H1N1 panic and stampede at the vaccination centers?

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Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Yeah, I think you're right - and the queue jumpers really irritate me.  I heard a rumour that kids may be getting vaccinated at school, with consent.  I need to look into that.  It would make my life simpler, anyway.

remind remind's picture

From the CBC article:

Quote:
Do we need reminding that in 2005 the World Health Organization predicted that up to 150 million people might die from Avian flu? The eventual death toll was 262 people.

SARS death cohorts were all over the map, based upon pollution amounts as well.

Quote:
At the end of the 2003 epidemic, 8098 possible cases and 744 deaths were reported to WHO (4).

Very interesting paper on SARS

 

Neither SARS, nor the Avian flu, even came close to the amounts of people who die each year from the "normal" seasonal flu.

 

Has anyone even thought about what  the normal seasonal flu means in actual medical reality?

 

Brian can you explain to me, what a virus is, and what it does?

Bubbles

Seems to me that this vaccination is a bit later. My youngerst came down with a fever, joint and muscle pains on sunday. Since there seems to be a ninety percent probability that is is the H1M1 I expece the rest of the family to have it soon also. How long is the incubation period? A neighbour kid and her father were down with fever  already two weeks ago. The kid got better in a few days but the father was down for over a week, feeling very miserable. Another family here claims to all have had fever starting about ten days ago. All recovered in three to five days. Still coughing a bit. My other kid, who went to school today reported that not as many kids were missing today.

I read somewhere that this flu will probably come in several waves. What is the reason for that?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

That pandemic flus come in waves is an observed pattern.  I'm not sure why. 

I may have had H1N1 in June, but managed not to pass it on to anybody.  I isolated myself, made my hubby clean surfaces wherever I had been with a spray bottle that had water with some bleach in it, used a ton of tissues and no hugs and kisses for anybody for a week.   Lots of hand-washing and alcohol-based hand sanitizer (non-alcohol sanitizer doesn't work on viruses, I've been told.)

remind remind's picture

http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/Microsites/NiemanGuideToCoveringPandemicFl...

 

Though it should go further and explain to people what a virus is.

Aristotleded24

Brian White wrote:

Well, If you concider that the normal flu doesn't normally kill young people,  and if you value an old life the same as a young life perhaps the normal flu is worse. But how do you compare a young life taken to an old life taken?  This flu has killed healthy  kids of 12 and 14.  This flu kills women in their 20's and 30's.

These deaths are tragic for sure. But we've all heard anecdotally about young, healthy people who all of a sudden drop dead for no apparent reason, or who die suddenly after contracting an illness that seems mild at first. It's all tragic. The only difference now is that the media is paying disproportionately more attention to the healthy people who are dying from H1N1. Based on the numbers I've seen, H1N1 has a fatality rate of less than 1 percent (and I'm willing to bet that the actual death rate is lower because some people would get H1N1, tough it out and recover without it making the official stats) and it's such a small proportion of the population that is being infected right now that I don't think the level of panic is warranted. If public health officials start advising people to cancel gatherings (right now the message is to keep living as normal) then maybe it's something. Other than that, you just have to move on and enjoy life, otherwise you'll be miserable worrying about everything.

Tigana Tigana's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

If public health officials start advising people to cancel gatherings (right now the message is to keep living as normal) then maybe it's something. Other than that, you just have to move on and enjoy life, otherwise you'll be miserable worrying about everything.

Sounds good to me. 

Brian White

The thing is it is not anactotal.

They have the statistics at the link I quoted above. They knew beforehand who it would hit worse. 

There is quite a difference between saying "it is all tragic but fuck them" and trying to drop the death rate from say 3% to 1% among young people.  The panic is because some young healthy kids died a couple of days after getting sick.

