Violent crimes against women, penalties, solutions
Tue, 2007-03-06 04:26
#1
Maysie
Violent crimes against women, penalties, solutions
Tue, 2007-03-06 04:26
#2
Maysie
I've started this because of drift in [url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=38&t=000435]this thread: Edmonton cabbie's death[/url]
quote:
Originally posted by dgrollins:
[b] Violence against women was actually an area of crime I was thinking about when I made my first post about this. If spousal abuse was taken more seriously by the criminal justice system and the penalties were harsher, would it help? The same question goes for sexual assault.Let me ask you directly, in your opinion, what would be an appropriate penalty for a sexual assault. The same question goes for a man that beats a women to the point that she requires to be hospitalized.
For the sake of argument, let's say the man is 20, white, college educated and has no previous record.
If the man came from a more marginalized population, should his penalty be different?
Again, I ask because I am interested in your opinion. To be clear, I'm not trying to bait anyone. I also ask it to anyone with an opinion.
[/b]
dg, violence against women has been talked about on babble many times, and if we're going to talk about this, your hypothetical scenarios above aren't going to lead to a meaningful discussion.
Your 20 y.o. white man with a college education and no record is supposed to represent what? A "normal" guy with all the "advantages"? Sorry, I'm not playing that game. Middle class white guys are the [b]least[/b] likely to get convicted of violent crimes such as beating up someone, particularly a partner or ex-partner, for no other reason except class and race privilege. Daddy is likely a lawyer or some other "important" professional. Mr. Young White Guy's lack of record says nothing about his history of violence. Check out the Duke Lacross rape thread(s) for more details on this.
As for your direct questions, if "spousal abuse" was met with harsher punishments, would that decrease it? No.
(Sidebar, the term "spousal abuse" like "domestic violence" is a deliberate attempt to de-gender the violence of men in intimate relationships. It's been successful, unfortunately.)
What do I think is an appropriate punishment for sexual assault? It depends on my mood, how many women's stories I've heard that week, and how this trauma has affected them: for a week, a month, a year, a decade. Castration comes to mind, and yes, killing their abusers, but with my bare hands, not by cold impersonal state execution. Anyone who thinks this is irrational and "not okay" as a response I would guess has never done any kind of trauma support. There is no contradiction between feeling this way and remaining heartily against capital (and corporal) punishment.
But seriously, it begins with changing the world. A simple task. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sexual assault is violence acted out in a sexual manner. It has nothing to do with sex itself or desire. It is mostly men who act out violence sexually, onto the bodies of women. If they have no access to women, then on the bodies of other men. It would take no less than a revolution, of good, kind and allied men standing with women, to stop this. And any unlearning that happens to decrease and halt violence against women will inevitable do the same for men's violence against other men. Win-win.
[ 06 March 2007: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]
Wed, 2007-03-07 03:46
#3
Why is the question:
"Why do so many men rape or abuse women?" such a stickler for men? I have asked this of men friends, and their response is always silence, or downright hostility, as if this question had no basis in fact. This question, IMO, has got to be asked, and it has to be addressed before anything will change. Why so many men fail to take any sort of responsibility in a culture that clearly allows rape and abuse to not only happen, but further victimizers the victim, is nothing short of denial. If men do not speak out against the violence of other men, I don't see much changing.
In other news, a high school in Ontario has just found out that male students had been gang raping and videotaping unconscious teens.
In other news, many people who have reported rape, have not even heard from the police 'investigating' the rape.
In other news, women who are raped have zero incentive to report the rape. What for? Who cares?
Wed, 2007-03-07 05:59
#4
I would guess that the reason for the silence when you ask that question of male friends is that they don't know any better than you do why men who rape, rape. If they're not one of the men who rape, then why would they have any better insight into why certain men rape than we would?
Wed, 2007-03-07 10:40
#5
Very easily. Men know themselves, they know what their friends talk about, they are exposed to a culture and cultural intake that women are excluded from, or are the objects of.
This is a serious question Michelle, you know men have and do operate in a different reality that women. That's just the way it is. My question is used to draw out some possible insights. I think it's a damned good question, given topic.
Wed, 2007-03-07 11:42
#6
Sven
Stargazer, if someone were to ask me, “Why do men who rape women do that?”—I don’t know that I would have any more insight into the answer than BCG or you have.
As you know, many women on babble have been victims of sexual assault and I suspect that they would have a much better insight into the answer to that question than me. I can really only regurgitate what I hear more educated people (like you and BCG) say about the subject.
With regard to men who react hostilely to your question—well, that I don’t understand at all.
Wed, 2007-03-07 12:01
#7
I see what you mean, Stargazer, but I'm usually kind of floored when guys ask me questions like, "Why are women attracted to assholes?" or some other question about women who do stuff that I in particular don't do. Just because I'm a woman and have access to female culture that men don't have doesn't mean I would necessarily have any special insight into behavioural traits that some women have that I don't share.
Interestingly enough, many of the guys I've been friends with actually don't really talk to other guys - they talk to their female friends more than their male friends, when it comes to the sort of "deep down" emotional stuff. So they might honestly NOT have any particular insight into why men who rape do so, if they've never had conversations with their friends about it.
Of course, one could ask men why many of them don't actively talk to their male friends about this sort of stuff. But that's another question entirely.
As for hostile reactions - If I try and think of a parallel situation that would make me hostile, it might be if a guy asked me, "Why are women so catty?" While it is certainly true that SOME women are catty (just as it is certainly true that some men rape), I would probably not feel able to respond to the question either, and I might feel a bit hostile and/or targeted by it, even if he wasn't specifically saying that I share that trait.
[ 07 March 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Wed, 2007-03-07 12:13
#8
Frustrated Mess
quote:
Very easily. Men know themselves, they know what their friends talk about, they are exposed to a culture and cultural intake that women are excluded from, or are the objects of.
Then you can tell me why shoplifters shoplift?
Violence against women is the a stop on the route of a train of cultural violence. Try to understand that our entire civilization is founded on violence. We rationalize it, we defend it, we deny it, but we resort to it as matter of course not as a final resort.
Nations use violence against nations. Governments use violence against citizens. Employers against workers, men against women and children and women against children and children against other children and small animals.
