RAPISTS IN AUSTRALIA JUST DON'T GET THE MESSAGE
Tue, 2002-09-10 00:04
#1
RAPISTS IN AUSTRALIA JUST DON'T GET THE MESSAGE
Tue, 2002-09-10 00:04
#2
This story appeared in The Age (Melbourne's major daily paper) today 10/9/02. A 28 year old man was charged with counts of aggravated rape and abduction involving two teenage girls late yesterday.
Three other men - aged 21, 20 and 17 - have been charged on summons with sexual penetration and indecent assault. The charges follow and alleged incident at a house in Richmond last week.
Police said the two girls, aged 14 and 17, are believed to be from Sydney. All four men - who were arrested on Sunday night and charged late yesterday afternoon - are Iraqi nationals on temporary protection visas.
It is believed members of the sexual crimes squad arrested the men after the girls contacted police. The men are expected to appear in the Melbourne Magistrates Court on December 2.
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I can't believe that these men could have been so stupid (amongst other things) following the recent lengthy sentencing of a gang of rapists - the ring leader was sentenced to 55 years with a non-parole period of 40 years. I do however, think it is unneccessary to report what the nationality of the alleged perpetrators is. The issue here is that the perpetrators (allleged) do not seem to have learnt anything from the recent case - do these guys think they can just continue to treat women as blow bags?
Tue, 2002-09-10 01:27
#3
You are right that lengthy sentences seldom have deterrent effect on others.
That is one of the reasons 40-50 year sentences make no sense.
It seems like its common in Australia to report on the race/nationality of those who are charged with rape. I wonder why.
Tue, 2002-09-10 03:36
#4
How long is a lifetime?
Not to be toooo paranoid but boy it seems strange that it would be Iraqi's in the current climate.
What I always thought was the best argument against the deterence theory of sentencing was the public hangings in England. Historians claim that while pick pocketing was a hanging offence at one time the pick pockets still worked the hangings. Go figure.
Criminals I think just don't believe they themselves will be caught or are they to stupid to care?
Tue, 2002-09-10 04:26
#5
Well, the way I see it is that the long sentences handed out to rapists are an example of Charles Darwin in action. By keeping them out of the gene pool, whatever traits they have won't propagate.
Of course, the question of whether they have some kind of propensity to rape isn't really a genetics thing, but what can very well be is their biological makeup which, combined with the environment they're in, allows for an expression of a predisposition to be a selfish turd.
Tue, 2002-09-10 05:52
#6
quote:
It seems like its common in Australia to report on the race/nationality of those who are charged with rape. I wonder why.
It is because Australia has a really big problem with immigration, despite its vast size, its relatively small population and the fact that nearly all the lawmakers are themselves immigrants or descendants of (forced) immigrants. I do not know how bigoted the average Australian is, though friends who have visited and lived in the country say it seems particularly opposed to immigration compared to others they have visited. I suspect this underlies how the media report the nationality/ethnicity of the attackers. Whatever one may think of the crime and the criminal, their nationality has nothing to do with it other than a disgusting effort by the media to label and guilt-by-associate immigrant communities.
Nasty.
Tue, 2002-09-10 07:33
#7
I'm not so sure about Darwin. Even if (un)natural selection had an effect it would take several generations to be noticible.
Public execution or at least some kind of public humiliation (castration?) would, I imagine, make potential rapists think twice.
[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: satana ]
Tue, 2002-09-10 07:36
#8
Aussies like to think of themselves as easy-going, multicultural people who are not biased, bigoted or racist. None of that is true. There is a percentage of the population who believe in "live and let live" and who don't wish ill on anyone, however there are plenty who are just the opposite. We are a relatively small nation and are continually overlooked - we are perceived as a living in a bit of a backwater and perhaps that influences some of out attitudes - we think we have to align ourselves with all sorts of militaristic morons to give ourselves credibility - a lot of the biases and racists attitudes displayed by some (not all) Australians can be traced to our Government, the American Government and media in both countries. I thought it was particularly damaging to report that the alleged perpetrators of this crime nationality was Iraqi - how convenient, we need a reason to hate them just a bit more don't we???? I just wish, trite though it sounds, that we could just get on with the business of living and stop hating so hard.