But the authorities knew this would happen.  They knew kids would die months ago. Their task is to vaccinate so that fewer kids die. Thats what they are doing for the most part. In the absence of vaccination, a lot more kids will die.  I find that there are a lot of heartless bastards on this board and among the queues for vaccine.  Imagine remind on the titanic.  They say "women and children first"  and she grabs her kids off the liferaft and starts fistfighting to get back on the sinking ship. Anything to win an arguement?

How about reading the links for a change?  I was in hospital with blood filling my lungs 2 weeks ago.  That is how the pandemic flu kills people, by the way. The normal flu does not kill like that.

It was no fun. You really want kids to needlessly die like that?

Brian?

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Brian White wrote:

Well, If you concider that the normal flu doesn't normally kill young people,  and if you value an old life the same as a young life perhaps the normal flu is worse. But how do you compare a young life taken to an old life taken?  This flu has killed healthy  kids of 12 and 14.  This flu kills women in their 20's and 30's.

These deaths are tragic for sure. But we've all heard anecdotally about young, healthy people who all of a sudden drop dead for no apparent reason, or who die suddenly after contracting an illness that seems mild at first. It's all tragic. The only difference now is that the media is paying disproportionately more attention to the healthy people who are dying from H1N1.

Michelle

Brian White wrote:

I find that there are a lot of heartless bastards on this board and among the queues for vaccine.  Imagine remind on the titanic.  They say "women and children first"  and she grabs her kids off the liferaft and starts fistfighting to get back on the sinking ship. Anything to win an arguement?

I'm pretty sure you already know why I'm quoting this.  Personal attack, not allowed.  Cut it out.

Brian White

Michelle, you did read #36 above, I presume?  In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with vaccinating young people, and people at greatest risk due to medical conditions and first nations against h1n1 first if they are the people most likely to die from it.

But (without reading the wikipedia documetation about the pandemic), remind and other accuse me of ageism, and "how  logans run" and put up cartoons from southpark..   If you ever saw logans run, it is about a society where they kill everyone as soon as they reach their 30th birrthday or some similarly young age.

If that little comment was not a personal attack, what is?  Well, if 2 people are swept out to see, a guy of 60 and a boy of 6, I make no excuces for trying to save the 6 year old first.

Older people are PROVEN to be less at risk of serious illness if they get pandemic flu, thats why they are lower priority right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic  shows th worldwide status

http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/news_releases_2009-2013/2009HSERV0001-000004.htm is the official bc status report.

Also of interest to those who prefer to dismiss the pandemic:

"Some provinces are not updating their case counts any longer (NLU) or adopted a surveillance strategy (SV), by which not all suspected cases will be tested any more. Thus the numbers do not reflect the numbers of infections and they cannot be compared with each other." (The united kingdom does not test anymore either).  

When i started this thread, it was more about putting pressure on the authoritys to do the right thing. (Giving the vaccine to the groups most at risk first, and keeping it out of private clinics) than what it morphed into.  I did not start the personal attacks.

 

Sineed

Finally got round to reading the Alan Cassels interview.  I like him; I have his book, Selling Sickness.  Coupla quibbles:

When he says that Australian experience was that the pH1N1 was not serious, I'd say, Australian winters are not the same as Canadian winters.  Our flu season peaks in Feb.

When he says this:

Quote:
To those who say that studying the sacred flu shot with randomized, placebo-controlled trials is unethical, I say that if such a trial were planned, I'd be first in line to roll up my sleeve.

Basically it's not ethical to conduct randomized controlled trials with flu shots, withholding vaccine from vulnerable groups to see if they get sicker without it.  Determining the effectiveness of flu vaccines is complicated, but the data is not non-existent just because it's not from a randomized controlled trial.

Randomized controlled trials are the gold standard of proving causation.  We all like them a lot.  But the cigarette companies said for years that nobody can "prove" cigarettes cause cancer because it was all observational data.

Okay; I have to get back to work now.

Somebody mentioned the flu is more dangerous in women.  I downloaded that study; I'll share it when I get a minute.

jas

What if they had a pandemic and nobody came??

