quote:
Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]So what about chinese or other languages and cultures in Quebec, are they somehow less valuable? Shouldn't they be protected from being overwhelmed by the french culture?[/b]
Of all the stupid comments you made on this thread, this one takes the cake.
Could you expand on that please? Feel free to toss in a few more insults.,
I don't know; this one was much stupider:
quote:
Speaking of civilized, could a person put up a chinese sign on their business in Quebec without also putting up one in french that was twice as large? Or would the business get fire bombed?
Babble...where someone called Oatmeal Savage has a personal soap box to be abysmally stupid in perpetuity.
Get a blog, would you?
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]
Starting fires is a lot more along the lines of you and your fascist co-thinkers, Oatmeal.
I mean really. We're talking to someone who cannot speak French about official bilingualism; someone who does not know anything about Quebec about Quebec's language laws; someone who cares absolutely nothing for minority rights about Chinese and Ukrainian Canadians . . .
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]
Oh, Coyote...don't be so insulting to poor Oatmeal. What have you got against free speech? And while we're at it, why do you hate America?
By the way, Oatmeal, if you ever want to talk about cost-effectiveness in providing bilingual services, I'm your guy. When it comes to spending public funds, I'm a [i]real miser[/i].
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
[b]Oh, Coyote...don't be so insulting to poor Oatmeal. What have you got against free speech? And while we're at it, why do you hate America?[/b]
I am duly chastened.
quote:
[b]By the way, Oatmeal, if you ever want to talk about cost-effectiveness in providing bilingual services, I'm your guy. When it comes to spending public funds, I'm a [i]real miser[/i].[/b]
Me too. I can see a lot of duplication, and a lot of half measures, that are being applied wastefully. Here's one: How about having the people who teach French in the ROC [i]actually speak French.[/i]
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]
quote:
How about having the people who teach French in the ROC actually speak French.
Oh, I can't help you on that one. Teacher accreditation has gotten so fucked up, it's almost hopeless.
My niece, who speaks French natively but went to an English university in Ontario and who plans on going to D'Youville College in Buffalo (...[i]Buffalo![/i]) to get the accreditation required to teach French in Ontario thinks it's completely immaterial that she should spend anytime in a totally French-speaking environment in order to be legitimately qualified to teach French. She didn't take her 3rd year abroad in somewhere like France, like most modern language students did in the past. She never even bothered to spend a summer in Trois-Pistoles (or some equivalent place in Quйbec). Her French is more than good enough to get by on a daily basis...but, to teach it? I'm appalled, and I've told her.
Doesn't matter. It's just a job for her. She'll be a bad French teacher, somewhere in a school near you, very soon. Be afraid...be very afraid.
I agree, Hinterland, it's insane. Here we are, an officialy bilingual country, and we don't even make proper use of the basic human resources we have. Why not say that getting a French education degree means going to Quebec (or St. Boniface, or another majority french community in Canada) for at least part of that degree? Same for English teachers in Quebec . . . I've seen some horror stories from quebecois kids and what they're being taught about the english language (still at a generally higher level than the ROC's level of French, though).
We have the people, the communities, and the resources to make promoting bilingualism an easy sell that can be done in a very cost effective manner. What I want to know is why we aren't doing it.
There are no recorded instances of a firebombing there . . . which is not to say it has never happened. Are you honestly going to tell me no French town or business has ever faced discrimination and even physical violence and intimidation in the rest of Canada? This is what I hate about conservatives: their inability to understand that extreme cases are just that; extreme. They are not a good basis for law.
If someone firebombs Revenue Canada, does that become an argument for or against lowering taxes? Or should it even be a part of the debate at all?
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]
A sign of the times. When I grew up most people automatically moved to another language speaking part of the country for at least one year, often two, in order to expand on the bits learned at school. Once you had a good grasp of the second language you often then had to do it all over again in order to learn English if you wanted any kind of a half decent job. I don't see this happening anymore. Of my three nephews only one went to Australia to learn English and none of them bothered to expand on any of our official languages.
I missed most of this fascinating debate so:
*inserts standard objection to simonvallee (and Coyoteґs unjustified conflation of cultural and political boundaries*
[img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
The name of Jacques Villeneuve's new restaurant, "Newtown," is a registered trademark, like "Burger King," which means it is legal under the Quebec language laws. The same goes for "Second Cup," but this didn't stop three "Second Cup" outlets from being firebombed in the fall of 2000 by a fledgling terrorist group that calls itself the Brigade d'Autodйfense du Franзaise (French Self-Defence Brigade.)
So do you figure the whole quebec sign law is a big success story in the cultural tolerance department?
The hypocracy on this subject is truly amazing.
quote:
What I want to know is why we aren't doing it.
