NDP Gets Smart on Crime III

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Sat, 2007-06-09 16:15

remind

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]I am more concerned about crimes of violence than i am of crimes against property. If someone robs me or commits tax evasion or fraud or embezzlement - I can survive. but if i am murdered or assaulted or raped - I will never recover. For that reason i think that penalties for violent crimes shojdl always be far more strict than penalties for money and property crimes.[/b]

Crimes of violence can be mitigated and decreased though social programs, skills, and education, we would be far better off investing in social/educational programs, above incarcerating and making repeat offenders.

However, white collar crimes are greed based and are harmful to citizens well being. Greed cannot be lessened though education and programs. But it can be controlled through actually charging and convicting people. Plus white collar creed destroys peoples and nations, we need look no further than Iraq or Afganistan for recent examples of white collar greed killing massive amounts of people.

You are a right wing vengence seeker, that thinks the only way to stop violent crime is through building bigger and better jails. Which, when ones actually uses rational thinking does nothing to prevent violent crimes.

Property crimes are usually crimes motivated by poverty and addictions. Easily fixed if money was adequate.
------------------------------------

Frankly, I am more worried about the Vietnamese organized criminals than the Hells Angels, here in BC.

Sat, 2007-06-09 17:24

#53

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
Well, which category do the grow ups fall into? Which category do the Hells Angels fall into?[/b]

I'm not sure, but I believe the RCMP have closed down offices in Hell's backyards like T.R. and smaller towns around Montreal. Bikers in Quebec and Ontario like it when the feds give up whole towns to them. The feds could save the economy billions of dollars a year lost to white collar crime though. Like the NDP says, there are no laws to even deal with some aspects of it. Smart criminals and dumb feds are a good combination for crime that pays and lost confidence in an economy due to lax law enforcement.

Sat, 2007-06-09 18:53

#54

Pepper-Pot

Evidence shows that high poverty rates correlate with high crime rates. If you lower the poverty rates, ala Nordic-Scandinavian social democracy, you lower the crime rates. The US has poverty rates of 33% in Detroit, and it also has 10-20 times more homicides than nearby Toronto.

Also, the organized crime frenzy re: cannabis, is wholly caused by prohibition and criminalization of the non-lethal, basically non-addictive herb.

If you were to ban coffee (which kills more people than cannabis, via caffeine-based exacerbation of cardiac arrhythmia), you'd facilitate an organized crime takeover of the coffee industry, and all of the deleterious effects it would cause...

If you legalize Cannabis, tax it at 30-70%, and give all that money to the poor, we'd be a much better society.

Sat, 2007-06-09 19:21

#55

bohajal

quote:

I am more concerned about crimes of violence than i am of crimes against property. If someone robs me or commits tax evasion or fraud or embezzlement - I can survive. but if i am murdered or assaulted or raped - I will never recover. For that reason i think that penalties for violent crimes shojdl always be far more strict than penalties for money and property crimes. -Stockholm

No wonder that you do not give a fig about racism and human rights abuses in Canada, the USA and the rest of the capitalist biggies. They usually do not involve physical violence.

You are a fake NDPer, Stockholm. A fraud. Perhaps a plant to "re-educate the Canadian left".

Are you counting How many Babblers -so far- questioned your NDP-ship ? I am and I promise more will do same once they pay attention to the crap coming out of your keyboard.

Sat, 2007-06-09 20:15

#56

Stockholm

Fuck off

Sat, 2007-06-09 20:51

#57

Pepper-Pot

Apparently, Stockholm is still flailing away while donning the blindfold of oblivion, while simultaneously being an apologist for the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib paradigm/cloak of deception.

Flustered too.

Sat, 2007-06-09 20:57

#58

Michelle

What the hell is this? Bohojal, did someone die and appoint you the NDP purity police of babble?

You're out of line here. Stockholm didn't do anything wrong in the quote you pulled from his post. You can disagree with him without attacking him personally. Cut it out.

Sat, 2007-06-09 21:28

#59

Pepper-Pot

I think his name is "bohajal".

Apparently, exposing those individuals who continually promote and apologize for Neo-Liberal & Neo-Conservative policies/paradigms, while they simultaneously wear a fake "NDP'er" badge, is illicit on this site.

It says on Google this is a left-wing discussion forum. Yet Stockholm gets coddled, and bohajal gets bashed.