We glorify violence. The amount governments and corporations spend on violence dwarfs, literally towers above, expenditures on all other human endeavors.
Violence against women is the tip of a very large iceberg. Chocolate, diamonds, oil, steel, fresh fruit, just about everything we take for granted is made possible by violence either at some time or on-going.
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:00
#9
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Very easily. Men know themselves, they know what their friends talk about, they are exposed to a culture and cultural intake that women are excluded from, or are the objects of.This is a serious question Michelle, you know men have and do operate in a different reality that women. That's just the way it is. My question is used to draw out some possible insights. I think it's a damned good question, given topic.[/b]
There are about 25,000 reported sexual crimes a year in Canada (reference=statscan). It’s understood that many sexual crimes are not reported, perhaps even [i] most [/i] sexual crimes aren’t reported.
So, for the sake of this discussion, let’s say the real number is ten times higher. That would mean that there are 250,000 sexual crimes a year.
Currently in Canada there are about 13 million men physically capable of committing a rape. The vast majority don’t and, I suspect, would find the idea of committing such a crime repulsive.
So, why do those men that do rape, rape?
I suspect it comes down to two things:
1) - power
and 2) - sex.
The latter may cause some disagreement, but it’s my position that it is impossible to separate a sexual crime from the desire to have sex (and there is some research out there that backs my contention up--I’ll look for a link later today). I also think that you have to accept that the desire for sex plays a role in rape if you are going to address the roots of rape.
So, how do you stop it from happening?
When you are talking about someone that does it for power reasons, I’m not sure that you can. Generally a power rapist has an anti-social personality. It’s generally thought that the only way to change an anti-social’s behaviour is to convince then that it’s in their best interest to do so. This is where increased punishment comes in. If rape, especially date rape, were enforced with more consistency, and punished more severally, then it may convince the anti-social to stop their behaviour.
When it comes to sexually motivated rape things get a bit more complicated. Addressing it, I think, starts with addressing the basic attitudes men have towards women. I don’t have stats to back this up, but I would suspect that men that routinely refer to women as bitches are more likely to rape. They have been taught to devalue women and likely don’t think that women can say no to sexual advances. They feel that they have an entitlement to sex with a partner
They are horny. She is their girlfriend. What’s the problem, is their attitude. These men don’t view their behavious as problematic.
So, how do you change general attitudes towards women? That’s difficult and it’s going to take a lot of time. However, I would suggest that it starts with working to get more women into positions of positive influence in all areas of society. If society ever did evolve to the point where men and women operated on a truly equal footing, then I think that you would see less sexual crimes.
(as an aside--does anyone have sexual crime stats from countries were there is a greater degree of gender equality?)
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:01
#10
That was no answer FM, and I honestly don't need a lecture on sociology. I'll just go along with the answers I've gotten so far and run with the assumption guys don't talk to other guys degradingly about women in many situations. Or the assumption that this question is on par with a stereotype of women.
This is the feminism forum. If a question like this cannot even be posited then, IMO, there is a real problem.
I'll also have to just shut up about the misogyny in our culture, promoted by men, for men at the expensive of women. I won't mention either the locker room discussions, or the porn, or anything else because really, my question just simply isn't worth answering or even looking at honestly. Rape happens the culture is violent does not answer the question.
Thanks for your answer Sven. At least you had the guts to say something. I do notice though that no one fesses up to the fact that many men are attracted to violence against women, and often talk about women with their buddies, reducing them to body parts, or worse. I know, I've heard it my whole life.
No need to address a culture of mainly male violence because the world is made up of violence so why bother talking about violence directed towards women? Or rape? Or anything of the sort when it can all be boiled down nice and pat into a violent culture, with no distinction made as to who does the most violence, nor even why.
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:05
#11
quote:
When it comes to sexually motivated rape things get a bit more complicated. Addressing it, I think, starts with addressing the basic attitudes men have towards women. I don’t have stats to back this up, but I would suspect that men that routinely refer to women as bitches are more likely to rape. They have been taught to devalue women and likely don’t think that women can say no to sexual advances. They feel that they have an entitlement to sex with a partner
Thank you so much for this reply. This is what I was looking for. The root of why rape and other violence happens, why it happens, and why our society allows it to happen. I'd be interested in hearing about language and power, going back to biblical days. I also don't know how to end this culture of violence against women but I do see it as getting worse, not better. Thanks again for this answer. What can we do to change things?
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:13
#12
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
I do notice though that no one fesses up to the fact that many men are attracted to violence against women, and often talk about women with their buddies, reducing them to body parts, or worse. I know, I've heard it my whole life.
This is true. But most of the guys I know who do that wouldn't understand the connection between that sort of thing and rape on a macro societal level, because while they might engage in the stereotypical locker-room banter about so-and-so's tits, they don't personally rape women. So they don't see what the harm is. And therefore, they don't really have any insight into why other men who DO rape might do it.
quote:
No need to address a culture of mainly male violence because the world is made up of violence so why bother talking about violence directed towards women? Or rape? Or anything of the sort when it can all be boiled down nice and pat into a violent culture, with no distinction made as to who does the most violence, nor even why.
Yeah, this I agree with totally, Stargazer. What is up with the minimization of violence against women? Or, actually, I guess I should say violence perpetrated by men, since most violence against both men AND women is perpetrated by men.
Violence against women isn't just a "tip of the iceberg". Women are the disproportionate victims of violence in all the other examples you mention, from exploitation in third-world factories (where they're beaten and raped and paid less than men by male bosses), to war (where they're viciously and systematically raped as a weapon of war in order to demoralize the enemy), and the laws of most countries which range from either outright enforcing violence against women (e.g. stoning or flogging women for sex outside marriage), legalizing domestic and other forms of violence against women, or to varying degrees depending on the country, not enforcing the laws against violence.
Our whole culture IS violent. But feminists have long seen it as a violent culture that is that way because it is a patriarchal culture, and violence is seen as macho and okay for men to engage in (while not ladylike for women).
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:32
#13
Maysie
A man who feels entitlement to sex in a long term relationship, a man who has not been "violent" as we could define it (including the threat of violence) exists in the context of the world we live in. He didn't just think up this entitlement all on his own. At the same time, he can (and should) make choices that don't harm women, including sexist names, rape, and other ways violence is inflicted on women by men.
