Rabid Wolverine Chris Benoit found dead
Mon, 2007-06-25 21:10
#1
Rabid Wolverine Chris Benoit found dead
Mon, 2007-06-25 21:10
#2
[url=http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2007/06/25/wwe-benoit-obit.html]along with wife and son[/url] in an apparent murder suicide.
Creepy. Another pro-wrestler meets a weird premature death.
Anything to do with steroids?
Unlike most professional wrestlers, Benoit seemed to take the wrestling part seriously, and demonstrated more athleticism than carnival shtick.
Mon, 2007-06-25 23:24
#3
Scott Piatkowski
I think that, under the circumstances, I'd be more inclined to call the deaths of his wife and son "creepy".
Then again, until today, I had never heard of him (not being snobby... just not interested). Suddenly, there are "tributes" to him springing up on Facebook and elsewhere.
Mon, 2007-06-25 23:38
#4
It just seems so desparately pathetic in its tragedy, doesn't it? No-nonsense, head down, yes sir/no sir guy with the working-class seal of approval from toes to cauliflower ears appears to have done the unthinkable: murder his wife and child.
The WWE did a tribute to him tonight, apparently, and had to do some careful dancing around a story-line around the (fake) death of Vince McMahon - which in a rare display of tact on their part, has been dropped.
There has also been some careful stepping around what it appears to have been a brutal murder, the painfully common "he seemed so quiet and nice" that covers so many sins within the family - the man's man who becomes wildly abusive within the home.
we don't know the story here, if there are drugs or depression or disease or what have you that might have had some impact here. But as it stands, the tribute to Chris Benoit may end up being amongst the saddest commentaries on skewed priorities I've ever seen.
Tue, 2007-06-26 06:25
#5
Oh great, another young wrestler dies, which will only fuel my boyfriend's growing interest in why so many wrestlers die young, which means only one thing to me: a half-hour phone conversation on his theories! Haha, It's going to be a long night!
I must add, that of course this is a tragedy, I shouldn't make light of!
Edited for insensitivity ...
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: jrose ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 07:58
#6
Boom Boom
A friend of mine persuaded me to drive him from Hearst to Toronto to watch Hulk Hogan at the Gardens, around 1992, against Andre the Giant, I think he was. That one match was great, all the other stuff was a drag, I went outside the arena for a beer while it was still going on. Haven't been to a match since. Apparently the Hulk is retired. Growing up in Ottawa I went to a few matches at the Civic Centre - it was fun, although we all knew it was pure hookum. Not much else going on in Ottawa in those days.
Tue, 2007-06-26 08:21
#7
Homlies and tributes to Chris Benoit are at best ill-considered. As it presently stands there are allegations that he murdered his wife and 7 year old son!!
Seems to me that wrestling of old was much healthier than the latest brand of soap opera and steroids.
I rememebr for example Killer Kowalski, Dick "the bulldog" Brower, Antonia Rocca, Edouard Carpentier, Bruno Sammartino, Bobo Brazil, they seemed cleaner (maybe silly) but it was real fun
Tue, 2007-06-26 09:36
#8
Boom Boom
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
I rememebr for example Killer Kowalski, Dick "the bulldog" Brower, Antonia Rocca, Edouard Carpentier, Bruno Sammartino, Bobo Brazil, they seemed cleaner (maybe silly) but it was real fun
Edouard Carpentier was the best - with real talent. Mad Dog Vachon was also quite good. Quebec produced some interesting wrestlers back then, in the 1960s. There was also a football player who turned pro wrestler, don't remember his name, but I think he played for the Alouettes. I think he was undefeated as a wrestler.
Tue, 2007-06-26 09:53
#9
I believe Boom Boom you are referring to Angelo Mosca.
Petsey brings up some great old names. I'm remembering Fritz Von Eric, perpertrator of "the claw" and wonderful bad guy. Lord Athol Layton. (i'm sincerely hoping no connection to jack) My dad took me to Maple Leaf Gardens once where Billy Red Lyons was on the card.
Tue, 2007-06-26 09:54
#10
You may be referring to Angelo Mosca who played with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.
The Vachon family is legendary, Paul "the butcher" Vachon and sister Vivian all great wrestlers along with another quebecer, Gilles "the Fish" Poisson. And lets not forget other great canadian rasslers like Edmontonian Gene Kiniski, Hamiltonians John and Chris Tolos, Torontonian Whipper Billy Watson.