Tue, 2002-09-10 11:13
#9
Long sentences don't rehabilitate, if that is possible, but they do provide the opportunity for two things to happen. One there is no chance of the guilty to re-offend while in prison. Unless of course you feel raping another skinner is re-offending.
Two it gives plenty of time for the guilty to mature and reflect on the damage they have created in someone elses life.
In Canada we have no death penalty because we have an established faith in the idea that people make mistakes. Not to say that the guilty can be rehabilitated, but that at times, as history shows, the innocent can be thought to be guilty and removed from many of their rights and priveledges wrongfully.
For that, we can not change what has happened but we can appologise and compensate monitarily (not that this is in practice yet) for that wrong to try to make whats left of the persons life better.
But those who are dead from the actions of the guilty have no hope for someone to correct what has been done. Their families will not get them back after 10 years.
While I agree that there should be far more proactive measures inplace now that help to prevent rape and murder along with other violent crime, I feel that the rights and freedoms of those who work hard at being an upstanding contribution to society who make it a better place should come before the rights of those who prey on them.
I don't think publisizing anything other than the trial does anything to deter future violent criminals. That smells a bit like blood lust to me.
So at present the best we can hope for is to make sure that those who do rape and murder and such, always have the chance to bring new evidence to light but without being found innocent remain in the controled environs of the correctional system.
Tue, 2002-09-10 11:54
#10
I think in this particular case, the reporting of the accused place of origin is germaine.
Reporting of an accused person's race or place of origin is ordinarily a racist way of reportage, because we don't often see that extended to accused persons of "WASP" origin, therefore leaving the reader with a very skewed idea of who is committing crime.
However, I cannot rule out that the charges against these men in this case may be due to media driven anti-Iraq hysteria.
Oh posh! you say.
I remember very well during the hieght of the FLQ crisis a girl who says she was abducted on the 401 by "French Canadians", and let off at the Wellington Road Exit in London here.
As evidence, she showed where they carved "FLQ" in her arm.
After the crisis, it turned out the whole thing was a hoax perpetrated by the girl.
While I'm ordinarily against reporting race or place of origin, and I'm ordinarily predisposed to believing the victims in such cases, these are hardly ordinary times.
Tue, 2002-09-10 12:18
#11
Are you saying their place of origin was reported because the conviction for rape might be untrue?
Tue, 2002-09-10 17:00
#12
I'm not sure, it cuts both ways. In my mind, it could tip people to the fact that this has to be looked at more carefully, in context of the current anti-Arab/Iraqi hysteria.
But on the other hand, instead of putting a damper on anti-Arab/Iraqi hysteria, it could actually feed it, couldn't it?
In my mind, the place of origin/race was germaine, but I'm thinking now it's for reasons very different than what others might think it is.
So, maybe it's always best left out of reportage.
Tue, 2002-09-10 17:18
#13
I just don't buy that, not so much because of Australia's record on immigration (answer = not good at all), but because it means the press is reporting it out of some highminded idea that the convicted could be innocent but convicted because of the hysteria. The burden of proof is so much more difficult in rape cases, I would be frankly gobsmacked if that were true, and the press acting all nice and considerate...?
Nah, don't buy that in the slightest!
Tue, 2002-09-10 17:35
#14
We are so far removed from the facts here that I am mostly thinking in the hypothetical.
From what I know of the media in general, I'm sure that in this case they were either ignorant of fanning the flames of anti-Arab/Iraqi hysteria, or willfully manning the bellows.
I think my experience is different, and it led me down a different path of thinking. Because the Iraqi refference triggered my thinking that it was possible that the victims in [i]this[/i] case could have cut their story from whole cloth, doesn't mean that everyone would be thinking this also.
In retrospect, I'm astounded that I thought this would be everyone's thinking who read the article.
Tue, 2002-09-10 19:18
#15
It seems to me that the reference to the accuseds race stems from the current climate in Australia.
The last international news story was a gang of Lebenese men gang raping their victims... In that case, the media didn't make an issue of their race, the rapists did. They identified themselves as "Lebs" to their victims, and told their victims they were going to be "fucked the Leb way".
Under those circumstances, I can better appreciate why the media would report this gang's race. There is a fear that there may be ANOTHER group of "nationalist racists" out there. Whether that is the case remains to be seen, but I can appreciate the media's choice to report on the race of those accused.
