quote:
Originally posted by Piper-519:
[b]Do you want the entire middle east to be under that influence? Oh, and have a second holocaust once radical Islamists realise that nucs are more effective then suicide bombers in Israel?[/b]
This overlooks the not insignificant point that the only country in the Middle East which currently has a nuclear arsenal is Israel.
quote:
Originally posted by Secret Agent Style:
[b]
You may be wrong, as well as prone to using straw man arguments and leading questions, but at least you're consistent at parroting US government propaganda. Congratulations for being a tool.[/b]
I generally avoid these discussions but...
I often wonder how your, and those who share your passion in this matter, ridged opinion on Afghanistan is any different than those that you are arguing with.
To you, we are wrong. Period. End of story. to be in Afghanistan. Canada and the west should pull out yesterday and never again use our military in a combat role.
Just like to the right you are wrong. Period. End of Story. to question our involvement in Afghanistan.
Personally, I'm more than a little ambivalent about this. I suspect most Canadians are. No one, outside of the odd cranky crackpot, bigot and morAn, thinks that war is a good thing. We don't want to see Canadians killing people, or getting killed.
But the Taliban are/were NASTY, NASTY, NASTY people who, when they weren't plotting to take down the west in the name of Allah, were busy beating their women to death for getting raped. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get too upset that these people have been removed from power.
There is no doubt that the west has made lots of errors in Afghanistan. Lots and lots and lots. It was likely the west's inactivity in the country after the Afghan/Soviet war ended that allowed the culture of warlords to take hold in Afghanistan, which, ultimately lead to the Taliban seizing control and thrusting the country back into the dark ages. But that doesn't mean we should try to repeat the mistake again. Because that's what would happen if all western troops were pulled out of the country tomorrow. The warlords would take over and...get out the burqa gals, get away from that book and shut the....up.
Do I think that Afghanistan has been handled perfectly? Um, no. Do I know what to do about it moving forward?
I have no bloody clue. I suspect few of us do. Including you.
quote:
Originally posted by dgrollins:
But the Taliban are/were NASTY, NASTY, NASTY people who, [b]when they weren't plotting to take down the west in the name of Allah[/b], were busy beating their women to death for getting raped.
Emphasis added. To my knowledge there is still nothing to suggest that the Taliban themselves ever engaged in international terrorism or had ambitions beyond what they regard as their traditional tribal lands. It's true that they allowed Bin Laden and associates to operate in Afghanistan. There is also reason to believe that when push came to shove they were prepared to give him up but, by that time, the U.S. didn't want to hear about it.
Just to keep things in perspective. One of the Bush administration's tactics in support of endless war has been to try and blur the distinctions between a number of different groups and pretend that they're all the same. I don't think we should fall for it.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: pogge ]
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]One of the Bush administration's tactics in support of endless war has been to try and blur the distinctions between a number of different groups and pretend that they're all the same. I don't think we should fall for it.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: pogge ][/b]
Fair enough. And please don't mistake my ambivalence with support for Bush.
However, at this point, I don't think it really matters why we are in Afghanistan, or whether the original reasons for becoming involved were legitimate. It really only matters that we [i] are [/i] there and it [i] is [/i]a mess.
So what do we do about it? As I've stated, pulling out is akin to handing power back over to the warlords and a return to Taliban rule would seem likely. Personally, I don't want to see that happen--from a security standpoint (I think the Taliban makes the world a more dangerous place) and from a what's best for the people of Afghanistan perspective (see point above about the Taliban being NASTY).
All that said, I understand that the west's involvement in that part of the world is also making the world a more dangerous place.
It's a classic dammed if you do, dammed if you don't thing, really.
My issue, and what prompted me to post, is the attitude I see--from both sides of the spectrum--that it's possible to see clearly through the mud.
Nothing like erecting a bunch of racist stereotypes as a strawman ...
quote:
I have no bloody clue. I suspect few of us do. Including you.
But you think going into a foreign land to kill for the empire might be a suitable approach and now that we are there, we might as well keep our jack boots on and kill for God, W, and Harper, right? I mean, not having a bllody clue is no reason to stop the blood letting.
