Most sexual assault is committed by men we know.
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:01
#1
Most sexual assault is committed by men we know.
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:01
#2
I feel like this cannot be stated enough. Most rape and other violent assaults against women happen in their homes, by their family members and by their friends. Women are the least safe in their homes.
There is too much rhetoric about the big bad rapist waiting for us in the alley. Not that stranger attacks DON'T happen, but that is not where the majority of attacks against women happen.
I wish people would repeat this to themselves whenever they think about "scary" situations for women. The scariest place for most women who have been raped or physically attacked is at home. That's where it happens most of the time. The scariest men to most women who have been attacked are the men they know. Most women know their assailants, and many love them.
It's not easy to leave an abusive spouse. It's not easy to recognize abusive patterns when you're living them. It's not easy when you're in a marriage or a cohabiting relationship to know for sure (or admit to anyone) that you're being sexually assaulted by your spouse. It's not easy to leave even if you do recognize it and even if you don't love your spouse anymore.
Most women couldn't kill their abusive loved ones no matter what. Those women who do kill their abusers run the risk of doing time for it. Not something you'd want to risk if you have children to raise. Many women run away from their abusers and get killed by them for leaving. Restraining orders mean nothing. What makes anyone think that a man who would commit the felony and inhumane act of rape or battery would give two shits about disobeying a piece of paper that tells them to stay away?
Women who are being abused are threatened and scared of their abusers. They have often been so battered emotionally that they have very little confidence in their ability to get away or survive.
We need to stop perpetuating this bogeyman rapist in a dark alley thing. Women are NOT unsafe if they leave the house. Statistically, women are safer out of the house than in it. There is no way a woman can completely ensure that she won't be raped or hurt. When we claim that she can, then we are blaming those who didn't for their victimization.
I think the reason that rape is so often visualized as stranger attacks in the streets rather than boyfriend/husband/father/brother/uncle attacks at home is because that paradigm (the stranger attacks) is a very patriarchal paradigm, from a still patriarchal society. A society where rape used to be seen as a property crime rather than a crime against the woman herself. I think the reason we often don't see rape as an "at home" thing is not because most people still view women as property of their husbands - although there is certainly a strong minority of men who still act that way - but because the paradigm itself is a hangover from the time when rape was about taking something away from the men in the woman's life (husband, father, brother) or about taking away her honour (bestowed upon her by her chastity or fidelity to her husband) rather than about the woman's own personal boundaries.
Okay, I'm blathering, I guess. But I still see it so often, usually by men, where rape is talked about in such a patriarchal way, using such a chauvanist paradigm. It's like, the bad rape, the really bad rape, is when a woman limps off "naked and bleeding" down the street.
Whereas the bad rape, the really bad rape, happens on dates, and in womens' own bedrooms, by the men they often love most. That's the really bad rape, and that's the most common rape. Because when you're not safe at home, in your own space, in your own haven, that is a daily horror that far exceeds any titillating public gore scene that any guy can come up with.
[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:19
#3
Several years ago, when I lived in Winnipeg, a bunch of we girls got together for an evening of eating and laughing. There was 10 of us. After several bottles of wine, the stories started. All of us were in our late 20s. All of us (except for 1 woman) had been raped. None of us had told the others or anyone else about it. And all of us were raped by someone we knew and trusted. (me - a former boyfriend). the one woman who hadn't been raped had been beaten by her boyfriend for going out one night with her friends "without his permission". This was only 20-25 years ago. All of us were successful, "normal" people. On the outside. I will not go into details about our "insides". All I know, is for me, I have no trust in men anymore. I do trust the men in my family - I know that they are good people. But that is only what I see of them. I am pretty sure that the men in my immediate family are trustworthy... but unfortunately, I do not trust any other men. And that is why my first marriage failed. I didn't trust him. And that is why, at 51, I will never ever get married. Nor, I doubt, will I ever go out with another man. It's not worth it.
/end rant.
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:24
#4
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
This is a very saddening thread. My heart is hurting.