Hmmmm.

Sat, 2007-06-09 21:37

#60

Erik Redburn

Ya, it's all part of the grande capitalist conspiracy, like those who support immigration and progressive taxation. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Sat, 2007-06-09 21:44

#61

Pepper-Pot

Just like a typical right-winger, erikthe3/4blueelephant drops the "c" word, as if no secretive manipulations happen in North American media, internet, gov't or society.

It *probably isn't* a conspiracy, but the *possibility* is there.

More likely, however, is that "Stockholm/Austin" and "erikthehalfared/erikthe3/4blueelephant" are unwittingly shallow, naive, ignorant, oblivious default apologists for Neo-Con/Neo-Lib policies.

Sat, 2007-06-09 21:49

#62

Unionist

Is there some way to shut Pepper-Pot up?

Sat, 2007-06-09 21:51

#63

Pepper-Pot

The penalty for even WANTING to shut me up, or bohajal for that matter, is continued NDP impotence and a shift of the North American left to the Neo-Liberal right.

You can pursue the penalty if you wish.

Sat, 2007-06-09 21:54

#64

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by Pepper-Pot:
[b]The penalty for even WANTING to shut me up, or bohajal for that matter, is continued NDP impotence and a shift of the North American left to the Neo-Liberal right.
You can pursue the penalty if you wish.[/b]

You should keep expounding your ideas. Stop piling on Stockholm, Erik, or anyone else. It's very infantile at best. Your views are much more interesting than your insults.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:10

#65

Erik Redburn

quote:

Originally posted by Pepper-Pot:
[b]The penalty for even WANTING to shut me up, or bohajal for that matter, is continued NDP impotence and a shift of the North American left to the Neo-Liberal right.
You can pursue the penalty if you wish.[/b]

Yup, you got us all now, what will the left ever do without you and Bohajal leading the way? [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] What an ego.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:13

#66

Pepper-Pot

quote:

Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
You should keep expounding your ideas. Stop piling on Stockholm, Erik, or anyone else. It's very infantile at best. Your views are much more interesting than your insults.[/b]

That's simply your personal & subjective summation. Much like a movie review. It's not absolute objective truth.

I'm not purposefully piling on anyone, just bravely smashing the concepts and ideas contained within Neo-Liberal apologism.

If someone gets their feelings hurt because they employ Neo-Lib thought on what's listed as a "left-wing discussion forum", that's not my fault, nor is it wrong or unjust.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:22

#67

Erik Redburn

Sorry Unionist, he won't be denied, his insults really are more interesting than his views...

But enough from me, I've spread enough neo-liberal propaganda now, my work here is done.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:31

#68

Pepper-Pot

Good.

And take your Neo-Lib/Neo-Con immigration policies and Neo-Lib/Neo-Con taxation policies with you !!!

Oblivious right-leaning folks cause the death of the North American left, especially when they infiltrate it.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:35

#69

Erik Redburn

I'd suggest looking up the word 'irony' in the dictonary but that probably wouldn't give you enough to work with.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:38

#70

Pepper-Pot

I'd suggest looking up the word "depth" in the dictionary, but it wouldn't mean anything tangible or ubiquitous to you.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:40

#71

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
[b]Sorry Unionist, he won't be denied, his insults really are more interesting than his views... [/b]

On further reflection, you may be right.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:44

#72

Pepper-Pot

quote:

Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
On further reflection, you may be right.[/b]

Yes, indeed he is (spectrum-wise).

And you can pile on all you want, without any refutational ability, merely a hyper-sensitive conformist denouncenment of a style you find too provocative and irritating.

Maybe you should both change/tweak your reactional tendencies, and argumentative skills.

A stylistically based superficial pile-on has zero effect on me because it is a swing and a miss.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:46

#73

Erik Redburn

Yes, you apparently read a website on the subject and repeated it for every other point made, I'm truly impressed. You must be much deeper than I am. See, I just saved you that trip to the library. Don't thank me tho, that's just the helpful kinda guy I am. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:49

#74

Pepper-Pot

Superficiality and sarcasm will get you EVERYWHERE : in the realm of Neo-Liberal oblivion.

Sat, 2007-06-09 22:54

#75

remind

Ok, PP, really you need to stop. Erik is no more Liberal than I am, let alone neo-Liberal. Perhaps your excitement of belonging to a left site has blinded your perspective?