Then we had, Sailol Art Thomas, Nature Boy Buddy Rogers, Tarzan Zora, Hans Schmit, Abdullah the butcher, what others can babblers recall?
Tue, 2007-06-26 09:58
#11
remember "The Beast from Borneo? Like get a bikini wax, man. Then of course there was the complete and utter tastelesness of midget wrestling, with the likes of Little Beaver and Sky lo Lo.
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:20
#12
i do believe three legends have not been mentioned yet....Rowdy Roddy Piper, the frightening Dusty Rhodes, and the other Hart brother not mentioned in the article...Brett "The Hitman" Hart - "The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be!!!!" [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:35
#13
We should be careful not to confuse decades.
Rowdy Robbie Piper, Dusty Rhodes and Brett Hart are from the 1980s. Those I mentioned date back to the 1960s...some like the Vachons endured to the 70s.
Old goat, ya Lord Athol Layton, loved him, couldnt wrestle worth a wit but a great performer..also Dr. Gerry Graham, Sweet Daddy Siki, and into the 70s and 80s, Greg "the hammer" Valentine, Honky Tonk Man, Jesse the Body ventura, Jake the snake, the ultimate warrior, and what of the women of yester year and today??? The Fabulous Moolah, Kate Sweet and Little Princess (she wasnt that little about 5'10 135lbs) and probably the best strangling scissor hold in the business!! ....a tragic event leads to a nostalgia that takes us away on a hot and muggy summer day
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:38
#14
And just what is wrong with the 80's!? I'll have you know that my dad and I used to watch Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, Jake the Snake, etc.
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:40
#15
The Honky Tonk Man was the Greatest Intercontinental Champion of all time! And he also has a tremendous singing voice.
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:41
#16
Nothing at all wrong with the 80s...just different thats all, more flash less wrestling but fun in its own right
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:43
#17
Boom Boom
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
I believe Boom Boom you are referring to Angelo Mosca.[b]Yup! He's the one! He had quite a temper, too.[/b]
Lord Athol Layton.
[b]Another one of the greats from the past.[/b]
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:44
#18
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]The Honky Tonk Man was the Greatest Intercontinental Champion of all time! And he also has a tremendous singing voice.[/b]
And then we had Andy Kaufman (may he rest in peace) the "inter-gender" wrestling champ by his own admission
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:47
#19
Boom Boom
Now that someone mentioned his name, Bret Hart was on that card in Toronto along with Hulk Hogan. Bret Hart was one tough guy. He must be retired by now.
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:47
#20
I know it's politically incorrect - well, okay, let's just call it racist - but it was pretty funny the way the Iron Sheik could rile up the crowds. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] How do you piss off a crowd of 10,000 jingoistic morons? Get together with a Russian guy, cheer Russia and Iran, and then say, "USA?" and then spit on the ground. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Tue, 2007-06-26 10:56
#21
Urgent breaking news, press conference coming up on murder-suicide of benoit family at 3PM EST
edited to add: Terrible, turns out Benoit strangled his wife then asphyxiated his 7 year old son [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 11:27
#22
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
[b]We should be careful not to confuse decades.Rowdy Robbie Piper, Dusty Rhodes and Brett Hart are from the 1980s. Those I mentioned date back to the 1960s...some like the Vachons endured to the 70s...
[/b]
with all due respect Petsy, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roddy_Piper#AWA_.281973-1975.29]the Piper[/url] started wrestling in 1973 and this wiki lists his debut as 1969 and "endured" as you say, to nearly present day. i was born Jan. 9 1970 and can remember him from my earliest recollections, which were likely as soon as i got home from the hospital, knowing my dad! haha.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_Rhodes_%28wrestler%29]The Texas Outlaw[/url], Dusty Rhodes started in the late 60's too, and i had a laugh in this bio with the mention of Terry Funk! Him and his brother were bruisers, and of the same biker/tough guy style when i was a kid, jeans and boots, occasionally busting out "foreign objects" like the taped nail hidden under the trunks, or the dreaded "texas rope match" where the two combatants would be roped together at the wrist with a big rough rope used for all manner of hurt on the other guy!
observation: it is always amusing how much normally pacifistic and kind folks can get lathered up and frothing with excitement at t.v. wrestling. haha. i remember when All-Star Wrestling used to tour B.C. and came to our small town. i was likely 12 and couldn't talk for a couple of days after from shouting!
