Men use swords, women use magic
Sat, 2007-06-23 07:42
#1
Men use swords, women use magic
Sat, 2007-06-23 07:42
#2
I'm referring to portrayals in culture and wondering why and how.
I've been wondering of this cultural facet for a while, does anyone have any historical explanations for it? I'm referring to media and cultural stories from that era or parallel worlds. It's true in video games for example, like the final fantasy series, and a whole lot of japanese cultural exports like sailor moon (video games are also mostly from japan). Men will be portrayed with guns,. swords, big muscles, et cetera. The female characters will cast magic spells.
There's the magical realism of latin american literature. I saw a glimpse of that in an Isabelle Allende novel (she's Salvador's niece). Same story in the little exposure to native north american literature i read. (Louise Erdrich...).
Thn in my favourite novel eries, the Dune series, more of that. The women are the bene gesserit, the fish speakers, and the honored matres... and also the Axlotl tanks. Men are the Sardaukar, the Cymeks, the Fremen.
In Europe, women were the witches, we hear of far more witches than sorcerers in history. In comic books... well, that would take a more exhaustive look. My observation still holds for XMen, I don't know if it holds for many others.
[img]http://www.rpgclassics.com/fanart/FinalFantasy/terra-kitt.jpg[/img]
![http://www.rpgclassics.com/fanart/FinalFantasy/terra-kitt.jpg[/img]](http://www.rpgclassics.com/fanart/FinalFantasy/terra-kitt.jpg[/img]){kind=link}
[img]http://www.finalfantasytr.com/artwork/artworkler/Yoshitaka_A/ff6/artwork...
[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Sat, 2007-06-23 07:43
#3
[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Sat, 2007-06-23 07:55
#4
remind
Perhaps it is because of paternalistic imposing of false history?
Men cannot conceive of women being warriors,and encourage them not to be.
And they burned women at the stake and other such things for being witches in order to oppress women for easy easy control by men. It was not men who they wanted to control.
Sat, 2007-06-23 08:15
#5
Michelle, you'd better move this thread to the FF before too long. Just my instinct talking.
Sat, 2007-06-23 08:45
#6
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Perhaps it is because of paternalistic imposing of false history?Men cannot conceive of women being warriors,and encourage them not to be.
And they burned women at the stake and other such things for being witches in order to oppress women for easy easy control by men. It was not men who they wanted to control.[/b]
It seems very universal though... even in less patriarchal societies like the native americans. I spoke about this to someone else, and her guess is that it's because women were viewed as healers.
Sat, 2007-06-23 11:28
#7
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]I spoke about this to someone else, and her guess is that it's because women were viewed as healers.[/b]
By whom? Where? When?
Sat, 2007-06-23 11:36
#8
remind
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]It seems very universal though... even in less patriarchal societies like the native americans. I spoke about this to someone else, and her guess is that it's because women were viewed as healers.[/b]
So, is patriarchy very universal! [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
And your presumptive broad brushing about FN's in the America's is not correct either!
Sat, 2007-06-23 13:56
#9
If there's one thing I found especially distasteful from the Dune/Legends of Dune Series it was the Axlotl tanks. Just the concept of keeping a woman alive, but brain incapacitated, to serve as a womb for whatever the disgusting Bene Tleilax wanted to grow inside her made me feel positively ill. I know it's fiction, and written for dramatic purposes, but the concept is pure liquid evil.
Sat, 2007-06-23 14:16
#10
remind
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]If there's one thing I found especially distasteful from the Dune/Legends of Dune Series it was the Axlotl tanks. Just the concept of keeping a woman alive, but brain incapacitated, to serve as a womb for whatever the disgusting Bene Tleilax wanted to grow inside her made me feel positively ill. I know it's fiction, and written for dramatic purposes, but the concept is pure liquid evil.[/b]
Excellent point, and one of the reasons why I felt Dune was fiction being used to re-enforce patriarchy.
Sat, 2007-06-23 14:28
#11
Hmm. I'm surprised anyone's mystified about this.
Given that our culture has been patriarchal for as long as history has been recorded, and hence all our cultural icons are filtered through this veil, let's look at the most obvious defining features that separate men from women. Namely, the genitals.
