Advertising, internet porn, and the kids

Hey, I totally missed this thread when it was first posted. I was looking for threads to post on the front page and even though this one has no responses, I really liked the opening post so I put it on the rabble front page. (Should be there in an hour or so.)

Some of the commercials really do promote the idea that women are supposed to please men, without too much in return. I think this adds to the impression a lot of people have that in relationships, women owe sex to men and that they're "withholding" if they don't put out on demand.

Its not just airbrushing and plastic boobs. Models are adjusted by computer. Neck lengthened,legs proportioned etc etc. There is no way that the majority of women can compete with composites that are not whole women but the bits of women,one's feet,another's butt etc.

There are huge industries that depend upon their profit by keeping women insecure about their appearance and attitude toward sex. For younger folks,reality is not an option.

Look at your local newscast. All the talking heads are arranged on adjustable stools so that they appear the same height. In TV shows and fims, short actors are made to appear taller.

So, conformity is normalised,reinforcing the insecurity of shorter or taller people. Short women with ruined feet from wearing heels all the time, overly agressive short men,tall people with permanent stoops and ruined posture. All trying to fit in to an artificial concept of normalcy.

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There are huge industries that depend upon their profit by keeping women insecure about their appearance and attitude toward sex. For younger folks,reality is not an option.

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Is this something that only affects women?

I get a dozen ads for viagra and penis enlargers in my spam emails every day. Many of these ads have subject lines which insult me and claim I am not pleasing my woman because I have a tiny penis.

I also regularly see ads for "enzytes" that will somehow make my penis bigger on mainstream TV.

Many magazines, both porn and mainstream, also have ads for penis enlargers in both mechanical and pill form.

And yes many of the dolls of girls (like the Bratz) are in bizarrre "idealized" proportions, but at the same time, all the kids dolls that I see of boys have rock-hard abs and are in perfect shape.

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Addiction to porn also greatly affects real life expectations men have of women and creates very dysfunctional relationships in which the woman always suffers the affects of those expectations. Afterall how can we ever live up to airbrushed bodies and giant fake breasts? We can't.

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I know many women who enjoy watching porn with or without their male partners.

Why must it be that " the woman always suffers the affects of those expectations." Are you saying that women don't ever desire more or fantasize about different things than what their male partner has to offer them?

In my opinion, when one partner in a relationship is turning to porn for sexual relief instead of to their partner, it is usually because they have sexual fantasies and desires which they are ashamed of sharing with their partner, because they expect the partner will not share their fantasies, but instead will disapprove and be judgemental.

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Addiction to porn also greatly affects real life expectations men have of women and creates very dysfunctional relationships in which the woman always suffers the affects of those expectations. Afterall how can we ever live up to airbrushed bodies and giant fake breasts? We can't.

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No Dana, this is what I said. Not the things you attributed to me. Are you trying to say Dana, that men are just as discriminated against and objectified as women in porn and media?

No absolutely not, they are the same things. I'm a little testy after that last thread so I apologize for coming across as harsh. But I do not agree though, that men and women in both porn and the media are treated with equal discrimination. On all your other points, I do agree. If it's worth anything at all I once received an e-mail that said: "_______ (my real name), Grow A Bigger Penis By 5 pm!!"

Last I checked I didn't have one.

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Originally posted by Dana Larsen:
[b]

I was not trying to say that "men are just as discriminated against and objectified as women in porn and media." But I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that statement either.
[/b]

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These ads, videos, and all this culture are not about sex. They are about subordination of women to a predetermined role of service. It reminds me of harems, where it is said women are selected from a young age, groomed, and trained to believe that the highest and only duty is to please their Master.

For a period in the 60s and especially the 70s, it seemed that such objectification and degradation of women stood a chance of being rejected on a mass basis, by a whole generation of women. Maybe I'm blind, but I can't see that any more. Nor do I see the same rate of progress for women making breakthroughs toward equal treatment in the home, at work, and in the life of the community as we witnessed in those days. It's as if the wheel is making a historical "correction" in the wrong direction.