With all my sympathies to you both, I hope this isn't really typical of the experience of 90% of women.
I have two daughters.
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:47
#5
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:[b]I hope this isn't really typical of the experience of 90% of women.I have two daughters.[/b]
I am willing to say it is close to 100% of woman, over the course of their lifetime, not just 90%. Even the one exception given by Diane had suffered assault at the hands of one she was supposed to be able to trust.
That does not mean every man is a rapist patriarchial control freak, who thinks they can just take it, it just means that almost every girl or women will, or has, run into one who does.
In an little bit of an offside, Medium, with Patricia Arquette, touched a bit on saying NO, to her husband on tonight's show. They were awake in the middle of the night, he wanted to she didn't. Finally after all the typical things a man says to his wife/g/f etc, she held firm and he respected her wishes and ceased what he had been trying in essence to force through cohersion, guilt, pity, etc. Men, and many women do not realize everytime that one gives into to such self esteem eroding, and emotional battery, it is forced sex against the will. I was pleasantly surprised to see such a thing on Prime Time.
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:51
#6
The worst part about the one friend who had been assaulted (but not raped - as far as I know) was that the man that did that to her was my cousin. A man that I adored and admired. I can't even look at him now. For all his good points (intelligent, fun, witty) - to me he is just someone who hit the woman he was supposed to have loved. What a fucking waste.
Wed, 2006-12-20 21:51
#7
writer
Susan Griffin, "The Politics of Rape" (1970):
quote:
... The attraction of the male in our culture to violence and death is a tradition [Charles] Manson and his admirers are carrying on with tireless avidity ... It was Malraux in his [i]Anti-Memoirs[/i] who said that, for the male, facing death was the illuminating experience analogous to childbirth for the female. Certainly, our culture does glorify war and shroud the agonies of the gunfighter in veils of mystery.
...In the system of chivalry, men protect women against men. This is not unlike the protection relationship which the mafia established with small businesses in the early part of this century. Indeed, chivalry is an age-old protection racket which depends for its existence on rape.
... One should not assume, however, that a woman can avoid the possibility of rape simply by behaving. Though myth would have it that mainly 'bad girls' are raped, this theory has no basis in fact. Available statistics would lead one to believe that a safer course is promiscuity. In a study of rape done in the District of Columbia, it was found that 82 percent of the rape victims had a 'good reputation'. Even the Police Inspector's advice to stay off the streets is rather useless, for almost half of reported rapes occur in the home of the victim and are committed by a man she has never before seen. Like indiscriminate terrorism, rape can happen to any woman, and few women are ever without this knowledge.
... No simple reforms can eliminate rape. As the symbolic expression of the white male hierarchy, rape is the quintessential act of our civilization, one which, Valerie Solanis [sic] warns, is in danger of 'humping itself to death'.
[url=http://www.depts.drew.edu/wmst/corecourses/wmst111/timeline_bios/Vsolana... Solanas had a gun.[/url]
About the statistic mentioned above: It is important to note that this was published six years before the state of Nebraska enacted the U.S.'s first marital rape law making it illegal for a husband to rape his wife.
"Like indiscriminate terrorism, rape can happen to any woman, and few women are ever without this knowledge."
[ 20 December 2006: Message edited by: writer ]
Wed, 2006-12-20 22:50
#8
It's true, there are some terrifying statistics out there, revealling how victimized Canadian women really are, though there is hardly enough dialogue on it.