Tigana Tigana's picture

jas wrote:

What if they had a pandemic and nobody came??

Cool

remind remind's picture

So more have already died then from the vaccination they received, than have from the flu itself, on a ratio basis.

Brian White

Why do you link to random blogs? And if you read the blog, he talks utter rubbish."Multiplying the incidence rate by the case fatality rate suggests that if you are generally well, the odds of dying of swine flu are less than 1 in a million" So who is "generally well"?  15 have died in BC from a population of 4 million (3 in the last 7 days)  so I guess very few of us are "generally well".

Tigana wrote:

http://healthspanlife.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/swine-flu-damage-update-1...

From the page:

'If 5 deaths there soon after the swine flu vaccine, out of a million people vaccinated the past 17 days,  are co-incidental - a vaccine-related death rate of 1:200  000. – one can equally argue that 4 deaths with the swine flu in a month in a population of 9.2 million is not a causal relationship but co-incidence of death from other causes and not from the passing mild swine flu.

....

Trumpeting “pandemic” is a great distraction for governments, presidents and agencies  beset with insoluble political and corruption scandals as are so many.'

 

Language a bit wonky, but good points. Don't panic.

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

remind wrote:

So more have already died then from the vaccination they received, than have from the flu itself, on a ratio basis.

Thanks, Brian, the site also links to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_by_country

Worth looking at closely. Those are our dollars, after all.

How much did the flu campaign cost so far, anyway?

 

Brian White

I see in Alberta, the Flames hockey stars, their coaches and staff, jumped past the 5 year olds, the athsmatics, those with blood disorders, and succeptable first nations to grab early vaccinations.  Well done!  Anything to keep healthy and beat the rest of the teams, I guess.

So what happens if a few kids die of H1N1 in Alberta in the next couple of weeks?

Tigana Tigana's picture

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/281228

 

"There are reports from Sweden of possible deaths linked to the H1N1 vaccine; unconfirmed and unwelcome news which will surely complicate the very busy flu season that has descended on most of the northern hemisphere."
....
A healthy immune system will give you the best chance to stay well. 
...
Hockey stars get vaxx before others do? Sounds elitist to me. 

 

NDPP

There's lots of crazy stuff on H1N1 floating around out there. Here's some more:

The Intentional Murder of Native People for Profit:

http://margotbworldnews.com/archives/2009/Nov/Nov1/native.html

Tigana Tigana's picture

Brian writes,

'15 have died in BC from a population of 4 million (3 in the last 7 days)  so I guess very few of us are "generally well".'

 

I think that means one in about every quarter million are ill with the flu, which means it is sort of a non-event. 

Brian White

Remind quoted from some blog that you quoted from to get her figures.  15 died from the flu in BC vconfirmed so far.  I did not hear about 15 deaths from the vaccine, did you?  With a million people getting vaccinated in the next month, who is expecting 40 or 50 deaths from the vaccine?

I spent 4 days in hospital 2 weeks ago with pneumonia.  Now I quote from the bc health authoritys "Since Oct. 27, there have been 162 new severe cases of H1N1 identified in B.C., with three new deaths"

So lets be gentle and assume 4 days in hospital per person (like me). 162 by 4 is 648 hospital days in the last week..  Now, lets so the math, 648 hospital days versus 162 shots of vaccine.  

Which is cheaper?

Brian

Tigana wrote:

remind wrote:

So more have already died then from the vaccination they received, than have from the flu itself, on a ratio basis.

Thanks, Brian, the site also links to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_by_country

Worth looking at closely. Those are our dollars, after all.

How much did the flu campaign cost so far, anyway?

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

There's lots of crazy stuff on H1N1 floating around out there. Here's some more:

The Intentional Murder of Native People for Profit:

http://margotbworldnews.com/archives/2009/Nov/Nov1/native.html

 

Kevin would do better in this case focus on the marketing of psychoactive drugs to Natves, Orientals and others who lack the enzymes to process them. However, read biology documents from almost any defense department in the developed world and you will find discussions of racial targeting through disease as a warfare technique. 