for your amusement: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_attacks]Professional wrestling attacks[/url]
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 11:39
#23
Yup you are right
Tue, 2007-06-26 12:04
#24
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
[b]Yup you are right[/b]
oh yeah? ya care to back that up Petsy? You wanna dance?!?!?!?
oh, wait....you [i]agreed[/i] with me...ah, fergitit then. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Tue, 2007-06-26 12:20
#25
nostalgia and kidding aside, there seems to be quite a dark side to this story that is[url=http://www.thestar.com/News/article/229549]emerging[/url]. while the antics of the current crop of wrestlers are over the top in the media, whatever platform, is it all just acting? can men playing super aggressive and overtly homophobic and misogynistic characters just turn it off outside the venue?
quote:
...Authorities also said they are investigating whether steroids may have been a factor in the deaths of Benoit, his wife and their 7-year-old son.Steroid abuse has been linked to depression, paranoia, and aggressive behaviour or angry outbursts known as “roid rage.”
“We don’t know yet. That’s one of the things we’ll be looking at,” said Fayette County District Attorney Scott Ballard...
---snip---
Nancy Benoit filed for a divorce in May 2003, saying their three-year union was irrevocably broken and alleging “cruel treatment.”
But she later dropped the complaint, as well as a request for a restraining order in which she charged that Benoit had threatened her and had broken furniture in their home...
it doesnt' say why she dropped the suit but does say in the filing Benoit made $500k a year. was her silence purchased? It is interesting to note her manager name was simply "Woman". as in the context of the genre, would that have been "woman, get me a beer?"
The joke line i used with Petsy was actually used a couple of years ago buy a deluded lad at the local i was having a beer at where a friend having a bad day pissed off pretty much everyone and was tossed out. all the "boys" who hung out there because the owners, much to our dismay, played wrestling at their request on the big screen tv. one of them chased out my friend and squared off with him on the sidewalk shouting "do you wanna dance?" . I intervened and told the guy "nobody here is dancing with you" and my pal was thoroughly perplexed, asking "what on earth is he talking about?". both were quite drunk and harmless in thier own way, but this was a tad surreal. dude went back in all pumped up backslapping his buddies, but stayed away from our table quite obviously.
my point is, while we may have fond recollections of show wrestling from the past, if you watch it now, it is quite violent in imagery, and marketing. Perhaps this Benoit incident may provide the tipping point to have it slide to obsurity and young impressionable boys will grow up without greasy goofs who hate fags and women and like to fight strangers. ah, to dream.
Tue, 2007-06-26 14:02
#26
I'm not sure how many people I know online know this, but I am (and have been for some time) a fan of professional wrestling. You're right to raise the content as a problem - although, if you really want to, you can find wrestling that is much more respectful of its viewers than the WWE is, although this generally means either picking one or two very small and not particularly easy to watch promotions in the States, or watching puroresu (from Japan) or lucha libre (from Mexico).
I think another aspect to this story, and one I hope gets equal coverage, is the horrible labour practices of this fucked up industry of pro wrestling, something that's only become apparent to me over the last few years of my fandom. The WWE (which was Benoit's employer and by far the largest promotion in the world) has fired on air talent while they recouperated from injuries, for being unwilling to work through serious injuries, for trying to form a union, for trying to collect pay promised to them but as yet withheld, for becoming pregnant, and on, and on, and on. Despite the fact that the average wrestler in the WWE would work easily 200 nights a week, arranging their own transportation between shows, only the top stars are guaranteed any time off. (Once, in the late 1980s, the supremely talented Ricky Steamboat was severely punished, in terms of being moved down the card and (later) being given an embarassing gimmick meant to reduce his fan response and thus his ability to make money, for having the temerity to ask for six weeks off when his wife gave birth.) Wrestlers are specifically set up as independent contractors, and not employees, so that the company can avoid covering health costs, providing pensions, and the like. On top of all this, the WWE likes to promote performers with bodybuilder style physiques (or, in the case of the women's division, with body types unattainable except through surgery), and they have a history of releasing or severely underusing and underpaying talented performers (particularly women) because someone else has a better "look". There is a commonly understood pressure for most guys to be on steroids, and a laughable drug testing policy that pretends to care about the health and welfare of the wrestlers while letting them know they can get away with being on the gas indefinitely if they want to.