This will be a long post, but here are some statistics from [url=http://www.wavaw.ca/informed_stats.php]Women Against Violence Against Women.[/url]
1. Four out of five female undergraduates surveyed at Canadian universities said that they had been victims of violence in a dating relationship. Of that number, 29% reported incidents of sexual assault. (W. DeKeseredy and K. Kelly, "The Incidence and Prevalence of Woman Abuse in Canadian University and College Dating Relationships: Results From a National Survey," Ottawa: Health Canada, 1993)
2. A survey on date rape showed that 60% of Canadian college-aged males indicated that they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they would not get caught. (Helen Lenskyj, "An Analysis of Violence Against Women: A Manual for Educators and Administrators," Toronto: Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, 1992)
3. According to Statistics Canada, only 6% of all sexual assaults are reported to the police. (Statistics Canada, "The Violence Against Women Survey," The Daily, November 18, 1993)
4. Only 1% of all date rapes are reported to police. (Diana Russell, Sexual Exploitation: Rape, Child Abuse and Workplace Harassment, California: Sage Publishing, 1984)
5. Consistently acquaintance sexual assault is found to be the most underreported crime in Canada. (Robin Warshaw, I Never Called It Rape, 1988)
6. The majority of date and acquaintance rape victims are young women aged 16 to 24. (Helen Lenskyj, "An Analysis of Violence Against Women: A Manual for Educators and Administrators," Toronto: Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, 1992)
7. A 1993 survey found that one-half of all Canadian women have experienced at least one incident of sexual or physical violence. Almost 60% of these women were the targets of more than one violent incidents. (Statistics Canada, "The Violence Against Women Survey," The Daily, November 18, 1993)
8. Statistics show one in four Canadian women will be sexually assaulted during her lifetime. ( J. Brickman and J. Briere, "Incidence of Rape and Sexual Assault in an Urban Canadian Population," The International Journal of Women's Studies, Vol. 7, no. 3, 1984)
In BC, sexual assault is twice the national average: Almost 1 out of 2 women in British Columbia have been sexually assaulted (47%). (D. Kinnon, "Report on Sexual Assault in Canada," Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women, Ottawa, 1981)
9. Most women who are sexually assaulted know their attackers. In fact approximately 80% are assaulted by men known to them in some capacity. (D. Kinnon, "Report on Sexual Assault in Canada, Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women, Ottawa, 1981)
10. Research indicates that a shocking number of young men and women believe that it is okay to coerce a woman to have sex. In a Toronto study, 31% of males and 22% of females said yes when asked, "If a girl engages in necking or petting and she lets things get out of hand, is it her own fault if her partner forces sex on her?" Another study found that 60% of Canadian college-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they would not get caught. (Helen Lenskyj, "An Analysis of Violence Against Women: A Manual for Educators and Administrators," Toronto: Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, 1992)
11. A study of 304 Toronto secondary school students found that one-fifth of the young women had experienced at least one form of assault in a dating relationship. (Shirley Mercer, Not a Pretty Picture: An Exploratory Study of Violence Against Women in Dating Relationships, Toronto: Education Wife Assault, 1987)
12. Statistics Canada indicates that women are physically injured in 11% of sexual assaults. (Statistics Canada, "The Violence Against Women Survey," The Daily, November 18, 1993)
13. The effects of sexual assault on a woman's mental health and well-being can be just as serious as physical injuries. 9 out of 10 incidents of violence against women have an emotional effect on the victim. The most commonly reported effects are anger, fear and becoming more cautious and less trusting. (Statistics Canada, "The Violence Against Women Survey," The Daily, November 18, 1993)
14. Assaults on women with disabilities can trigger severe physical reactions. A woman with epilepsy may have a seizure, a woman with cerebral palsy may develop even more unclear speech, or a woman with diabetes may go into insulin shock. (DisAbled Women's Network(DAWN), Violence Against Women With Disabilities, Toronto: DAWN)
15. In one study, women gave the following reasons for not reporting incidents of sexual assault:
belief that the police could do nothing about it (50%)
concern about the attitude of both police and the courts towards sexual assault (44%)
fear of another assault by the offender (33%)
fear and shame (64%)
Women who have been sexually assaulted often fear that if they report a sexual assault they will be revictimized by the justice system.