 

Brian White

I thought you got orders from the moderators to stop posting irrelevent stuff in the threads?

Tigana wrote:

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

There's lots of crazy stuff on H1N1 floating around out there. Here's some more:

The Intentional Murder of Native People for Profit:

http://margotbworldnews.com/archives/2009/Nov/Nov1/native.html

 

Kevin would do better in this case focus on the marketing of psychoactive drugs to Natves, Orientals and others who lack the enzymes to process them. However, read biology documents from almost any defense department in the developed world and you wlll find racial targeting through disease as a warfare technique discussed.

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

In what way is NDPP's post irrelevant to the topic of H1N1 panic?

Anyway, looking forward to finding out how much this flu prep cost the taxpayer. Thank you for hosting the thread, Brian. 

Brian White

Well for starters, I have not got independent confirmation "that over a hundred people are sick from tamiflu vaccination and the sickness is spreading".

So i checked you words and someone spammed this story across canada in SEPTEMBER with the same wording in hundreds of posts!   And it went viral. And guess what, if you read more, there were actually only 4 or 6 cases of sick people. And who knows what caused those cases? Might be just random sick people.

Why not check with the people in Ahousaht now?  See how many are still sick or how many died since the 22nd of september when the story first got spammed across the net?

http://www.rabble.ca/comment/1066917/What-posted-begin   is the denouncing of the stuff on babble itself.

I am not sure why they let you get away with these repeat offences.

Tigana wrote:

Brian White wrote:

I thought you got orders from the moderators to stop posting irrelevent stuff in the threads?

Tigana wrote:

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

There's lots of crazy stuff on H1N1 floating around out there. Here's some more:

The Intentional Murder of Native People for Profit:

http://margotbworldnews.com/archives/2009/Nov/Nov1/native.html

 

Kevin would do better in this case focus on the marketing of psychoactive drugs to Natves, Orientals and others who lack the enzymes to process them. However, read biology documents from almost any defense department in the developed world and you wlll find racial targeting through disease as a warfare technique discussed.

 

In what way is NDPP's post irrelevant to the topic of H1N1 panic?

ReeferMadness

It seemed a few weeks ago more than half the population wanted nothing to do with the vaccine, now there are stampedes?  Is the shortage increasing demand?

I'm still torn over whether it's a good idea for my kids and me.  The risks of people without serious underlying health conditions dying from H1N1 are somewhere between getting struck by lightning and falling in the bathtub.  As far as the vaccine goes, they keep on saying "safe and effective" but what does that really mean? 

The vaccine contains thimerasol, which is about 49% mercury.  They say that there is less mercury in the vaccine than in a can of tuna.  I'm sure that's true but when's the last time you had a can of tuna injected directly into your muscle?  There's also squalene, which has some controversy associated with it.  There's also the small risk of Guillaine Barre Syndrome.

The bottom line is that no medical intervention is 100% safe.  It would sure be nice if medical science were advanced to the point where we really understood how the body worked.

Choose wisely.

Tigana Tigana's picture

Brian White wrote:

I read that H1N1 is part bird flu, part pig flu and part human flu and only very recently jumped to humans from pigs.

Something's going to kill us some day, Brian, but it probably won't be this flu.

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

Brian White wrote:

But (without reading the wikipedia documetation about the pandemic), remind and other accuse me of ageism, and "how  logans run" and put up cartoons from southpark..   If you ever saw logans run, it is about a society where they kill everyone as soon as they reach their 30th birrthday or some similarly young age.

Regarding the South Park cartoon I posted - it was not directed at you, Brian, but at the whole dam panic, and I am sorry that it hurt your feelings. Image deleted.

 

 

 

 

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

http://graphjam.com/2009/05/06/song-chart-memes-people-killed/

Image of Pie Chart - unsupported by figures, but it does put a problem into focus. 

