NDP Gets Smart on Crime II
Thu, 2007-05-24 11:38
#1
NDP Gets Smart on Crime II
Thu, 2007-05-24 11:38
#2
This is a continuation from
quote:
Last message by Stockholm:Who in the NDP is "bashing Quebec"???
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009407]he....
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: jrose ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 12:17
#3
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]Who in the NDP is "bashing" Quebec?[/b]
Nobody that I know. The NDP took a very constructive position on Quйbec at its last convention, I thought. I believe the reference to "bashing" may be to someone who never misses an opportunity to denounce "separatists" and accuse Quebeckers of ethnic narrowness, while claiming to be an NDP supporter. I'm quite sure she's just trying to discredit the NDP, because its policy is nothing like what she claims.
Thu, 2007-05-24 12:42
#4
Its not really a 'tough on crime' approach that people here are getting hysterical about. It's a tactical political move to say that the NDP does indeed have a position on crime, prevention and rehabilitation. Normally nothing is heard from them in that regard and its refreshing that they see fit to at least talk about a significant concern among the population. Regardless if the concern is real or imagined, or implanted by the media, it must form part of a well rounded platform. I think the message is designed for swing voters, not the die hard left or right.
Thu, 2007-05-24 14:14
#5
The NDP is concerned about government corruption and the [url=http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=39760283-b77a-4... of corporate Canada and state assets to foreign control hurting [url=http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Business/2007/05/24/4204262-sun.html][b]prod....
quote:
TORONTO -- Canada's global competitiveness continues to decline as weak productivity endangers the country's standard of living, says the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada, blaming low business investment, weak education and excessive regulation, along with "institutional corruption and inefficiency."
The London Free Press article goes on to say that Canada's economy fell from ninth to 16th place wrt "Global Economic Competitivness in the last four years. But that's wrong. I believe they meant to say [b]"Business Competitive Index"[/b], which is a different measure than the Global Economic Competitive Growth Index. Canada, a "G8" and still hewer and drawer economy, has never made the top ten for that list of most competitive global economies. And many people believe it's because Canada has allowed so much foreign ownership of our economy, especially our manufacturing sector considered a linch pin for any developed economy. Canada's energy sector is reminiscent of colonial relationships whereby natural resources are raided at will by an imperialist master nation's industrialists.
Thu, 2007-05-24 14:39
#6
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Nobody that I know. The NDP took a very constructive position on Quйbec at its last convention, I thought. I believe the reference to "bashing" may be to someone who never misses an opportunity to denounce "separatists" and accuse Quebeckers of ethnic narrowness, while claiming to be an NDP supporter. I'm quite sure she's just trying to discredit the NDP, because its policy is nothing like what she claims.[/b]
Always slandering people who disagree with you and your position. And yet you cry like a baby when people put words in your mouth. Be consistent at the very least you hypocrite.
The NDP needs to steal some of the Conservatives thunder when it comes to "Law and Order" issues because they are *perecived* as weak and vulnerable in this area.
You're the one who wants to NDP to stay weak in Quebec to suit your own nefarious agenda.
We have had a slew of drunk drivers who killed people here in Quebec in the last few weeks and people are disgusted at the laws that are not being enforced and at the judges who are not enforcing these laws for whatever reasons. You might not care about people being killed by drunk drivers (**see how easy I put words in your mouth just like you often do to me and others here**) but many people are pissed off at this and want action.
The NDP need to capitalize on these demands and other demands for more "law and order" policies from Canadians. The Liberals have been ignoring Canadians concerns over these issues for years. The NDP can capitalize on this issue.
And Canada just like the US needs to bring in more ass kicking laws against white collar - non violent crimes as well. The white collar riffraff are getting off waaaaay too easy in this country.
quote:
Karine Methot, 23,remained near death Wednesday night. The driver who was arrested has [b]eight impaired-driving convictions[/b], a Montreal police source said."This is the best place on Earth to kill somebody with your car," former provincial justice minister MarcBellemare said. "You can't be pursued by the victim, you'll be compensated for your injuries even if you're the criminal, and the sentences are extremely light."
