Easter Dinner Entertaining: What’s the Feminist’s Role?
Thu, 2007-04-05 14:00
#1
Easter Dinner Entertaining: What’s the Feminist’s Role?
Thu, 2007-04-05 14:00
#2
For a feminist, holiday meal preparation can seem like a bit of a trap. I was reminded of this conflict after reading this article:
[url=http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22360/27705/?CMP=KNC-DC_YSM_6]http...
If you celebrate Easter by a having Easter dinner, how do you and your family divide up the cooking and cleaning for the meal? Does it end up being the women in the kitchen, or Is it a family event?
Thu, 2007-04-05 14:45
#3
If you can afford it, have the whole damn thing catered.
Thu, 2007-04-05 16:05
#4
My immediate family is mainly men and it is often the men who cook. Meanwhile those men who aren't cooking do the setting up and cleaning up. Fortunately, we don't go on about 'look how amazing we are doing this'.
But it wasn't always this way and I am not quite sure how it evolved into this situation. I can remember when the women went to the kitchen and cooked while the men went to the sitting room and talked or watched a game. Even the division of drinks was different the women had a glass of wine while the men had a beer or scotch.
Perhaps you just realize you want to celebrate well, well then you participate in the process.
Thu, 2007-04-05 16:59
#5
with regards to the article, yeah I pretty much agree with what she says and I think that women reinforce themselves in all sorts of ways consciously and unconsciously- women have gotten more freedom in society but not all the men have learnt to do the domestic stuff or if they do know how its a question of willingness
Thu, 2007-04-05 17:09
#6
It's pretty traditional in my family.
Of course, on my mother's side of the family, my grandfather is dead, my mother is divorced, I'm separated, my mother's brother is (now) out west (although he can't really cook anyhow), and my aunt has a roommate (a guy) who couldn't cook to save his life. Basically on my mother's side we're a family of women with a couple of male hangers-on who probably wouldn't bother celebrating occasions unless we did it. So, yeah, the women cook. (And usually the older generations, not me, although that was changing until I stopped eating meat and dairy. Now I cook dishes for myself and anyone else who wants some, but most people won't do tofu scramble instead of turkey! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] )
On my father's side, also very traditional but not because of any lack of men - just lack of enlightened men. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] (Hi Dad! Just kidding!) The women cook all the food and then afterwards they wash all the dishes. (I'm generally more into the dishes than the cooking.) It's interesting, though - the women all feel like if they didn't do one, they should do the other. But the men all retire to the living room or wherever afterwards without it even occurring to them that they should do one or the other.
But...I don't know, I guess it's anti-feminist and all, but I don't really mind it that much. I feel like I'm in kind of a different world when I'm with my family, and it just seems to fit there. I'm never the host, so if the women who do most of the cooking and the hosting don't care, why should I care? They seem happy enough to do it. And at my stepbrother's place, because there are so many adults around for holiday meals, it's kind of a female bonding thing for all the women to work together on the meal.
I guess if they hated doing it but felt obligated that might be a problem, but they don't.
Thu, 2007-04-05 17:17
#7
to my mind the point is that they don't feel obligated to pitch in at all-why should women do all the work, its not as if it's only women creating the mess- its a question of responsibility and fairness-you make a mess you clean it up, don't leave it around for someone else to clean it up for you. This is one of the things that contributes to and reinforces the patriarchy.
[ 05 April 2007: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]
Thu, 2007-04-05 17:22
#8
I'm not sure how feminist but in my house the holiday meal work is divided into cooks and cleaners. Usually I cook since I'm usually the host for the orphans party. Mind you, the orphans party is never the same twice. Just whoever is around
Which works for me cause I love cooking. As long as I get to clean the crystal glasses and knives then it works out.
edited for typo
[ 05 April 2007: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]
Thu, 2007-04-05 17:28
#9
Not another feminist forum, Heywood. Why don't you make like a tree and fuck off, arsehole creeper.
Thu, 2007-04-05 17:36
#10
Heywood- what do you mean by orphans party ?
And Fidel- WOAH [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img] [img]confused.gif" border="0[/img] what's with the language ?
Thu, 2007-04-05 17:41
#11
quote:
Originally posted by Pride for Red Dolores:
[b]Heywood- what do you mean by orphans party ?And Fidel- WOAH [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img] [img]confused.gif" border="0[/img] what's with the language ?[/b]
The orphans are all my friends and colleagues who don't have immediate family in town, and in Calgary there's a lot. Rather than spend it alone, I host an orphans party.