(Solicitor General of Canada, "Canadian Urban Victimization Survey," Bulletin 4: Female Victims of Crime, Ottawa, 1985)
16. More than 80% of rapes that occur on university and college campuses are committed by someone the victim knows, and 50% occur on dates. Many of these assaults happen during the first eight weeks of classes. (University of Alberta - 'Sexual Assault and the Law in Canada' )
17. 15% to 30% of university women report experiencing acquaintance rape. (University of Alberta - 'Sexual Assault and the Law in Canada' )
18. Studies conducted in 1995 at the University of Victoria estimate that between 1 in 6 and 1 in 4 women have experienced sexual assault during their university career. (University of Victoria Sexual Assault Centre)
19. False accusations of rape happen no more often than false reports of other types of crime: about 2 to 4%, which means that 96 to 98% of reports are true. (University of Alberta - 'Sexual Assault and the Law in Canada' )
20. Almost 1 out of 2 women in British Columbia have been sexually assaulted(47%). (D. Kinnon, "Report on Sexual Assault in Canada," Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Women, Ottawa, 1981)
Wed, 2006-12-20 23:18
#9
remind
The statistics only back up what many women know. I wonder how many men really do perceive what they do when they does this is wrong?
Thu, 2006-12-21 01:12
#10
Scott Piatkowski
I wonder how many men have been in group conversations like the one that Diane described. And, how many of them would admit to having committed sexual assault (I suspect that it comforts date rapists to think that they weren't guilty of sexual assault... or maybe they just don't care). And, I wonder how those who admitting to having committed sexual assault were then viewed by their peers (is there no ostracism?).
I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but sexual assault (in the home or in an alley) is ultimately about male behaviour. How can we change it?
[ 21 December 2006: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]
Thu, 2006-12-21 04:08
#11
Maysie
I spent New Year's Day this year, the first day of 2006, in the emergency room of a downtown Toronto hospital with a woman who is very close to me who had been date raped the night before. She had no memory of it. She had been on one or two dates already with the man, who was a friend of a friend, and invited him to dinner at her place and a low-key party at a friend of hers. She has no memory of about 9pm that night to about 1pm the next day in the hospital with me.
We suspect that he put something in her drink. The blood test at the hospital indicated a cough medication, which my friend never takes, and the strongest ingredient in many cough medications is usually something that induces sleep, or drowsiness.
I picked her up at 10am on New Year's day because she called me, disoriented. She had lost a huge block of time, and she couldn't retain any info, kept asking me the same questions, until 1pm when it seemed to fade back.
It broke my heart.
It also enraged me, and I had many plans (that friends talked me out of) of wreaking revenge on him.
He knows where my friend lives, she doesn't remember anything, she didn't report it to the police. But there is no doubt that it happened.
She didn't talk to him again, nor did she disclose any of this to the friend who set them up. He is very likely still out there dating and raping women. That he's a "respected" member of the community goes without saying.
Thank you for starting this thread, Michelle. Men of conscience must hear this reality, and they must join us in this fight.
Thu, 2006-12-21 04:20
#12
A person I know met a man at a club, she had already seen him around and they had talked a few time prior to this particular meeting. She really needed a ride home and was crying because it was too late for a subway and she had no money to take a cab. She accepted a ride from this man, who knew friends of hers.
She woke up the next morning, naked, with no memory of what went on the night before. When she stood up it was obvious someone had done something to her in her sleep. She had been raped while unconscious. She didn't report it because she didn't think the police would do anything and because she blamed herself, even though it was clearly the fact she had been raped.
I could go on and on with these stories.
Thu, 2006-12-21 05:23
#13
I'm glad to see this got a few responses. I was thinking I was rambling so much that people would get halfway through it and say, oh forget it, too long. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Anyhow...Diane, that's an awful thing. I'm sorry to hear about the experiences of you and your friends. But when I think about it, at my age (30's), most of the women I've been close to has had at least some kind of experience with unwanted sexual contact or physical abuse that it's amazing to me to think that some statistics say that only a quarter of women have been sexually assaulted. I know that an informal poll of the people you know is not scientific or anything, so I'm not disputing the number, but still.
It's interesting how women react to this, and how difficult it is to put that gut reaction into words because I, at least, anticipate the reaction of the guys who would never do something like this as kind of cornered or pigeonholed or whatever. I worry about saying that women who are sensitized to assault, whether through personal experience or seeing her friends go through it, will be wary of ALL men until they gain their trust (and possibly even after that too, since most assaults happen to women by men they trust and often love), because I can understand how that could make the guys who would never dream of assaulting a woman pretty defensive.