To say, Dana, that you "wouldn't necessarily disagree" with that statement (that men and women are equally the object of discrimination and objectification) saddens and disappoints me - putting on a par spam V1aGrA ads for men with a whole cultural onslaught against women aimed at keeping them in "their place". It tells me how far we have gone in the wrong direction.

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

To say, Dana, that you "wouldn't necessarily disagree" with that statement (that men and women are equally the object of discrimination and objectification) saddens and disappoints me - putting on a par spam V1aGrA ads for men with a whole cultural onslaught against women aimed at keeping them in "their place". It tells me how far we have gone in the wrong direction.[/b]

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I wouldn't agree that men and women are equally the object of discrimination and objectification, but I believe they both suffer the consequences of the kind of attitudes that have been discussed here.

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It reminds me of harems, where it is said women are selected from a young age, groomed, and trained to believe that the highest and only duty is to please their Master.

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The "harem" system you describe discriminates against men as well as women. That kind of system is about control over others regardless of sex.

It might seem like men have the advantage in a society with harems, where some men have such absolute power and control or even ownership over others.

However, in a society where some few dominant/powerful men have the power to keep a harem of many women, you can be sure that the vast majority men are also being dominated and their lives equally controlled by the powerful minority.

All harems must have their eunichs as well. The eunich is the necessary other half of the harem system. Both men and women are victims under that kind of system. That power and control over human beings, to treat humans like cattle, to control their lives so absolutely, exploits both men and women.

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To say, Dana, that you "wouldn't necessarily disagree" with that statement (that men and women are equally the object of discrimination and objectification) saddens and disappoints me -

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The question was if men and women are equally objects of objectification in "porn" and "the media." Both terms are quite vague really, which is why I said I wouldn't necessarily disagree.

But are you saying that "porn" and "the media" generally show accurate portrayals of men, and are only inaccurate in portraying women women?

Also, there's all sorts of "porn" out there, and all kinds of "media."

I assume that "porn" means images of people having sex or in a sexually aroused state.

There's politically aware porn, there's degrading porn, there's gay porn, there's amateur porn, there's religious porn, there's sacred porn.

When someone says "porn is degrading to women" I always wonder exactly what images they consider to be degrading, and what images of human sexuality are not degrading? I think the keys are consent and mutual enjoyment.

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a whole cultural onslaught against women aimed at keeping them in "their place".

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I think that those who want women "in their place" also want men "in their place."

I think the root of this idea is that human beings don't belong to themselves, they belong to the State or to God (often seen as the same thing).

In this kind of top-down hierarchical structure, most of the leaders are usually men. But this doesn't mean that men aren't equally exploited, since only a tiny minority of men belong to the ruling class, and the vast majority of men are just as exploited as women. Just like the women in the harem and the men who are made into eunichs.

I have to agree that advertising is built around sex and the objectification of women. I have become particularly aware of this since becoming a father to my first daughter (that was 9 years ago and now I have 3 girls!). I don’t think most people are jaded by advertising. I think most people who participate in communities like rabble are jaded by advertising, but I think most “average” people off the street don’t give much thought to how advertising corrupts our minds. I think advertising does terrible things for body image; there’s so much pressure on girls and women in particular (and men now too) to look a certain way and its starting so young. My oldest is 9 in grade 4 and it’s a constant “battle” for my wife and I to make sure that she is getting objective information so she can decides things for herself. I’ll tell you one thing that helps to counter the corruption of advertising in a huge way: don’t subscribe to cable or satellite. We got rid of cable about 6 or 7 months ago and it’s made a huge difference in our family life; my kids aren’t always wanting to be conspicuous consumers, they’ve toned down a tonne in terms of the types of toys they want (still like Bratz, but now that they can’t watch the cartoon, it’s just another toy) and they read all the time. Another thing I’ve done is cut out the comic books and magazines, they have to read books that are suitable for their reading level and are a little bit challenging.