Fidel's alright. He's just cranky at me today. Thinks I'm a twerp or something like that. It's cute really.
Fri, 2007-04-06 00:51
#12
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Not another feminist forum, Heywood. Why don't you make like a tree and fuck off, arsehole creeper.[/b]
What the hell? He didn't say anything wrong in this thread. Chill out, or take a break. It's up to you. The feminism forum certainly doesn't need guys starting pissing matches here.
Fri, 2007-04-06 01:00
#13
Pride, I agree with you. And if Easter were being held in my home...well, I guess I'd be cooking since I don't have a husband or partner to share hosting duties with! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Seriously though - I could, as a guest, make everyone in my family miserable by going on a feminist rant about how the guys are a bunch of sexist jerks for not doing any of the cooking or cleaning for Easter, but why? It's none of my business how my father and his wife divide the labour around their place. She does WAY more of it, but so what? It works for them, and certainly I'm not going to bring about any feminist change by getting pissed off about it and nagging them about it.
As for the women from my generation in the step-family, who also do all the work for holiday meals - well, you know, they're all strong women who aren't afraid to give their husbands whatfor whenever something pisses them off. And they don't do it about this, so who am I to say anything? I think they'd be offended if I were to assume that I know what's best for their family. If they want their husbands to chip in, that's their battle to fight. If they choose not to fight that battle, I'm certainly not going to fight it for them!
I figure, in MY home, I have the right to run things the way I want. But I certainly don't have the right to tell other people, even in my own family, how to run their homes. If all the meal preparations fell to me, in my home, where there were also adult men not chipping in, I'd have a huge problem with that and I wouldn't allow it. I certainly didn't when I was married - when my husband and I entertained, we both cooked the stuff we were best at cooking.
But I have no right to tell my step-family or my father and his wife how they should be dividing the labour in THEIR homes. None of my business, even as a feminist.
Fri, 2007-04-06 08:18
#14
Rebecca West cooks.
I do the dishes.
Fri, 2007-04-06 08:19
#15
quote:
Seriously though - I could, as a guest, make everyone in my family miserable by going on a feminist rant about how the guys are a bunch of sexist jerks for not doing any of the cooking or cleaning for Easter, but why? It's none of my business how my father and his wife divide the labour around their place. She does WAY more of it, but so what? It works for them, and certainly I'm not going to bring about any feminist change by getting pissed off about it and nagging them about it.
Geez Michelle, it's good that you don't do that.
I mean, nobody likes a martyr at Easter of all times.
Fri, 2007-04-06 08:39
#16
edited-- one one liner too many, I think, even if the moderator hands me whopping great straight lines. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 06 April 2007: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]
Fri, 2007-04-06 13:07
#17
quote:
Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
[b]If you can afford it, have the whole damn thing catered.[/b]
So it's OK if ANOTHER woman prepares the meal?
Fri, 2007-04-06 13:16
#18
Oh, are all caterers female? I should probably tell some of the male caterers at the gym to start wearing dresses. Your comment is certainly as sexist.
Edited to add: I should have known you were a male. Nice try buddy.
[ 06 April 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]
Fri, 2007-04-06 13:41
#19
remind
quote:
Originally posted by chilled:
[b]So it's OK if ANOTHER woman prepares the meal?[/b]
A caterer is a business, and could be owned by any gender. And if one could afford to have it catered, one should.
If a woman owned it, even better, more reason to use a caterer actually.
In my home, it has always been a shared effort. Even down to the cleaning.
Fri, 2007-04-06 14:41
#20
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]Rebecca West cooks.I do the dishes.[/b]
And this works out pretty well. I like to cook and I'm good at it. Tommy Paine knows how to cook, but he'd rather not most of the time. I hate washing dishes.
This is the distribution pattern for most of the household tasks - practical rather than gendered.
(Hi Michelle!)
Sat, 2007-04-07 09:30
#21
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Oh, are all caterers female? I should probably tell some of the male caterers at the gym to start wearing dresses. Your comment is certainly as sexist.Edited to add: I should have known you were a male. Nice try buddy.
[ 06 April 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ][/b]
Other than your transgendered friends at the gym, what is the ratio of female to male caterers? I'd bet it's well over 10:1 so my comment was not out of line.
Pull your head out of your ass and stop looking for reasons to be offended.
