NDP Gets Smart on Crime III

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Sun, 2007-06-10 18:33

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]... all have or had extremely severe penalties for any criminals acts and have prisons that don't exactly have a lot of touchy-feely rehabilitation programs.[/b]

[url=http://www.nccd-crc.org/nccd/pubs/2006nov_factsheet_incarceration.pdf]A [b]National Council on Crime and Delinquency[/b] Quick Fact Sheet says [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img] pdf)[/url]

quote:

In the past 30 years,the USA has come to rely on imprisonment as its response to all types of crime. Even minor violations of parole or probation often lead to a return to prison. This has created a prison system of unprecedented size in this country.

• [b]The US incarcerates the largest number of people in the world.[/b]

• The incarceration rate in the US is four times the world average.

• Some individual US states imprison up to [b]six times[/b] as many people as do nations of comparable population.

• The US imprisons the most women in the world.

• Crime rates do not account for incarceration rates.

They are warehousing poor people in for-profit superprisons in the U.S.A, Canada's largest trading partner in crime. Needless to say, warehousing the poor does nothing to prevent several hundred billion dollars being stolen from the economy every year due to white collar crime.

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:09

#103

Stockholm

Why don't you tell us about what happens to people who commit violent crimes in Cuba or North Korea etc... they probably don't show up in incareceration rates since they just get summarily executed with no trial.

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:13

#104

BetterRed

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]Why don't you tell us about what happens to people who commit violent crimes in Cuba or North Korea etc... they probably don't show up in incareceration rates since they just get summarily executed with no trial.[/b]

And your proof that Cuba constantly executes people without trial is where exactly???

Hyperbole and smear do not constitute facts.
Oh yes, and dont lump Cuba and North Korea together. Shows your ignorance.
Thanks

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:15

#105

Stockholm

I'd still like to hear about the wonderfully lenient Cuban approach to violent criminals. I want to hear about the army of psychologists and social workers that counsel them all rather than sending any of them to jail. I want to hear about the absence of any prisons in the Cuban workers paradise!

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:25

#106

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]Why don't you tell us about what happens to people who commit violent crimes in Cuba or North Korea etc... they probably don't show up in incareceration rates since they just get summarily executed with no trial.[/b]

I think after China, which is now a major trading partner, the U.S. executes more of its citizens than any other. Our fascist neighbors, as in right next door to us, even execute the mentally incapacitated.

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:31

#107

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]I'd still like to hear about the wonderfully lenient Cuban approach to violent criminals.[/b]

I want some facts as to who imprisons more people on the island of Cuba. Would it be the Cubans or the secret/illegal gulags for torture at Gitmo?.We'll let Stockholmer find these facts for us, because he seems to be the one driving for the truth.

[Colonel Jessep(Jack Nicholson)]The truth? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HAndle the truth!

PS: Maybe they'll let Stockholmer take pictures at Gitmo and do a head count ?. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:31

#108

BetterRed

No, Fidel, a small besieged Caribbean island must Always be criticized more harshly than the biggest imperialist nation which also happens to be the enforcer of the neo-liberal order.

And surely we must employ our bourgeois standards to analyze a society thats has a different structure.
Move along,

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:36

#109

BetterRed

quote:

I want some facts as to who imprisons more people on the island of Cuba.

Well, according to some 'experts', all the prisoners in Cuba are "political". Even the Tony Montana types
But All the ones in Gitmo, are allegedly dangerous terrorists.

Sun, 2007-06-10 19:56

#110

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by Phonz:
[b]
re·cid·i·vism
Hard to spell. Damnably hard to pronounce.[/b]

Oh shit, this is bad. I must not have had my glasses on! LOL.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:09

#111

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]• [b]The US incarcerates the largest number of people in the world.[/b]
• The incarceration rate in the US is four times the world average.
...
Needless to say, warehousing the poor does nothing to prevent several hundred billion dollars being stolen from the economy every year due to white collar crime.
[/b]

In the report you link to, Canada imprisons at a rate just over 100 per 100,000 population, a bit higher than Germany or France, but a bit lower than in the UK, which is closer to 150. Still all of these are a lot lower than the US at over 700.

Could it be that the US is way too high, and that we are a bit too low? Could it be that successive federal governments here in Canada looked at the high cost of incarceration and decided that, while the public supports stiff sentences for major crimes, they aren't willing to pay the taxes necessary to carry them out and don't want more jails in their areas. So, they produced a set of sentencing guidelines that compel the nation's judges to treat imprisonment as pretty much a last resort and to use it sparingly, perhaps too sparingly?