"People killed this month" - comparison of malaria mortality and swine flu deaths

Canada does not have a significant malaria problem, but it certainly has  a huge TB problem.

Effectively, it is being ignored, But flu? PANIC!!!!

Tigana Tigana's picture

http://healthspanlife.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/swine-flu-damage-update-1...

From the page:

'If 5 deaths there soon after the swine flu vaccine, out of a million people vaccinated the past 17 days,  are co-incidental - a vaccine-related death rate of 1:200  000. – one can equally argue that 4 deaths with the swine flu in a month in a population of 9.2 million is not a causal relationship but co-incidence of death from other causes and not from the passing mild swine flu.

....

Trumpeting “pandemic” is a great distraction for governments, presidents and agencies  beset with insoluble political and corruption scandals as are so many.'

 

Language a bit wonky, but good points: Don't panic

Note to Brian: I like the ideas, and would like to explore further.

The link gives credit where it is due.

ennir

Tigana, please try to remember that unless someone actually dies within seconds of receiving the vaccination there is no evidence to link their death to the vaccination, it could be many other things and we would not want to alarm people.

Seriously, LOL.

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

Brian White wrote:

Well for starters, I have not got independent confirmation "that over a hundred people are sick from tamiflu vaccination and the sickness is spreading".

So i checked you words and someone spammed this story across canada in SEPTEMBER with the same wording in hundreds of posts!   And it went viral. And guess what, if you read more, there were actually only 4 or 6 cases of sick people. And who knows what caused those cases? Might be just random sick people.

Why not check with the people in Ahousaht now?  See how many are still sick or how many died since the 22nd of september when the story first got spammed across the net?

http://www.rabble.ca/comment/1066917/What-posted-begin   is the denouncing of the stuff on babble itself.

I thought you got orders from the moderators to stop posting irrelevent stuff in the threads?

Brian, I thought his thread is about flu panic  - and if that is Annett's article, it is certainly provocative.

The Auditor General weighs in on Canada's lack of preparedness:

http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_200911_01_e_33202.html

That's something to panic about.

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

Smile

Thanks, ennir.

Brian White

It would be real nice if the conspiracy theorists left the thread.  The thread is about how the powers that be abandoned the people who were supposed to get the vaccine first and alllowed a free for all.

Tigana has reposted stuff that has already been exposed as lies a month ago. And on this thread it got quoted as if it were truth. 

So now if first nations people read his stuff, they are less likely to take the vaccine.

Sorry boys, thats criminal misinformation.

First nations are among the people most likely to get serious complicantions and among the people most likely to DIE from H1N1 and our first death on van island was I think a first nations lady.  

I would ask the moderators to take a look at your links, and ban you for spreading misinformation about very dangerous health issues.

Misinformation can kill. 

It is not a game, you should go get your jollys elsewhere.

 

remind remind's picture

whom are you speaking about Brian?

 

The information I posted is indeed completely accurate.

 

But I agree it is not a game, people for the most part, do not understand how their body works.

Politics101

Thanks Remind for that post about viruses and how the body works - it is a lot more informative than what some of the other are posting here.

 

 

Brian White

Remind forgot to mention that a large part of being sick from flu is due to the body disposing of dead cells that the virus has killed. 

  In the case of the pandemic virus it often kills cells deep in the lungs that the normal flu does not harm. (She did not mention that either). And she speeded up the mutation of the virus in her mind to suggest that vaccination was useless. Here is something to concider. If you get vaccinated, and the vaccine prevents you from getting sick, it also prevents the virus from using your body to produce a mutation, doesn't it?  I believe the biggest danger for mutation is if you get normal flu and swine flu at the same time.  Thats when the viruses can mutually attack the same cell at the same time and accidently mix their dna.   Note that combining 2 flu viruses is the big danger.  The mutations in the average human victim are relatively minor.