Men have penises, women have vaginas (lord, how I hate that word). From a male perspective, a man is an implement that applies external force, and a woman is a mysterious void that they are irresistibly drawn to and from which life springs forth. In western mythology, in particular, they correspond to the spear and the cauldron, or, in the tarot, the wand and the cup. One is an weapon, the other a magical vessel.
To a man, there's nothing mystical about a penis. Rather it is the archetype of the tool, as fundamental to the principle of exerting your will on the universe as the hand itself. The vagina, however, represents the unknown (how the hell do babies happen anyway?), and is more the archetype of mystery itself. The patriarchal fear and worship of women both stem from this source, the anxiety of things the male can't understand.
I think this view is supported by the recent shift in gender relations. As sexism wanes, we see popular culture changing to embrace the idea of female warriors, who are less "magical" and more in line with the no-nonsense ass-kicker that we have always associated with male roles.
Sat, 2007-06-23 16:35
#12
That's all a bit too Freudian for my taste. But then, I like the word vagina. Vagina vagina vagina.
Can't get enough of it.
Anywho, I think it has more to do with swords being heavy, and spells being rather light.
Men have more testosterone, and therefore build and maintain muscle faster than women. And we're generally bigger. It makes for logical divisions of labour in less technological societies, and in fantasy literature, typically set in less technological societies.
And of course, when we moved away from these less technological societies, and brute strength became less important to our day to day survival, we readily adjusted to the perfectly egalitarian society that we all enjoy today.
Didn't we? Did I miss something?
Sat, 2007-06-23 16:54
#13
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]Anywho, I think it has more to do with swords being heavy, and spells being rather light.And of course, when we moved away from these less technological societies, and brute strength became less important to our day to day survival, we readily adjusted to the perfectly egalitarian society that we all enjoy today.
Didn't we? Did I miss something?[/b]
Oh I wish we had an egalitarian society.
And spells actually use a lot of energy, perhaps more than swinging a sword around. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2007-06-23 20:37
#14
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]If there's one thing I found especially distasteful from the Dune/Legends of Dune Series it was the Axlotl tanks. Just the concept of keeping a woman alive, but brain incapacitated, to serve as a womb for whatever the disgusting Bene Tleilax wanted to grow inside her made me feel positively ill. I know it's fiction, and written for dramatic purposes, but the concept is pure liquid evil.[/b]
I don't think it's distasteful for a work of fiction to have evil characters doing evil things. Your statement is very ridiculous.
Should we no longer have mass murderers in fiction? What about in the lord of the rings, that creature wanted to enslave the world! And in Star Wars, they slaughtered billions on Alderaan.
I think you're feigning disgust.
[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Sat, 2007-06-23 20:46
#15
[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Sat, 2007-06-23 20:48
#16
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Excellent point, and one of the reasons why I felt Dune was fiction being used to re-enforce patriarchy.[/b]
You may be mistaken.
The details Wizard mentioned were not in the originals, which are the ones you've probably read. Unless you picked up those that are new and came out 2, 3 or 4 years ago, you did not read what he was mentioning.
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]So, is patriarchy very universal! [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
And your presumptive broad brushing about FN's in the America's is not correct either![/b]
I think we were taught in school that some of the native north american cultures had mariarchal structures. I made no presumptive broard brush however.
[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Sat, 2007-06-23 21:52
#17
remind
Actually 500 apples, I just read a few of the Dune series about 2 years ago, as a co-worker had a set of them at work, had not read them as a young person, was not into sci-fi fantasy back then.
The concept of matriarchial linage was present in sone of the FN's historically, but not with them all, nor were women in control by either being just Chiefs, healers or medicine women, and you were broadbrushing.
ETA: If you are not in anthropology, a very good fictional series regarding the history and practices of FN's in NA is the People of series...by the Gears. Though not the quality of actual scholarly papers they do give great insight.
