"Girl-watching"
Thu, 2007-06-28 04:14
#1
"Girl-watching"
Thu, 2007-06-28 04:14
#2
[url=http://www.thestar.com/living/article/230064]When does looking become a leer?[/url]
I hate it when they call it "girl-watching" - I mean, hell, we're not "girls".
quote:
Emily May, 26, and her friends were "all reporting three to five incidents of street harassment every day on average ... an epidemic."Everywhere you go, you hear comments (from men)," she says. "It speaks to the power dynamics between men and women."
May says 13- to 15-year-olds, especially, are "dumbfounded by the idea that all of a sudden they're being sexualized on the street."
Nor does it seem to matter whether it's winter and women are bundled up, or summer when they're more exposed, she says.
Besides, she insists, "women should be able to wear their underwear walking down the street and not be made uncomfortable."
But, she adds, "we're not saying men shouldn't be allowed to look at women in the street. If it's really appreciation, it should be done respectfully. And if the women enjoy it, they enjoy it."
Cerbu says she doesn't notice whether men are looking at her. . "I'm not looking for attention and I don't pay attention – as long as he doesn't make comments."
And what is construction worker Pansino's view? "I think a lot of women think we're pigs if we look at them but, to me, I think they should take it as a compliment," he says. "Women look at men just as much as we look at them but they don't admit it."
Are construction workers unfairly maligned for ogling? "Construction workers do get a bad name for this – rightfully, in some cases."
And then, he has a question: "Is she single?"
My view on it is this: I don't think looking at a woman without comment - even if the look is a stare, even if the stare is creepy - is sexual harrassment. I have the right to stare at anything and anyone I want to stare at, and so does everyone else.
Of course, I also have the right to consider people who stare to be extremely rude. Everyone has been taught from childhood not to stare at people, but a lot of men seem to think that they're exempted from this basic rule of courtesy if a woman they consider to be good-looking is within their vicinity.
I like the attitude of the woman interviewed in the quote above - if the guy is silent and doesn't attempt to approach her or say anything to her, they can look all they like. It's when they start making comments or whistles that they go from onlooker to pig.
Thu, 2007-06-28 05:13
#3
It persists because every so often a guy someone knows manages to "pick up" a woman from the street. I can think of three cases.
But we didn't use rude catcalls.
Thu, 2007-06-28 05:34
#4
They're building condos at the end of my street. Usually, when I walk up the street I get some sort of irritating comment, or whistle from the construction workers. I've had men pull their cars up beside me, grab me at bars. This daily sexual harrassment does exist, and it can be constant for many young women.
Excuse my language, but my boyfriend actually turned to me one day, when we were walking hand-in-hand (I mean the nerve of some guys to do it, while a woman is walking with their partner) and said to me "How does it feel to be eye-fucked like that all the time?" and he wasn't saying it jokingly, he was legitimately concerned. We talked about it for awhile, and he echoed my feelings that it is a form of sexual harrassment, and it can shake your self-worth sometimes, making you feel like mere eye-candy.
I wonder, how do other women on babble handle such things? A dirty look? Ignore it? Has anyone ever actually said anything?
This is the [url=http://www.hollabackcanada.blogspot.com/]link[/url] that is mentioned in the article above, posted by Michelle.
Thu, 2007-06-28 05:55
#5
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]I've had men ... grab me at bars. [/b]
I've never done that, never would, but it happens because a lot of women go for that, in bars that is. The rationale is that getting rejected two or even maybe three times is ok if you get a chance with someone else.
As for the stopping with a car, that's very different. I've never heard of anyone doing that, that's pretty frightening. Another factor is self-reinforcing machismo. A lot of it would go away if those men had mroe female friends. A lot of people don't have friends of the opposite sex and I don't know why that is.
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Thu, 2007-06-28 06:03
#6
I think you're dead-on with that. I'm a female, who has a majority of male friends. (Which I think is a whole other babble topic, about whether cross-gendered friendships are possible, and I'm a strong believer that they are!) and because of that, I have an understanding of how I expect to be treated by a man.