Politics101 wrote:

Thanks Remind for that post about viruses and how the body works - it is a lot more informative than what some of the other are posting here.

 

 

Tigana Tigana's picture

Brian, in post #16 you wrote

"I read that H1N1 is part bird flu, part pig flu and part human flu and only very recently jumped to humans from pigs."

Is that misinformation? Is that a conspiracy theory? Or is it just panic?

 

And thanks, remind, for an informative and enjoyable introduction to viruses. 

Viruses..."Life, Jim, but not as we know it."

Brian White

No, it is available on wikipedia.  Wikipedia is constantly reviewed and there is editoral rieview too.  (That is how it differs from your links)

You seem more interested in creating panic and creating doubt than in informing people.

Would that be a correct assumption?

Spreading old discredited links suggesting that the new vaccine will kill first nations is contemptable in my opinion. And you made no effort to correct your mistakes.

Probably for genetic reasons and other secondary reasons, first nations are much more likely to die from this flu than white people.

That is already a matter of public record.  Serious illness and death is visiting FN much more than others with this new flu.

Fearmongering about the vaccine might  cause many poor fn people to refuse the vaccine.

Correct?

So if you are successful in your misinformatinon campaign,

what happens? 

Are you TRYING to get people killed?

Seems that way to me.

Brian

 

Tigana wrote:

Brian, in post #16 you wrote

"I read that H1N1 is part bird flu, part pig flu and part human flu and only very recently jumped to humans from pigs."

Is that disinformation? Is that a conspiracy theory? Or is it just panic?

 

And thanks, remind, for an informative and enjoyable introduction to viruses. 

Viruses..."Life, Jim, but not as we know it."

Tigana Tigana's picture

Post flagged, for same reason as attack on remind.

Also, Arnett post was by NDPP. 

 

 

Brian White

Your garbage was completely discredited in babble over a month ago.  How DARE you repost it. Here is the text of the discrediting post seeing as you are unwilling to click on the link that I gave earlier.

You are knowingly spreading lies in this thread. In this instance lies can kill people.

Tigana wrote:

Post flagged, for same reason as attack on remind.

Also, Arnett post was by NDPP. /quote]

September 29, 2009 - 8:36pm
#1

What is posted to begin this thread is a revised version of what Annett first sent out. This is what he said at first:

> Last week, many of the aboriginal people in the remote west coast village of Ahousaht
> were innoculated with the tamiflu vaccine.

Note: there is no such thing as a "Tamiflu vaccine"

> Today, over a hundred of them are sick, and the sickness is spreading. In the same
> week, body bags were sent to similarly remote native reserves in northern Manitoba
> that have also received the tamiflu vaccine.

Again, there is no such thing as a "Tamiflu vaccine".

> On the face of things, it appears that flu vaccinations are causing a sickness that is
> being deliberately aimed at aboriginal people across Canada, and this sickness will
> be fatal: [...]

He went on to write:

> So it's small wonder that these reserves are the places being targeted first
> to be injected with untested, unsafe and potentially lethal flu vaccines.

Annett was tapping into anti-vaccine hysteria (an unfortunate phenomenon that is drowning out any reasonable discussion of potential problems with the H1N1 vaccine) and the terrible history of genocide against indigenous peoples. Unfortunately, what he's doing in this case is whipping up hysteria about something that *never even happened*. Not only is there no such thing as a "Tamiflu vaccine", There was no H1N1 vaccination in Ahousaht - something even Annett appears to acknowledge at this point. There was routine treatment of flu with Tamiflu.

When Annett was roundly criticized for telling people that aboriginal people were being murdered by the administration of a vaccine that *doesn't even exist*, he just revised his story - suddenly it was Tamiflu (a medicine that bears no similarity to a vaccine of any sort) that might be making people sick. Or maybe it was another antiviral. Or maybe it was a regular seasonal flu shot. He should have had the courage and principle to retract what he had said, but he did not.