Yesterday, Raymond Levesque, 57, was charged with failing to stop at the scene of an accident, impaired driving and impaired driving causing injury. On Tuesday night, he tested more than double the legal blood-alcohol limit, a police source said.
[url=http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=5e81c284-7837-4..."Best place on earth to kill someone"[/url]
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: mary123 ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 14:54
#7
Yer in a heap o trouble now, unionist. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2007-05-24 14:55
#8
How be we leave the fights in the last thread, and continue to discuss the actual subject at hand here?
Thu, 2007-05-24 14:57
#9
That's right - "Plateau separatists" have nothing to do with the issue being discussed.
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:01
#10
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Yer in a heap o trouble now, unionist. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] You're right, I'm done for!
I don't care about people being killed by drunk drivers! Let the killers off with a slap on the wrist! Or not even! Put them in detox at public expense, then give them a nice certificate when they graduate!
That's only the start of my nefarious agenda...
You know what really makes mary123 flip out? The NDP adoption of the Sherbrooke Declaration at the convention last year. And my praise for the NDP for finally starting to turn the corner on dealing with the national question in Quйbec.
She can't condemn the NDP for finally starting to "get it" - how would that look? - so she attacks me! It's friggin' beautiful!
Anyway, to get back to the point, I'm on the criminals' side, all the way Josй. Love them criminals! Kill kill kill!
[NOTE and DISCLAIMER: The above is primarily meant in jest and is all suitable for out-of-context quotation by mary123 in her crusade to paint Quebeckers (other than herself of course) as wicked folk.]
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:03
#11
Stick to the topic as Michelle said and don't divert the topic as per your usual.
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: mary123 ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:07
#12
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
[b]Stick to the topic as Michelle said and don't divert.[/b]
Yeah, you're right, sorry for responding to you in kind.
Back to the topic:
What are you advocating for drunk drivers in Quйbec - capital punishment? Or is there something more final?
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:09
#13
I've already said it twice on this thread and on the other thread. We need to steal the Conservatives thunder on "Law and Order" policies. They don't need to own that issue. Go back and read it.
For a start, the laws on the books need to be enforced. They are not for whatever reasons.
Hey Fidel: why are you making fun of me?
And unionist stop slandering you don't like it when people do it to you - don't do it to others.
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: mary123 ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:32
#14
Sorry Mary. I thought your post was right on and that unionist would have to evade and dodge as per usual. Unionist has a tendency to describe the NDP as always one step behind our two old lines parties and what really matters in this frozen Puerto Rico. I've been following the NDP for a long time, and they've always been a progressive voice as opposed to our two old line colonial administrative parties.
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:36
#15
Thanks Fidel. I can see his tricks as well. When a certain point becomes too much to bear, he uses his verbal tricks (or cheesy humour) to distract.
Thanks man I wanted to send you a personal message but alas I can't.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: mary123 ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:43
#16
Fidel, you're ok with her poisonous comments like "Plateau separatists"? The NDP is finally coming to terms with Quйbec issues, and she is panicking over that.
You should find another way to gauge people's opinions than by just checking to see whether they conclude by saying "Go Jack go!"
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:50
#17
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
Stick to the topic as Michelle said and don't divert the topic as per your usual.
You were the one who needlessly brought "Plateau separatists" into the discussion.
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:51
#18
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Fidel, you're ok with her poisonous comments like "Plateau separatists"? The NDP is finally coming to terms with Quйbec issues, and she is panicking over that.You should find another way to gauge people's opinions than by just checking to see whether they conclude by saying "Go Jack go!"[/b]
But this thread is about crime and punishment, an agenda that strikes home for all "c" conservatives and disaffected ones alike.
It seems to me that sovereignty is a fading issue among even Quebec's political parties. I think people want our politicians to get on with running the country instead of creating political sideshows and capitulating to a Washington and corporate agenda. Who's trying to poison the well here ?
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 15:58
#19
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
[b]You were the one who needlessly brought "Plateau separatists" into the discussion.[/b]
Okay, can we just end this now? Not just Lord Palmerston, but everyone else too. Everyone has now registered their disapproval and had their say. Let's get back on topic now.