FM, it's not just about violence in society. It's about when does violence happens, and who is the brunt of it. People may make excuses like "he just snapped" or other BS and I answer that by saying that he chose who he vented his anger on, he didn't wail on some guy in the subway, he came home and assaulted his partner.
dg, your post is interesting, but one part I really don't like is the notion of connecting being "horny" to rape. Men and women are horny all the time, and have consensual sex, do without, or take matters into their own hands. Statistically most men don't ever rape.
Rape is to sex as smashing someone in the face with a frying pan is to cooking.
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:48
#14
Yeah, but I don't know, BCG, I think there are a lot of guys who rape (e.g. like date rape, that sort of thing) because they want to have sex, and they think they're entitled to sex. I don't completely subscribe to the idea that rape isn't about sex. Unless we're speaking semantically and saying that "rape" is not "sex" because the word "sex" implies consent.
I guess what I mean is, I don't believe that it's nothing but a power thing. If it were just power, a guy could beat a woman. Adding forced sex to it is another dimension, and I think it's about something more than just brute power. Especially when it's a situation like what you describe, one that a lot of guys might not even recognize as a sexual assault, such as guys who continue to try to coerce or "gently" keep physically trying to have sex (or certain types of sex) when their long term partner has already said no, she's not interested, etc. I think that's about expectations and power imbalances, but I think it's also about sex, and the expectations a lot of men have around it.
Wed, 2007-03-07 13:50
#15
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Thanks for your answer Sven. At least you had the guts to say something. I do notice though that no one fesses up to the fact that many men are attracted to violence against women, and often talk about women with their buddies, reducing them to body parts, or worse. I know, I've heard it my whole life.[/b]
I think you are quite right, Stargazer. Many men have a freakish attraction to violence, both against women and otherwise.
I can’t help but think of the wretchedly disgusting (I wish I could think of stronger words for it) video “game” called “Grand Theft Auto” where if a player (almost certainly a male) is injured and needs a boost of energy, the player rapes (and kills) a prostitute.
With respect to reducing people to body parts, I’ve heard “she’s got great breasts” almost as much as “he’s got a cute ass”. My sig other loves to sit behind home plate at the Twins games just to get a closer look at and to admire Joe Mauer’s (perfectly formed) butt!!
Wed, 2007-03-07 14:03
#16
Maysie
Michelle, in an ideal world sex would happen when both partners (or more? [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img] ) are enthusiastically and juicily into having sex, and only then. It may be a restriction of our language that we don't have words for the different ways that rape can happen.
But that said, rape is still rape, even if she's not bruised and even if it wasn't a stranger. (I know you aren't arguing any of this, M.)
As for the sex part, when viewed from the male entitlement perspective, yes perhaps it can be a combination of being about both sex and power. With a known or prospective partner he doesn't have to hit her; he has to ply her with drugs, or do it while she's sleeping, and other less overtly violent methods. So yeah, it's kinda about sex. From his perspective.
But viewed from her perspective, it was a violation. Sometimes, afterwards, women describe as a more invasive violation because it was someone she trusted, someone she enjoyed having sex with previously, etc. [i]Her[/i] experience is then almost completely about power and choice and consent (her lack of), not sex.
Wed, 2007-03-07 14:06
#17
Interesting thread.
I don't know why men rape, though it is clear that it happens far too often. But when I try to think of what would motivate a man to rape another person, what benefit he might get from it, I draw a blank. I can speculate, but that's all I can do.
I'd like to think that all of the men I know are the same, but of course there is no way to be sure.
I have, in the past, been in working environments where men would joke about rape and/or violent sex. It made me uncomfortable then, and it would appall me now. At the time I was a young kid with little worldly knowledge, and definitely didn't have the confidence to challenge things like that. And I suspect that most of those who were joking would not ever actually commit a rape - though I could be wrong.
That said, an environment where is is OK to joke about rape or other violence (homophobia is another big topic) probably serves to validate the perspective and desires of a potential rapist.
Because very few of us want to see ourselves as bad people. Even the worst among us has some sort of complex rationalization that allows them to feel self-righteous. And if a man has fantasies about committing rape (for whatever reason), an atmosphere where other men joke about it or treat it as something less than an abhorrent act probably serves to validate that person. And it might make it possible for that man to cross a threshold from thought to action, with all that entails.
My experience with those environments was in labour jobs - oilfield, fish boats, transport. I suspect that other places (frat houses, military) probably have similar environments.
So what do I do about it? I'm not a rapist, and I find the idea of it appalling. I would never associate with a rapist, nor would I fail to challenge a person who joked about such a thing (now that I have the confidence to do so). But over the past 15 years I've made a point of removing people like that from my life anyways, so the issue rarely comes up at all. If anyone I know is a rapist or homophobe, they are not public about it (at least not with me).
And that won't do a damn thing about the fish boat, or the oilfield jobs where the male:male bonding includes rape jokes and other such crap. Because it is a very different world from the one I live in now. And I don't know what to do about that.
I hope I expressed myself well enough here - this is a very sensitive topic.
Wed, 2007-03-07 14:16
#18
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]But viewed from her perspective, it was a violation. Sometimes, afterwards, women describe as a more invasive violation because it was someone she trusted, someone she enjoyed having sex with previously, etc. [i]Her[/i] experience is then almost completely about power and choice and consent (her lack of), not sex.[/b]
That is a great observation.
Wed, 2007-03-07 14:42
#19
quote:
In other news, a high school in Ontario has just found out that male students had been gang raping and videotaping unconscious teens.
And don't you love the strongest, most public reaction of the students? They're worried that their school is going to look bad [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Intriguing post, arborman. I've come across guys like that in the workplace too, though because I'm a woman, I tend to overhear those sorts of things by accident. These guys seem to have a lot of latent anger focused on women for some reason.
As women, we have sexual power over (straight) men. Maybe rapists are trying to take away that power.
Wed, 2007-03-07 14:57
#20
Frustrated Mess
quote:
FM, it's not just about violence in society. It's about when does violence happens, and who is the brunt of it.