A combination of working through injuries, excessively hard schedules, and drug abuse has ended the lives of dozens of great wrestlers from the 70s, 80s, and 90s prematurely. I can scarcely count the number of wrestlers I grew up adoring who have died in their 30s, 40s, and early 50s due to the obscene lifestyle success in this industry demands, and that the greedy promoters demand. In the week before this story broke, two performers (one a long time legend on the Calgary scene, the other one of the best managers I've ever seen) died in their 40s in separate incidents, and this was seen in the community of wrestling fans as just another two entries sad but routinely updated list of our childhood heroes who have been worked into an early grave.
I'm not sure if steroid use played a part in Benoit's murders or not, but it might well have. I'm not sure if depression, perhaps brought on by concussions (no wrestler whose worked as long as Benoit had would have gone without at least a couple of concussions, some likely untreated) played a part. And I don't want to mitigate the responsibility one iota of a man I have just found out was a misogynistic, controlling violent ass. But as long as the flashlight is on, we should shine it on all the dirty cockroaches of the wrestling industry. I've already made a choice not to support or watch the WWE anymore - I will get my wrestling fix elsewhere, and I will hold the company I get it from to standards if they want any of my time or money.
Tue, 2007-06-26 14:30
#27
Boom Boom
I just watched this story on CTV NewsNet, and Vince McMahon did some kind of a tribute to Benoit last night - CTV just showed about 30 seconds of it. I then did a google on McMahon - chairman/owner of the WWF - and his net worth is estimated between $700 million and $1.1 billion. It's apparently a very lucrative business.
Tue, 2007-06-26 15:07
#28
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
[b]I just watched this story...and Vince McMahon did some kind of a tribute to Benoit last night [/b]
Yes, wonderful, some kind of tribute eh? What a fucking hero!
He had bound her wrists and ankles before her strangled her, and smothered their son. There was a "Bible" found next to their bodies.
Excuse me, but excusing it as possible steriod use, frivoulously making fun of wrestlers and the WWE making a tribute for this man is beyond belief.
A woman and child were violently murdered in another senseless act of violence, by someone who had at one time professed to love them.
This thread obviously needs to be moved to the feminist forum.
Tue, 2007-06-26 15:18
#29
Yeah, most of us did do the thread drift thing in this one and got talking about other wrestlers, etc.
Time to get back on topic. And yeah, I'll move this to the feminism forum.
Tue, 2007-06-26 15:51
#30
I am actually inclined to defend the decision to do a tribute show, given the timeline as I understand it of what was known on Monday night and when it was known. They would have only had a couple of hours to make up their minds what to do with that time slot, which is normally a live show, and at the time the show began (and, IIRC, pretty much until it was over) it had not yet come out that this was a murder, it was only known that the family was all dead. I think, given the circumstances and the amount of time that was avialable to make decisions, the show was handled appropriately. It's also worth noting that the show is normally repeated on Tuesday afternoons, but was not in this case.
Tue, 2007-06-26 15:57
#31
Which is a surprising thing for vince "make a buck anyway you can" would do.
I often wonder when I read about these tragedies of someone killing a lover and themselves or their kids; what brings someone to that. What goes on in their mind so that killing a loved one, a child and themselves seems like a reasonable act?
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:04
#32
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
[b]I often wonder when I read about these tragedies of someone killing a lover and themselves or their kids; what brings someone to that. What goes on in their mind so that killing a loved one, a child and themselves seems like a reasonable act?[/b]
Utter fucking arrogance combined with narcissism that was created by a patriarchial society.
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:05
#33
remind
Thanks Michelle!
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:05
#34
Hmm I doubt that in every case like women who kill their kids or the other latest murder suicide where a cop killed her lover then herself.
I would think arrogance and narcissism would create a opposite effect, where the individual would hurt and create hardship for others but never do anything to hurt themselves, assuming it will work out for them
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: Bacchus ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:16
#35
quote:
Time to get back on topic. And yeah, I'll move this to the feminism forum.
Thanks. I wasn't sure exactly where to put it at first. The domestic violence angle, although suspected, hadn't been confirmed when I posted.
It is rather surreal here in Edmonton, where Benoit was considered the hometown boy. The fact that he turned out to be another abusive murderer is causing some dissonance around town. How can you pay tribute to a guy who methodically plotted the murder of his family?