Could it be that remarkably light sentences, such as two years less a day to be served non-custodially (at home, on a bracelet, watching TV, relaxing) for street racing that caused the death and dismemberment of a woman in South Vancouver, this crime having been committed by a pair of arrogant and totally unremorseful spoiled young men in their early twenties, whose rich parents had provided them with high powered cars, but demanded nothing of them in terms of education or work or community involvement, are the result of overly lenient sentencing guidelines that are not incarcerating people who [b]really need[/b] to be jailed?

Could it be that one can err on both ends, too much jail or too little? Or is that impossible?

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: FraserValleyMan ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:09

#112

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]
I agree and the NDP agrees. But some crimes, such as murder, rape, assault etc... and just about anything involving weapons and violence needs to be punished. We can't just let murderers walk free with no punishment and let them kill more people.
I'm glad that Paul Bernardo is in jail. I don't favour freeing him tomorrow.[/b]

But policy makers are going to have to employ principles, and precise measurement of their applications to society. In *extreme* cases, a life sentence with zero chance of parole is likely most rational and appropriate.

But with a one-time offender, with no previous record, getting into a streetfight while drunk and being charged with assault causing bodily harm (not death), a more lenient and rehabilitative approach (as found in Denmark) is likely more appropriate than hardline hyper-incarceration methods currently being implemented in the US.

Canada can certainly find some rationally measured approaches to crime & punishment that don't employ retributive Republican policy.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:10

#113

Stockholm

Notice that every time anyone asks a question about how violent criminals get treated in Cuba, there is never any answer - just a weak attempt to change the subject to what happens in the US.

I didn't ask about how the criminal justice system in the US treats violent criminals. I want to know how the "workers paradise" of Cuba treats violent criminals.

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:14

#114

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]But with a one-time offender, with no previous record, getting into a streetfight while drunk and being charged with assault causing bodily harm (not death), a more lenient and rehabilitative approach (as found in Denmark) is likely more appropriate than hardline hyper-incarceration methods currently being implemented in the US.
[/b]

What are the results of this hypothetical "streetfight" while drunk? Is some one cut and bruised? Or is someone seriously injured, perhaps irreversibly? What are the other circumstances of this hypothetical "fight", and why is the lack of a previous record important, but not the degree of injury inflicted on the victim?

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:20

#115

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Phonz:
[b]
But why should a white collar criminal have the benefit of increased WCB premiums, for example, then a series of increasingly harsh sanctions followed by, eventually, jail time "if the lesson isn't learned"? That's not how it is with "blue collar crime" and, as I stated before, I just don't understand the distinction.
I'm lying, I actually do understand it. "White collar" refers to the elite while "blue collar" is the underclass.[/b]

1) I'm referring to that one specific case, and
the percentage of total criminal acts it constitutes.

2) We're actually on the same page, just looking at it from slightly different angles, so I have no reason to disagree with your stated view.

Clamp down on crime, in all forms, and in all classifications. Find the root causes as much as we can. Your solutions are as good as mine. It's a very difficult, highly complex and convoluted subject matter. But we must avoid the Neo-Conservative approach to crime because it generally penalizes "distasteful" moral behaviour with an iron whip, while turning a blind eye to corporate greed, exploitation, dishonesty, and negligence in the pursuit of cost cutting and profit building. It also completely dismisses any potential root causes or exacerbating factors of crime rather blindly.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:21

#116

Stockholm

I once visited a maximum security prison in Sweden and met a guy who got into a drunken brawl and slashed a man's throat with a broken beer bottle. The guy died. The perpetrator was serving a very lengthy jail sentence.

Contrary to popular belief, people who commit serious violent offences in the Scandinavian countries do get stiff prison sentences. Sweden and Norway also punish drug possession and trafficking very harshly and drunk drivers in all the Scandinavian countries get jail sentences - even for a first offence.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:23

#117

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
You're the ideologue here, not me.
I haven't quoted any particular studies or sources so it's probably unfair to ask this. But you do quote some very specific percentages and I am wondering if you have a source or two for these figures on poverty and crime rates.[/b]

Actually, it is you who is the *Neo-Liberal* ideologue in a left-wing discussion forum.