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]Nothing like erecting a bunch of racist stereotypes as a strawman ...But you think going into a foreign land to kill for the empire might be a suitable approach and now that we are there, we might as well keep our jack boots on and kill for God, W, and Harper, right? I mean, not having a bllody clue is no reason to stop the blood letting.[/b]
No, that isn't even remotely what I said. What I'm saying--not that you are demonstrating any desire to listen--is that pulling out would likely lead to one of the most repressive groups in human history regaining control of the country. That group, the Taliban, would then move quickly to take away the rights and dignity of half of the country's population.
I'm not delusional enough to think that the west went into Afghanistan to liberate the Afghan people from the regressive, REPULSIVE Taliban government. We went in to protect our own interests. However, one happy outcome of it was that the Taliban was removed from power.
There is one justifiable reason for war--let's call it the Nazi Bastards rule--to remove a government that is guilty of widespread crimes against people.
Forget 9/11. Forget Bush. Forget Blair. Instead, look at the history of the Taliban and Afghanistan in the late '90s up to Aug. 2001. Then tell me the world isn't a better place without them in power. Show me how the people of Afghanistan--forgetting the west's interests completely--are better off under the rule of the hate-filled, misogynistic, viscous and theocratic Taliban?
quote:
There is one justifiable reason for war--let's call it the Nazi Bastards rule--to remove a government that is guilty of widespread crimes against people.
Never happens. We (the wealthy west) are quite content with governments which are guilty of widespread crimes against people. We feted Suharto in Vancouver, send Stockwell Day slithering over to Israel to fellate Likud, overthrew Aristide and installed the Ton ton macout (sp?), and send trade reps to China to do bidness.
Only when those governments are guilty of crimes against [i]our[/i] interests do we act.
Canadian troops are currently supporting the warlords, rapists, and mass murderers of the Northern Alliance against the Afghan people. I don't see how they can possibly be better off now. We've merely changed prison guards.
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
[b]Canadian troops are currently supporting the warlords, rapists, and mass murderers of the Northern Alliance against the Afghan people. I don't see how they can possibly be better off now. We've merely changed prison guards.[/b]
OK...but what would make the Afghan people better off? Withdrawal would essentially cause a full-fledged civil war, don't you think?
Peacekeeping, maybe, but there has to be a peace to keep. I'm not sure there is right now. And even then the forces would be viewed as "occupiers" by those that wished them gone. If you moved to a traditional peacekeeping role, I suspect you would just be changing the name of the operation, rather than changing what actually goes on.
Look, I'm not a pigheaded hawk. I'm just not a naive dove either.
quote:
Originally posted by BetterRed:
[b]Hey, Pied Piper. I see you've got your talking points right out of US right-wing blogs.Well answer me this: Who was it that armed, trained and abetted Osama in 1980's? USA or USSR?
Who was he trained to fight?Just another one of the dirty Cold War tactics that came back to bite Americans in the a$$.
Oh and during the Cold War, US' relentless support of brutal Israeli war machine has greatly alienated secular Arabs and made them ready recruits for radical Islam by 1980's.[/b]
Ohhhh name calling.
And your getting your info right out of left wing, apologist sources. So, your point is?
The USA trained Osama's troops in the 80's. So? Different time, different administration, different circumstances.
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]Emphasis added. To my knowledge there is still nothing to suggest that the Taliban themselves ever engaged in international terrorism or had ambitions beyond what they regard as their traditional tribal lands. It's true that they allowed Bin Laden and associates to operate in Afghanistan. There is also reason to believe that when push came to shove they were prepared to give him up but, by that time, the U.S. didn't want to hear about it.
Just to keep things in perspective. One of the Bush administration's tactics in support of endless war has been to try and blur the distinctions between a number of different groups and pretend that they're all the same. I don't think we should fall for it.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: pogge ][/b]
Got a source there genius?
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
[b]Canadian troops are currently supporting the warlords, rapists, and mass murderers of the Northern Alliance against the Afghan people. I don't see how they can possibly be better off now. We've merely changed prison guards.[/b]
Ever been to, or know anyone who's been to Afghanistan? Doubt it. Do you know how much better off people are there, without having to worry about being beaten, tortured or killed for not being an Islamo-fascist? Don't think so.