Sat, 2007-06-09 23:11

#76

Pepper-Pot

No remind, not at all.

When I see implicit Neo-Liberal apologism I smash it.

If someone ignores the Nordic-Scandinavian model of progressive taxation, they get smashed by the left.

If someone supports the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib immigration policies of Canada and the US, they get smashed by the left.

I'm not the only one doing the smashing, but the stylistically based conformity and hyper-sensitive reactional tendencies are currently being manifested in the (ineffective) Pepper-Pot Pile-On.

It's ultimately all part of a social-democratic revolution in North America, and if a few babblers get bruised by piling on, while I employ sheer agility in sidestepping the attempt, it's all fine by me. Heck, I'll even supply the bandages for the hyper-sensitive stylistic conformists who bruise themselves.

Sat, 2007-06-09 23:25

#77

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by remind:
[b]
Crimes of violence can be mitigated and decreased though social programs, skills, and education, we would be far better off investing in social/educational programs, above incarcerating and making repeat offenders.
However, white collar crimes are greed based and are harmful to citizens well being. Greed cannot be lessened though education and programs.[/b]

Would you be willing to make these statements to people who had been seriously injured, perhaps maimed for life, as a result of a serious assualt? Would you be willing to make these statements to surviving family members who had lost someone because of murder or manslaughter?

Sat, 2007-06-09 23:27

#78

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by Pepper-Pot:
[b]If you legalize Cannabis, tax it at 30-70%, and give all that money to the poor, we'd be a much better society.[/b]

So in other words, these large scale criminal enterprises are profitable, and the people running them are rational, successful criminals. They are not desperate victims of poverty.

Sat, 2007-06-09 23:30

#79

Pepper-Pot

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
Would you be willing to make these statements to people who had been seriously injured, perhaps maimed for life, as a result of a serious assualt? Would you be willing to make these statements to surviving family members who had lost someone because of murder or manslaughter?[/b]

You are looking more at the emotive, personal, and anecdotal response to punishment, while remind is trying to see the big picture of causation and prevention.

But one element that must be mentioned within remind's preventative prescription is poverty. The more wealth redistribution you implement, the less poverty you induce. And the less poverty you induce, the less crime you breed.

Sat, 2007-06-09 23:41

#80

Pepper-Pot

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
So in other words, these large scale criminal enterprises are profitable, and the people running them are rational, successful criminals. They are not desperate victims of poverty.[/b]

Give licenses to non-criminals (those who have never committed a violent act, or property theft)for production and distribution rights, limit it to small & medium sized licensed and monitored businesses. Many involved in the drug trade come from poverty, so now (under the current status-quo) they are rich but criminalized.

If you criminalize the production of coffee, you criminalize the production of coffee.

I offer the legalized Cannabis scenario with 30-70% taxation as an alternative to the destructive status-quo of rigidly hypocritical puritanical Falwellian prohibitionism.

Let people find legit ways out of poverty. Tax adult recreational products at a very high rate and give that money to impoverished mothers, fathers and children.

That's the best I and others can come up with for now.

Throw the idea in the trash if you wish.

But there is a societal penalty for that.

Sun, 2007-06-10 05:55

#81

bohajal

Exposed for his minimizing and dismissal of acts of racism and discrimination on the grounds that they (generally) do not involve "violence", Stockholm responded:

quote:

Fuck off

His claim that support of immigration as a yardstick for "progressiveness" debunked, EriKtheHalfaRed replied:

quote:

Yup, you got us all now, what will the left ever do without you and Bohajal leading the way?

While I never claimed and will never claim or aspire to lead the left, I may claim that I got you and Stockholm. Try to back up your theory that if one supports immigration ergo he/she is a "progressive".

Sun, 2007-06-10 06:13

#82

Stockholm

It seems to me that poverty is a root cause of crimes involving money and property. But when people commit acts of violence it is a different story.

That's why I think the system ought to be relatively lenient when it comes to crimes like a single mother shop-lifting some food etc...

But when people commit crimes like rape or assault and battery or murder etc... then i think they need to be incarcerated because they represent a physical danger to society.