[ 23 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]
Mon, 2007-06-25 10:37
#18
[in a Scottish/Dwarven accent]
See that bearded warrior swinging the axe? That's me wife! [/accent]
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
I think it all depends on how the stories are written. I can see how there would be a tendency for smaller people with less testosterone to gravitate towards the magic arts where intellect matters more than brute strength. It's like in the real world where there are more women eager to study in the traditionally male-dominated science and technology fields in university than become firefighters or soldiers (which are male-dominated and don't appear to be changing all that quickly). Some women do have what it takes to get into the latter professions, but there are just fewer of them.
But whether or not the story promotes that depends on how things are portrayed. If a society is rigid and patriarchal then it makes sense not to have any women in the guard. If all societies in that realm are like that and it is romanticized, then yes I can see how that promotes sexism. But if societies vary, the rigid patriarchal ones are portrayed in a less-than-sympathetic light, and SOME women are wielding swords even if they are outnumbered by men then I don't think sexism is necessarily being promoted.
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]If there's one thing I found especially distasteful from the Dune/Legends of Dune Series it was the Axlotl tanks. Just the concept of keeping a woman alive, but brain incapacitated, to serve as a womb for whatever the disgusting Bene Tleilax wanted to grow inside her made me feel positively ill. I know it's fiction, and written for dramatic purposes, but the concept is pure liquid evil.[/b]
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]
Excellent point, and one of the reasons why I felt Dune was fiction being used to re-enforce patriarchy.[/b]
How so? The Tleilaxu struck me as disgusting evil scum, and the way they treated their women was as the Wizard said "pure liquid evil". Seems pretty consistent to me. I think it's a portrayal of evil, not a promotion of it.
Mon, 2007-06-25 13:16
#19
500_Apples:
You think I'm feigning disgust? Let me tell you something. I have a cousin who got sleeping sickness when she was very little. She's been stuck in Valley View Centre in Moose Jaw for 35 Years. She IS brain incapacitated. Since my mom's sister died fifteen years ago, my uncle doesn't even go to visit her anymore. I go, twice a month. And even though I can't prove it, I KNOW she recognizes me. Imagine if your cousin, or mom, or daughter, or sister was brain incapacitated. Would you think that a story about using them for a breeding unit would be just dandy? FUCK YOU, you miserable piece of shit!
And if I get banned for this, SO BE IT!!!
[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ]
Mon, 2007-06-25 14:13
#20
quote:
Excellent point, and one of the reasons why I felt Dune was fiction being used to re-enforce patriarchy.
Yes, but it could be argued that most mainstream fantasty novels reinforce sexist stereotypes. Even George R.R. Martin's fantasy epic, A Song of Ice and Fire, which I consider to be an example of fantasy at it's best, is still a story which is filled with manly men doing manly things.
If you are looking for a fantasy novel with feminist themes try Gate of Darkness Circle of Light by Tanya Huff.
[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Mon, 2007-06-25 14:16
#21
Catchfire
[img]http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0266697/KillBill_CN-99-3.jpg[/img]
![http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0266697/KillBill_CN-99-3.jpg[/img]](https://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0266697/KillBill_CN-99-3.jpg[/img]){kind=link}
Oh. And I think JTT is bang on. It's the phallus, stupid.
Mon, 2007-06-25 14:36
#22
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]500_Apples:You think I'm feigning disgust? Let me tell you something. I have a cousin who got sleeping sickness when she was very little. She's been stuck in Valley View Centre in Moose Jaw for 35 Years. She IS brain incapacitated. Since my mom's sister died fifteen years ago, my uncle doesn't even go to visit her anymore. I go, twice a month. And even though I can't prove it, I KNOW she recognizes me. Imagine if your cousin, or mom, or daughter, or sister was brain incapacitated. Would you think that a story about using them for a breeding unit would be just dandy? FUCK YOU, you miserable piece of shit!
And if I get banned for this, SO BE IT!!!
[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: The Wizard of Socialism ][/b]
Oh, I've read such things in novels which parallel to aspects of my own life or my family.
It's a novel, and sometimes the gloves fit.
So yeah, I do think it's good that novels are not all rose-coloured portrayals of the universe. I have had novels make me sick, one time I fainted on a public metro while reading a very graphic soon, and almost threw up (different novel). I still felt it was good literature.