Thu, 2007-05-24 16:15
#20
quote:
NDP calls for corporate crime crackdown
CBC NewsThe federal NDP is launching a national campaign to pressure the Harper government to tackle wrongdoing in the corporate sector.
The campaign calls for the creation of a "Canada Securities Commission" to oversee provincial commissions, an overhaul of corporate accounting standards and tougher laws on insider trading.
The NDP said every G8 country except Canada introduced major corporate accountability reforms after the Enron and WorldCom scandals.
"The United States and Australia introduced tough legislation on accounting and whistleblowers, both under conservative governments," said Wasylycia-Leis.
"We’re calling on victims of corporate crime to take the lead and join us in fighting for reform."
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2007/05/24/ndp.html]http://www.cbc.ca/mone...
This should be a no brainer for Harper seeing as the United States and Australia already have tough legislation. Let's see what verbal tricks Harper uses to distract us from supporting these much needed reforms.
Thu, 2007-05-24 16:34
#21
They obviously absorbed the good common sense of my posts in the previous smart on crime thread.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
But it doesn't go far enough. Insider trading is but a small part of the picture.
AND no where does it accuse the tories of being soft on crime.
That's what we should be leading with.
Thu, 2007-05-24 16:43
#22
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
[b]This should be a no brainer for Harper seeing as the United States and Australia already have tough legislation. Let's see what verbal tricks Harper uses to distract us from supporting these much needed reforms.[/b]
I think that it's an unwritten rule within the colonial Can-Am setup that this country just never becomes globally competitive like other G8 economies. Canada is a supplier of cheap energy and raw materials to the most wasteful, most oil-dependent and most unsustainable economy in the world. Natural resource wealth and corrupt colonial administratorships go hand-in-hand. Just observe all the political foot dragging on Kyoto. They really don't want to inconvenience our imperial-corporate masters in the U.S. We could be down to our last barrel of oil and cubic metre of gas, and our bozos in Ottawa would make sure that it's siphoned off to the States on the cheap.
Thu, 2007-05-24 19:31
#23
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b] It's a tactical political move to say that the NDP does indeed have a position on crime, prevention and rehabilitation. [/b]
This what I fear, that we will compromise our principles in order to gain some tactical advantage. If we think we have to adopt the language of the fiberals and Tories to be taken seriously we've lost.
Thu, 2007-05-24 19:53
#24
In Sweden (the country that I am the capital of) anyone caught with even a trace of alcohol on their breath when driving, gets an automatic six months in jail with NO ALLOWANCES whatsoever - as a result drunk driving is now extremely rare in Sweden.
Sometimes mandatory minimum sentences are a very effective good idea.
Thu, 2007-05-24 20:16
#25
I agree, Stockholm. I think the feds should insist that all taxpayer handouts to corporate fraud artists should be witheld immediately and companies investigated by Revenue Canada for deferred and unpaid income taxes. The feds could save billions of dollars every year.
quote:
[url=http://osgoode.yorku.ca/media2.nsf/83303ffe5af03ed585256ae6005379c9/0e56... & Young(2004)[/url] fraud investigator Don Holmes estimates that white-collar crime costs Canadians $20-billion a year. The Canadian judiciary needs to recognize not only the magnitude and impact of corporate misconduct on large segments of the population, but also the broader ramifications of corporate crime on the Canadian economy.
In the U.S., health care fraud alone is said to be worth $30 billion a year. And our old line parties want to hand pieces of our health care delivery to their companies. God help us.
Considering that white collar crime is worth several times what blue collar street thefts represent every year, where do we think the most money and resources are allocated wrt policing, warehousing criminals, tax fraud investigations and legal system ?. Without all the legal system and policing to back it up, the world of plutocratic rule and protection of private property on behalf of a handful of wealthy people would come to an end. They are afraid of ordinary people more than the real crooks.
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 20:27
#26
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
[b]We have had a slew of drunk drivers who killed people here in Quebec in the last few weeks and people are disgusted at the laws that are not being enforced and at the judges who are not enforcing these laws for whatever reasons. You might not care about people being killed by drunk drivers (**see how easy I put words in your mouth just like you often do to me and others here**) but many people are pissed off at this and want action.[/b]
What are the penalties in Quebec for drunk driving? In Manitoba that will cost you your driver's licence quite quickly.