So, I especially appreciate the posts by the men on this thread so far. I appreciate the fact that the guys here have not blamed a sexual assault victim for sharing her feelings of mistrust that stem from that, and recognize that it's not the mistrust that is the problem, it's the sexual assault that causes the mistrust. This is a prime example of why sexual assault doesn't just affect the victims and the men who commit them. It affects all men, because the "good guys" also suffer the consequences of the fact that half the women they know have been assaulted, either physically or sexually, and that as a result, these women will feel like they can't trust anyone.
Scott, I've often wondered that too. It strikes me that, because the "typical" rape scene that comes to people's minds in our patriarchal society is the stranger in the dark alley on the street, that it's possible that a lot of guys who sexually assault women might not even fully realize they're doing anything wrong. No, I'm not saying that to let anyone off the hook. Obviously a guy who sticks a drug in a woman's drink and then has sex with her while she's unconscious knows he's doing something wrong. But, for instance, when I see that statistic that says that date rape and acquaintence rape most commonly occurs between women who are 16-24, and when I think about how difficult it is for a lot of girls and women to even RECOGNIZE that what has happened or is happening to them is sexual assault, it makes me wonder whether one of the big problems is that perhaps the guys who do it don't recognize it either. After all, if young women are naive going into the dating scene and haven't learned how to navigate all the sexual territory yet, it's possible that a lot of young men are too.
Everyone knows that when you drag a woman into a dark alley and rape her, that's rape. Most men, even men who have committed some sort of sexual assault, wouldn't do something like that. There's no ambiguity whatsoever there. But a lot of guys, especially teenage guys, think nothing of getting girls drunk and taking advantage of them (and I think it's probably difficult for people to figure out the difference between consent and assault when people are drunk - I've had sex while drunk lots of times and it was fully consensual. But I've also seen more than one case of women who have not been interested while sober, but who have been strongly coerced while very drunk and acquiesced (or even said no but finally gave in to get it over with), mostly because they didn't know what they were doing, and the guy knew that was the only way he was going to get laid with her. Is that full consent? I would say not.)
I've also had friends in long term relationships who have shared stories about how their partners kept begging and begging for sex that they were uncomfortable with, or sex that hurt, or sex that they found degrading. Some of them would try it, hate it, and say they don't want to do it again and yet they kept getting begged and begged and begged for it. I have heard this most often about anal sex, for instance. Great stuff if you're into it, nothing wrong with it. Not fun at all if you're not into it or if you find it painful. I've known at least three women who have been assaulted by their partners who, after begging and begging for it and hearing their partners repeat "no" (often after having tried it and not liked it), then try to do it "accidentally on purpose" to see whether the women will object or just be a good sport and let it go. Or, they'll keep going and pretend to be so "lost in the moment" that they didn't hear any objections. (I've heard this in conversations where we women were talking about sex and discussing "annoying" experiences with our partners, but in no case have I heard anyone come right out and call it assault during the discussion - it's hard to admit that the person you're with would commit sexual assault.)
In fact, if you told those men afterwards that what they had just done was sexual assault, they'd be horrified and defensive. As I said above, I think even a lot of women in that situation, especially if they loved their partners still, would feel uncomfortable with saying that. But what about that kind of situation ISN'T sexual assault? The woman clearly doesn't want it, says so, and the guy keeps begging for it and tries to slip it in (no pun intended!) even when he knows she doesn't want it. Or pretends he didn't notice that she was hating it.
Sometimes I wonder whether the label "rapist" or "sexual assault" is so loaded that no one could ever admit that they've done something like that out of ignorance for fear of the label sticking forever. I think if we want to change behaviour, we need to make sure that we're not sticking people with labels that will haunt them for the rest of their lives because they did something out of ignorance. I can forgive someone who hurts me if he does it out of ignorance and then recognizes it. But we're often afraid to tell men we know that something they've done is wrong, and afraid to attach labels like "rape" or "sexual assault" to their behaviour, because there's such a huge stigma attached to people who have done that. And a stigma attached to us for loving someone who might have done something like that.