McMahon's brand of wrestling is built around misogyny. Anytime a woman appears, it is around the context of hypermasculine violence.
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:21
#36
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
[b]Hmm I doubt that in every case like women who kill their kids or the other latest murder suicide where a cop killed her lover then herself.I would think arrogance and narcissism would create a opposite effect, where the individual would hurt and create hardship for others but never do anything to hurt themselves, assuming it will work out for them[/b]
Oh yes, let's bring ancedotal evidence in, that because women sometimes kill their kids or partner, it can't possibly reasons of male dominance and supremacy at work, when a testosterone driven minor celebrity that makes money off of violence against others.
That he bound her, shows it was an issue of dominance, not dispair. He may have been depressed, but he certainly was not going to let his child and wife go one and enjoy life without him. They had to go along for his ride into death, if he was going to.
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:29
#37
quote:
ESPN.com is reporting that District Attorney Scott Ballard said Daniel (who was seven years old), had needle marks on his arm. He believed that the boy had been given growth hormones for some time because the family considered him undersized.
From [url=http://www.wrestlinginc.com/v2/wi/stc/top/2007/6/43.shtml]Here[/url]
Hello, first post. Glad to see this was brought to the feminism forum.
Basically I somehow feel that the hyper-masculine archetype will eventually bring us back to the dark ages; when it did indeed rule the word.
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:33
#38
quote:
Oh yes, let's bring ancedotal evidence in, that because women sometimes kill their kids or partner, it can't possibly reasons of male dominance and supremacy at work, when a testosterone driven minor celebrity that makes money off of violence against others.
Didnt say it could not be true in this case, just that it would not account for all cases, your pithy one line dismissal of things notwithstanding
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:45
#39
Welcome, anchovy breather. That's quite the alias! [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Bacchus, I think she was referring to this case when answering your rhetorical question. Also, in cases where women kill their kids, I think in a lot of cases it's also something about the patriarchal society we're living in. Women who kill their kids because [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith]they think their boyfriends won't want kids[/url], women who kill their kids because [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates]they're suffering from post-partum depression[/url] and their asshole husbands still expect them to be wifey-for-Jesus...
Patriarchal society isn't just about direct abuse from men to women. It's about expectations of women from society, the way women are raised within this society, etc. It's all-pervasive.
Tue, 2007-06-26 16:55
#40
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
[b]Didnt say it could not be true in this case, just that it would not account for all cases, your pithy one line dismissal of things notwithstanding[/b]
We were not talking about every other case we were talking about THIS case!
And how in the hell was I dismissing anything, and fuck I am glad to see the great sensitivity of people when discussing violence against women. And that again women are forced to defend themselves here.
Actions like this affect ALL women! That someone who has professed to love someone, and who should love their child could do this to them, hits pretty fucking close to home! It could be anyone of us women who are the focus of the next fucking insensitive discussion.
Tue, 2007-06-26 19:04
#41
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Actions like this affect ALL women! That someone who has professed to love someone, and who should love their child could do this to them, hits pretty fucking close to home! It could be anyone of us women who are the focus of the next fucking insensitive discussion.[/b]
Sad but TRUE!! [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img] . I think the things about hate crimes and violence against women, that is often missed is the effect it has on the target group.
The terror of knowing that your loved one could do this to you, is unmeasurable.
Please my bro's, think before you speak, and if you were blinded by your upbringing, and are now aware of the insensitivity of your words or actions, please apologies and acknowledge the error of your ways (to other guys as well ). It's not enough to just say to yourself that you shall do better next time.
Tue, 2007-06-26 19:09
#42
[url=http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_12288.aspx]Less famous but no less tragic,[/url]
Tue, 2007-06-26 19:58
#43
quote:
Originally posted by John_D:
[b]I'm not sure how many people I know online know this, but I am (and have been for some time) a fan of professional wrestling. You're right to raise the content as a problem......I think another aspect to this story, and one I hope gets equal coverage, is the horrible labour practices of this fucked up industry of pro wrestling...[/b]
solid post brother John. i too grew up a huge fan of pro wrestling, as can be seen from my posts above, responding to Petsy. I can no longer stomach most of it, but have friends/acquaintainces that are "amateur" pro-wrestlers of various styles, genders and sexual orientations, and have a blast and are not fools or demeaning or exploitative. thank you for the insight to the labour practices in this industry.
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]Yes, wonderful, some kind of tribute eh? What a fucking hero!