Thu, 2007-05-24 20:40
#27
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
[b]What are the penalties in Quebec for drunk driving? In Manitoba that will cost you your driver's licence quite quickly.[/b]
Honestly, Aristotleded24, Quйbec is still part of Canada, notwithstanding mary123's tale of woe about drunk driving epidemics in Quйbec. The penalties in Quйbec are exactly the same as in Manitoba - including mandatory minimum licence suspensions, fines, imprisonment. Drunk driving is federal, not provincial. See sections 253 to 259 of the Criminal Code.
That's why I asked her what more severe penalties she was looking for.
Thu, 2007-05-24 20:51
#28
Maybe judges in Quebec just don't take drunk driving very seriously?
Thu, 2007-05-24 20:51
#29
How many MP's and MPP's have been caught drinking and driving ?. I'll bet it's a few
quote:
The NDP’s plan also entails an increased mandate for the [url=http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=6d10d6d5-bf4a-4...’s Integrated Market Enforcement Team[/url] and greater protection for employees who blow the whistle on corporate wrongdoing.“Canada can no longer be known as a place where people can squirm away from corporate fraud. We want legislation to police the financial ‘wild west,’” said Wasylycia-Leis.
I like the idea of a crackdown on corporate fraud perps whether they're sober or not. Come to think of it, our senators are supposed to be sober second thinkers, but I doubt that's true after lunch and slim chances after cocktail hours.
Thu, 2007-05-24 20:58
#30
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]Maybe judges in Quebec just don't take drunk driving very seriously?[/b]
Try reading Section 259 of the Criminal Code. It has [b]MINIMUM[/b] prohibitions on operating motor vehicles - you know, "MINIMUM", the kind you like.
Unless Quйbec judges are corrupt, you know, taking payoffs from Seagram's and Labatt? - could be - mary123 would be the expert on why drunk drivers in Quйbec get away with murder. Perhaps it's the Gallic joie de vivre? Or a little bashing? I dunno.
Thu, 2007-05-24 21:14
#31
I was pulled over by QPP somewhere between Matagami and Noranda back in '88. I was driving the geologist from Toronto's car. Lucky for them I was sober to Noranda. There were four of us, and we were all high on homemade wine, except for me of course, open bottles in front and back seats and heading for the peelers and a night on the the town. The plates on the car were Quebec, but that was because "Powl" had 30 some odd unpaid traffic tickets in Ontario, and he was away from his mother's place in TO for year-long contract in PQ. We received a fine under a hundred bucks and a stern warning. The bars closed at 2 am, and so we drove back to Matagami for 7am, just in time to pack up and head out for work in the scorching day's sun. My head felt like a ripe pumpkin, and if I had a gun at the time I think i'd 'a used it, too. Northern lights were way cool, like we wuz on another planet, man. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 22:20
#32
quote:
We need to steal the Conservatives thunder on "Law and Order" policies.
What do you mean by this? Are you saying that the NDP should be more right winged on 'law and order'. Isn't law and order a conservative idea?
Don't we need law and order because of the inequalities of capitalism?
How did Trotsky state it?
something like this....
When there is enough of the things people want then they go to the store when they feel like it... When there are not enough of the things people want they line up for them. As the line gets longer you need police to watch the line.....
So If this is correct ... then what would you like to see the NDP do ... Add more police? Punish the people more? Add more restrictions?
According the Trotsky the problem is the line.....Then the need to inforce it better....
How does crime relate to demographics?
Young people cause none violent crimes becuase they do not confront the victom.... violent crimes are commited be people in there 20- 40(?). White color crimes are commited by older people...
something like this....
So what demographic do you want the NDP to confront?????
Maybe they can make the older baby boomers feel better by cracking down on youths and the middle group....
Thu, 2007-05-24 22:24
#33
Maybe we should be more like Sweden ... That sounds great....
Hold a gun to everyones head to make sure they don't do anything wrong...
For every miss deed the answer is a stronger deterent....