That being said, I believe the media have a responsibility not to unduly alarm the public, jump to conclusions, or fan the flames of panic... I'm not sure reporting on the race of those charged was entirely responsible.
I'm just not sure that it's indicitive of racism, either.
Tue, 2002-09-10 19:24
#16
Incidently, I think that rapists in the "Western World"* DO get the real message.
Despite the media coverage of the long sentences doled out to gang rapists recently, the vast majority of rapes go unpunished. There isn't much deterence in that sad fact.
The message is - they can get away with it just like almost everyone else does.
*(Does the term "Western World" apply to Australia? I always thought it did, but now that I think about it, I'm not positive).
Tue, 2002-09-10 20:20
#17
I think as much as 'the rapists' don't get the message, neither do much of the rest of society. Rape is still viewed by many as a crime comitted by 'sex-staved' individuals, which is rarely the case. Rape is about power and control. The problem lies deeper than anything like locking someone away for 20 or 30 or 50 years can solve.
To decrease the prevalence of rape in society (it'll probably never be completely gone, like most crimes) we as a society must look at the power structures we create, and how different people react to dominance and submission; how we socialize and internalize dominance or submission.
Punitive prison sentences, with rare exceptions, do nothing to address this issue, in fact they are more likely to aggravate these problems. Though it must be mentioned that are few other options for dealing today with this kind of deviance that has already occurred.
I believe rape is quite similar to (serial) murder. If it happens just once, 'tis probably from lack of other oppotunities. Both the serial killer and the rapist have a psychotic impulse to exert control - over life, death, pain, and/or sex - a control they lack in some other area(s) of their life.
One reason the vast majority of both rapists and serial killers are men is that men are, in most cultures, raised and socialized to be a dominant person. Again, both serial killers and rapists usually have been subordinated by some kind of abuse at some point in their past, creating a need for them to (continually) prove their dominance over others to themselves. Of course, this does not mean that all abuse victims will act out these pathologies (rape/murder) - often abuse victims fulfill their need for dominance through work, or nonviolently in their relationships. This is certainly the lesser of two evils, but allows for the dominance/subordination patterns created by society to perpetuate themselves.
Ahhh, the law of unintended consequences, and a hierachical society. What a mix.
Wed, 2002-09-11 06:57
#18
Yes, there are plenty of "red-necks" in Australia who give our attitude towards assylum seekers a very bad name internationally, but on the other hand there are many people who protest loud and long about the way our Government treats these people, who are not criminals and shouldn't be locked up. I took my (14 y.o.)son to a detention centre recently so that he could see for himself the high fences and razor wire. We took some fruit and left it with the Officers at the gates who promised to distribute it to the children in detention - not that there's much chance of that. People in this country are too readily swayed by the media which leads me to believe that the reporting of the "alleged" perpetrators nationality was no accident. Our Prime Minister, John Howard, would be pleased about any negative reporting towards Iraqi people at the moment, he wants the Australian people to back up his decision to "brown nose" to George Dubya and commit our finest young men to almost certain death.
Rape is about power over others, it is not simply the act of sex - if it were simply sex there are plenty of sexually active people out there who could satisfy any rapists desires. It comes back to the act of penetration - in a loving relationship (or even one where some form of respect is present) penetration is not a bad thing, but when you are thrusting something into someone else as a means of exerting power over them it is a different act - there are plenty of "sick" people out there. [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]
Oh and no matter what happens or when war finally does explode globally I only hope I will be able to hide my son - I didn't give birth to him so that some other bastard could kill him.
Wed, 2002-09-11 15:10
#19
quote:
Long sentences don't rehabilitate, if that is possible, but they do provide the opportunity for two things to happen. One there is no chance of the guilty to re-offend while in prison. Unless of course you feel raping another skinner is re-offending.
I'm appalled. Is rape not rape. Let's see send an 18 year young man to jail for pot and he becomes an acceptable rape victim?
That is the same as she deserved it because she had a short skirt on. Violence is always wrong not just sometimes when we like the victim.
Wed, 2002-09-11 15:20
#20
quote:
I'm appalled. Is rape not rape. Let's see send an 18 year young man to jail for pot and he becomes an acceptable rape victim?