[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Mon, 2007-06-25 14:44
#23
Of course I'm not going to ban you for that, Wizard - obviously 500_Apples touched a nerve. Word to the wise, Apples - maybe don't call someone's post "ridiculous" or say they're feigning a reaction, especially when it's about a sensitive issue such as, oh, keeping an incapacitated woman alive to be a breeding machine. It's pretty easy to see why that could touch a nerve with a lot of people.
That said, Wiz - I think you already recognize from what you wrote in your post that your outburst is out of line. So I won't go on about it.
Mon, 2007-06-25 15:10
#24
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]
The details Wizard mentioned were not in the originals, which are the ones you've probably read. Unless you picked up those that are new and came out 2, 3 or 4 years ago, you did not read what he was mentioning.[/b]
Just a tiny nit to pick. The Axlotl tanks were first mentioned in Chapterhouse : Dune, which is one of the originals.
I still can't tell if Frank Herbert was seriously sexist, in the vein that Clive Cussler is, or if he was a brilliant social commentator. I really want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it takes a solid analysis to discount the sexism and I can't tell if I have it right.
[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]
Mon, 2007-06-25 19:09
#25
Heywood,
The Axlotlt tanks, as far as I can recall, were mentioned in nearly all the Dune novels. But it was only in the Machine Crusade that there was an explanation of what they were - and that book was not by the original author.
Mon, 2007-06-25 19:10
#26
Scytale was forced to tell the Sisterhood in Chapterhouse (AFAIR)
eta
I'll be glad to be corrected if I'm being a doof.
[ 25 June 2007: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]
Mon, 2007-06-25 19:43
#27
You're right, I'm wrong, according to wikipedia:
quote:
Axolotl tanks are produced by the Bene Tleilax and serve as wombs in which a ghola (a kind of clone) can be grown; in later books, the axolotl tanks have been engineered to be capable of producing the spice melange.In Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune, it is remarked that nobody has ever seen a Tleilaxu female – this is because females in Tleilaxu society are taken and transformed into axolotl tanks through a process of genetic mutation. In essence, the women become huge, immobile wombs, which are then used by the Tleilaxu Masters to grow whatever biological products are required. This process is a deeply-guarded Tleilaxu secret, which is why nobody has ever been able to duplicate their technology.
In Chapterhouse Dune, the last remaining Tleilaxu Master Scytale is coerced into revealing the means of creating the tanks to the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood.
In the Prelude to Dune series of novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, the Tleilaxu invade the planet Ix on the orders of the Padishah Emperor Elrood Corrino IX. The Tleilaxu attempted to create artificial melange (or "Amal"- Arabic for "hope"- as they called it) and the best results were gained by using a Bene Gesserit sister to create the axolotl tank.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axlotl_tank]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ax...
Mon, 2007-06-25 20:59
#28
remind
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
[b]I still can't tell if Frank Herbert was seriously sexist, in the vein that Clive Cussler is, or if he was a brilliant social commentator. I really want to give him the benefit of the doubt but it takes a solid analysis to discount the sexism and I can't tell if I have it right.
[/b]
Uh, it does take solid analysis in any way shape or form. Do you think the age gradient that the series has as a target audience would be into it as a social commentary? It comes acroos as a flat reality and is the ultimate objectification of women being fed to them.
Mon, 2007-06-25 21:31
#29
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Uh, it does take solid analysis in any way shape or form. Do you think the age gradient that the series has as a target audience would be into it as a social commentary? It comes acroos as a flat reality and is the ultimate objectification of women being fed to them.[/b]
At the time, when I was thinking about it, I thought it made a lot of sense that in a vast universe, many of the different planets would run the full spectrum of social government forms. And that explains the matriacrhies such as the Bene Gesserits and the Fish Speakers, or the societies that look more like ours such as the great houses.
Mon, 2007-06-25 21:32
#30
The series doesn't really have a target age gradient per se. It's similar to LOTR. As you age and get more experience and knowledge, you can see deeper into the commentary that Herbert is making.
In the series (original series only), women have serious power, control, and leadership. Consider the Lady Jessica, Chani, Princess Irulan, and Alia of the Knife. These women guide and influence the direction of the old Empire, the Jihad under Paul, and in the case of Alia, ruled the empire as Regent until the twins came of age.