So...I'm not sure what men can do about it. I doubt there's very much that a guy who "gets it" can do about the guys who don't. I don't think it's really part of masculine culture to sit around pouring your hearts out to each other about your sex lives, the way it is with women. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] I think it's probably up to us women to face our partners and tell them that when they beg us to have sex when we don't want it, or try to coerce us by starting sex when we have made it clear we don't feel like it right now and forcing us to make a choice between "getting it over with" or starting a fight or silent treatment or anger if we stand our ground and say no and push away, or do stuff "in the moment" that we have already told them we don't want to do and pretend they either don't hear our objection or pretend that they did something "by accident" - that they are assaulting us and making us not trust them.
Thu, 2006-12-21 06:00
#14
writer
Great post, Michelle, though I disagree with the end. There's lots to do.
Coercion and the diminishing of women is the social norm. Men can challenge that with their friends. Jokes. Conversation. References to the day's news. Talk of politics. When you are discussing issues about girlfriends, wives, mothers.
And when you talk with women, try not to [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=001138&p... this[/url].
Shift normal. You can do it.
[url=http://www.health.columbia.edu/docs/topics/sexual_violence/stop_rape.htm... Rape: What Men Can Do[/url]
[url=http://www.mencanstoprape.org/]mencanstoprape.org[/url]
[url=http://www.menagainstsexualviolence.org/whatcando.html]menagainstsexualv...
[ 21 December 2006: Message edited by: writer ]
Thu, 2006-12-21 06:42
#15
remind
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
[b]Coercion and the diminishing of women is the social norm. Men can challenge that with their friends... You can do it.[/b]
Yes, men can, and so can all sorts of other societal vehicles, such as TV, and perhaps even music videos, if there is a will.
Thu, 2006-12-21 11:19
#16
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]In an little bit of an offside, Medium, with Patricia Arquette, touched a bit on saying NO, to her husband on tonight's show. They were awake in the middle of the night, he wanted to she didn't. Finally after all the typical things a man says to his wife/g/f etc, she held firm and he respected her wishes and ceased what he had been trying in essence to force through cohersion, guilt, pity, etc. Men, and many women do not realize everytime that one gives into to such self esteem eroding, and emotional battery, it is forced sex against the will. I was pleasantly surprised to see such a thing on Prime Time.[/b]
I was thinking of the same thing when I started reading this thread. To me, the husband's attempts fell into the category of the sex sulk.
I'm not saying that such a sulk couldn't be coercive, especially if done in a passive agressive or otherwise manipulative manner, but in that case, I'm pretty sure he knew he would be turned down, and was making an unfunny joke re. his desperation.
(I'm also open to being told that I'm just blind to the dynamic at play here, because it's possible.)
Every relationship is different, and has its different dynamics. What's harmful in one can be harmless in another, and vice versa.
Thu, 2006-12-21 11:35
#17
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that giving in to begging or the "sex sulk" equates to having been sexually assaulted, otherwise I think pretty much every woman on the planet would be a sexual assault victim. (Hmm, on the other hand, maybe Dworkin had something there...)
That said, it's a pretty gross thing when you're lying next to someone who's giving you the silent treatment or is begging you to put out when you don't feel like it. It's unbelievably disrespectful and I would consider it a definite attack of head games and manipulation.
I think I'm at the point in my life now where I just won't put up with that shit anymore. And I'd love to see more women talking about it instead of society just assuming that's normal male-female interaction (or worse, blaming the woman for "withholding sex" or "using sex as a weapon" when she doesn't put out on demand).
That's one thing that has always gotten up my nose. Have you ever heard people advise women who are upset or angry at their husbands about something to "not use sex as a weapon" by withholding sex when they're angry or hurt? What the hell is that? Hello, I'm not withholding sex as a weapon. I'm withholding sex because I don't like having sex with someone who hurt my feelings earlier in the evening. It doesn't get me in the mood! The underlying assumption in such advice is the default position is sex on demand, and that when we don't do sex on demand, we are "withholding" it.