I agree. It is about violence in civilization. It happens every minute of every day and it is people in so-called developing countries who bear the brunt of it.
Our civilization is inherently violent and would be whether it is patriarchal, matriarchal, or just archal. Violence flows in just one direction: from those with power to those without. Yes, rape is about power and violence. So is dams, monoculture, and war, and in every single case, women and children are the primary victims.
But if all the attention is focused just on the immediate source of violence it will never end as it will continue to flow uninterrupted from the wellhead that is what we call civilization.
The problem that we face is that we are all beneficiaries of violence. It is not in our interest for all violence to come to a halt. And so long as we condone violence against the earth, other species, and other humans to go on unabated in the pursuit of narrow economic interests, nothing else will change.
Wed, 2007-03-07 15:06
#21
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
[b]As women, we have sexual power over (straight) men. Maybe rapists are trying to take away that power.[/b]
Some of them, probably. Others probably have other issues - fear, insecurity, misplaced anger. I'd bet that many of them were victimized themselves during childhood, and have messed up views of violence and intimacy. And probably many others did not, and are just acting our their understanding of our cultural mores.
Wed, 2007-03-07 15:53
#22
But do you think rape is a cultural phenomenon? Seems to be pretty cross-cultural, or even pre-cultural (if that makes any sense). It's our response to it that's culturally-determined, and even though we've made some progress towards getting away from blaming the victim, I might suggest that would-be rapists are the sort that would: "She asked for it!".
Wed, 2007-03-07 16:31
#23
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
[b]But do you think rape is a cultural phenomenon? Seems to be pretty cross-cultural, or even pre-cultural (if that makes any sense). It's our response to it that's culturally-determined, and even though we've made some progress towards getting away from blaming the victim, I might suggest that would-be rapists are the sort that would: "She asked for it!".[/b]
Although some might view it as "moralizing", I think that teaching boys to RESPECT others generally, and girls and women specifically, is the only long-term solution (if there will ever will be a solution). A person cannot truly be respectful of others and, at the same time, engage in rape.
Culturally, what do we do with vile "games" like "Grand Theft Auto"? Given my libertarian tendencies and my belief in (to use American-speak) First Amendment rights, I have a hard time with the thought of legally banning it. Yet, I think that the corrosive nature of things like that may warrant that action. What about fiction (literature, plays, film) that depict violence against women? Do we start banning things like that? I struggle with that.
[ 07 March 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]
Wed, 2007-03-07 17:30
#24
I don't think banning or censorship of all things [possibly violent is a good answer either. I don't know what the answer is. I think the most perplexing thing for me is that rape has been occurring since the beginning of time, and we have never adequately addressed that, or even come to terms with the fact that it is mainly males who do it. I really do not like the isolation of rape, or the rape victim, from the culture in which rape is glorified in any manner. I think that when rape is mentioned, in particular in the papers (which it often isn't unless it is a serial rapist or a sensationalistic sex crime), that the bigger questions need to be put out in the open. Why do some men rape? What makes some men feel entitled to do this?
We need to start focusing more on the macro level, and get some answers and some actions that can bring the statistics down and reports up. As it is we have so many women (and some men and children) who have been raped, fearful of going to the police, and even worse, fearful of the justice system that is supposed to help them, as they often do other types of crime.
The fact that the justice system is a massive failure and that rape is treated differently is a major issue. Even when a rape is reported, the chances of any conviction, let alone an investigation is so small as to be insignificant. And women know this. They know the system does not work. And men know this as well.
A person steals money from a bank and uses a weapon, I believe they get an automatic 3 year sentence, minimum. Yet a man can commit sexual crimes against a women and ruin her life, and he may get 6 months. Money is more valuable than lives. There is something wrong with the way in which rape is contextualized in all cultures and money should never be more valuable than a life.
Academics have been talking about the culture of rape for years and years, and nothing is ever done to follow up on the results of their studies. If rape were a crime committed primarily against men, my guess is that there would be much more attention to it than there is now. I realize it is a pwer thing there as well. I would just like to know how we can change this.
Wed, 2007-03-07 17:31
#25
I'm not sure, really. I mean, in Canada, if there were a video game put out that depicted, say, the player having to lynch as many Black people as possible in order to win the game, or round up as many Jews as possible and throw them on cattlecars to win the game, I have the feeling that perhaps people would be screaming bloody murder and demanding that the creators be prosecuted under hate laws. (And actually, in a case where a game is actually encouraging or inciting violence against a minority group, I could even support that, although I would prefer that incitement be a separate crime from hate, and that hate not be a crime at all.)
Or, if a game was put out where your character is a suicide bomber who has to take out as many civilians as possible at a mall, you can bet that even the right-whingers would get in on the act and freak out about it being "terrorist training" and try to get it banned.
But when women get pissed off at gratuitous violence against women in video games and movies and music videos and other media, we're just overreacting.
Wed, 2007-03-07 17:34
#26
So true. Or worse, we're hysterical feminazis.
Wed, 2007-03-07 17:43
#27
And yet, like you, I'm leery of censorship. Because I certainly wouldn't censor movies like The Accused, which has a prolonged and utterly brutal gang rape scene in it. Or Kill Bill, or Friday the 13th, or any other movie that even has gratuitous violence in it.
My problem with videogames where the point of the game is to rape women in order to score points is that I think maybe it crosses the line from depiction to incitement. It's not having you sit by and watch it be depicted, it's getting you to control the character and make it rape women.
On the other hand...a lot of people also think that people should be allowed to think out or act out fantasies through proxies like videogames or S&M porn or whatever, and they don't want to limit what people can think about or even depict or act out as long as no one is getting hurt through that action.
Unfortunately, there are tons of studies that show that violent sexual offenders are generally pretty heavy porn users, etc. But that's a chicken-and-egg thing, if you ask me. Does the porn create the offender? Or is it that the offender just happens to be attracted to that type of porn, along with lots of other benign people who just have a certain "kink" and would never dream of acting on it without consent?