Sat, 2007-04-07 11:18
#22
My (male) cousin will be doing the dinner this year.
Sat, 2007-04-07 12:15
#23
Michelle, I agree with you- I wouldn't go over to another person's house and try to impose my values on them ( agree to disagree in some cases) -although I certainly might [i]think[/i] it unfair..
Sat, 2007-04-07 12:54
#24
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Seriously though - I could, as a guest, make everyone in my family miserable by going on a feminist rant about how the guys are a bunch of sexist jerks for not doing any of the cooking or cleaning for Easter, but why? It's none of my business how my father and his wife divide the labour around their place. She does WAY more of it, but so what? It works for them, and certainly I'm not going to bring about any feminist change by getting pissed off about it and nagging them about it.[/b]
This is often the quandary for me when I'm the beneficiary of the women-doing-the-dishes, men- retiring-to-the-salon-to-drink-moonshine setup. When it's my wife and I, it's fairly even division of labour. We both love to cook, and we can be fairly opinionated on the right way to do things, so it's not always as harmonious as you might think. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Also, we tend to host orphan parties too (and that's what we call them as well). Good times, the best possible mish-mash of people away from their families.
Sat, 2007-04-07 13:23
#25
quote:
Other than your transgendered friends at the gym, what is the ratio of female to male caterers? I'd bet it's well over 10:1 so my comment was not out of line.Pull your head out of your ass and stop looking for reasons to be offended.
Already making a wonderful impression.
Your comment was not only out of line, it was sexist, stupid and meant only to attempt to stir up shit in the feminist forum. Now once you have your head out of your ass, you might want to apologize.
Sat, 2007-04-07 13:45
#26
Interesting topic.
Around here, the usual set-up is that while everyone sort of helps out with a bit of everything, the women generally do most of the cooking and preparing; the guys (mainly me) do the put-away and kitchen clean up, and the dishwasher does all the dishes.
Automation does have its benefits.
quote:
If you can afford it, have the whole damn thing catered.
Now here I suppose is a somewhat classist, albeit very tempting, idea! [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]cool.gif" border="0[/img] [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
So it's OK if ANOTHER woman prepares the meal?
What's the big deal about that? If she's into it or is paid to do it and does a good job of it, why not?
quote:
Other than your transgendered friends at the gym, what is the ratio of female to male caterers? I'd bet it's well over 10:1 so my comment was not out of line.
Hey, maybe before making dumb bets, as well as dumb comments, you could do yourself a favour and go dig up some info on the net on these rations (men, women, trans-gender caterer owners).
quote:
If a woman owned it, even better, more reason to use a caterer actually.
You can think that way until you happen to run into someone like the woman who ran the catering service at a wedding I was at about five years ago (Trafalgar Caterers, I believe was the name). She was a greedy, anti-union, BC Liberal-loving corporate micro-tyrant who hated "working with Hindus" for whatever stupid reason she had.
Ehtics matter. Gender does not.
quote:
Not another feminist forum, Heywood. Why don't you make like a tree and fuck off, arsehole creeper.
Fidel, how exactly does one "make like a tree" in order to fuck off?
Then again, forget it. I don't really wanna know.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2007-04-07 14:18
#27
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Already making a wonderful impression.
Your comment was not only out of line, it was sexist, stupid and meant only to attempt to stir up shit in the feminist forum. Now once you have your head out of your ass, you might want to apologize.[/b]
Yeah, my purpose in life is impress nimrods on the internet. What a mental case
My original comment was valid. Apparently, some think it inappropriate for the woman to do the work unless she is getting paid for it. Stiring up shit in a feminist forum? What could be more appropriate for a discussion?
You choose to go through life being offended by anything that you don't agree with. Have fun with that.
I'll bet you even go down to the beach in your spare time looking for a dog off a leash, don't you?
Sat, 2007-04-07 14:27
#28
Aw well, I didn't figure you would last long judging by your other posts. I'll let you hang yourself. I'm sure you're good at that. You're probably good at doing most thing alone.
Sat, 2007-04-07 14:31
#29
Oh, I think Stargazers instincts about you are probably right "Chill". Every post you've made here so far indicates that your just another hostile rightwinger who as usual thinks they're much more insightful than they really are. What's worse, you marched in here with a chip already firmly set on your shoulder, like maybe youve been punted from here before. You can blame those scarey feminists all you want, it won't make you anymore appealing to any member of the opposite sex -assuming that's who youre trying to appeal to that is. If you care as little as you say about what others think then how bout taking your own advice and buggering off again?