I'm also lucky to have these friends who acknowledge situations when I'm out with them, for example, I've gone up to the bar to settle a tab, and had unwanted advances, and my guy friends know just when to step in and make sure I'm okay. Not that I can't handle the situation myself, but it's nice to have a watch-dog from time to time.
Thu, 2007-06-28 06:09
#7
500 Apples has a point. For some kinds of behaviours, like grabbing in bars and stuff, guys do it because sometimes it works. Often it doesn't and I think most women don't like it, but it works often enough that guys will take their odds.
And that really sucks. Quite frankly, I think that's assault, when a guy grabs a woman. I think if more of us kicked guys in the nuts (I'm not going to say report it because I don't think it's taken seriously and then you get into the whole "can you prove it in court" thing) when they grab us - right then and there - then there might be less incentive for guys to do so.
Maybe that's what feminists need to work on instead of reporting nasty shit. Getting women together to back each other up when we fight back PHYSICALLY against shit like this. If there were a bar culture where women would stand shoulder-to-shoulder when a guy gets kneed in the balls for sexually assaulting women, then perhaps guys would learn what they can expect from 3 out of 4 women at a bar, and suddenly those odds of one out of ten women responding favourably to such come-ons would not look like such good odds after all.
Thu, 2007-06-28 06:26
#8
quote:
500 Apples has a point. For some kinds of behaviours, like grabbing in bars and stuff, guys do it because sometimes it works. Often it doesn't and I think most women don't like it, but it works often enough that guys will take their odds.
That's unimaginable to me, but you're right, I'm sure it's true. I guess there is a whole subsection of men and women, who go to bars just for this purpose. To oggle scantily-clad ladies, and to hopefully have someone to come home with at the end of the night.
Thu, 2007-06-28 07:45
#9
I read this article and asked myself "Why the hell do we need to explain this again?"
But I think you've hit on the main issue here, Men are allowed to look at WOMEN (I agree the 'girls' tag is a little condecending), but we are not allowed to touch without concent, that would be assault.
However, where that 'concent' comes from in a bar situation is very differnt from being out on the streets. I've been out at a bar and some slimey jackass put his arm around and started grinding my girlfriend (with me standing no further than 2 feet away from her), I'm a non-violent person so he didn't 'get his ass kicked' but he certainly got an earful from me and a number of threatening looks from the rest of our friends. It was completely inappropriate in a club, but if someone has tried that out on the street I would be considering charging the guy. Not sure why the double standard is there in my head, but it's there...
Honestly, I think men should just be forced back to our best collectvie move. The drive by Honk. Nothing is guaranteed to get a woman hot for you like honking at her as you speed by.
Thu, 2007-06-28 07:47
#10
I don't mean to make light of this subject, but I couldn't help but be reminded of a bit by comedian David Cross.
He was describing how once in New York he saw a sanitation worker hanging out of the door on his garbage truck making comments to a beautiful women walking down the street. He was amazed that this guy would bother harrassing this woman, while riding in a garbage truck. But the guy said,
"I'll talk to 100 women. Cause hey, maybe that 99th girl likes to fuck on a pile of trash."
Thu, 2007-06-28 07:52
#11
quote:
Honestly, I think men should just be forced back to our best collectvie move. The drive by Honk. Nothing is guaranteed to get a woman hot for you like honking at her as you speed by.
Jerry Seinfeld made a joke regarding exactly this, and I remember laughing so much when I heard it years ago, but I can't seem to track it down anywhere online!
Thu, 2007-06-28 07:59
#12
quote:
Honestly, I think men should just be forced back to our best collectvie move. The drive by Honk. Nothing is guaranteed to get a woman hot for you like honking at her as you speed by.
But couldn't The Drive By Honk be considered exceptionally rude as well?
Thu, 2007-06-28 08:06
#13
quote:
Jerry Seinfeld made a joke regarding exactly this, and I remember laughing so much when I heard it years ago, but I can't seem to track it down anywhere online!