He had bound her wrists and ankles before her strangled her, and smothered their son. There was a "Bible" found next to their bodies.
Excuse me, but excusing it as possible steriod use, frivoulously making fun of wrestlers and the WWE making a tribute for this man is beyond belief.
A woman and child were violently murdered in another senseless act of violence, by someone who had at one time professed to love them.
This thread obviously needs to be moved to the feminist forum.[/b]
remind, your anger is palpable and appropriate, but before you beat up on anyone that was posting here before you started with this one and before we knew the further details, re-read my post two up from yours where i link the new facts to get back on topic and then discuss the misgogyny inherent in the sport. no one is having a laugh about this at all. it's not funny when anyone dies, particularly in this case.
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Yeah, most of us did do the thread drift thing in this one and got talking about other wrestlers, etc.Time to get back on topic. And yeah, I'll move this to the feminism forum.[/b]
already done. perhaps now this is in the feminist forum, could there be some commentary on the questions i asked relating to violent pro sports and can athletes just turn that off when thyey go home, and the interesting information john_d posted related to the labour practices and how they affect the women in the industry?
both of our posts appear to have been ignored.
Tue, 2007-06-26 20:04
#44
Michelle,
Care to explain why you moved this to the feminism collum? Seems to me that the case is still under investigation. Are we to automatically blame men? Comes across as somewhat sexist in my view. It is not an issue that lends itself to be resolved by one sided analises.
Tue, 2007-06-26 20:38
#45
remind
quote:
Originally posted by farnival:
[b]already done. perhaps now this is in the feminist forum, could there be some commentary on the questions i asked relating to violent pro sports and can athletes just turn that off when thyey go home, and the interesting information john_d posted related to the labour practices and how they affect the women in the industry?both of our posts appear to have been ignored.[/b]
Frankly farnival, it is just not about women in the industry that John mentioned, it was primarily how the [b]men[/b] were treated. As far as I am concerned, they, be it the males or females, involved can walk away if they don't like it. It is greed and the drive to be famous motivating them quite obviously, or they would not be tolerating it.
WWE would soon go away if no one wrestled for them, eh?! Even faster if everyone viewing it boycotted them. How progressives can even watch that violent misogynistic crap is beyond me.
Moreover, as far as I am concerned, this is NOT about wrestling and the other wrestlers, nor the poor labour practices this is about a woman being bound and murdered, and the child being smothered, by someone whom they should have been able to trust.
As for those who participate in violent sports not being able to leave it at work, I would say they are there because they are violent. Moreover, there are plently of other male athletes in sports, which are not violent, who have beaten and killed their wives, or girlfriends.
This incident like those others, is about power and control by men of women in the patriarchial world that we live in.
If you want to discuss poor labour practices in the WWE start another thread about that please.
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 20:45
#46
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]...If you want to discuss poor labour practices in the WWE start a thread about that pleasse.[/b]
frankly remind, this was already in another thread that could have discussed the poor labour practices as they affected the men and women involved, as well as the issue of violent sports, and the issue of a man murdering his wife and child as related to those two issues as was initially being discussed. And this discussion was moved at your urging to the feminist thread, where now at your diktat, these things can no longer be discussed apparently and has now, because of you getting angry at the other aspects of this issue has been derailed/ended.
Too bad. Perhaps Michelle could move this back to the original place and you, remind, could start a new thread discussing the specifically feminist angles/implications of this issue, allowing for the original discussion to continue without you slagging the rest of us, or more specifically, me.
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]
Tue, 2007-06-26 20:47
#47
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Bubbles:
[b]Michelle,Care to explain why you moved this to the feminism collum? Seems to me that the case is still under investigation. Are we to automatically blame men? Comes across as somewhat sexist in my view. It is not an issue that lends itself to be resolved by one sided analises.[/b]
She moved it because she was asked to.
The case is still be investigated but it has been investigated far enough for the police to STATE PUBLICALLY, it was a murders suicide situation.
What kind of other side analysis do you want bubbles? By asking the question about automatically blaming the man, surely you are not suggesting that she brought this on herself? Cause it sure sounds like it!
It is here in the feminist forum for a reason. And your comments come as sexist frankly! And again women are having to defend actions and statements.
[ 26 June 2007: Message edited by: remind ]
Wed, 2007-06-27 06:44
#48
I moved the thread because it's about violence against women.