Thu, 2006-12-21 11:51
#18
(first thing I thought of after reading Michelle's post)
[url=http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060923colomb.... go on sex strike to stop Colombia gang violence [/url]
quote:
Women in Colombia have come up with an interesting new nonviolent tactic to combat gang killings in Colombia, which has suffered from endemic violence for many years.The girlfriends of gang members in one of the country’s most turbulent cities called a ‘sex strike’ aimed at ending a deadly local feud. Women in Pereira launched the “cross-legged strike” eleven days ago. Yesterday they called it “a success”.
Thu, 2006-12-21 12:12
#19
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]...The underlying assumption in such advice is the default position is sex on demand, and that when we don't do sex on demand, we are "withholding" it.[/b]
Thank Michelle for unfolding that thought process which brought you to the most excellent conclusion.
The default position is, and has been for generations, sex on demand. It is the unspoken tacit assumption that is fostered, and most times unwittingly.
However, because it is and has been that way, I perceive that it is the degree of the demand to which we are speaking of because what does "demand" denote? Power over another in this case it is sex.
The nth degree of "the demand" being made upon an individual for sexual gratification being sexual snuff movies, perhaps? The most simple being mental and emotional manipulation.
Most most often mental and emotional manipulation commences with passive aggressive behaviours and progress to outright agression and trancends into physical abuse.
The level to which one's sexual "demands" stop is the acceptable boundry between people, or society, is what is in question is it not?
Thu, 2006-12-21 18:53
#20
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that giving in to begging or the "sex sulk" equates to having been sexually assaulted, otherwise I think pretty much every woman on the planet would be a sexual assault victim.[/b]
Women are as capable of men of the "sex sulk".
Thu, 2006-12-21 20:03
#21
remind
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2007-01-04 07:23
#22
Scott Piatkowski
[url=http://alternet.org/story/46138/]This story[/url], linked to on rabble's front page yesterday, contains some interesting information on the businesses practices of some American night clubs. But, it also contains some "intoxicated women have it coming" stereotypes that you wouldn't expect to read in Women's e-News. For example:
quote:
While there are no statistics or national studies about the incidence of bars breaking laws and doing what they can to attract young and underage women, Gary Miller, a senior at New York University, said it's an open secret.The secret burst into the new York City headlines, however, in July 2006. In a second homicide that summer in the city involving a young woman who had been drinking to excess, 18-year-old Jennifer Moore left one of the city's most exclusive lounges intoxicated. Walking alone in the early morning hours along the city's West Side Highway, she was abducted and raped. Two days later she was found disemboweled in a dumpster in Weehawken, N.J.
Today's Alternet (where I originally read the story) contains some rather harsh reaction to the article.
[url=http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/46240/]Feminist Blogs Respond to Club Culture and Rape Article[/url]
quote:
On this thread the other day, it was repeatedly mentioned how anti-rape discussions tend to fall into victim-blaming, and the people who have the real power to stop rape--men who rape--are rarely mentioned as a target group for actually curtailing rape. Problem is that telling women to give up freedoms in order to stop rape is just more oppression of women.
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I know that's a bold claim, but I'm going to go even further: rapists are not just the leading, but in fact the only cause of rape. I've been turning this over in my mind for a couple of hours now, trying to poke holes in the logic, and I think I've got a solid case.Of course the patriarchy doesn't see it that way; under patriarchy, women are the ones who somehow cause themselves to get raped. They're always either wearing short skirts or walking down the street or sitting at home or holding their mouths funny or breathing or doing some goddamn thing that makes men rape them.
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Look, if Funk kept this to how clubs are using women as unpaid labor, I'd be right there with her. Marketers are forever getting people to do their scut work and their heavy duty marketing work for some throwaway swag. It's exploitive and it's slimy. But she filtered all of this through a slut-shaming, red-light lens, and ignored the bigger picture.