Drawing on the perfectly reasonable fears of indigenous people that they might be targeted for testing of unsafe new drugs, playing into the hands of anti-vaccine wingnuts, his article has circulated all over the internet. Because he does not have the principle to retract what he said, he is actually making the problem worse: he is now telling people that not only should they be afraid of the H1N1 vaccine; they should be afraid of regular flu vaccines, and about the standard, effective first-line treatment for flu (Tamiflu).  Many people could die because of this.

What Annett is doing is bad reporting, bad science, and bad politics. It is SUPREMELY irresponsible. I am absolutely furious about this - and my fury comes from my solidarity with indigenous people in their struggles and with full acknowledgement of the ongoing genocide of indigenous people in Canada.

Michelle

Brian, chill out.  If you think someone's wrong, refute them, don't attack them and tell them to leave or demand that moderators ban them.  People who read babble are smart enough to read the posts and decide for themselves.

Stop attacking people.

remind remind's picture

Brian, you need to slow down, as it was not tigana that posted  a link to Arnett's words, it was NDPP. tigana reposted nothing here.

 

remind remind's picture

oh cross posted with michelle

Brian White

O, ok, guess the logans run jibe was before your time. 

Yes indeed this is an informative thread.

Refute refute refute.

Misinformation overload.  I cannot handle it without help.

Remind does a whole Virus explanation without even mentioning that they kill cells!

It is indeed time to quit.

Michelle wrote:

Brian, chill out.  If you think someone's wrong, refute them, don't attack them and tell them to leave or demand that moderators ban them.  People who read babble are smart enough to read the posts and decide for themselves.

Stop attacking people.

kropotkin1951

Thank you Brian for reiterating the very profound message we are being bombarded with in the media.  BE AFRAID BE VERY AFRAID 

And while your being afraid don't bother looking at what the elite is doing to our country under the guise of an economic crisis.  Many more people will die in Canada because of the gutting of our programs that is not being debated or reported than will ever die from this flu.  Yup the flu kills people but so do many things. This is a Damn Panic not a Pandemic and serendipitously it has driven the real stories out of the media coverage.  Smoke and mirrors is a wonderful thing to behold.

remind remind's picture

Quote:
It would sure be nice if medical science were advanced to the point where we really understood how the body worked.

 

They do......know how viruses work, and why they can't make a vaccine to combat viruses, per se.

Warning simplified version of what happens to follow:

 

Viruses are RNA or DNA in nature, and they have somehow been split from the organism, plant, or human from which their DNA/RNA sequencing was derived.

 

These split off RNA/DNA viruses travel about, going from person to person.

 

Invading organisms  enter into a person's body, by breaks in the skin, through the gut, or muscous membranes.

Once in the  body it settles down in the nucleus of  a new host body's cell in order to reproduce itself, as that is the only way it can reproduce itself.

 

To do so, it takes the DNA sequencing of the new host cell's nucleus to replicate itself, thereby becoming a new virus, with only some of the old  genetic markings left.

 

Meanwhile, the host body's T cells kick into action to kill the antigen, aka people get sick. Getting sick  signifies the bodies response to making antibodies, or doing whatever it takes to try to get rid of the invader.

 

Now that the person is sick, they can spead the newly cell divided virus to another person, where it does the same thing again, and becomes a newer version of the virus yet again.

timebandit,  for example did the best thing possible. She isolated herself and so there is  high probably no  timebandit H1N1 viruses  are floating about. That her partner or children did not get it, is a testimony to effective containment of a timebandit strain.

 

As many people as it comes in contact with, is as many variations  that it has. And as many people as there are, is how many possible variations that there can be.

 

So, what the drug companies do is pick one strain of the virus and make a vaccine. But that one strain of it is already long gone, as it will have passed through many people, changing its parameters each time it does.

 

Literally for a viral vaccine to be doing its job it would have to be constantly tweeked to have the new antigens (new genetic markers in DNA sequencing from someone else) present for your body to produce antibodies against.