Don't confuse the TALIBAN killing their own people as something that the Coalition is doing.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: Piper-519 ]
quote:
Originally posted by Piper-519:
The USA trained Osama's troops in the 80's. So? Different time, different administration, different circumstances.
Same American foreign policy. Support one side in a civil war, regardless of the morality of that side or of being so engaged.
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
[b]Same American foreign policy. Support one side in a civil war, regardless of the morality of that side or of being so engaged.[/b]
Nope.
Support the lesser evil of the time (the Muj) to fight the bigger evil of the time (USSR).
But I don't expect those of you with the international awareness of a peanut to understand that. So, I'll simplify it for you...
Taliban = Bad
USSR = Bigger Bad
Bad fight Bigger Bad for the common Good.
Anyone want any clarification?
I think you meant to type:
Mujahideen = Bad
Rather than Taliban. Unless of course you are involved in a long term project to rewrite Afghan/Soviet history.
But no more clarification is necessary, Piper-519. In fact, that is all the information out of you that I require.
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
[b]I think you meant to type:Mujahideen = Bad
Rather than Taliban. Unless of course you are involved in a long term project to rewrite Afghan/Soviet history.
But no more clarification is necessary, Piper-519. In fact, that is all the information out of you that I require.[/b]
No you don't...missing one thing.
Your a scum sucking, cock smoking socialist faggot with shit for brains.
Just like everyone else on this site.
quote:
Originally posted by Piper-519:
No you don't...missing one thing.Your a scum sucking, cock smoking socialist faggot with shit for brains.
Just like everyone else on this site.
I protest! I do not know the first thing about smoking cock. But I do know that somebody needs a time out ....
quote:
Originally posted by Piper-519:
[b]Got a source there genius?[/b]
I doubt you'd be around long enough to see it.
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]I doubt you'd be around long enough to see it.[/b]
You are so right.
quote:
Originally posted by Piper-519:
[b]No you don't...missing one thing.Your a scum sucking, cock smoking socialist faggot with shit for brains.
Just like everyone else on this site.[/b]
So, this is the type of people that are representing Canadian interests in the military?
We are paying wages for these people to represent our interests around the world, to "defend" us one might say, as they do say it?
Therefore they must be representing Canadians well in Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the world?
Makes one wonder, about just what is going on, eh?
69% of Canadians are left of center or "lefties" is it fair to presumes then our military is only supportive of 31% of Canadians?
Maybe there needs to be an independant civilian over view board of military training and propaganda here in Canada?
quote:
Piper-519
Your a scum sucking....Just like everyone else on this site.
The amount of questionable an half baked history in this thread is too much to tackle at this point, much of it originating from Piper-519.
The above statement of his, however, is over the line and disgraces the uniform that he wears if he is truly a member of the Canadian Forces.
Not that I should have any opinion on this with only over 20 years of military service in regular forces and reserves. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]You are so right.[/b]
Michelle, this scum-sucking suicide bomber has made 26 posts in the past 24 hours or so.
Explain to me again, please, how many moderators we have at babble and exactly what their function is?
I think moderation is also called for by babblers. Why would anyone engage in discussion with this character? Just let the thread die.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Explain to me again, please, how many moderators we have at babble and exactly what their function is?[/b]
Did you submit a complaint and provide the necessary example of trolling? I did and he was gone within ten minutes. I thought that was pretty good service.
ETA: I double-checked and it turned out I lied. I sent my PM at 5:29 and Michelle booted him at 5:40. That's [i]eleven[/i] minutes. You're slipping, Michelle.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: pogge ]
I guess i should be ashamed of engaging in conversation with piper. What can I say, am just a push over for a soul in uniform. Or one who says they wear the uniform.
B4 this thread is closed... and by my count it should go for another 25 posts at least ... [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Did anyone catch, [url=http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyemonday/feature_290107.html]
ON TOUR WITH THE TALIBAN[/url] It was on The Passionate Eye last night. The filmmaker is British and begins his journey in Helmand province. He is able to meet directly with Taliban forces and confirms their ties to Pakistan and to al Qaeda.