Two words. The Oatmeal Savages of the World. Wait, that's 6 words. Doesn't matter. Modern politicians are convinced that Oatmeal Savage is the way of the future (and OS knows it, judging by his insouciant, relentless and completely oblivious and amoral approach to whatever he says). The politicians are of course right. In the short term, the Oatmeal Savages of the world will elect them, and they'll continue to pander to such a...what can I say...[i]dumb demographic?[/i]. Then, when the shit really hits the fan, when Oatmeal Savage no longer has his independent look-at-me-I'm-a-self-made-man business and is panhandlling on the streets of Prince George and going "Huh?", these same politicians will scurry like cockroaches into the woodwork and you and I will be left to mop up the mess. It's happened before; it'll happen again.
quote:
inserts standard objection to simonvallee (and Coyoteґs unjustified conflation of cultural and political boundaries*
Yeah, I've been here a long time, Mandos. You can't get away with a post that says "my usual comments". Even I'm not that lazy.
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
[b]I missed most of this fascinating debate so:*inserts standard objection to simonvallee (and Coyoteґs unjustified conflation of cultural and political boundaries*
[img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
Well met.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
So do you figure the whole quebec sign law is a big success story in the cultural tolerance department?
Actually, using your logic, the Quebec sign law is a great success on the cultural tolerance front, because without it there would be more English signs, and therefore more business with English signs would be firebombed!
With the law as it is, the lunatics led by Raymond Villeneuve (no relation to Jacques) only have a short list of stores to firebomb.
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]
Speaking of which, I'm off to fire-bomb [i]Val-Mar![/i]
...oh, stop looking at me like that, CSIS Operative no. 45...I'm just [i]kidding[/i].
Tsktsk Hinterland, you are taking what I was saying too seriously. Coyote got it.
This sacred cow seems impervious logic. Although it's only offensive capabilities appear to be massive broadsides of bullshit.
quote:
Tsktsk Hinterland, you are taking what I was saying too seriously. Coyote got it.
Well, I just don't get it. For the love God, PM me! And tell me how you pronounce "tsktsk", while you're at it. I tried, but my partial flew out of my mouth.
[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]
Oatmeal, you don't say anything. Ever. I'm really sorry we offend you by, well, trying to offend you (you got us there) but it's not like you give us anything other to discuss when faced with your reams of bigotry. The simple fact is you come from a very different place (ideologically) than the rest of us. You do not care about fairness. You do not care about equality. You have absolutely no ability to put anything into any context other than your own. You have, in other words, no imagination.
100 years ago your intellectual ancestors were leading marches and flying Orange flags, and they weren't just going after the French (but the really hated the French). Any brief investigation of Canadian history will show you that time and again French communities have been the victims of intolerance. And you have the gall to sit here and claim victimhood. Buddy. I learned French last year. I went to Quebec to live amongst the Quebecois and learn their language and be a part of their community. I was accepted so warmly, and learned so much, that it is amazing. Conservatives like you will never see the intangible benefits of expanding themselves because you are so scared, scared, of any threat to the supremacy of your own social position that it completely unnerves you.
When you hear the phrase "lowest common denominator" come up in conversation, take a good look in the mirror; you embody the expression.
Interesting, I don't care about fairness. Hmmmm Tell me how defending the language rights of minorities in Quebec makes me a bigot.
Tell me how asking why french is given preference over other minorities in the ROC is bigotry.
Look in the mirror youself buddy, you've been sold a bunch of politically correct bullshit that is internally inconsistent and illogical.
I thought your socialist ideology preached fairness and equality, if so, why does french get special treatment over other minorities? Why does the Quebec sign law get a pass when it comes to rooting out intolerance?
You must admit the arguements for bilingualism in this thread have been pretty weak, in fact most of it is just insults, which says a lot about the intellectual agility of the people trying to defend it. Perhaps they have never really examined the reasons why they are in favour of the program and have just been parroting back the party line. Might be time for a little bit of thinking outside the box and to do some thinking for themselves.
Or, maybe we're tired of being spewed all over by vomitous bigots. Could be.
quote:
I thought your socialist ideology preached fairness and equality
No, YOUR ideology is the one that does the "preaching" . . . but little else!
Us "socialists" understand that "preaching" at your coffee to be hot, or "preaching" at your car to start does nothing until you actually make the effort to apply heat to your coffee, and turn the ignition on your car . . . "preaching" equaility without taking "equalizing" actions is a trick used by biggots to turn political correctness into a weapon of "good old boy" privlidge!
I asked you a couple of questions back further and gave a point of view, as did others, apparently your reason for being here is only to rant and rail. However, I will try again to show you that you're biased against French Canadians.
quote:
Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
[b]Interesting, I don't care about fairness. Hmmmm Tell me how defending the language rights of minorities in Quebec makes me a bigot.