I don't know. Stargazer, you've studied this way more than me, so be gentle. I realize these are some pretty amateur meanderings on my part. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Wed, 2007-03-07 18:17
#28
Michelle wrote:
quote:
Unfortunately, there are tons of studies that show that violent sexual offenders are generally pretty heavy porn users, etc. But that's a chicken-and-egg thing, if you ask me. Does the porn create the offender? Or is it that the offender just happens to be attracted to that type of porn, along with lots of other benign people who just have a certain "kink" and would never dream of acting on it without consent?
More and more, when I hear people contemplating a chicken and egg question, I find myself visualizing the snwoball effect. I think people more innately predisposed to sexual disroders (pardon my limited terminology) would also be more prone to seek out hard core porn; but I also think that exposure to said porn would accelerate the process.
Whenever these threads come out on babble I find myself introspecting, trying to dig, and having a hard time. I'm a non-violent person. I believe in preventing and avodiing confrontations, and am generally laid back. My last fight was nearly ten years ago, when i was 14. That being said, I have no trouble believing that under the right circumstance, the potential for murder could very well be in me. Sometimes I even fantasize about hurting people. I do not, however, fantasize about rape. I see threads like this and I get all these theories pop into my head. It's like trying to fine tune an image but being stuck in a fog.
Wed, 2007-03-07 19:57
#29
we have a patriarchal culture who's sex-gender system is reinforced in all sorts of ways- so I view rape as being one of these. What is violence anyways-isn't any sort of oppression a violent
thing, event if it does not hurt one physically ?
As for if violent media-ie video games, tv, books,porn etc- reinforce or produces violent people, from what I remember of psych 101 there have been many studies that show conclusively that yes there is a direct link; show a child a violent video and they will do something violent. No one is unaffected by their environment- it's input output.
Wed, 2007-03-07 22:05
#30
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Academics have been talking about the culture of rape for years and years, and nothing is ever done to follow up on the results of their studies. If rape were a crime committed primarily against men, my guess is that there would be much more attention to it than there is now. I realize it is a pwer thing there as well. I would just like to know how we can change this.[/b]
Recognizing that the under-reporting of rapes makes crime statistics difficult, if not impossible, to compare, do you know if there are any trends over the last several decades on the crime rate related to rapes? Are there more or less rapes per 100,000 people today than there were, say three or four decades ago? Or, are the stats pretty much unchanged?
On the issue of trying to assess the degree of under-reported rapes, are there any studies showing that the percentage of under-reported rates is changing, one way or the other, over time? I wonder if women felt more or less willing to report rape, say, in the 1950s than they do today?
Wed, 2007-03-07 22:22
#31
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I'm not sure, really. I mean, in Canada, if there were a video game put out that depicted, say, the player having to lynch as many Black people as possible in order to win the game, or round up as many Jews as possible and throw them on cattlecars to win the game, I have the feeling that perhaps people would be screaming bloody murder and demanding that the creators be prosecuted under hate laws. (And actually, in a case where a game is actually encouraging or inciting violence against a minority group, I could even support that, although I would prefer that incitement be a separate crime from hate, and that hate not be a crime at all.)Or, if a game was put out where your character is a suicide bomber who has to take out as many civilians as possible at a mall, you can bet that even the right-whingers would get in on the act and freak out about it being "terrorist training" and try to get it banned.
But when women get pissed off at gratuitous violence against women in video games and movies and music videos and other media, we're just overreacting.[/b]
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]So true. Or worse, we're hysterical feminazis.[/b]
It strikes me that there are more anti-women media depictions today than in prior years. A video "game" where the players rape women probably didn't exist fifteen years ago. Anti-women songs (raping "bitches and ho's") probably weren't as blatent years ago than they are today.
What does that say about where our culture is heading? More importantly, [b][i]why[/b][/i] is that happening?
It seems like in the ever-more cluttered media culture, to gain attention (and make money), many people are trying to be more and more outrageous in order to get noticed and to set themselves apart from the pack. What was "outrageous" in the 1980s (e.g., Madonna's "Sex" book) would be plain vanilla today.
Gawd forbid if things like "Grand Theft Auto" are someday viewed as "plain vanilla" and there are even uglier things being peddled.
I think that may be part of the "why" but it doesn't really answer "how" that trend can be reversed when it comes to violence against women.
Wed, 2007-03-07 23:06
#32
quote:
"Why do so many men rape or abuse women?" such a stickler for men? I have asked this of men friends, and their response is always silence, or downright hostility, as if this question had no basis in fact.
Interesting observation. I might be able to offer an explanation, although I’m not sure it will be sufficient. I think, at least sometimes in my experience, that question is asked with a sort of expectation that whoever is being asked should know and give an answer that is appropriate to the asker just because they are men.
First, the fact is most men don’t have a clue what percentage of men turn out to be rapists or wife-beaters and why they become that way, let alone what to do about it. One could argue that it might make a positive difference overall in society if they did know. But in today’s reality, most don’t. To assume that they must have an answer simply because they share the same gender is to imply that because they are men they empathize with a rapists’ actions and motivations, which is of course nonsense.
Second, while it’s obvious on principle that even one man becoming a rapist is unacceptable, the term “so many” is highly subjective and, in terms of actual numbers, is not accurate.
According to [url=http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM00122... Canada studies [/url] and
[url=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm]various studies [/url]in the [url=http://www.canadianencyclopedia.ca/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM00122... of A, [/url] an estimated eight per cent of the males population statistically commits a violent crime (as in murder, rape, some sort of physical assault, kidnapping and armed robbery) in their lifetime (about four per cent of women statistically do the same). About a third of that eight per cent commit a violent crime against women.
So that’s not very many men at all. The problem is that about 86 per cent of violent crimes are perpetrated by men. That means that it’s very uncommon for a violent offender, including rapists, to commit only one crime. Rather, the small percentage of men who do perpetrate violence for the most part are serious repeat offenders.
quote:
Why so many men fail to take any sort of responsibility in a culture that clearly allows rape and abuse to not only happen, but further victimizers the victim, is nothing short of denial.
Two points on this.
First, while the culture generally exposes men to violence, or insinuates that violence is a good way to resolve differences and conflict, it’s clear, at least from my own experience and of those who I know growing up, that it doesn’t directly say that rape or violence against women is OK. In fact, all those goofy cop shows and dramas we all grew up with in the 1960s and 1970s always portrayed the rapists, wife-beaters, child-molesters, extortionists and muggers as the bad guys, and anyone who knew of or read about such people saw them as gross villains, not as role models.