You all are missing the point ....
the problem is Capitalism not the inadiquit laws of this nation....
This new found glory by the NDP for law and order is just one more point they need to pick before they become the new bourgeoisie political party headquarters...
Thu, 2007-05-24 22:33
#34
Honestly, Aristotleded24, notwithstanding unionist's hysterical tales about members of this community here's what MADD (Mother's Against Drunk Driving) Montreal's Theresa Anne Kramer had to say on the issue of drunk driving in Quebec.
quote:
Quebecers' lax attitudes toward drinking and driving make it possible for recidivist impaired drivers to repeatedly get back behind the wheel, Mothers Against Drunk Driving charged Friday.The group's comments came as a 23-year-old woman lay in a Montreal hospital effectively brain-dead after being struck by a minivan driven by an alleged drunk driver.
Karine Methot sustained serious head injuries after being hit by a Dodge Caravan on Tuesday evening.
The impact knocked Methot out of her shoes, Montreal police said.
Raymond Levesque, 57, has pleaded not guilty to three charges: impaired driving causing injury, impaired driving, and failing to stop at the scene of an accident.
[b]Levesque, whose bail hearing will be held next Friday, has six prior drunk-driving convictions, the last one dating back to 1996.[/b]
"The laws are in place and they are not being applied," said MADD Montreal's Theresa Anne Kramer, questioning why Levesque was able to drive unchecked.
"You have to wonder where Quebec is at in terms of treating this crime seriously."
[b]Unlike other parts of the country, Quebec police officers do not have the authority to make an on-the-spot, 24-hour suspension of a licence if they catch someone drinking and driving, Kramer said.[/b]
[b]Additionally, the rules governing new drivers in Quebec are less strict than other parts of the country.[/b] Regulations exist in Ontario that limit the number of passengers in a car with a new driver, as well as when and where they are allowed to drive.
"In these respects, Quebec is far behind," Kramer said.
[b]Former Quebec justice minister Marc Bellemare agreed, saying "we're too sympathetic."
He said in an interview that Crown prosecutors need to go after tougher sentences and that perhaps minimum sentences for drunk drivers would help. Reworking Quebec's Highway Safety Code, which Bellemare says is weaker than in the rest of the country, wouldn't hurt. ."[/b]
As the MADD rep for Montreal said and I repeat for those a little slow here [b]"The laws are in place and they are not being applied,"[/b]
[url=http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=94f8332d-a146-4... drivers in Quebec[/url]
unionist stop your slandering and bullying, you were warned by Michelle already earlier. The rules of this board apply to you as well - don't arrogantly think you are above the rules here.
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: mary123 ]
Thu, 2007-05-24 23:11
#35
[url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070510/drunk_drivi... suspect has 6 drunk-driving offences[/url]
quote:
In most provinces, repeat offenders face a lifetime suspension from driving. And in Ontario man was recently sentenced to 12-and-a-half years for a drunk driving causing death."They just cannot be allowed to drive. It's just like giving a loaded gun to a person who's out of control."
[b]But in Quebec, the maximum suspension for repeat offenders of drunk driving is five years.[/b]
So the sentencing of drunk drivers is not uniform across Canada.
MADD released a report in 2006 Rating the Provinces on law enforcement of drunk driving.
Manitoba came out on top. Nova Scotia and Quйbec have fallen sharply in the 2006 rankings, and New Brunswick, Nunavut and Prince Edward Island have made little progress from their relatively poor showings in 2003.
Here's the full 2006 report card for Quebec
[url=http://www.madd.ca/english/news/pr/p06oct19_que.htm]http://www.madd.ca/e...
[ 24 May 2007: Message edited by: mary123 ]
Fri, 2007-05-25 00:47
#36
Listen, unionist, we get the idea. You really don't like mary123. You don't need to keep needling her in every post. It's really getting on my nerves. If she posts something you don't like, or against babble policy, write to a moderator about it. Otherwise, lay off.
Fri, 2007-05-25 01:40
#37
Stockholm: "In Sweden (the country that I am the capital of) anyone caught with even a trace of alcohol on their breath when driving, gets an automatic six months in jail with NO ALLOWANCES whatsoever - as a result drunk driving is now extremely rare in Sweden."