Tell me how asking why french is given preference over other minorities in the ROC is bigotry.[/b]
You're right, it is not bigotry, what it really is ignorance. The French constituency today in Canada is representative of those in history who made the negotiated settlement with Britain. And their history is as long as or longer than other ethnicities including many Anglophones are today in Canada. They have been equal, at least, partners in exploring and building Canada. Bilingualism to me is recognizing that partnership in country and society
quote:
[b]
... sold a bunch of politically correct bullshit that is internally inconsistent and illogical.[/b]
Who did the selling? Just kidding as there was no sale. Unless it was a book sale. It is not illogical or internally inconsistent, the deal was made generations ago, but never really adhered to.
quote:
[b]
I thought your socialist ideology preached fairness and equality, if so, why does french get special treatment over other minorities? [/b]
They do not get special treatment they are getting their own agreed to rights. Other ethnicities are johny come latelies ao to speak. It does not make their rights less, just different.
quote:
[b]
You must admit the arguements for bilingualism in this thread have been pretty weak, in fact most of it is just insults, which says a lot about the intellectual agility of the people trying to defend it. Perhaps they have never really examined the reasons why they are in favour of the program and have just been parroting back the party line. Might be time for a little bit of thinking outside the box and to do some thinking for themselves.[/b]
I do not think you should consider yourself to be a judge of intellectual agility BTW. As you seem to be failing to grasp, their ancestors were most likely here long before yours and negotiated their terms as equal peoples. It seems you are parroting a much older party line and perhaps it is time to give up the Jacobite rebellion?
Equal partners you say, funny how the zombies weren't preaching equality when the English speaking troops threw the Nazis out of France, somehow it wasn't their problem. Prety selective equality. You do remember learning about the zombies in your high school education, don't you?
Are you suggesting that bilinualism in the ROC and the Quebec sign law etc. were all negotiated back in the good old days of the French/English wars? I think most of those special rights for the french have been added later to try to get the separatists to shut up. So try again, how is it so terrible for the french to be a minority amongst the English speakers in North America, but it is okay for the french to shit all over any minority in Quebec?
It's been tit for tat between les Anglais and Francophones throughout Quebec's history, TOS. My grandfather played for Le Club de Hockey in Montreal many years ago. I remember him talking about Francophones being turned away from various establishments there in those days. Jews and Francophones were not allowed at McGill at one time. Perhaps you are unaware of the bad blood between the two old ethnic groups in Quebec, TOS ?.
And "French" should be capitalized. You're a menace to the English language, TOS. Please capitalize or we'll keel haul yer and make ye walk the plank, mate. ha ha
[ 23 October 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]
quote:
but it is okay for the french to shit all over any minority in Quebec?
Nobody but you brought this up in support of their argument. Why would you contend that we think this is ok, bigot?
Most of the world's minority groups would switch places with the French minority in Canada or the english speaking minority in Quebec in a flash!
BleedingHeart, would that be before or after reading The Oatmeal Savage's posts? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Does anyone know about what zombies he is speaking of?
Who cares?
I never read his posts.
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
[b]BleedingHeart, would that be before or after reading The Oatmeal Savage's posts? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Does anyone know about what zombies he is speaking of?[/b]
Ask a vet on November 11th.
I wonder if Oatmeal Savage is a zombie. He certainly seems braindead.
Wow.
This thread has gone from bad to worse; from the comedy of Cory Willis and his ferret propounding on the economic savings to be had from leaving half of our cereal boxes blank to the foaming-at-the-mouth bigoted ravings of Oatmeal Savage.
Is this the best support Harper can muster?
quote:
Originally posted by Andy Social:
[b]I wonder if Oatmeal Savage is a zombie. He certainly seems braindead.[/b]
Pick it up a bit would you, Andy? Your insults are flat and uninspiring, they bore me.
If you read the thread you will see that Quebec's contribution to Canada was questioned, so ask a WWII vet what the zombies were. Perhaps you have been getting the sanitised and politically corrected version of history.
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
[b]Is this the best support Harper can muster?[/b]
They're more intelligent and open-minded than most of his MPs.
quote:
Pick it up a bit would you, Andy? Your insults are flat and uninspiring, they bore me.
If you read the thread you will see that Quebec's contribution to Canada was questioned, so ask a WWII vet what the zombies were. Perhaps you have been getting the sanitised and politically corrected version of history.
It never gets any better than this, does it? *sigh*.
TOS, do you get angry when you see French written on your box of cereal?
HA!
Also: Too long.
Stephen Harper:
quote:
Our challenge as Conservatives is to develop new proposals for addressing Quebec's unique concerns . . .
In Belgium, for example, federal authority has been divided not just with geographically based regions, but also with lingusitic communities as well.I want my party to consider how this model could be adapted to Canada.
Rather than devolving more power to the provinces in areas like cultural affairs and international relations, perhaps the federal government, working with the provinces and particularly with Quebec, could establish Francophone and Anglophone Community institutions for jurisdictions in areas like the CRTC and the CBC, or the Francophonie, the Commonwealth and UNESCO.
The Belgian model and the experience of other countries could guide us. . .
. . . this kind of devolution would allow/recognize arrangements tailored more to Quebec's needs, but in ways that strengthen the relationship between French-speaking Canadians across the country. . . it also provides some meaningful recognition of/ voice to English Canada . . . without devolving authority that few in Anglophone provincial capitals are actually seeking.
Way, way beyond asymetrical federalism. Did he mean it? Did he realize what a radical proposal this is? My suspicion is he did.
If this resurfaces, this discussion may be prescient.
Ya let's send Harper to Belgium!!
Yowza, long thread.