Oh heavens you're appalled!
Those convicted of rape are segregated so there is no chance of an 18 year young man going to jail for pot and being raped by a sex offender.
What'a appalling is you lack of understanding of the corrections system and your quick jump to rehtoric.
Wed, 2002-09-11 15:29
#21
That's not true, Slick. Someone who goes to jail for pot would likely get less than 2 years if it's just possession, I would think. In which case they would go to a provincial jail where they could very easily be in with sex offenders who are awaiting trial. Sex offenders don't have to be isolated if they don't want to be - they often choose to be put in the protective custody section of the jail, but if they don't, then they could easily be part of the population. It is offenders who rape children who have a hard time with the other inmates in prison, not the offenders who rape adult women.
Or, if the pot offence is something like dealing, then the person could get a higher sentence than 2 years, in which case they would go to Federal prison. And in that case, they would also likely be in contact with rapists, because after being in maximum security for a while, you can, if you behave, get put in medium or medium-high security prisons. In which case, you associate with criminals with a wide variety of convictions.
Wed, 2002-09-11 16:25
#22
Thank you, Michelle! YOu said exactly what I would have. Only you say it so much better...
[img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
However, I think Slick means only to suggest that rape is suitable punishment for those who rape. The vengeful part of me is inclined to agree with that sentiment.
But Slick - try to stick to sentiment. Don't try to lend credence to your opinion with baseless fact. Michelle is right. Violent sex offenders are generally not isolated from the general population and the horror of rape is a very real problem for all inmates in our prison system regardless of the level of inhumanity of their crimes.
Wed, 2002-09-11 18:09
#23
quote:
What'a appalling is you lack of understanding of the corrections system and your quick jump to rehtoric.
Indeed I do not claim to have spent a lot of time in jail. However it is my understanding that it is not only convicted sex offenders who rape other inmates. Many of the people in jails might be dual "diagnosis" they got convicted for armed robbery or some other violent crime and not the rapes they committed. Or maybe they didn't start raping young men until they had been in the prison system for awhile and couldn't find a willing or not woman.
I was appalled at your advocating rape for any reason against any human being. Sorry if that is rhetoric to you.
Hang em high is that the motto to live by?
Wed, 2002-09-11 18:51
#24
quote:
I was appalled at your advocating rape for any reason against any human being. Sorry if that is rhetoric to you.
Of course it is rehtoric as everyone, well I guess almost everyone, understands that kids convicted of smoking a little pot are not put on the same range with violent offenders.
But if you're asking if I am losing sleep over the thought that Paul Bernardo is a huge target in whatever section he is in, I'm afraid I am the monster you suggest I am. As a matter of fact, if it gets reported that he does get raped brutally, I will have a pretty good laugh about it and think up a few jokes to tell.
But by all means you're welcome to weep and moan for poor Pauly just as much as you like.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2002-09-11 19:05
#25
quote:
But if you're asking if I am losing sleep over the thought that Paul Bernardo is a huge target in whatever section he is in, I'm afraid I am the monster you suggest I am. As a matter of fact, if it gets reported that he does get raped brutally, I will have a pretty good laugh about it and think up a few jokes to tell.But by all means you're welcome to weep and moan for poor Pauly just as much as you like.
And you have the audacity to speak about rhetoric.
Wed, 2002-09-11 19:16
#26
I admit that I don't have a lot of knowlege about this, but it was my understanding that rapes in prison are not necessarily committed by people who were convicted of sex offences, so I don't think that just segregating sex offenders would solve the problem.
I thought that rape was most often an agressive expression of power over another inmate (pretty much like it is on this side of the fence).
Wed, 2002-09-11 20:29
#27
Yes, I think that's exactly what it is, janew. I was thinking that too while I was posting, but I was just responding to Slick's assertion that rapists are not put in general population next to people with smaller offenses, which is not true.
Seems to me that the rapists would actually be the LESS tough guys in jail - I'd be willing to bet that a lot of men who rape women and children are rather like bullies - tough guys when it comes to people weaker than them, but cowards when it comes to people their own size or stronger.
Fri, 2007-06-15 13:57
#28
writer
rape, sentencing, prison