Consider too the new series (albeit not written by Herbert). Serena Butler was the inspiration and the leader of the Butlerian Jihad against the thinking machines. The Spacing Guild was formed by Norma Cenva.
The thing with the Axlotl tanks is that they are portrayed completely repugnantly within the series and serve as a foil to show how bloody awful the Bene Tleilax really are. There is (imo) no way their portrayal can be seen as attractive or appealing in any way.
Tue, 2007-06-26 17:38
#31
TemporalHominid
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Excellent point, and one of the reasons why I felt Dune was fiction being used to re-enforce patriarchy.[/b]
or, it was a philosophical criticism of patriarchy, and by extension violent-patriarchy. But this could be debated to no end.
for context, It was written during the cold war, and it may also have been written as a critisism of the stuggle over Africa and Asia by USA and USSR, and pissing contest in effect at the expense of the 3rd World.
In the series women were also power brokers.
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 21:34
#32
Not Africa and Asia, but the Middle East.
Iraq. Arrakis. He who controls the spice controls the universe. What's so special about the spice? It allows transportation.
Honestly, the whole thing's so obvious it's a little embarrassing.
Wed, 2007-06-27 07:15
#33
TemporalHominid
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
[b]Not Africa and Asia, but the Middle East.... It allows transportation.
Honestly, the whole thing's so obvious it's a little embarrassing.[/b]
I shall check my map forth with
I thought the Middle East was in Asia. Or are we talking about West Virginia, Ohio and Kentucky?
: )
Wed, 2007-06-27 07:35
#34
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
[b]Not Africa and Asia, but the Middle East.Iraq. Arrakis. He who controls the spice controls the universe. What's so special about the spice? It allows transportation.
Honestly, the whole thing's so obvious it's a little embarrassing.[/b]
While there are some very interesting parallels there, the book was written in 1965. That puts it well before oil became the major issue it is today.
There are some other interesting ones. The Emperor Shaddam IV sounds an awful lot like the Dictator Saddam. Two dynastic families in both the series and real life. The events correlate too. In the series, Duke Leto tries to oust the Baron Harkonnen. In real life, Bush Sr tries to oust Saddam. Both fail.
The failures are avenged by sons. Duke Leto's by his son Paul. Bush Sr by his son George Jr. In the series, the two sons of the Baron, Rabban and Feyd-Rautha had senior positions in the Harkonnen hierarchy. In real life, Uday and Qusay Hussein had similar positions in Iraq and were known to be as despotic and hedonistic as the fictional sons. Both were killed in the second war of the desert world.
In the series, Paul's good intentions go awry and he ends up discrediting himself and his revolution to a large degree. How much does that sound like George Jr. and his accomplishments now?
[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]
Wed, 2007-06-27 07:41
#35
TemporalHominid
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
[b]While there are some very interesting parallels there, the book was written in 1965. That puts it well before oil became the major issue it is today.
There are some other interesting ones. The Emperor Shaddam IV sounds an awful lot like the Dictator Saddam. ....
Paul's good intentions go awry and he ends up discrediting himself and his revolution to a large degree. How much does that sound like George Jr. and his accomplishments now?
[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ][/b]
on my word
it's a work of prophesy!
[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Move over L. Ron Hubbard
[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]
Wed, 2007-06-27 07:54
#36
One correction. Rabban was portrayed as violent psychopath who is the older of the two sons and the heir apparent until he angered the Baron. In real life, Uday is the older son, known as a psychopath, and the heir apparent until he angered Saddam.
In the book, Feyd-Raytha is the quieter of the two brothers and is the heir to the Baron. He lived a slightly more normal life but was responsible for the deaths of thousands. In real life, Qusay was the quieter of the two brothers and the heir to Saddam. He headed up the secret service and was responsible for the deaths of thousands.
Two footnotes:
1. In the series, Rabban and Feyd-Rautha are cousins but raised by the Baron as sons.
2. Much of the above info came from the non-original novels written by Frank Herbert's son. The background info could have been created after the real life information available about Saddam and his sons so I'm not sure how prophetic this stuff is.