[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: siren ]
quote:
I've lived in the military culture and frankly, it isn't worthy of respect. Indeed, it is rather contemptible. It is misogynist, racist, fascist, pointless, arrogant, and self-pitying, with an unhealthy delusion of grandeur and a messiah complex.
quote:
You've never lived in 'the military culture' have you? No really, it's ok to admit your lying...because you obviously have no fucking clue as to what you are talking about.
quote:
Your a scum sucking, cock smoking socialist faggot with shit for brains.Just like everyone else on this site.
Damn. I guess I was wrong.
I forgot homophobic.
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
[b]Did you submit a complaint and provide the necessary example of trolling?[/b]
I was away from my computer for most of the day while that asshole was crapping all over the forum. I didn't know about it.
What's the moderators' excuse?
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]What's the moderators' excuse?[/b]
Do you read every word in every thread? Even on your best day? Are you aware that there were other controversies on the board today that required attention? Do you care?
Do me a favour: don't show up on the forum where I'm a moderator. I'd boot your cranky ass so far out the door the rest of you would be running for a week just to catch up with it.
Where were these other controversies that occupied four or five moderators over a 24-hour period? Please direct my attention to them.
I love it when pogge's snarky.
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Where were these other controversies that occupied four or five moderators over a 24-hour period? Please direct my attention to them.[/b]
Do your own homework. You can't afford me.
Shooting blanks again, I see.
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Michelle, this scum-sucking suicide bomber has made 26 posts in the past 24 hours or so.Explain to me again, please, how many moderators we have at babble and exactly what their function is?[/b]
You've been on babble long enough to know that if you have a problem with a poster, you have to bring it to the attention of a moderator yourself. The mods don't actively read all the threads looking for unacceptable things, I don't even believe they're paid for full-time hours, and they can't catch everything.
This isn't the first time that a troll has come on and posted a great deal of disgusting things before being banned, and it certainly won't be the last. All you can do is bring these kinds of things to the attention of the mods and move on.
Some time ago, I was reading Winston Churchill's account of his times in the Boer War. On his way to the front to cover the story ( he as a kind of Geraldo Rivera of his day ) he claims to have conversed with a Boer couple on the train. Out of this came the idea that the Empire, Canada included, was at war with the Boers because of their awful treatment of the black indiginous population.
I wonder, how did all that turn out? The Empire won the war, so I guess South Africa was forever blessed by good relations between whites and blacks seeing as we fought a war on that principle.
I should look it up though. You never know.
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
[b]Michelle, this scum-sucking suicide bomber has made 26 posts in the past 24 hours or so.Explain to me again, please, how many moderators we have at babble and exactly what their function is?[/b]
Well, let's see. We have two paid moderators who are paid for four hours a week each. For those keeping track at home, that's a little over half an hour per day.
We have two volunteer moderators who moderate specific sections of the board. And we have two unpaid interns who can do their work around their other scheduled commitments.
And as soon as I saw his post in this thread, I banned him. I even said so when I did it. What more do you want?
I'd comment, but my 4 hours was up Tuesday morning.
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
[b]Did anyone catch, [url=http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyemonday/feature_290107.html]
ON TOUR WITH THE TALIBAN[/url] It was on The Passionate Eye last night. The filmmaker is British and begins his journey in Helmand province. He is able to meet directly with Taliban forces and confirms their ties to Pakistan and to al Qaeda.[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: siren th][/b]
I haven't seen it yet Siren, but a couple of friends have, and they were very impressed with it. Both friends agreed the documentary made things look pretty bleak for ISAF/NATO forces. They mentioned the hate they saw in the eyes of children for foreigners and the numeric strength of the Taliban, and the large presence of foreign Jihadis. As you know, I support this mission based largely on my perception that we (the international military forces ) are supported by a growing majority of Afghans. But I'm certainly open to evidence to the contrary, and will look forward to seeing On Tour With The Taliban.
The right to dissent is what Canada's military is tasked to protect....
Ha!
More BS from this purveyor of lies and myths.
A commentator who demonstrated a deeper appreciation of military affairs, and Canada's military history in particular, would be much better placed to criticise the Afghan mission.
Criticizing the Afghan mission does not require an iota of knowledge of the heroic and brave exploits of Canadian military forces in past campaigns. This is a pig-headed, romanticized attitude towards Canada's armed forces and the foreign policy of Canada's New Government™.
This war and Harper's foreign policy are not made any less wrong by reason of the military history of Canada.