So it seems to me the cultural influences on rape and other violence against women isn’t that such things are acceptable. Rather, it’s that the emphasis on violence as a way of maintaining personal identity and addressing social or personal issues can influence some men to act out in that violent and destructive way.
Second, I agree that it’s incumbent on all working class people, including men, to get involved in any way they can to change our economy and society for the better, including advocating against violence. However, it is impossible, and patently unfair, to ask men collectively, especially working class ones, to take responsibility, as in blame, for what they do not control and have no say in shaping. The culture in question here was not developed consciously and democratically by everyone affected by it. That, I think, is one of the main reasons it has so many rotten attributes. To hurl the burden of this onto people who have no franchise in it is counter to justice and makes no sense.
Thu, 2007-03-08 05:25
#33
Some answers to your post Steppenwolf Allende:
quote:
that question is asked with a sort of expectation that whoever is being asked should know and give an answer that is appropriate to the asker just because they are men.
You are correct, it is asked because they are men. Who should I be asking, women? We have no real insights. Why do I ask my male friends? To see what their insights may be. You can believe me, some come up with some pretty disturbing answers. The ones who get hostile? They are the minority. I do not think asking men what they think causes rape to happen is a bad thing to ask. Nor does ti extend to assuming all men know. That was your interpretation. To me, your interpretation is problematic. I would think about that for awhile as to why it is problematic for you. If someone were to ask me, as a female, why do some women abuse their children, I could at least speculate and answer from what knowledge and insight I have as a women.
quote:
To assume that they must have an answer simply because they share the same gender is to imply that because they are men they empathize with a rapists’ actions and motivations, which is of course nonsense
Read above again. Your defensiveness is not that encouraging. Nor is your pat answer. In fact, it is essentially "you should ask men about rape" which is pure bullshit.
quote:
Second, while it’s obvious on principle that even one man becoming a rapist is unacceptable, the term “so many” is highly subjective and, in terms of actual numbers, is not accurate.According to Statistics Canada studies and
various studies in the US of A, an estimated eight per cent of the males population statistically commits a violent crime (as in murder, rape, some sort of physical assault, kidnapping and armed robbery) in their lifetime (about four per cent of women statistically do the same). About a third of that eight per cent commit a violent crime against women.
Highly subjective? Try telling that to women who have been victims of insect, date rape, stranger rape, molestations, etc. These crimes go largely unreported and according to the police themselves, over 90 percent of rapes or sexual assaults are not reported. There is a reason for that. Part of it is denial. Sort of what you are doing here, in this thread. Much of it is, "oh please, that many men don't rape. I'm going to share something with you Steppenwolf. Out of all of my closest female friends, I do not know one single women who has not experienced rape, sexual assault, or incest or stranger molestation in one form or another. Most of them have been victims of family members. Your stats, well, they mean nothing when compared to reality. Stats cannot accurately reflect that reality. I'm sure you can surmise why.
quote:
So that’s not very many men at all. The problem is that about 86 per cent of violent crimes are perpetrated by men. That means that it’s very uncommon for a violent offender, including rapists, to commit only one crime. Rather, the small percentage of men who do perpetrate violence for the most part are serious repeat offenders.
While this is true, it does not deal with the reality of unreported sexual crimes does it? No, it does not. That would inflate these statistics to a very high degree. Nor do these statistics take into account the vast majority of unfound rape claims, claims which do not mean there have been no crime, but a crime which has has been perpetrated against a women of 'unsavory background, or whatever other criteria these cops use these days. So, Steppenwolf, what of all these men who sexually assault and have their cases thrown out for reasons not associated with their guilt or innocence? And how about dealing with the reality that the justice system is unfairly hard on women reporting and going through their system when raped? You conveniently ignore these, or perhaps you are not aware.
quote:
So it seems to me the cultural influences on rape and other violence against women isn’t that such things are acceptable. Rather, it’s that the emphasis on violence as a way of maintaining personal identity and addressing social or personal issues can influence some men to act out in that violent and destructive way.
Did you miss this life? Did you read about Sven's Grand Theft Auto description? I'm sure that is not the only example. How about all those other examples wherein the charge is against a big name, with money, and the woman is a money grabbing 'whore'? Or how about the rapes against prostitutes and other sex workers? How about addressing a culture that makes jokes about the No means No slogan, such as the one mentioned in another thread? How about all those rape pron videos, and degradation scat videos some men seem to keen to buy?
quote:
However, it is impossible, and patently unfair, to ask men collectively, especially working class ones, to take responsibility, as in blame, for what they do not control and have no say in shaping. The culture in question here was not developed consciously and democratically by everyone affected by it. That, I think, is one of the main reasons it has so many rotten attributes. To hurl the burden of this onto people who have no franchise in it is counter to justice and makes no sense.
Again, another 'Oh please, I don't think it is fair to make men think of such things and the way they may help perpetuate such a culture of rape. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
I am going to be 42 soon. In my life alone here are the many thing I have experienced okay? Only 1 was reported:
- two rapes (vicsious ones I might add)
- numerous instances of walking by some man trying to masterbate in front of me
- sexualt assaults. One when I was in grade seven done by 7 boys
- Family related sexualt crimes against me as a child
That's just some things. These are just the one's I am comfortable to print. Not because I want sympathy, but you need to realize that just because 'in your world' this is a non-issue (which personally it shouldn't be) does not mean it is a non-issue for us.
Michelle, no worries, you are doing amazingly well, and I fully appreciate your help and insights.
Thu, 2007-03-08 06:24
#34
quote:
To assume that they must have an answer simply because they share the same gender is to imply that because they are men they empathize with a rapists’ actions and motivations, which is of course nonsense.
Rape is almost exclusively a male phenomenon. If we don't ask men about it, who do we ask?
quote:
However, it is impossible, and patently unfair, to ask men collectively, especially working class ones, to take responsibility, as in blame, for what they do not control and have no say in shaping.