Sun, 2007-06-10 08:22

#83

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by Pepper-Pot:
[b]
You are looking more at the emotive, personal, and anecdotal response to punishment, while remind is trying to see the big picture of causation and prevention.
But one element that must be mentioned within remind's preventative prescription is poverty. The more wealth redistribution you implement, the less poverty you induce. And the less poverty you induce, the less crime you breed.[/b]

I don't really buy any of this. Poverty results in some crime rates rising, especially when it's associated with gangs, drugs, etc. It most certainly is not responsible for all crime, and not for the most serious organized crimes. Professional mobsters are rich, hiding behind their "investments".

Poverty demands a solution in its own right, not becuase the middle class wants to protect itself from burglaries, but because it's a terrible waste of human resources, and because it's a damnable social injustice.

The most serious criminals are not motivated by the desperation of poverty, but by the prospect of immense wealth. In BC, as I pointed out earlier, the gross revenues to illegal marijuana growers are probably greater than that of forestry products, and that money is everywhere, including the political system. The same thing is going on elsewhere.

Sun, 2007-06-10 08:27

#84

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]But when people commit crimes like rape or assault and battery or murder etc... then i think they need to be incarcerated because they represent a physical danger to society.[/b]

Agreed. And for some sad reason, ... a polite term for rigid ideological blinkers that are on tight 24/7/365, there are some people on the left who don't recognize this. They want to start talking about white collar crime when the question is about a murderer.

I agree that white collar criminals are getting a free ride in Canada, compared even to the "free enterprise" U.S.! And that's not a result of 16 months of Tories, it's the accumulated result of decades of so-called Liberals. But none of this is any reason to refuse to reconsider the sentences we are handing out to people who have destroyed life and limb. On both punishment and deterrence grounds, and in most instances in rehabilitation grounds as well, people who've killed or seriously injured people and pose a clear risk need longer periods of detention for the social workers and psychologists and vocational instructors and drug/alcohol counsellors to have a reasonable chance at altering their conduct.

Sun, 2007-06-10 13:00

#85

remind

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]Would you be willing to make these statements to people who had been seriously injured, perhaps maimed for life, as a result of a serious assualt? Would you be willing to make these statements to surviving family members who had lost someone because of murder or manslaughter?[/b]

Okay, a clarification is in order.

When speaking of education and social programs, I am speaking of getting to those in need, before they become marginalized and in turn become criminals.

Following that would be implimenting stronger programs, for education, counselling and skills training for those who are incarcerated as youths, or first time offenders.

However, for those who are already serious violent offenders, more lengthy and indepth social programs and skills training would be needed.

And yes, I would say that to someone who is recovering, and to family members as well.

Sun, 2007-06-10 15:06

#86

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]It seems to me that poverty is a root cause of crimes involving money and property. But when people commit acts of violence it is a different story.
That's why I think the system ought to be relatively lenient when it comes to crimes like a single mother shop-lifting some food etc...
But when people commit crimes like rape or assault and battery or murder etc... then i think they need to be incarcerated because they represent a physical danger to society.[/b]

Of course those who commit violent crimes need to be incarcerated, but the American model of hardline hyper-incarceration exacerbates crime, and the Danish model, a softer approach, even with violent criminals, reduces recitivism.

Evidence also shows that poverty is indeed a risk factor for committing acts of violence. The overwhelming majority of those locked up for violent crime in North America come from impoverished backgrounds.

To deny this verified leftist perspective is to spread Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative propoganda, as you continually do on this forum, yet Pepper-Pot, the one who helped expose this, gets banned by the "moderator".

While token right wing mascot Heywood Floyd gets the thumbs up.

Hmmmm.

Sun, 2007-06-10 15:13

#87

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
I don't really buy any of this. Poverty results in some crime rates rising, especially when it's associated with gangs, drugs, etc. It most certainly is not responsible for all crime, and not for the most serious organized crimes. Professional mobsters are rich, hiding behind their "investments".
Poverty demands a solution in its own right, not becuase the middle class wants to protect itself from burglaries, but because it's a terrible waste of human resources, and because it's a damnable social injustice.
The most serious criminals are not motivated by the desperation of poverty, but by the prospect of immense wealth. In BC, as I pointed out earlier, the gross revenues to illegal marijuana growers are probably greater than that of forestry products, and that money is everywhere, including the political system. The same thing is going on elsewhere.[/b]

You are spouting Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative propaganda, and providing an anti-left view when it comes to crime.

You don't buy it, the truth, because you have a Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative belief tendency.