I think the joke was about how stupid men are about trying to pick up women. And he used honking as an example. Honking is the best we've been able to come up with so far.
Thu, 2007-06-28 08:10
#14
Yea...that was it! Something along those lines, asking what men actually think will be the outcome of honking, do they actually think a woman would be flattered enough to run after the car, and latch on...!
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:00
#15
Three things:
1) Did anyone see a news story or a stand-up photo in a newspaper a while ago that featured women (I believe in either India or Pakistan) mobilizing to stare back at men who leered? I thought it was a neat idea.
2) Not being a woman (or a man that gets many second looks for that matter), I haven't noticed how widespread this sort of thing is in Canada. I do recall being shocked at the extent I noticed it in some European countries (particularly Greece). Men sat on patios, turned their chairs to the sidewalk and just watched. It was uncomfortable even for me.
3) I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but some people may accuse me of leering or staring at women (or men) if they have something on their shirt. If I see a slogan or a button, or even a cool design, I stare to try to read it. Unfortunately, particularly if the item is on a woman, I feel awkward about staring at their chests. It's not like I can say 'please don't think I'm staring at your breasts, I'm just trying to read your shirt.' Or maybe I can, I don't know. Do people consider this girl-watching or just 'people-watching'?
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:07
#16
As for girls on the street I think it's totally fine to appreciate the female form from afar (aka none of that leering calling out to girl kinda stuff). I am sure females appreciate the male form as well when one presents itself.
Although I have noticed that even if I a guy was ogling a girl, she is offended or not offended depending on if that girl is attracted to that guy or not
As for the club that's a whole different beast. Girls have grabbed my ass and I have been fine with it. I'm not condoning the opposite but I think in club you just have to use good judgement with each individual you meet.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:21
#17
quote:
3) I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but some people may accuse me of leering or staring at women (or men) if they have something on their shirt. If I see a slogan or a button, or even a cool design, I stare to try to read it. Unfortunately, particularly if the item is on a woman, I feel awkward about staring at their chests. It's not like I can say 'please don't think I'm staring at your breasts, I'm just trying to read your shirt.' Or maybe I can, I don't know. Do people consider this girl-watching or just 'people-watching'?
My boyfriend bought me the CBC shirt, with David Suzuki's head across the chest. He regretted that decision immediately, saying that he had just basically given others permission to take a look, haha!
As far as I see it, looking is fine! Checking out what someone is wearing, or what is on their shirt, isn't offensive to a woman. I think what this article is talking about is the crude, over-the-top, sexualization that many women feel when walking down the street because of extended, drooling, looks from wayward eyes. A quick glance, even a glance of appreciation, isn't necessarily a bad thing, but all too often it goes beyond this and becomes an insulting leer.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:29
#18
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
I've had men ... grab me at bars.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I've never done that, never would, but it happens because a lot of women go for that, in bars that is. The rationale is that getting rejected two or even maybe three times is ok if you get a chance with someone else.
Is that actually true?? Like there are places where there is a reasonable likelyhood that some women will go for that??? [img]eek.gif" border="0[/img]
I completely agree that more men should have women who are just friends. I wonder what prevents that.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:38
#19
Women look. They do it in a less obvious way. Girls and "mature women" can be some of the worst offenders. It's human.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:38
#20
Polly B
bullshit.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:38
#21
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]
As far as I see it, looking is fine! Checking out what someone is wearing, or what is on their shirt, isn't offensive to a woman. I think what this article is talking about is the crude, over-the-top, sexualization that many women feel when walking down the street because of extended, drooling, looks from wayward eyes. A quick glance, even a glance of appreciation, isn't necessarily a bad thing, but all too often it goes beyond this and becomes an insulting leer.[/b]
I bet if Brad Pitt was the one doing the crude, over-the-top, sexualization staring the ladies wouldn't mind (Or atleast the vast majority of them). Which leads me to believe that it's not the staring but the fact that a particular girl might not think a certain guy it worthy enough to stare.