It's not my duty to walk you through statistically verified facts, you must educate yourself. But you won't because you have the Neo-Liberal blindfold of oblivion on tightly.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:25

#118

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
I think it's spelled "redivisim". I wonder if this is indicative of the amount of this type of material that you have actually studied?[/b]

That's a rather trite and superficial attempt at a refutation, and it shows your intellectual depth, argumentative impotence, and Neo-Liberal blinders.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:25

#119

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]Notice that every time anyone asks a question about how violent criminals get treated in Cuba, there is never any answer - just a weak attempt to change the subject to what happens in the US.[/b]

If I remember correctly, the U.S. Interests Section in Havana provoked hostilities with a neon sign of "75" indicating the number of political prisoners in Cuban jails. The Cubans responded with billboards across the street depicting Abu Ghraib's electric shock torture victims, and a large fascist swastika. The Americans didn't like it.

Former CIA specialist on Latin America, Philip Agee explains how violent criminals and terrorists are dealt with in Cuba since the spate of Miami-based terrorist attacks in recent years.

[url=http://www.counterpunch.org/agee08092003.html][b]Terrorism and Civil Society[/b] The Instruments of US Policy in Cuba[/url]

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:27

#120

Stockholm

How can it be "neo-liberal" to think that violent criminals who rape or murder should go to jail, when all these "socialist" countries like Cuba, China and North Korea all mete out extremely harsh punishment to violent criminals as well?

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:29

#121

Stockholm

quote:

Former CIA specialist on Latin America, Philip Agee explains how violent criminals and terrorists are dealt with in Cuba since the spate of Miami-based terrorist attacks in recent years.

That article still says nothing about what happens to common criminals in Cuba who murder, rape, assault etc... what hapens to them? Do they ever go to jail?

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:31

#122

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
So, if I am a young man from a poor neighborhood, a broken home, I am really just acting out if I kill or maim someone? I should get a sentence of no more than three years if I am under 18 and prosecuted under the YJA and if I am 19 or early 20s, maybe I should get, ... what? Less than five years for murder? How light do the sentences have to be in order to satisfy your ideological needs?[/b]

That's a purley Neo-Liberal/Neo-Liberal question. You are obviously so inudated with anti-leftist thought, that you are resorting to Neo-Liberal flailing.

You can promote the American judicial system, the Danish one, or the Canadian one, which under Harper, is emulating the American one. It's obvious you have right-wing bias on this issue so go and vote for Harper.

The left will deal reasonable punishment, and simultaneously look at foundational measures in terms of economic and social policy to prevent poverty and violent crime, as the 2 are related.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:35

#123

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Phonz:
[b]
re·cid·i·vism
Hard to spell. Damnably hard to pronounce.[/b]

It's obviously the first spelling error in Babble's history.

Given the ad hominem pile-on due to one minute spelling error, and the complete excusing of trippie's 100 errors per post, there seems to be a bit of disproportionate Right-Wing style justice being delivered by the self-appointed spellcheck cops.

Apparently, the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib ideology has far reaching effects into every possible realm of thought, including ad hominem pixelated nitpicking.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:35

#124

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]That's a purley Neo-Liberal/Neo-Liberal question. You are obviously so inudated with anti-leftist thought, that you are resorting to Neo-Liberal flailing.
You can promote the American judicial system, the Danish one, or the Canadian one, which under Harper, is emulating the American one. It's obvious you have right-wing bias on this issue so go and vote for Harper.
The left will deal reasonable punishment, and simultaneously look at foundational measures in terms of economic and social policy to prevent poverty and violent crime, as the 2 are related.[/b]

What is reasonable punishment? Is it sentences of under two years for murder as happened in BC in the case of a gang of homophobes who brutally murdered Aaron Webster?

Why are you so fascinated with ideological factors to the exclusion of actual cases?

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:38

#125

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
Oh shit, this is bad. I must not have had my glasses on! LOL.[/b]

That's quite the observational admission.

Maybe those Neo-Liberal/Neo-Conservative spectacles should be strap-attached.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:43

#126

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]Notice that every time anyone asks a question about how violent criminals get treated in Cuba, there is never any answer - just a weak attempt to change the subject to what happens in the US.
I didn't ask about how the criminal justice system in the US treats violent criminals. I want to know how the "workers paradise" of Cuba treats violent criminals.
[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ][/b]

Why pursue the L5 vs. R5 debate continuously ? You've realized it's pointless, as Fidel is immersed in his unmovable heartfelt perspective, which is somewhat biased.