Poverty is indeed a risk factor when it comes to crime, all types, as you can see the 25-39% poverty rates in the US correlate with rampant crime, you can see 15-20% poverty rates in Canada correlate with moderate crime rates, and you can see 3-9% poverty rates in Nordic-Scandinavia correlate with low crime rates.

Again, the overwhelming majority of violent criminals incarcerated in the US come from impoverished backgrounds.

Poverty isn't a lone & absolute causal factor, but it is indeed a risk factor.

When someone is impoverished, they are more likely to be desperate and stressed, and have a greater likelihood of feeling pressured into criminal acts to get themselves some relief from poverty.

Sun, 2007-06-10 15:25

#88

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
Agreed. And for some sad reason, ... a polite term for rigid ideological blinkers that are on tight 24/7/365, there are some people on the left who don't recognize this. They want to start talking about white collar crime when the question is about a murderer.
I agree that white collar criminals are getting a free ride in Canada, compared even to the "free enterprise" U.S.! And that's not a result of 16 months of Tories, it's the accumulated result of decades of so-called Liberals. But none of this is any reason to refuse to reconsider the sentences we are handing out to people who have destroyed life and limb. On both punishment and deterrence grounds, and in most instances in rehabilitation grounds as well, people who've killed or seriously injured people and pose a clear risk need longer periods of detention for the social workers and psychologists and vocational instructors and drug/alcohol counsellors to have a reasonable chance at altering their conduct.[/b]

If you and others continue to ignore and dismiss the ever-increasing poverty rates under the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib monopoly in North America, you will fail to see the ever-increasing crime rates. Both are facts, and there is indeed an inter-relationship, likely an indirect or even direct correlation.

If you want to reduce crime, especially violent crime, we must emulate the Nordic-Scandinavian model of progressive tax/fines, wealth redistribution, poverty reduction, and a soft incarceration approach, found in Denmark, that greatly reduces recitivism. Contrast this with the Neo-Con (Harper&Bush) approach, and the Neo-Lib (Martin&Clinton) approach. The US ignores the leftist perspective, and under Bush, poverty has skyroketed, so has violent crime and incarceration. Canada is following the same path.

You can only defend that path with Neo-Liberal and Neo-Conservative propoganda.

Sun, 2007-06-10 15:30

#89

Fidel

This news article from 2004 says white collar crime then was worth [url=http://osgoode.yorku.ca/media2.nsf/83303ffe5af03ed585256ae6005379c9/0e56...$20 billion dollars[/b][/url] a year in Canada.

In the U.S., white collar crime cost that economy an estimated [url=http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0307-02.htm][b]$338 billion dollars[/b][/url], about a hundred times the value of blue collar street crimes in 1997. Health care fraud perpetrated by shady insurance companies, HMO's and dishonest administrators in general is said to be worth $30 billion alone in America. And Canada's two oldest political parties want to open up health care serivices in Canada to foreign-based health care capitalists.

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:24

#90

Stockholm

If it is "rightwing" to say that people who commit violent crimes ought to be punished, why is it that all these supposedly leftwing countries such as Cuba, China, North Korea, the old Soviet Union etc... all have or had extremely severe penalties for any criminals acts and have prisons that don't exactly have a lot of touchy-feely rehabilitation programs.

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:26

#91

CosmicPositive

There are different forms of crime, and scientific, precise distinctions must be made.

One form of crime is violent crime perpetrated by individuals, usually young adult males, many or most being from impoverished backgrounds.

Fidel speaks of the other more popular, polished and accepted type... that of white collar crime by supposedly respectable businessmen.

This Neo-Con/Neo-Lib dominated North American policial-philosophical paradigm has trumpeted the greatness of folks like Donald Trump. Oh, he's so well groomed, in his dapper suit, he can't possibly be a.... *CRIMINAL*, can he ?

Often, the elite businessmen, the ones corrupted by the Neo-Fascist glorification of extreme and exponential profits, and the governmental power/influence this allows them , sometimes gravitate towards borderline illicit business practices, and sometimes into outright fraud, bribery, theft, extortion, etc.

An example is the reports of pharmaceutical companies bribing and fixing research studies, in oreder to pump the populace full of unnecessary, toxic, pharmaceutical poisons, so that the Pharmaslut CEO (a sort of Neo-Fascist monetary dictator), can add to his measley $500,000,000,000 fortune, in order to aquire yacht # 12, house # 7, and car # 20.