A good idea. If our police forces enforced the rules evenly and fairly, then it might even work. I wonder, for instance, what the stats are for rural drivers being caught for DWI\DUI vs our urban and much more numerous counterparts? Or is it just because we're all rednecks out here? Some truth in that, likely. But the un-even inforcement bothers me.
Will any whistle blower legistlation work when it's a private citizen blowing the whistle on felonious government departments and workers? Or is the private sector not to be trusted over the unionized public sector?
[ 25 May 2007: Message edited by: Farmpunk ]
Fri, 2007-05-25 09:40
#38
How do you know the enforcement is uneven now ?. I think Canada's reputation for crookedness stems from both sectors of the economy and sometimes with complicity of the feds. And Canada has a smaller public sector than Scandinavian countries.
Fri, 2007-05-25 10:19
#39
quote:
the problem is Capitalism not the inadiquit laws of this nation....This new found glory by the NDP for law and order is just one more point they need to pick before they become the new bourgeoisie political party headquarters...
I have news for you. I all these supposed "socialist workers' paradise" place like Cuba and North Korea and the Soviety blob before the fall of the Berlin Wall - criminal laws were and are enforced very, very strictly including very regular use of the death penalty.
Something tells me that a 16 year old who committed a gun crime in the former Soviet Union would be lucky to only get sentenced to 20 years hard labour in Siberia!
Fri, 2007-05-25 14:12
#40
Or worse, the offender could be enduring torture in a secret CIA prison somewhere in Eastern Europe,
Or how about the largest incarcerated population on the island of Cuba at Gitmo Bay ?
And lo, to be a gun offender or three strikes unlucky doing hard time in the country with the largest gulag population in the world today, the U.S.A.
Fri, 2007-05-25 14:49
#41
What does US policy in Gitmo have to do with the fact that every single solitary so-called socialist regime in human history has been extremely hardline when it came to crime.
We always know when "Fidel" is losing an argument when he resorts to talkingt about the CIA and Guantanamo Bay - it's almost as embarrassing as having to prove ones point by using the Nazis anbd Hitler as an example.
Fri, 2007-05-25 15:10
#42
The Yanks have more people incarcerated and basic rights being violated at Gitmo Bay than are imprisoned anywhere else on the island of Cuba. And now for the obligatory closing out phrase suggesting a victorious rebuttal has been issued in sledge hammer fashion, "'nuff said." Jeez I hate that one. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2007-05-25 17:51
#43
Who cares whether or not the American are incarcerating anyone at Gitmo? This has ZERO to do with this discussion about whether or not mandatory minimum sentences are appropriate for certain crimes in Canada.
If you want to start a thread about Gitmo, go ahead and do this - but your point contributes absolutely nothing to this topic.
If the American were NOT imprisoning anyone at Gitmo, would that make the NDP policies on crime any more or less agreeable?
Fri, 2007-05-25 21:12
#44
You're too tenths, Stockholmer. So stop slamming a country you apparently know nothing about never mind having never visited, and you won't find yourself in awkward situations like this. Carry on after the part where you began bashing Cuba, please
Fri, 2007-05-25 23:24
#45
To answer Stackholms question about the socialist countries and law and order...
I guess the only logical answer is that those countries are not and never were socialist...
but that would be to easy of an answer and would not fit into his interpratation of the world .....
Fri, 2007-05-25 23:34
#46
it seems to me that this Stockholm person wants everyone to take up his ideas of aa society that is somewhat authoritative.
Insteed of proving his points he goads people into excepting his interpratation of life but exposing all the contradictions out there...
So he uses the example and pointing out that there are already minimum sentences in law , his conclusion is taht we should either add more to them or get rid of the ones we have...
I say lets not add any more and then review the ones we have... and while we are at it lets understand why we have all these laws to begin with. That way we can start to disipate the need for more authority in our lives....
So I guess the ultimate problem would be.... Is the NDP on the side of disipating the need for authority or is it on the side of adding more...
Sat, 2007-05-26 05:17
#47
Like I said in the other thread, poor and working class people and neighbourhoods are more often than not the victims of crime. I view lax treatment of criminals as an attack on working class and poor people.