Sex and the perfect good looking person with the perfect body are every where. It’s very sad. I think a lot of people realize that the ads with the perfect people are just fiction and basically junk, but those ads are absolutely everywhere. You never see a magazine with a normal looking person on the cover, even newspapers that are reporting relevant news stories only show pictures of good looking people. Everyone is so concerned with their looks (I know I’m quite insecure about it) and looks are starting to matter more and more. Recent studies by academics in the US have indicated that the better looking a person is, the more money they make; and this is referring to business professionals and people in “average” jobs, not movies stars, athletes or other celebrities. I think things are getting worse for men – there’s a growing expectation amongst men to look like Adonis. BUT, it’s far, far worse for women. I think men are genetically hard-wired to look for physical attractiveness more than women, and being that we live in a male-dominated culture; we’ve set the unrealistic and unfair standards for women. I find it so sad and disturbing that so many girls, literally girls under 18, are dressing like the 22 years old I used to chase at pub crawls years ago and looking 3 to 5 years older than they actually are. I don’t remember it being this bad when I was in high school and I graduated in the early 90’s. It was bad enough, but not this bad. Girls didn’t come to school with sexy tattoos on their lower backs, wearing low-cut shirts that show too much cleavage and the belly-button area and low-cut pants to show off their tattoos. I see it all the time now when I pick my little ones up from school, or drop them off – a lot of GIRLS are dressing sexy. It’s bad enough that our society tells women that they’re supposed to look sexy all the time, but little girls?

On the porn issue, I have to agree with Stargazer on this one; there’s no way porn discriminates against men as much as it does women, there’s no way. Pay a few bucks to any of thousands of porn sites on the net and see how much porn you find that discriminates against men? Sure there will be some, but nowhere near as much as women.

I think as progressives, that a tool we can arm children with is media literacy, an aged term but one that holds more and more relevance in the internet porn-at-a-click-of-a-button universe.

I'll reserve commenting on the issue of porn, as I think the larger issue in this thread is about advertising and children, as well as adults.

What I think happens is that some of us, myself included, think we're "above it all" and that advertising doesn't affect us. For some of us it's true some of the time, we never shop in fast food places, or in chain stores, therefore the ads are irrelevant, but the messages about body image (that have already been talked about here), never mind issues of consumerism and consumption enter our brains and fester there along with everything else.

The truth is, we aren't "above it all" and the best we can do is talk about how to mediate it's effect. At least, until the Revolution. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

FYI, when I was 9 years old, in 1975, my girlfriends and I talked about how much easier it was to lose weight before you hit the "double digits" meaning 10 YEARS OLD and UP(!) and would critique each others' bodies, and of other girls in our grade, sometimes meanly, sometimes as a matter of fact. I'm not saying this was good, but we did it. So I refrain from the "it's so much worse now!" rhetoric, only because I would hate to sound like a conservative old fart. Not that I'm calling anyone here that!

Yes the clothing styles for young women and girls is more revealing. But I would argue that each generation of 30+ somethings and up have said that about "young people these days". As a feminist, I want to know what tools and smart ideas are we giving kids, girls and boys, and teens of all genders, to combat the crap and to reject "female as passive object"?

Well, yours truly would normally not post here, given its history. But as a working class papa who raised two daughters and, therefore, has been somewhat kept in the loop of what many of the younger folk are going through and thinking about, I think this is really important to discuss the experiences of what’s going on out there.

I too, thanks in part to my trade, keep up, to a minimal degree, on what’s happening in music and television, and I’m quite amazed that what was easily considered restricted entertainment in the 60s and 70s seems to be almost prime time today.

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I was amazed at the different types of what I consider to be complete objectification of women, and complete indulgence towards male libido.

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Actually, I think it’s gone way, way beyond all that. It’s at the point where it’s at the outright commodification of every aspect of human sexuality and the humans that engage in it.

It’s gone from simply objectifying women especially, but men also, to superficially arouse audiences to blatant promotion, to the point of worship, that sexuality, or images of it, are practically for making money and gaining social status. It’s like that’s what the ultimate universal value of sex and romance or eroticism is all about—like some kind of weird capitalistic religion.