To fight corporate corruption, on this Neo-Fascist North American continent which has been completely dominated and raped by the Neo-Conservative/Neo-Liberal political monopoly, we have to question the notion of exponential profits.

We also have to put people BEFORE profits, on the priority list.

Ultimately, a system of extreme scrutiny, transparency, fines and penalties applied to the greedy violators of economic trust, must be installed and applied.

Put a stop to corporate greed once and for all, and end this era of Trumpian worship.

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:31

#92

Phonz

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]One form of crime is violent crime perpetrated by individuals, usually young adult males, many or most being from impoverished backgrounds.
Fidel speaks of the other more popular, polished and accepted type... that of white collar crime by supposedly respectable businessmen.[/b]

I don't see a relevant distinction here. Those agricultural workers in the lower mainland who were killed recently while being transported to their jobs in an unsafe van were the victims of, I guess, "white collar" crimes, namely negligence and greed. However, the "perps" will be pursued through Workers Compensation, etc. and not the criminal justice system.

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:38

#93

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]If it is "rightwing" to say that people who commit violent crimes ought to be punished, why is it that all these supposedly leftwing countries such as Cuba, China, North Korea, the old Soviet Union etc... all have or had extremely severe penalties for any criminals acts and have prisons that don't exactly have a lot of touchy-feely rehabilitation programs.[/b]

Why go to, and see only the EXTREMES ? Your perspective exludes the center-left soft-spot, indicated by the Danish penal system, which was recently featured on American primetime news, and proven to be far superior in terms of reducing recitivism, with the Bushian model.

L5/L4/L3/L2/L1/C\R1\R2\R3\R4\R5

I'm arguing for the L1 approach, and you can see that it is in the middle between L5 & R5, can't you ?

I will not choose (nor will others) between North Korean L5, and Bushian R4. There is indeed a 3rd alternative, near the middle.

To support the American penal system of hyper-incarceration, or the current Canadian Harperian path which emulates and mimics the Bushian model, is to spout Neo-Liberal and Neo-Conservative propaganda. And you can't ignore the center-left social democratic model by spouting a bunch of distractive, pointless references to manifestations of extremism.

The way to reduce violent crime is to reduce poverty via ample wealth redistribution, and employ the soft incarceration approach found in Denmark, it has been empirically and statistically proven to be far superior to the Canadian, and especially American justice system models.

1) Reduce poverty via wealth redistribution programs.

2) Avoid the Neo-Conservatve/Neo-Liberal hyper-incarcerative crime clampdown, which never addresses root causes.

The Bushian/Harperian approach leads to a cycle of greed, poverty, crime and incarceration, which cyclically exacerbates and repeats indefinitely.

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:46

#94

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Phonz:
[b]
I don't see a relevant distinction here. Those agricultural workers in the lower mainland who were killed recently while being transported to their jobs in an unsafe van were the victims of, I guess, "white collar" crimes, namely negligence and greed. However, the "perps" will be pursued through Workers Compensation, etc. and not the criminal justice system.[/b]

You can't refute general truths with isolated anecdotes which comprise less than .01% of the total criminal acts in 1 year.

It's not either-or, we can clamp down on both, and ALL forms of crime.

The isolated anecdote you refer to could have had it's *probability* of occuring reduced by more laws, and greater enforcement of laws pertaining to labor/hiring standards, transportation standards, and overall scrutiny and transparency.

Accidents happen, bad things happen, criminal acts happen. The reduction in the probabilities of them occuring can be addressed.

Another question, is wheteher or not there was actual premeditated criminal malice involved, or if it was more negligence motivated by greed.

The Nordic-Scandinavian model has much stricter regulations and enforcement of business practices, instituting heavy fines, even shutdowns of businesses which are negligent in the pursuit of greed.

Obviously, there should be a hefty fine imposed , possibly a shutdown of the specific business, and jail time if the lesson isn't learned.

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:48

#95

Stockholm

quote:

1) Reduce poverty via wealth redistribution programs.
2) Avoid the Neo-Conservatve/Neo-Liberal hyper-incarcerative crime clampdown, which never addresses root causes.

I agree and the NDP agrees. But some crimes, such as murder, rape, assault etc... and just about anything involving weapons and violence needs to be punished. We can't just let murderers walk free with no punishment and let them kill more people.