OTOH, you could be more productive by criticizing an actually dominant and highly destructive force, the US under Neo-Conservatism, and try to recommend centristic and center-left solutions. Find your preferred middle between the manifestations of extremism, young grasshopper, for there will be the rewards of rational, reasonable realism and humanitarianism.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:44

#127

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]
That article still says nothing about what happens to common criminals in Cuba who murder, rape, assault etc... what hapens to them? Do they ever go to jail?[/b]

I imagine they are free to roam the streets as part of their punishment. What do you think ?.

How about an ounce of concern for the children in adult prison cells in El Salvador ?. Or how about a little curiosity for the feminicide during General Juan Efrain Rios Montt's rein of terror?. The feminicide is still occurring in Guatemala, Stockholmer. Are you curious at all as to why U.S.-backed fascist governments would want to repress women and people in general with that kind of systemic brutality and murder?.

Stockholm, unlike American citizens, you are free to travel to Cuba and ask questions, take tours of the cities and with detailed guided tours of the hospitals, schools, agricultural system etc and get to talking with real live Cubans about anything you want to know about Cuba. They may even ask you to be a liaison or goodwill ambassador promoting their island nation for tourism or as a business contact. As a Canadian citizen and welcome to be a guest in Cuba, I suggest you exercise your personal freedom to travel to Cuba and ask lots of questions and see things for yourself.

[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:45

#128

Phonz

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b] ... Given the ad hominem pile-on due to one minute spelling error[/b]

I was most certainly not part of the pile-on (which had nothing to do with spelling, by the way). And I was sincere. That's a damn hard word to spell/pronounce.

And, truthfully, I don't even know what neo-con or neo-lib means.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:46

#129

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
What are the results of this hypothetical "streetfight" while drunk? Is some one cut and bruised? Or is someone seriously injured, perhaps irreversibly? What are the other circumstances of this hypothetical "fight", and why is the lack of a previous record important, but not the degree of injury inflicted on the victim?[/b]

1) Minor bruises.

2) Degree of immersion in repetitive criminal activity is always important, unless you want to wish that factor away with the Neo-Conservative blindfold of oblivion.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:53

#130

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]I once visited a maximum security prison in Sweden and met a guy who got into a drunken brawl and slashed a man's throat with a broken beer bottle. The guy died. The perpetrator was serving a very lengthy jail sentence.
Contrary to popular belief, people who commit serious violent offences in the Scandinavian countries do get stiff prison sentences. Sweden and Norway also punish drug possession and trafficking very harshly and drunk drivers in all the Scandinavian countries get jail sentences - even for a first offence.[/b]

Just because they deal some harsh appropriate sentences, doesn't mean they employ Neo-Conservative hyper-incarceration, as the statistics indicate. There is a time and a place for harsh sentences. But sentencing a 17 year old to 10 years in adult prison for oral sex with a 15 year old (a well documented US case), isn't likely part of the Scandinavian approach to crime.

But again, you cite 1 personal anecdote, ignoring the massive sum of available statistical data, which would enlighten your Neo-Liberal view if you actually did a US/Canada/Norway/Sweden/Finland/Denmark comparative investigation via numerous sources.

Sun, 2007-06-10 20:59

#131

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
In the report you link to, Canada imprisons at a rate just over 100 per 100,000 population, a bit higher than Germany or France, but a bit lower than in the UK, which is closer to 150. Still all of these are a lot lower than the US at over 700.
Could it be that the US is way too high, and that we are a bit too low? Could it be that successive federal governments here in Canada looked at the high cost of incarceration and decided that, while the public supports stiff sentences for major crimes, they aren't willing to pay the taxes necessary to carry them out and don't want more jails in their areas. So, they produced a set of sentencing guidelines that compel the nation's judges to treat imprisonment as pretty much a last resort and to use it sparingly, perhaps too sparingly?
Could it be that remarkably light sentences, such as two years less a day to be served non-custodially (at home, on a bracelet, watching TV, relaxing) for street racing that caused the death and dismemberment of a woman in South Vancouver, this crime having been committed by a pair of arrogant and totally unremorseful spoiled young men in their early twenties, whose rich parents had provided them with high powered cars, but demanded nothing of them in terms of education or work or community involvement, are the result of overly lenient sentencing guidelines that are not incarcerating people who [b]really need[/b] to be jailed?
Could it be that one can err on both ends, too much jail or too little? Or is that impossible?
[ 10 June 2007: Message edited by: FraserValleyMan ][/b]

Obviously the US incarceration rates are way too high under the Neo-Conservative domestic social policies of Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, Rove, Rumsfeld & Falwell. Canada is following on the same path of hyper-criminalization / hyper-incarceration under Harper, because he loves Bush-Nazi.