Sun, 2007-04-08 11:04
#30
regardless of eater or not, this discussion is a microcosm for what should be happening 24/7.
Sun, 2007-04-08 11:24
#31
I must be transgendered.
I really enjoy cooking.
Stargazer can you hook me up with the caterers at your gym? I need more people I can relate to.
Sun, 2007-04-08 12:49
#32
I realise how much everyone hates it when males such as myself use the feminist forum to just swing through and strut their stuff about how pro-feminist they are, but I just want to point out that I can make Easter dinner, glaze a ham, and ban chilled all at once. Cool, huh?
If I may further offend by posting a recipie on the feminist forum, my spirit glaze is as follows:
1/2 cup red wine
1/2 cup bourbon
1 cup brown sugar
8 whole cloves (bruised)
2T orange rind
Mix it up and brush on often while cooking
(now did I just baste chilled and ban a ham or what?)
Sun, 2007-04-08 12:50
#33
As there doesn't seem to be any redeeming value to his presence here on babble, chilled is on ice.
Sun, 2007-04-08 12:52
#34
Ha! I just went to the control panel and you beat me to it!
Sun, 2007-04-08 13:23
#35
Ya see Michelle, I always go to the control panel and ban the person first, then I return to the board and make my pithy little comment.
Happy Easter. Catch lots of eggs?
Sun, 2007-04-08 21:40
#36
lol ! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 08 April 2007: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]
Mon, 2007-04-09 03:17
#37
Obviously your methods are MUCH superior to mine, oldgoat! I like leaving that tiny window in which I wonder whether the banned person is going to be able to slip in that one last little post between my Arnie-one-liner and the toss. It's little things like that which keep the job interesting, you know? [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
I didn't catch a lot of eggs, but the little one did!
Mon, 2007-04-09 05:02
#38
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
[b]Ya see Michelle, I always go to the control panel and ban the person first, then I return to the board and make my pithy little comment.[/b]
I hope this doesn't degenerate into a pithing contest between moderators.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Mon, 2007-04-09 15:46
#39
How I spend Easter depends on who I'm with. When I was still living with my parents, we often went to my grandparents' house at Easter, where my ex-step-grandma would prepare the meal, with the aid of my mother, and the clean-up would rest in the hands of myself (as the oldest daughter of three and the twin to a brother), my mother, and my ex-step-grandma. I always threw up a fuss about it because the men went off to sit their asses on the sofa and watch a baseball game. As a sidenote, what Canadian watches baseball?
Holidays were always extremely gendered around my house. Things have changed somewhat as the kids have moved out, but my mom still does all of the cooking and clean up. My dad has a tendency of putting the ketchup in the fridge and gives himself a pat on the back for a job well done.
Now, I don't really celebrate any holidays. I'm an atheist, and I don't really see the point. However, when I go home for Christmas, I help my mom out as much as possible because she's had no one to help her. I may be being a defeatist here, but I've given up on hoping that the gendered division of labour in my house will change because my dad is set in his ways. I go there now to spend time with my family, and if that's how they choose to live, then so be it. All I can do is be supportive of my mom when my dad starts behaving like a jackass.
Tue, 2007-04-10 04:18
#40
quote:
Originally posted by RP.:
[b]This is often the quandary for me when I'm the beneficiary of the women-doing-the-dishes, men- retiring-to-the-salon-to-drink-moonshine setup. [/b]
Why are you the beneficiary? Why don't you go in and help clean up? You, unlike women like me, who have the choice of either contributing to the gendered atmosphere by helping out, or leaving the work to the other women, are the one with all the power in the world to change this dynamic.
Sorry if this sounds like an attack, but I don't see any quandary for you at all as a man. THIS is the reason this sort of thing persists. Sure, 60 year-old men who don't give a shit about feminism are quite happy to be the beneficiaries of this sort of thing aren't going to do anything to bring about change - they don't want to.
But men who are supposedly enlightened should NEVER be the beneficiary of this sort of thing. Because they shouldn't LET themselves be the beneficiary. They should damned well get up off their asses and help out with the cooking or the clean-up when they find themselves in a highly-gendered holiday environment.