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The girl-on-girl kissing (which encourages girls to put on displays for an audience of guys, whether bisexuality interests them or not - it's the way to tittilate!),

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I’m sure no expert on any of this stuff, but actually it seems like more young women are associating lesbian/bisexuality with personal power and freedom. According to a [url=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm]recent US study,[/url]women’s sexual arousal is much less focused on gender-specifics (as in physical features) and sexual orientation than men. In other words, women are more “sexually fluid.”

While that might not come as much of a surprise for many people, it seems, according to [url=http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ausbinet/biwomen.htm]various feminist studies [/url]I found on a quick net search, say [url=http://www.nypress.com/19/11/news&columns/bretliebendorfer.cfm]more women are using bisexuality or lesbianism [/url]as a way of identifying themselves on their own terms—sort of a statement of sexual freedom, or may be not necessarily needing a male for sexual satisfaction.

From a democratic perspective, this creates a problem in that women start to associate freedom purely with being “sexually liberated” and able to command some sort of respect or status based on personal sexuality—not from being members of a community of people interdependent for maintaining mutual well-being via mutual respect and cooperation. That’s scary for the future.

And although the situation is different in how it affects men, it seems the results could be the same, in that the supposed power of the male libido and sexual performance and prowess is becoming the main value in what supposedly makes a man a good person—not being an honest contributor to the well being of the community.

[url=http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=4899100]This report[/url] claims huge numbers of younger guys are getting prescriptions for Viagra and other “enhancement” drugs, even though they don’t have any diagnosed sexual problems. Rather, it’s because they supposedly see these as a way to become better in the sack and give their dates/girlfriends better orgasms.

I know many will say this has been around for a long time, and I don't know how accurate or complete these reports are. But it seems now more than ever the idea is being pushed that personal sexuality among younger folks is the only real way to identify and gain respect.

And it’s not that I think our kids are buying this all wholesale and that they will become mindless obedient human machines with hyper-active glands. But I am concerned that the prolonged imposition of this on people, without other media to show them the broader reality of living is having a very weakening effect on community and democracy as well as personal dignity.

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More disturbing to me on Music Video chanels are the videos themselves. I happened to see a video of a group called the "Pussy Cat Dolls." Check it out sometime. And I also remember that while teen girls repudiated Avril Levine, I noticed that for a time, high school aged girls were doing thier eyes like Avril's, all the same.

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It isn't just that these groups/singers are teaching our daughters and sisters to hike up their skirts a little more and to apply six different layers of eyeshadow before leaving the house, but they're also filling their heads with some catchy tunes that contain very harmful lyrics.

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I'm telling you loosen up my buttons baby (Uh huh)
But you keep fronting (Uh)
Saying what you going to do to me (Uh huh)
But I ain't seen nothing (Uh)

I'm telling you loosen up my buttons baby (Uh huh)
But you keep fronting (Uh)
Saying what you going to do to me (Uh huh)
But I ain't seen nothing (Uh)

Typical
Hardly the type I fall for
I'm liking the physical
Don't leave me asking for more
I'm a sexy mama (Mama)
Who knows just how to get what I want and (Want and)
What I want to do is spring this on you (On you)
Back up all of the things that I told you (Told you)

You been saying all the right things all night long
But I can't seem to get you over here to help take this off
Baby, can't you see?
How these clothes are fitting on me
And the heat coming from this beat
I'm about to blow
I don't think you know

I'm telling you loosen up my buttons baby (Uh huh)
But you keep fronting (Uh)
Saying what you going to do to me (Uh huh)
But I ain't seen nothing (Uh)

I'm telling you loosen up my buttons baby (Uh huh)
But you keep fronting (Uh)
Saying what you going to do to me (Uh huh)
But I ain't seen nothing (Uh)

You say you're a big boy
But I can't agree
'Cause the love you said you had
Ain't been put on me
I wonder
If I'm just too much for you
Wonder
If my kiss don't make you just
Wonder
What I got next for you
What you want to do? (Do)