I'm glad that Paul Bernardo is in jail. I don't favour freeing him tomorrow.

Sun, 2007-06-10 16:55

#96

Phonz

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]You can't refute general truths with isolated anecdotes which comprise less than .01% of the total criminal acts in 1 year.[/b]

Not sure what ".01%" refers to here. Corporate greed and negligence bring us all manner of worker injuries and environmental pollution, among other evils.

quote:

[b]It's not either-or, we can clamp down on both, and ALL forms of crime.[/b]

With limited resources, we have to start somewhere. And it seems to me all the usual "Git Tuff on Crime" proposals start in the wrong place.

quote:

[b]The isolated anecdote you refer to could have had it's *probability* of occuring reduced by more laws, and greater enforcement of laws pertaining to labor/hiring standards, transportation standards, and overall scrutiny and transparency.
Accidents happen, bad things happen, criminal acts happen. The reduction in the probabilities of them occuring can be addressed.
Another question, is wheteher or not there was actual premeditated criminal malice involved, or if it was more negligence motivated by greed.[/b]

It seems obvious that it wasn't "criminal malice." However, "negligence motivated by greed" resulted in the same thing: death.

[b]

quote:

... and jail time if the lesson isn't learned.[/b]

But why should a white collar criminal have the benefit of increased WCB premiums, for example, then a series of increasingly harsh sanctions followed by, eventually, jail time "if the lesson isn't learned"? That's not how it is with "blue collar crime" and, as I stated before, I just don't understand the distinction.

I'm lying, I actually do understand it. "White collar" refers to the elite while "blue collar" is the underclass.

Sun, 2007-06-10 17:55

#97

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by remind:
[b]And yes, I would say that to someone who is recovering, and to family members as well.[/b]

Would you tell them that their demand for a sentence longer and more serious than two years less a day to be served at home on a monitoring bracelet is unjust? Those are the kinds of penalties that were handed out to a pair of street racers in Vancouver who killed a pedestrian. Would you be willing to tell Grant de Patie's family and friends that Darnell Pratt is getting the appropriate sentence when he will be out in about a year or two because of a sentence reduction ordered by the BC Court of Appeal? Would you tell them that their are just being emotional in their opposition to the Appeal Court's judgement?

Sun, 2007-06-10 17:59

#98

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]You are spouting Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative propaganda, and providing an anti-left view when it comes to crime.
You don't buy it, the truth, because you have a Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative belief tendency.
Poverty is indeed a risk factor when it comes to crime, all types, as you can see the 25-39% poverty rates in the US correlate with rampant crime, you can see 15-20% poverty rates in Canada correlate with moderate crime rates, and you can see 3-9% poverty rates in Nordic-Scandinavia correlate with low crime rates.
[/b]

You're the ideologue here, not me.

I haven't quoted any particular studies or sources so it's probably unfair to ask this. But you do quote some very specific percentages and I am wondering if you have a source or two for these figures on poverty and crime rates.

Sun, 2007-06-10 18:01

#99

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]If you and others continue to ignore and dismiss the ever-increasing poverty rates under the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib monopoly in North America, you will fail to see the ever-increasing crime rates. Both are facts, and there is indeed an inter-relationship, likely an indirect or even direct correlation.
If you want to reduce crime, especially violent crime, we must emulate the Nordic-Scandinavian model of progressive tax/fines, wealth redistribution, poverty reduction, and a soft incarceration approach, found in Denmark, that greatly reduces recitivism. ... [/b]

I think it's spelled "redivisim". I wonder if this is indicative of the amount of this type of material that you have actually studied?

Sun, 2007-06-10 18:05

#100

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]One form of crime is violent crime perpetrated by individuals, usually young adult males, many or most being from impoverished backgrounds.
[/b]

So, if I am a young man from a poor neighborhood, a broken home, I am really just acting out if I kill or maim someone? I should get a sentence of no more than three years if I am under 18 and prosecuted under the YJA and if I am 19 or early 20s, maybe I should get, ... what? Less than five years for murder? How light do the sentences have to be in order to satisfy your ideological needs?

Sun, 2007-06-10 18:17

#101

Phonz

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]I think it's spelled "redivisim". I wonder if this is indicative of the amount of this type of material that you have actually studied?[/b]

re·cid·i·vism

Hard to spell. Damnably hard to pronounce.

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