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In this approximately thousand-word article, the word rape appears three times, and the words murder, homicide, abducted, and disemboweled appear once each. One of the section headers says, ominously, "70,000 Date Rapes a Year." Those, I guess, are the "barroom risks" of which the article title speaks, as opposed to, say, the people who commit the acts—people who might also be drinking at "ladies' nights," in spite of not being ladies. The acts/risks are referenced abstractly, as if they are somehow eternal, like God maybe. Before man and woman, there was Rape, and Rape said, "Let there be life so that I might ruin it."
[url=http://www.alternet.org/stories/46250/]Readers Write: Women As Club Commodities[/url]
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Written by Liz Funk, the article asserts that some bar and nightclub tactics such as admitting underage women, offering women free drinks, and using women to attract business can put them at an increased risk for harassment or rape. Funk, who considers herself a feminist, quotes a source who says this is exploitation.To that, some readers gave applause, calling it "empowering," while others recoiled and said it "reinforces myths" and is a "disservice to women."
Below are excerpts of their comments, with a response from the 18-year-old author herself at the end.
Thu, 2007-01-04 09:05
#23
[url=http://pandagon.net/2006/12/28/real-consent-manifesto/]An interesting article from the blog of one of those commentators[/url] which is all about something I touched on in my above post. All I can say is, wow.
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The radical view I take of relationships and sex is that consent means not just consent to this sex act or that, but consent to the relationship continuing. And people are wary of this, because we believe that divorce is bad, etc. So you have situations like the one above where the young woman is thinking that she’s in a situation where there’s merely a sexual incompatibility that can be worked through, etc., and in truth, she’s a rape victim being manhandled by a sadist. But it makes it very hard for abuse victims to see what’s going on because they think they’re under an obligation to make it work out. What if she had felt free to say to him when he first started pestering for anal sex, “You know, I will never do that. If that’s a deal-breaker to you, please leave now. If not, never bring it up again, since you’ve heard my final word on it.” He probably still might have done it, but if she was in that mindset, maybe she would realize that she gave him an out and he chose, chose to rape her. If everyone around them understood that he was free at any time to drop her like a hot potato and find a woman who liked anal sex, then maybe they wouldn’t be making excuses for him.
Thu, 2007-01-04 12:04
#24
remind
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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b][url=http://pandagon.net/2006/12/28/real-consent-manifesto/]An interesting article from the blog of one of those commentators[/url] which is all about something I touched on in my above post. All I can say is, wow. [/b]
Thanks for the great link Michelle, her opinion and the resulting commentary were interesting on a variety of levels.
After your quoted snip was:
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I think most feminists I deal with think this is exactly the right stance to take on sexual relationships. I guess my point is to say that [i]it’s so very radical[/i] it’s no wonder that people get all confused.[b] We don’t want men to be able to hold their ability to walk out of a relationship over women’s heads as punishment for not submitting.[/b]In all the responses to her post, most if not all over looked the position that she was making, or at least what I think that she was making of; some women purpetuate the patriarchial notion that submission is required to have a relationship, not because of anything else other than the fear of the relationship failing and thereby the woman fails in societies expectations. The point I see, I believe is supported by her following commentaries:
This was her lead into the snippet you gave, Michelle:
[quote]But what if women let go of the idea that we need to have men approve of us? What do we have to lose? Conservatives say that we will lose their paychecks, but we can make our own. We will lose sex with them, but they will lose it with us. Women are still stuck in thinking that we gain more from male attention than they get from ours and so we have to sell ourselves out, if just a little, to get it. But what do we stand to lose?
Her conclusion:
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But in order to really get to that point, [b]we have to free people to the point that maintaining a relationship past the time that you’re not there because you want to be, but because you feel obligated to be there is wrong[/b]. Which, to my mind, will help women a lot more in the long run anyway, considering we’re the ones who end up taking on 75% of the relationship maintenance work anyway.
But I am not quite sure how she feels this clarifies, either the difference between 3rd wave or the backlash to feminism that she starts off with.