Take a chance to recognize that this could be yours
I can see, just like most guys that your game don't please
Baby, can't you see?
How these clothes are fitting on me
And the heat coming from this beat
I'm about to blow
I don't think you know

I'm telling you loosen up my buttons baby (Uh huh)
But you keep fronting (Uh)
Saying what you going to do to me (Uh huh)
But I ain't seen nothing (Uh)

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This is just one of hundreds of sexually explicit songs out there that ten year old girls across the continent are immersing themselves in.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Hey, I totally missed this thread when it was first posted. I was looking for threads to post on the front page and even though this one has no responses, I really liked the opening post so I put it on the rabble front page. (Should be there in an hour or so.)

Some of the commercials really do promote the idea that women are supposed to please men, without too much in return. I think this adds to the impression a lot of people have that in relationships, women owe sex to men and that they're "withholding" if they don't put out on demand.[/b]

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Bull... I'm a guy... Here's my take... Your a loser who will die a lonely virgin without our product...

THe Axe promo truck came through town... It was all cheesecake & fluff... At the end you had to press a button for the "Holograph" (rear projection set up wiith woman in another tube thing. The objlect was to get her to orgasim from the scent & pass out... THe girl escourting me through had to explain the punch line... Gee I guess it was so funny I forgot to laugh...

This add campagn HAD to be written by women loke you... This will appeal to the average male... No We will take the free sample & ROFLMAO.

Then that's why I'm here to dispell the Neo-con Feminist Myths.

Mythbuster

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Originally posted by jester:
[b]Its not just airbrushing and plastic boobs. Models are adjusted by computer. Neck lengthened,legs proportioned etc etc. There is no way that the majority of women can compete with composites that are not whole women but the bits of women,one's feet,another's butt etc.

There are huge industries that depend upon their profit by keeping women insecure about their appearance and attitude toward sex. For younger folks,reality is not an option.[/b]

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Then would you mind explaining what a BBW is??
If some 500 lbs woman is cut & paste please enlighten me why someone would airbrush small breasts & big flabs of fat??? Or the Wrinkles seen on the Granny Photos? Yea they must take young girls & age them right???

I wonder If I can post links here Maybe a reality check is BADLY needed...

Now that said are SOME Air brushed? Yep. Some "edited" yep. However the problem here is kids
are protected from seeing REAL women nude.
From learning that 100% of the planet is
both sexy & butt ugly. To someone out there I'm the sexyest stud on earth. To others I'm a fat ugly nerd.

Mythbuster

Hey there are some really crazy folks out there on the net:

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Yea keep those kiddies entertained watching the latest serial killer flick... When was the klast time a network got fined for showing Freddie or Jason kill another 10 people? Yet Janet jacksoon shows a breast & you folks darn near die & go into a PMS frenzy...

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Actually, most folks I know didn't raise much of a fuss. Ms. Jackson is actually quite an attractive woman! What you don't get is that it was such a crass and non-approved publicity stunt by her and Timberpunk that the network bosses got pissed off.

As for the violent horror flicks on TV, you're right. The problem there is you seem to have been watching too many of them.

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The Quicker we kick you Radical NeoCons to the other side of the border the better this country will be...

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Considering you're an American, you should keep them where they are.

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It's not all airbrushed & fake breasts...I know I've seen it all.. Even severely obease 80 year olds uglyer than dirt.

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Sounds like you have (and the latter part is what you seem to like best). I might bet that porn and slasher flicks are about all you watch.

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Lets see the last time anyone was "shocked" about seeing a "sexy" woman posing was... 6000 BC.

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Right, and I suppose you were there too.

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You mat want to see someone about your issues concerning your obvious self hatred...

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Before you get too worried about her self-hatred, maybe you should start worrying about your self-indulgence.

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Then that's why I'm here to dispell the Neo-con Feminist Myths

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Neo-con Feminist? Condi Rice? Never mind. I don't wanna know.

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Lemme guess your a blonde?