So if a dock worker rapes a woman, he's not to blame because his union didn't negotiate a better salary?? If Donald Trump raped someone, would he be more culpable because he's rich and powerful [img]confused.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2007-03-08 06:29
#35
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
[b]Rape is almost exclusively a male phenomenon. If we don't ask men about it, who do we ask?[/b]
We should ask rapists. Honestly: is there any work done interviewing rapists on why they rape?
Thu, 2007-03-08 07:03
#36
quote:
We should ask rapists.
Logical, though I extend the question to all men because the vast majority of rapists don't get caught.
quote:
Honestly: is there any work done interviewing rapists on why they rape?
quote:
Psychologists who work with rapists say many men view forcing sex with a woman as a validation of their manhood. Some experts, including feminists, now say that in our culture sex is so interfused with violence that powerlessness and power themselves have become eroticized. Getting at the real motives of rapists is difficult since they typically do not admit their crimes. Experts say rapists are notoriously manipulative and don't always tell the truth.
[url=http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/studyg/men.html]No Safe Place[/url]
Thu, 2007-03-08 15:06
#37
Well, first off, skookum thanks to Stargazer for taking the time to engage yours truly on this sort of matter. While I do read about these concerns and know some things about them from a social justice and community safety angle, I don’t often talk, or even think much about them in a more personal or introspective way.
But just FYI, those studies I listed in the last post and the numbers they offer are NOT based on reported or convicted crimes, since they also state that the majority of these types of crimes go unreported, but on estimates extrapolated from reports and convictions and studies based on large numbers of interviews and random polling.
quote:
You are correct, it is asked because they are men. Who should I be asking, women? We have no real insights. Why do I ask my male friends? To see what their insights may be. You can believe me, some come up with some pretty disturbing answers. The ones who get hostile? They are the minority. I do not think asking men what they think causes rape to happen is a bad thing to ask. Nor does ti extend to assuming all men know.
I wasn’t inferring that asking men about their impressions on why some men become violent offenders is not a good thing. In fact, if you’re doing research, I don’t see how you would not want to do so. I would assume you would also need to ask women in general about their impressions, as well as the vics, the perps and the families of both. That way, you get a more broad and comprehensive view.
My reference was to my own experience having been asked the question but soon realizing, given the asker’s behaviour, that it wasn’t asked out of interest my impressions or for research, but as a slight or attack, expecting me to answer for the violent crimes or attitudes of other people I don’t know and have nothing in common with.
The sad fact is you likely have as much insight into this matter as I do. If you asked me simply for my insights into why some men engage in sexual violence against women, most of what I could offers are not very qualified impressions that would likely not be of interest or serve any real purpose.
For example, you say:
quote:
I am going to be 42 soon. In my life alone here are the many thing I have experienced okay? Only 1 was reported:
- two rapes (vicsious ones I might add)
- numerous instances of walking by some man trying to masterbate in front of me
- sexualt assaults. One when I was in grade seven done by 7 boys
- Family related sexualt crimes against me as a child
This obviously gives you insights that I can’t even fathom. I wouldn’t dare even guess at what it was like for you going through all this.
But I can say that as a victim of a fair deal of non-sexual violence as a youth (still have a scar), I can certainly much more readily empathize with your plight as a victim of violence at the hands of obviously very disrespectful and destructive people than I can with whatever motivations a violent sexual predator might have.
quote:
Part of it is denial. Sort of what you are doing here, in this thread. Much of it is, "oh please, that many men don't rape.
No denial, or being “defensive” either. Just trying to be factual—relying on comprehensive reports and studies by agencies with at least some credibility on the issue with obviously a lot more knowledge about it than me.
As said, those studies refer to estimates that I mentioned of what percentage of the population turns violent, regardless of whether they get reported or not.
While I think it’s safe to say that all people, especially men, have, to one degree or another, violent tendencies and that our economies and cultures create many situations where various people are provoked or even encouraged to engage in violence for various reasons, it’s not safe to assume that most people, including men, are blood-thirsty scheming monsters just itching for an opportunity to get violent with someone in order to get something they want. I don’t think people in general work that way.
quote:
Out of all of my closest female friends, I do not know one single women who has not experienced rape, sexual assault, or incest or stranger molestation in one form or another. Most of them have been victims of family members. Your stats, well, they mean nothing when compared to reality. Stats cannot accurately reflect that reality. I'm sure you can surmise why.
Actually, one of those studies (can’t remember which one now) estimates that one in three women and one in nine men will experience some form of sexual violence, like what you describe, in their lifetimes. That bugs me, since I have two daughters, and while they have never said they have been directly victimized, those stats don’t look encouraging. And I do know that my wife was sexually abused when she was a teenager. So, in fairness, I think they do relate to reality.
I know several women who have experienced similar sexual violence—most of it with a man as the perp. But the question seems, at least related to this discussion, has every or almost every man they have had dealings, association or relationships with attempted a violent sexual assault on them. The answer that I am presented with is clearly no. Actually, it seems, from what I have learned from the victims I know, is that it’s often one or two individuals out of many men in their lives who show a pattern of assaulting women other than just them.
quote:
Did you miss this life? Did you read about Sven's Grand Theft Auto description? I'm sure that is not the only example.
Hold on. That’s a bit of a low blow. I certainly may not be the most culturally tuned-in or knowledgeable person out there, but I do think my life experiences aren’t all that bizarre or out of the ordinary. I have never even seen the video game you talk about, so I can’t comment.
I do know that despite all the crass jokes in the locker and lunch rooms out there, my experience tells me for sure that most people, including most men, know that sexual violence is unjust and unacceptable. Certainly the men I have talked with about this in those locker and lunch rooms seem to know it and don’t look positively on men who do engage in such things.
It seems that even most rapists know it’s unacceptable, since most of them clearly try to hide what they do from most other people.
Anyway, I don’t mean to drag on or get preachy about this. I’m obviously no expert on this matter, and in the end, other than a few studies I have skimmed through, I don’t have much to go on other than my own impressions and experiences. But for me, I see it as fundamentally wrong to associate everyone of the same gender with the violent misconduct of minority simply because they have the same gender.
BTW, you're right. This stuff is harder to talk about from this angle than one might think.
