for example, and then ask yourself -- how many rolls of aluminum foil, two by fours or coal and copper will you use this year?

Even if those companies reduce their prices thanks to the HST -- a very big "if" indeed -- how will individual British Columbians possibly benefit when the products they purchase aren't made here?

The HST supporters also argue that by reducing business costs through shifting the tax burden to consumers, the overall economy will improve, jobs will be created and more money spent in B.C. -- the trickledown theory in other words.

This is about democracy

Even assuming -- again a huge risk -- that this is actually true, did you get a vote on whether or not to personally finance this enormous corporate subsidy expenditure?

Errr, no.

In fact, the B.C. Liberals in the 2009 election expressly rejected the idea they would introduce the HST when pressed by both the restaurant and home building industry associations.

And previous B.C. Liberal cabinet ministers like Carole Taylor and Rick Thorpe even warned about the negative effects an HST would have on the economy.

So remember the facts when a glad-handing premier and his MLAs make the rounds this summer trying to convince you that paying $1.9 billion every year in new HST costs for the rest of your life is worth getting $1.6 billion just once.

RANGER

double post

Noah_Scape

I have an idea - scrap the HST plans and raise the needed revenue by taxing the hell out of the wealthy AND THEN SEE IF THEY CAN GET MORE SIGNATURES ON A PETITION than the anti-HST petition did.

Let the people rule!!

leftypopulist

Fidel wrote:

Whatever oppressive tax scheme is hatched in Ottawa by ReformaTories, provincial Liberals are generally enthusiastic about it. They think exactly alike in a lot of ways.

Economically 90% capitalist / 10% pseudo-socialist in my view. But Gordo's deception is at a level of saturation unseen or unheard. The dial is at 11. The stubborn, steadfast & strong level is also in the red.

His goal is for BC to have the lowest provincial income taxes in Canada, but you can quite EASILY offer tax relief for the poor and lower middle class while cranking up the rate progressively for the megarich, and you don't have to cut and crash education and health care to the extreme as he has repeatedly. His education ministry closed more schools yet again today AFAIK. It has become insane Neoliberal rampaging with wreckless disregard for the effects.

I haven't witnessed such cold, calculating, unresponsive ruthlessness since Paul Martin went on his cutting spree.

leftypopulist

So Gordo & clan cut arts funding, health care & education extensively, lie about not bringing in the HST and then swiftly bring it in, then cut health care & education some more and now they've just put out a big PR scam about guaranteeing everyone their own doctor by 2015.

Ruthless, Neoliberal maniacs. Entirely untrustworthy with every single thing they say & do.

Pages