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While you're guessing, maybe the mods can get into a little boot action (and no, I don’t mean booty either).

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
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No Dana, this is what I said. Not the things you attributed to me. Are you trying to say Dana, that men are just as discriminated against and objectified as women in porn and media?[/b]

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Yep he is... 99.999999999999% of the Men in porn have Huge dicks, can stay hard for 12 hours, Shoot gallons of semen at will & have Rock hard bodies...

Oh and they also get paid LESS!!!! Than the women... A Guy can earn about $500 PER FILM. A woman can earn 1500 an hour. Only one guy Ron Jeremy has ever lasted in the business & yet be fat.

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Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

These ads, videos, and all this culture are not about sex. They are about subordination of women to a predetermined role of service. It reminds me of harems, where it is said women are selected from a young age, groomed, and trained to believe that the highest and only duty is to please their Master.

For a period in the 60s and especially the 70s, it seemed that such objectification and degradation of women stood a chance of being rejected on a mass basis, by a whole generation of women. Maybe I'm blind, but I can't see that any more. Nor do I see the same rate of progress for women making breakthroughs toward equal treatment in the home, at work, and in the life of the community as we witnessed in those days. It's as if the wheel is making a historical "correction" in the wrong direction.

To say, Dana, that you "wouldn't necessarily disagree" with that statement (that men and women are equally the object of discrimination and objectification) saddens and disappoints me - putting on a par spam V1aGrA ads for men with a whole cultural onslaught against women aimed at keeping them in "their place". It tells me how far we have gone in the wrong direction.[/b]

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ROFLMAO!!!! What bullcrap... you need to get a refund as who ever fed you this sh*t robbed you blind. If it was all about "subordinating" women then a guy could walk into a strip club & the dancers would theow money at the customers.
lap dances would be free. Prostitutes would pay Men to do them.

Ya know whenever I hear a woman say this sh*t
they are always butt ugly & could not get a man if she paid them... As for women well I bet you get pleanty of pity sex at the lesbian bar.

In short you arepart of the group looking up through the glass ceiling & up other women's skirts.

I wish your segemnt of Feminism would hurry up & die out... Unfortunalty as long as there are girls growing up to be like you this will never happen...

Such is life...

Mythbuster
Harsh, Rash, But 100% Truthfull.

Oh BTW even up here over you girls there is a glass ceiling.

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Originally posted by Mythbuster67:
[b]LOL!!! What garbage.... Lemme guess your a blonde?
Yea keep those kiddies entertained watching the latest serial killer flick... When was the klast time a network got fined for showing Freddie or Jason kill another 10 people? Yet Janet jacksoon shows a breast & you folks darn near die & go into a PMS frenzy...

The Quicker we kick you Radical NeoCons to the other side of the border the better this country will be...

Oh as to the last paragraph When was you born?
Lets see the last time anyone was "shocked" about seeing a "sexy" woman posing was... 6000 BC.

You mat want to see someone about your issues concerning your obvious self hatred...

Mythbuster[/b]

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Wow. Okay, so, unsurprisingly, Mythbuster is taking a hike.

In the beginning someone asked how destructive could porn be, or images of sexuality? I think the issue here is that individuals only get "turned on" by things that we have been socially constructed to be turned on by. If not, argue that? Someone will say that sex is beautiful, or the body is beautiful, but society has chosen a certain image for us to watch and see as beautiful, the majority of hetero porn will have skinny, tanned, waxed, blond girls, if not blond they still have the other characteristics. I think porn has really ruined sexuality for wimmin, and men as well.

It was also mentioned about how sad it is for men to keep a "hard on" during his filming, well they have wimmin hired to run in between filming to arose him, get him turned on again, so I wouldn't pity him that much.

I guess I must say that porn also makes my stomach sick, really good book to read is "female chauvinist pigs" by ariel levy. About how our culture now has girls flashing every "part" or doing things with their friends just to get a Girls Gone Wild hat or t-shirt (one example) and how a lot of girls are saying that this is somehow liberating, it really makes me sad, most of the feminists of the 60's must depressed! =/

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In case anyone needs to hear this, of course I'm against any portrayal (pornographic or otherwise) of lack of consent (which includes anyone underaged or appearing underaged) and actual pain, etc.