Wed, 2007-04-04 06:30
#38
writer
[b]Vancouver's Memory March[/b]
On Saturday March 25, people came out to recognize the women and girls who've been killed by violence. So many women murdered - young and old; at home and on the street; of all races, classes and ethnicities. The living held each name, spoke each name, honoured those who died. The living bore witness to what is still happening in our communities each day.
Thu, 2012-02-02 21:39
#39
Unbelievable - how does this guy get away without a jail sentence?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/02/vancouver-billionaire-david-ho-p...
Thu, 2012-02-02 22:44
#40
I should have known. Having friends in high places says it all.
Didn't Ho hire former BC LIberal Finance Minister Gary Collins to run his Harmony airline into the ground?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/vancouver-...
Fri, 2012-02-03 09:54
#41
Is this a measure of equality in Canada, where someone of Chinese ancestry who is rich can now buy justice as well as any rich WASP can buy justice?
I suppose it is. It's the kind of justice we are all too familiar with in this country.
A woman tried to leave, he restrained her and in the process of that illegal act, she suffered a broken ankle and ended up almost naked, in the snow.
And he's fined what would be in the average Canadian's term of economic reference, mere pennies.
Crown Attourney Elliot Poll is a poltroon, and the Judge in this case a reprobate.
What I would like to know for this case and many others that will undoubtedly happen in the future, is what is the line of communication for us to let Crown Prosecutors and Judges know exactly how we feel about their crappulance and corruption.
This stuff goes on, due in part, to the fact that these people are too protected.
Sat, 2012-02-04 21:39
#42
Sven
One of the key words in the title to this thread is "solutions". Given the problem, what are the solutions?
Sat, 2012-02-04 22:21
#43
Maysie
Sexual Assault Prevention Tips
1. Don't put drugs in people's drinks in order to control their behaviour.
2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!
3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!
4. Never open an unlokced door or window uninvited.
5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON'T ASSAULT THEM!
6. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM if you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.
7. Always be honest with people. Don't pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault.Consider telling them you plan to assualt them. If you don't communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not intend to rape them.
8. Don't forget: you can't have sex with someone unless they are awake!
9. Carry a whistle! If you're worried you might assault someone "accidentally", you can hand it to the person you're with so they can blow it if you do.
10. Don't assault people.
Sat, 2012-02-04 22:24
#44
Maysie
There have been many suggestions of solutions, Sven.
But here's 10.
Sat, 2012-02-04 23:16
#45
And intervening in a public domestic dispute is not always a good idea, either. Sometimes the young woman getting slapped around by her bf will turn on the outside objector and tell you to mind your own bees wax.
Sat, 2012-02-04 23:52
#46
Sven
Maysie, from my observations, I think there is often a strong tendency for progressives to seek legislative or regulatory solutions for economic, social, environmental, etc. problems and to not leave problems to be solved by the "free market". But, in the area of violence against women, it strikes me that there really aren't any solutions that are being offered that follow the normal legislative or regulatory pathway...and that the problem is, essentially, being left to the "free market" to solve. At least I'm not aware of any significant government-based solutions to this problem that are being widely, or even noticeably, advocated.
Sun, 2012-02-05 01:05
#47
And intervening in a public domestic dispute is not always a good idea, either. Sometimes the young woman getting slapped around by her bf will turn on the outside objector and tell you to mind your own bees wax.
One of the reasons cops loath domestic dispute calls. Greater chance of injury from those calls
Sun, 2012-02-05 07:57
#48
Maysie
And intervening in a public domestic dispute is not always a good idea, either. Sometimes the young woman getting slapped around by her bf will turn on the outside objector and tell you to mind your own bees wax.
Any man (or woman) who intervenes publically when a woman is being assaulted by her male partner doesn't understand the dynamics of an abusive relationship.
Of course she will not run to you as her "saviour". She never will. You're a stranger. And she's locked into a dynamic with her abuser. He runs her life. He decides whether she gets hit or not. He controls her. Until he doesn't. If she shows any sign of going against him, such as looking to a stranger, especially a male strenger FFS, she'll suffer later.
Think about it this way. This is behaviour that he sees as "okay" public behaviour. Imagine how he is behind closed, locked doors.
And Fidel, it's not a "domestic dispute". It's, statistically, violence against women.
And Bacchus, sorry, but cry me a fucking river for the cops. She has to live there, with him, and deal with him, knowing the cops can't do anything until she's badly beaten or dead. Imagine living with that fear. Imagine that, as we chat about this. In the feminist forum.
Sven, the reason the justice system isn't looked to for solutions is because it's never been a place where women have found justice for the violence perpetrated against them. There are some examples in this very thread. They are not the exceptions. Read them again. Read "The Story of Jane Doe: A Book About Rape". Jane Doe was the exception in that her rapist was arrested, tried and convicted of raping her and other women. And there were specific reasons this happened, most of them having nothing to do with the acts of rape he committed. Jane also (successfullly, but it took 10 years) sued the Toronto Police for not issuing warnings about the serial rapist in her neighbourhood, as a "tactic" to use women as bait to catch him. Never mind the women he further raped and terrorized. It was Jane's actions of posting his image around the neighbourhood that led to his arrest.
If this is the direction this new bump in this old thread is going, I need to remind you guys that it's the feminist forum.
Sun, 2012-02-05 08:42
#49
writer
Mansplaining in the feminism forum. I'm lovin' it!
Thanks, Maysie.
Sun, 2012-02-05 11:05
#50
"nd Bacchus, sorry, but cry me a fucking river for the cops. She has to live there, with him, and deal with him, knowing the cops can't do anything until she's badly beaten or dead. Imagine living with that fear. Imagine that, as we chat about this. In the feminist forum."
Not to mention, that should she retaliate and he has the bruises when the cops come, she gets arrested.
Sun, 2012-02-05 11:09
#51
Michael Enright's opening editorial on today's (feb 5) Sunday Edition is worth listening to.
On the issue of the Shafia murder trial and so-called honour killings, he begins by drawing a comparison with talking with his sons after learning about the Montreal Massacre.
He ends by touching on the call by some pundits for new immigrants to receive instruction in "Canadian values" - specifically not attacking and murdering women. He says he thinks it is a good idea - one which should probably be extended to include all men in Canada.
If the podcast isn't up yet, I expect it should be soon, for anyone interested.