There's nothing wrong with what farnival posted - it's well within the bounds of discussion in the feminism forum, particularly the part about how the violence of pro-wrestling reinforces patriarchy. remind, I understand you're passionate about this subject, but you really need to leave the moderating to the moderators, and not fly off the handle at every perceived slight. People can talk about different aspects of this case than you, as long as it does not silence the feminists in the discussion.
Bubbles, buzz off. Stay out of this forum. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about feminism and violence against women and I'm not dealing with it here.
Wed, 2007-06-27 06:50
#49
Polly B
quote:
Originally posted by farnival:
frankly remind, this was already in another thread that could have discussed the poor labour practices as they affected the men and women involved...
I agree with farnival. The point of the OP here was to look at the creepy premature death of yet another wrestler and the possibility of steroids playing a part. I don't think it's fair to silence the posters here and change the substance of this thread by moving it, when a new thread discussing this tragedy from a feminist POV could just have easily been created in the FF.
oops crossposted with michelle
[ 27 June 2007: Message edited by: Polly Brandybuck ]
Wed, 2007-06-27 07:26
#50
thanks michelle and polly. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] i have been giving this subject alot of thought, driven by remind's passion on the subject of violence against women, and i think this is a vital aspect of this discussion and i am pleased in some aspects that this has been moved here to the feminist forum, but think it might possibly sideline some of the issues myself and john_d, and now michael have brought up from a male perspective. i think i will start a new thread with a slightly different angle, as i think that while this subject was brought to the fore by the wrestler's murder/suicide, there is a bigger picture that i'd like to hear from other babblers on, when i can articulate it properly, so this thread continues to discuss the violence against women so dissapointingly and disgustingly prevalent in our society.
everyone might be interested in Antonia Zerbisias' column today in the Star: [url=http://www.thestar.com/living/article/229688]Experts say they're preventable, yet 'femicides' continue[/url]
Wed, 2007-06-27 08:43
#51
quote:
Also, in cases where women kill their kids, I think in a lot of cases it's also something about the patriarchal society we're living in. Women who kill their kids because they think their boyfriends won't want kids, women who kill their kids because they're suffering from post-partum depression and their asshole husbands still expect them to be wifey-for-Jesus...
Uh-huh. Normally, I agree with most of your posts Michelle, and I appreciate the work you do as a moderator. But this sounds like a big guilty liberal apologist weep-fest.
SO the women who kill their kids aren't to blame. They are just "victims of patriarchy." Yet when working class men pull this, well they're the "oppressors."
Sorry folks. I know this is the feminism forum. But this reasoning in any environment is just cattle compost, as far as I'm concerned.
I well know that social and economic factors play key roles in shaping behaviour, including the negative stuff. But that alone does not make violent or dishonest behaviour by people against one another condonable.
For example, this so-called "patriarchy" also appears to set often unreasonable standards and expectations on men--like having to always be the main provider and protector for the family. And when they lose their job or get injured and become disabled and can't do that anymore, they are often seen as unproductive burdens, unfortunate losers and has-beens.
I have read that this can lead to brutal violence and/or suicidal behaviour by men against their families or associates. does that make it acceptable? No, it does not, and neither should it be in the case of women who turn violent against their families.
Benoit is certainly a tragic figure now, because of what happened. But in no way do I see him as a hero.
Contrary what some others say here, [url=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061107082815.htm]Steroid use, especially in men,[/url] can lead to increased violent tendencies and anti-social behaviour—and steroids were found at the Benoit residence, indicating that they could have played a role.
Like others here, I was a pro-wrestling fan as a kid in the 60’s, when the little folks still thought it was real combat, and into the 70s, even after we knew it was stunts and tricks but still fun to watch—in the days of Gene Kiniski, Bulldog Brown, Don Leo Jonathan, Mr.X/Guy Mitchell, Dutch Savage, etc.
Back then, steroid use was uncommon. Even into the early 80s, with Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Nicolai Volkov, George The Animal Steel, etc., it was still not a big practice.
Now it’s everywhere, and it seems, despite new rules, education programs and testing, far too many athletes—from Olympic sprinters to pro hockey players—seem to feel compelled to use them.
But I don’t think Benoit was ignorant to the dangerous side effects of steroids. His using them was a clear act of irresponsibility, since they likely did play a role in the murder-suicide. That makes him totally culpable and certainly no roll model, as far as I’m concerned.