Just throwing a thought out there
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:40
#22
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]They do it in a less obvious way. [/b]
It's always obvious, no matter who does it to whom.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:48
#23
quote:
I bet if Brad Pitt was the one doing the crude, over-the-top, sexualization staring the ladies wouldn't mind (Or atleast the vast majority of them). Which leads me to believe that it's not the staring but the fact that a particular girl might not think a certain guy it worthy enough to stare.
I do understand your argument, to a certain point. It bothers me more when older men eye-grope me, rather then young men, which I guess could feed into that. But I think that's because I see men close to my own age, as my peers.
If Brad Pitt looked at me in a crude and degrating way, he would get the EXACT same dirty look from me as any other man would, I gaurentee it. Depending on what we're talking about here, but if it's a crude comment, a lustful look, or anything else that I would find uncomfortable, I don't think it's excusable from ANYONE. So I agree with Polly, that's bullshit. Any guy that thinks any of those things will do the trick better than a smile, and a nice hello, isn't worth my time, even if his name is Brad Pitt.
Thu, 2007-06-28 10:56
#24
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]I do understand your argument, to a certain point. It bothers me more when older men eye-grope me, rather then young men, which I guess could feed into that. But I think that's because I see men close to my own age, as my peers.
If Brad Pitt looked at me in a crude and degrating way, he would get the EXACT same dirty look from me as any other man would, I gaurentee it. Depending on what we're talking about here, but if it's a crude comment, a lustful look, or anything else that I would find uncomfortable, I don't think it's excusable from ANYONE. So I agree with Polly, that's bullshit. Any guy that thinks any of those things will do the trick better than a smile, and a nice hello, isn't worth my time, even if his name is Brad Pitt.[/b]
Guess your in the very small minority.
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:09
#25
Well, that's depressing, if it's true.
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:14
#26
From what I know of my daughter and her friends, (and I know a surprising amount) it's true. If someone who they may otherwise think would be pretty hot acted like a jerk, he'd be dead in their eyes.
My daughter [i]et al[/i] do discuss some of their female peers as being insecure, and maybe going along with that sort of thing, but they discuss them in a sad and sympathetic manner.
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:23
#27
To prove an example on the Brad Pitt one, I know he's not 'good looking' like Brad, but I was out with a friend on Monday and a certain 'Greatest Hockey Player of All Time' walked into the restaurant (No, sorry Parry Sounders, I'm not talking about Bobby Orr), she went to the washroom and on her way back I saw her snarl at the 'Great One', I asked why she'd done that when she sat down and she said "Cause he kept staring at my ___ ! I thought he was supposed to be a nice guy, not a pervert!".
So point being (and no, I'm not trying to slander anyone here, I'm sure I've been guilty of the same offense) that if a woman feels objectified by anyone, no matter what positive feelings you have about that person in advance, you're still going to feel objectified.
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:25
#28
quote:
My daughter et al do discuss some of their female peers as being insecure, and maybe going along with that sort of thing, but they discuss them in a sad and sympathetic manner.
EXCELLENT point. I think maybe you're right, that's the difference. A few years ago, before I'd consider myself comfortable in my own skin, I'm sure I might have seen catcalls, or eye-gropes as flattering. You're right, when you're insecure, these things seem less objectifying I'm sure, at least in my experience.
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:27
#29
quote:
Originally posted by JayPotts:
[b]Guess your in the very small minority.[/b]
You know, Jay, this is starting to get offensive. How about not making sexist generalizations in the feminism forum anymore, okay?