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The term "consent" is something usually glossed over quickly in these debates, but I think it is something that has to be seriously addressed.

I place a high premium on the deffinition. I think one has to. For example, I don't consider it to be consensual sex if there's co-ersion involved. Many people might think I mean threats of violence by coersion. But, it's also coersion if a woman or man is having sex to pay the rent, or buy drugs. At least it is in my mind.

There was an instance years ago, in the infancy of the internet where a woman "consented" to be kidnapped, tortured and killed by a man. Which she was. She even left a note to her family saying that's what she wanted.

Obviously, the man who killed her can't claim she consented. Consent can only come from a person of sound mind and I don't think anyone would say she was in possession of one at the time. That's an extreme example. But I have had contact with women that would "consent" to much less extreme activity, but all the same struck me as not all together there in the head, and I would avoid them because I am not sure the activity would conform to my deffinition of consent.

This also translates to porn. How much porn is actually consentual? How much is coersion through economics or addiction? And I wonder about consent issues with the young women who appear in some videos we see on Much Music, etc.

The link, "Good for Her" had a seminar on "Kink 101" and the synopsis of the seminar that included this:

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Learn how to translate sexual desires from fantasy to reality by exploring role-play, D&S and communicating consent.

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Fantasy and reality are two other key things to come to grips with when we discuss sex, porn and the mainstream.

It seems to me it's a big stumbling block for many. There are those that would look upon BDSM activity-- and they would be from the left and the right-- as dangerous because it is indicative of real hidden mysogyny or misanthropy which is an unfair, blanket extrapolation of what may or may not be in another person's mind. I tend to think that these people are unable to separate fantasy and reality in their own minds-- similar, perhaps, to sexual predators who either can't or won't.

The damaging aspects of sexuality portrayed in pornography and in the mainstream media seems to me to be the sometimes deliberate, sometimes thoughtless disregard of what constitutes consent, and the pure commercial comodification of something that should be a lot more special to us.

Unfortunately, most of the opposition to this is frequently as thoughtless, so we make little progress.

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Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
[b]

Many prostitutes have sex in order to pay the rent. Are they coerced into the sex? [/b]

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This argument is made quite often.

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[b]
In some cases they certainly are, but there are also cases where this is an employment decision someone has made quite willingly and without coercion.[/b]

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Not to sound too glib, as sex work is physical, often dangerous work (please note that as we move into sex work in general, issues pertaining to porn and fantasy shift a bit), but many fast food workers, factory workers, undocumented workers like fruit pickers, homeworkers and live-in caregivers may also feel coerced, without much choice, and doing what they need to do to pay the rent. I would concur that their feelings reflect their reality. These are all difficult, at times exploitative jobs.

Careful when you talk about misogyny, as this assumes, again, that we're talking about sex work for consumption by het males only. This glosses over huge portions of the sex industry, such as porn for gay men, which faces very few of these arguments and issues, interestingly. And from what I've heard about BDSM porn and sex work, it's majority men who are being sub. I got no facts or links to back that up though.

with regards to the earlier post that dealt with the song by the pussy cat dolls- I disagree.
Alot of main stream culture portrays women in an objectified, passive manner- look at all those videos where women are basically background dancing props. Any song or video where a woman is speaking of her desires and her wish to see them fulfilled actively is a positive thing. Its an issue of women having voice- a central theme in feminism. This singer is potentially calling someone on their fake display of male prowess that we've all been discussing.

As for our gremlins grumbling about porn actress getting paid more that men- to me that smacks of risk or social unacceptability pay, meaning that porn actress are engaging in acts or displaying the reality of female desire (albeit in a objectified and negative manner) that a proper woman shouldn't for mass consumption. Our culture has always put more weight of virtue on women than on men.

[ 18 February 2007: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]

[ 18 February 2007: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]