The original paper linked to in the previous thread detailed spending and much emphasis on prevention programs. In fact, that was the main thrust, and I think this is a great idea.
Having said this though, there are certain crimes that are a statement by the perpetrators that they are not to be trusted with liberty. While I believe that the deprivation of liberty in a democratic society should be something we never, ever take lightly, being too forgiving abridges the liberty of law abiding citizens.
Previous governments, I think in recognition that the circumstances in every crime are different, have allowed a wide sentencing lattitude to judges. Too wide.
Minimum sentences for gun crimes are certainly not out of order. Nor would they be out of order for crimes where particularly vulnerable people, such as childern, the disabled or the elderly are the victims.
I really do tend to give people the benifit of the doubt. But how much doubt is there with people who spray bullets into a street full of people? How much doubt is there with a person who sexually assaults his daughter, gives her gonorea, and ignores her cries of pain as the infection goes untreated?
Releasing such people back into the community is an assault upon that community.
Sat, 2007-05-26 05:21
#48
quote:
So stop slamming a country you apparently know nothing about never mind having never visited, and you won't find yourself in awkward situations like this. Carry on after the part where you began bashing Cuba, please
First of all, I have been to to Cuba several times. Second of all, I never "bashed" Cuba. But someone else made this ludicrous assertion that getting "tough on crime" was part of a "capitalistic" agenda and I was simply pointing out that many countries that no one would accuse of being "capitalist" (including Cuba) also have very hardline policies on crime.
Why don't you do some research on what sort of punishment is in store for a 16 year old who commits a gun crime in Cuba? I can assure you it won't be pretty - nor should it be.
Sat, 2007-05-26 05:27
#49
London's Police Chief Goes Balistic Again:
[url=http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2007/05/26/4209688-sun.html]From the London Sun and Church Bulletin[/url]
I think it's the Crown who should be in shit over this particular instance. Somebody in that office should get fired.
But then, to ask that professional people in Canada act with some kind of professionalism is apparently too much to ask.
Sat, 2007-05-26 05:33
#50
I think Tommy Paine has hit upon a certain hypocrisy or contradiction within NDP/left thinking that not only prevents it from gaining power, but drives its very core constituents- the working class (however you define it) straight into the hands of conservative, law and order politicians.
Working people suffer the most from crime, yet the liberals insist on politically correct labels like 'poverty based crime' or insist on handing out free drugs and heroin or saying that we must tolerate homelessness until there's enough money to eradicate it (which there never will be unless we tax everyone to death). And worst of all that policing and imprisonment is never a solution. Failing to recognize the importance of law enforcement hurts them in the eyes of voters. Years of liberalism in NYC in the 70s ended when all the liberals got mugged and were finally sick of it -resulting in a Giuliani administration that cleane up the city.
Of course, the most egregious and conceited members of the left are the rich left. The sight of celebrities boasting of their Toyota Prius' and green lifestyle would be funny if we didn't realize the truth that working people can't afford a Prius or a green home. Or Joe Lunchbox, a plumber, needs to drive a big pick up truck to carry hundreds of tools. Or working, union people stand to lose jobs if legislation closes their factories simply because global warming has become the new religion.
The hard fact is that working people want the politicians to let the police enforce the law and stop thinking that society is to blame for acts of crime. It is ironic that alot of working folk support law and order candidates even if their economic policies are conservative.
Sat, 2007-05-26 05:55
#51
Whether they realize it or not, the liberal thinkers on crime got their origins from when the law was an active, violent oppressor of working class people and the poor.
It stems from when the British so feared the example of the guillotine durring the terror in France, that they attempted to stave it off with the noose in London.
Few working class people I talk to, who are in favour of a "get tough on crime" approach mention giving more power to the police. Most have, at one time or another, been rousted by idiot cops, and know where that leads to.
What is needed is recognition that there are, few though they may be, some people who need to be separated from society, if not forever, then for such a long time that age sufficiently reduces the chances for recitivism.
We can't fix everyone. And there are some that don't even merit our attempts.
[ 26 May 2007: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]