The solution is sentencing procedures found in Denmark, and a Nordic-Scandinavian Economic policy of ample wealth distribution and social program spending in order to combat the poverty factor.

If you argue for the Bushian/Harperian model/paradigm, then you are a Neo-Conservative on this issue.

In a left wing discussion forum.

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:05

#132

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]How can it be "neo-liberal" to think that violent criminals who rape or murder should go to jail, when all these "socialist" countries like Cuba, China and North Korea all mete out extremely harsh punishment to violent criminals as well?[/b]

You are spouting unmeasured, inaccurate, obfuscating and elementary superficialitities.

It's a matter of DEGREE of sentencing, for specific cases. And no rational NON-EXTREMIST leftist promotes getting off with no sentence for all crime as you're implying.

Again, the Danish model of criminal justice is superior in terms of recidivism rates, and the Nordic-Scandinavian economic model leads to less poverty and in effect, violent crime.

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:08

#133

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
What is reasonable punishment? Is it sentences of under two years for murder as happened in BC in the case of a gang of homophobes who brutally murdered Aaron Webster?
Why are you so fascinated with ideological factors to the exclusion of actual cases?[/b]

I'm not.

I'm considering principled pragmatism, but since you have the Neo-Conservative blinders on, you are seeing a hyper-simplistic mutually exclusive either-or scenario.

In that case, what is more appropriate in your opinion ? The death penalty ?

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:18

#134

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Phonz:
[b]
I was most certainly not part of the pile-on (which had nothing to do with spelling, by the way). And I was sincere. That's a damn hard word to spell/pronounce.
And, truthfully, I don't even know what neo-con or neo-lib means.[/b]

Well Phonzie, I don't mind the superficial linguistic pile-on. It simply rejuvenates and energizes me.

But let's consider an introduction to the concepts of Neo-Liberalism and Neo-Conservatism.

Often ideologies are absorbed via cultural osmosis, and since in North America we've never had a leftist, or even center-left gov't, many unwittingly buy into Neo-Lib and Neo-Con policies, in Economics, Social (crime and justice) policy and Foreign policy.

There has been complete and utter domination of North American politics by Neo-Lib/Neo-Con political thought.

The American incarceration nation, under Bush, is actually being considered by certain folks around here as a rational alternative. Obviously, those people are being wrong, careless, destructive and irrational.

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=incarceration+nation&meta=]http://ww...

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservative]http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:32

#135

Phonz

As a frequent contributor to wikipedia, I get kind of alarmed to see it quoted.

Anyway, back to our discussion, I gather neocon is supposed to be an insult. Perhaps hypercon would be a better term. Not sure about neolib. Yes, I read the wiki entry and I'm just as unsure as I was before.

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:36

#136

CosmicPositive

It's not my duty to educate you... educate yourself. It's not my fault if you're confused. The wiki is just a starting point, a general summation, a conceptual introduction.

This is a left-wing discussion forum. Those supporting Neo-Lib/Neo-Con views and policies(ala Martin, Harper & Bush), deserve to be insulted and FEEL insulted... by the truth.

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:40

#137

Phonz

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]This is a left-wing discussion forum. Those supporting Neo-Lib/Neo-Con views and policies(ala Martin, Harper & Bush), deserve to be insulted and FEEL insulted... by the truth.[/b]

I guess I'm too tired to follow this. It seemed to me you were insulting babblers who weren't deserving of your wrath. Who exactly in this forum supports Harper and Bush?

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:42

#138

CosmicPositive

The tragic Neo-Conservative Bushian/Harperian model.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

[url=http://mediastudy.com/articles/incarceration.html]http://mediastudy.com/...

[url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/ThrowingAwayKey.html]htt...

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=incarceration+nation&meta=]http://ww...

A viable 3rd alternative...

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=danish+penal+system&meta=]http://www...

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=danish+penal+system+recidivism&meta=...

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:46

#139

CosmicPositive

quote:

Originally posted by Phonz:
[b]
I guess I'm too tired to follow this. It seemed to me you were insulting babblers who weren't deserving of your wrath. Who exactly in this forum supports Harper and Bush?[/b]

Yawn. False assumption by you.

There are 100's of policies contained under the classifications of Economic, Social and Foreign.