 

And that is what the difference is from one flu shot to another. They tweek it to one of the newer versions that has come about by passing through new hosts.

 

The whole excerise is pretty pointless actually, IMV, as unless you have come in contact with the first strain of it,  before it passed through   several hundred people, your produced antibodies, from the antigen shot, will not be effective, at all with the newer version. And you will get the flu even if you have had a shot.

 

Sure it has some pathnogenic virus characteristics, but it contains new genetic markers, that your T cells would recognize as something  different, and thus create different antibodies  and approaches for it.

 

But remember, if your T cells are busy making antibodies  for something else, or several  infectious disease elses actually, there comes a point where it is too taxed to make sufficient, to carry out a war,  for another invasion of something else. The body's immune system  works through apoptosis or cell termination when the nucleus of the cell is too infected.

 

Think about your immune system as a  electrical breaker box, the more circuits you overload, the more possible it becomes for your house to burn down from electrical fire.

 

ETD to add links that at least 1 person may have found helpful

Brian White

I didn't actually.  The be afraid people are the ones telling fn not to get vaccinated.  I was telling people not to let the fuckers in charge steal the vaccine for private sale or to let healthy people jump queue.  My message was to be fair and let the people in most danger get vaccinated first.

Brian

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Thank you Brian for reiterating the very profound message we are being bombarded with in the media.  BE AFRAID BE VERY AFRAID 

And while your being afraid don't bother looking at what the elite is doing to our country under the guise of an economic crisis.  Many more people will die in Canada because of the gutting of our programs that is not being debated or reported than will ever die from this flu.  Yup the flu kills people but so do many things. This is a Damn Panic not a Pandemic and serendipitously it has driven the real stories out of the media coverage.  Smoke and mirrors is a wonderful thing to behold.

remind remind's picture

Brian White wrote:
Remind does a whole Virus explanation without even mentioning that they kill cells!

Brian,  you are correct I should have provided links for those who were not aware, like yourself, of what antibodies do, to antigens, and what antigens do to the body, when the body is at war with the invaders.

 

To me it is for common knowlege that antibodies kill antigens/invaders, if they can, or the antigens will kill/damage the cell or  make new cell types that are malignant.

 

...thought most people here would understand the antibody antigen relationship as being a war where cells/organisms die within the body.

 

.So, have rectified  my error and added links so people can see the whole process that I simplified and said I was simplifying.

 

Brian White

Remind, I did applied biology, your sarchasm is misplaced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus

"Viruses are released from the host cell by lysis—a process that kills the cell by bursting its membrane", you did not mention this. It is part of the reproduction cycle for many viruses. They have no need for the body's defences to help them do this.  More important info that you ignored.

(You are not supposed to remove vital parts of the story.)

Effects on the host cell

The range of structural and biochemical effects that viruses have on the host cell is extensive.[86] These are called cytopathic effects.[87] Most virus infections eventually result in the death of the host cell. The causes of death include cell lysis, alterations to the cell's surface membrane and apoptosis.[88] Often cell death is caused by cessation of its normal activities because of suppression by virus-specific proteins, not all of which are components of the virus particle.[89]

You made the claim that the body's defences are the reason for most cell death and that is simply not the case.

remind wrote:

Brian White wrote:
Remind does a whole Virus explanation without even mentioning that they kill cells!

Brian,  you are correct I should have provided links for those who were not aware, like yourself, of what antibodies do, to antigens, and what antigens do to the body, when the body is at war with the invaders.

 

To me it is for common knowlege that antibodies kill antigens/invaders, if they can, or the antigens will kill/damage the cell or  make new cell types that are malignant.

 

...thought most people here would understand the antibody antigen relationship as being a war where cells/organisms die within the body.

 

.So, have rectified  my error and added links so people can see the whole process that I simplified and said I was simplifying.

 

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