The younger men in my family do the exact same thing, which is fine if they want to grow up to be troglodytes like their fathers. But if I ever see them pretending that they give a shit about women's issues and about the oppression of women, I'll be all over them. For god's sake, if you're a leftist and at all sympathetic to feminist issues, then you should never EVER be a beneficiary to this sort of thing.
There are so many ways that men cannot help being the beneficiary of male privilege in our society. This is not one of those ways.
This sort of family dynamic doesn't change until men - usually the younger generation of men - get off their lazy asses and change it, and perhaps even shame the other men in the family into getting off THEIR lazy asses.
Now, maybe I've misunderstood your post, and you actually do this. If so, then consider this a rant at hypothetical "feminist" guys who let themselves benefit from this sort of gendered atmosphere within their families. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
But if what you meant by saying that you're the "beneficiary" of this dynamic and that it's such a "quandary" is that you go along with the "men retiring to the living room" thing after supper, then I'm sorry, that's not fighting the good fight, and that makes you part of the problem.
Rant over.
[ 10 April 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Tue, 2007-04-10 07:06
#41
Polly B
quote:
Originally posted by Asthenia:
[b]My dad has a tendency of putting the ketchup in the fridge and gives himself a pat on the back for a job well done.[/b]
That was my house growing up - until my mother started taping numbers to the bottoms of plates. Numbers 1 and 2 cleared the table, 3 and 4 were washing and drying, and so on. It was the girls who prepared the meal, and set the table....we hardly ever had to clean up after that.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Tue, 2007-04-10 07:18
#42
I cooked the meal while my spouse entertained her sister and two kids, along with our two kids. Afterwards, I slunk away to another part of the house when dirty dish time came round. Is this considered half empty or half full, or just full of it. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Tue, 2007-04-10 07:43
#43
My spouse, being of Iranian decent, likes to add saffron to poultry during the cooking. While this spice is delightful in many dishes, we tend to alternate turns in cooking to gain some balance between the recipies of her culture and my home province of NF. I'm usually relegated to being the turkey and BBQ man, with the occasional NF samplings. Once I tried my hand at a persian dish, but things got out of hand and it ended up like swill which no one would touch with a pitchfork. I'm now allowed only to set the table and put out condiments and such when she is cooking, and as for the cleanup, I try and be as incompetent at it as possible without raising suspision, to the point where she drives me away so she can get it done faster. And yes, if that's so wrong, then I don't wanna be right, if that is what it takes to avoid dishes.
Tue, 2007-04-10 08:04
#44
Polly B
I love saffron. I was buying some not long ago, and the cashier at Safeway said she had never tried a dish with saffron and wanted to know what it tasted like. Ummm, I don't know...like, saffron? A guy behind me in line came to my rescue with "it kind of makes stuff taste like leather"...
Ha - for those leather dishes.
Tue, 2007-04-10 08:20
#45
Difficult to explain something that tastes like nothing else. You must have paid dearly for it at Safeway. I'm still having trouble making the leather connection. My wife has entertained often with saffron dishes and it's never been confused with a leather party.
Tue, 2007-04-10 11:46
#46
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]I cooked the meal while my spouse entertained her sister and two kids, along with our two kids. Afterwards, I slunk away to another part of the house when dirty dish time came round. Is this considered half empty or half full, or just full of it. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
Heck no. No one is saying that men should do ALL the work. If you cooked the meal, then of course others should wash the dishes.
P.S. Slumberjack, your post about Persian food reminds me - that's one thing I'll say for my ex-husband. When we entertained, he cooked as much as I did, if not more, although he certainly expected me to do more housework than him (and was sadly disappointed when I didn't). He also taught me how to make some Persian dishes, but there are certain ones (like ghormeh sabzi) that were his specialty, and I was happy to let him cook those ones so I wouldn't screw them up.
[ 10 April 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Thu, 2007-08-09 13:30
#47
This article was a great read... In my family, we distribute the cooking and cleaning equally. We think its important for the kids to understand that men belong in the kitchen just as much as men!
Thu, 2007-08-09 15:46
#48
It's mainly me... I should tell the men to clean up their own messes from now on! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2007-08-09 15:48
#49
Welcome Liz, and Jane!
Thu, 2007-08-09 15:53
#50
Sven
quote:
Originally posted by LizHobart:
[b]This article was a great read... In my family, we distribute the cooking and cleaning equally. We think its important for the kids to understand that men belong in the kitchen just as much as men![/b]
That's great role-modeling.