After complete domination by the Neo-Con/Neo-Lib agendas on this continent, some North Americans irrationally, unwittingly absorb and promote SOME - not all - SOME of those policies depending on the issue.

In a left wing discussion forum, those right-leaning belief tendencies will be smashed and rejected.... whether the issue is cannabis, prostitution, preemptive war or progressive taxation.

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:52

#140

Phonz

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]False assumption by you.[/b]

Naw, it's the truth. I'm really, really tired and, even if I weren't, I doubt I'd be interested in this conversation.

Sun, 2007-06-10 21:54

#141

CosmicPositive

The tragic Neo-Conservative Bushian/Harperian model.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

[url=http://mediastudy.com/articles/incarceration.html]http://mediastudy.com/...

[url=http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/ThrowingAwayKey.html]htt...

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=incarceration+nation&meta=]http://ww...

A viable 3rd alternative...

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=danish+penal+system&meta=]http://www...

[url=http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=danish+penal+system+recidivism&meta=...

Sun, 2007-06-10 22:27

#142

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]Obviously the US incarceration rates are way too high ... [/b]

It sure looks that way. But are Canada's rates too low, or do they happen to be just exactly right?

Sun, 2007-06-10 22:29

#143

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]In that case, what is more appropriate in your opinion ? The death penalty ?[/b]

I specifically asked whether or not you think that sentences of less that two years, that are served at home on a monitoring bracelet is appropriate for a couple of young adults who killed a pedestrian while street racing.

Sun, 2007-06-10 22:30

#144

FraserValleyMan

quote:

Originally posted by CosmicPositive:
[b]The American incarceration nation, under Bush, is actually being considered by certain folks around here as a rational alternative. [/b]

No. You're just pretending that.

Sun, 2007-06-10 22:46

#145

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
I specifically asked whether or not you think that sentences of less that two years, that are served at home on a monitoring bracelet is appropriate for a couple of young adults who killed a pedestrian while street racing.[/b]

Is this supposed to be an example of the kinds of sentences that demand harsher penalties? If so, I'm not buying it. Incarceration IMV should be about keeping those who are incapable of living among others without harming away from society until they have proven that they have somehow reformed. If there is no evidence of malice then why sentance out of vengence.

Sun, 2007-06-10 23:45

#146

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by FraserValleyMan:
[b]
It sure looks that way. But are Canada's rates too low, [/b]

Apparently Ottawa should open up crime and punishment to U.S. markets. If our ReformaTories implemented a Canadian version of three strikes, we could be warehousing more poor people and reduce Canada's unemployment rate as is done in the U.S. And if we take away voting rights of the incarcerated, the paroled and those on probation, then Canada will be another step closer to North American union and deep disintegration.

[url=http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/01/11/18345676.php][b]American Torture Chambers[/b][/url]

quote:

The recently exposed tortures by American troops at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq were part of a long history of prison brutalities in America’s torture chambers. In fact, among the torturers were prison guards transferred directly from U.S. prisons where similar tortures are inflicted on their captives.

[url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STA203A.html][b]The Caligulian American Justice System[/b][/url] U.N. Intervention is Necessary

quote:

you'd be silly to opine that that $146 billion was a waste of money. Corporations ranging from pharmaceuticals to telecommunications view the American justice system as a productive source of labor and a test bed. Even the Pentagon is a customer. In 2000, UNICOR's slave labor force accounted for net sales to the private and public sectors of roughly $600 million dollars (UNICOR is a subsidiary of the US Department of Justice). The products they produce are as diverse as guided missile components for the Pentagon and clothing for the likes of Eddie Bauer. The electronics guiding the missiles used against American opponents and innocents in Afghanistan and Colombia, and the upscale apparel in the shop window or on your back, could be the product of U.S. slave labor

Mon, 2007-06-11 03:46

#147

Michelle

Okay, CosmicPositive, who is actually Pepper-Pot, is banned too. And since you couldn't respect being given a suspension from babble without coming back under a new account, your ban is now permanent, and any future account you might create for yourself will be banned as soon as you start it.

Mon, 2007-06-11 03:56

#148

Michelle

P.S. Long thread.

Mon, 2007-06-11 03:57

#149

Stargazer

quote:

It seems to me that poverty is a root cause of crimes involving money and property. But when people commit acts of violence it is a different story.

You last line is categorically and empirically false. Perhaps you are thinking of crimes of passion, then I tend to agree. But gun violence (those we are hearing about in the press) are definitely associated and correlated with poverty. So are assualts and other types of 'violent' crimes.

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