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:37
#30
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
[b]To prove an example on the Brad Pitt one, I know he's not 'good looking' like Brad, but I was out with a friend on Monday and a certain 'Greatest Hockey Player of All Time' walked into the restaurant (No, sorry Parry Sounders, I'm not talking about Bobby Orr), she went to the washroom and on her way back I saw her snarl at the 'Great One', I asked why she'd done that when she sat down and she said "Cause he kept staring at my ___ ! I thought he was supposed to be a nice guy, not a pervert!".So point being (and no, I'm not trying to slander anyone here, I'm sure I've been guilty of the same offense) that if a woman feels objectified by anyone, no matter what positive feelings you have about that person in advance, you're still going to feel objectified.[/b]
Point taken, however I did say the vast majority of females wouldn't mind if Brad Pitt or the like was oglying them.
Most of the female memebers and thier friends of this website in particular would would be in that small minority.
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:38
#31
quote:
Point taken, however I did say the vast majority of females wouldn't mind if Brad Pitt or the like was oglying them.
Most of the female memebers and thier friends of this website in particular would would be in that small minority.
I'm just not sure I understand where that statement comes from. Who is to say that ANY woman enjoys this?
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:46
#32
I've never felt overly "comfortable in my own skin," and, not being conventionally pretty, I haven't had to deal with the constant catcalls or harrassment and stuff that many other women do. But when I moved to Toronto a few years ago, I was astonished to be stopped on the street on several occasion by some guy or other who tried to hit on me.
Honestly, it was a total turn-off, even for insecure me. I mean, sure, it was slightly good for the ego, considering I don't get that sort of thing much. But my main reaction, especially right in the moment, was annoyance and even anxiety and apprehension. In each case, the guy tried to find out my name, where I lived (like, EXACTLY where), what my phone number was, commented on my looks (positive, sure, but overdone, kind of crude, and embarrassing), and just sort of assumed that I'd like the attention. I don't think there has ever been a time in my life where I'd have reacted differently than I did then - by getting away from the guy as quickly and diplomatically as possible - and I've never been overly secure about my looks. If anything, women who are insecure or unused to dealing with that kind of thing might be slightly more accommodating than women who get it all the time - but that could be not because they're flattered but just haven't had as much practice dealing with it, and feel like they have to be polite or not hurt the person's feelings. Whereas women who have more experience with it have had time to process quite a few of those kind of incidents, think it over, and decide that the next guy who pulls this shit is going to be told in no uncertain terms to fuck off.
On the other hand, I've gone out dancing with friends, and occasionally been okay with some suggestive dance floor stuff. I was flattered by that - but it's because I always felt like it was on MY terms, and it would be after I was asked to dance, and it only went as far as I wanted it to go. If I started to feel uncomfortable, I just walked away and that was that. So, yes, it CAN be flattering to have guys come on to you in a bar if you're going out to dance and have a good time and you're looking for some dancing and flirting and fun.
But it's NOT fun to be leered at and groped when you're not into it, or the guy hasn't at least made any preliminary effort to find out whether you're in a "flirty" mood or not. It's not fun for anyone, secure or insecure, good looking or not good looking.
And I can't imagine having to deal with that sort of crap every day while walking down the street. I guess not being conventionally beautiful DOES have its benefits. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:51
#33
Well put Michelle.
I also apologize if anything I said was offensive. I just wanted to get across the point that what one female might find offensive another may not. Each person responds differently it's why some guys still do what they do.
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: JayPotts ]
Thu, 2007-06-28 11:56
#34
Definitely well put. Some of that falls into what I said above about how a nice smile and hello goes a long way, just like a "hey, do you want to dance," goes a long way. I don't think it's too much of a generalization to say that women like to go out and have fun! We all do. But it's so much more appreciated when nice gestures are presented, and not just non-consensual grinding at a club.
Thu, 2007-06-28 12:27
#35
Actually, this is something that has been running through my head for a few days. And I am really loving this thread! Thank you very much for opening it, Michelle.
I am going to start by admitting that I have done a quick double-take once in a while. It is one of those 'who hasn't?' situations when you try to minimize it, however I actually feel rather bad about it. However, one thing I will never do is catcall. A few days ago I was out with a few friends and gave one of the other people in the group a quick *thwap* on the back of the head - nothing hard - when he made a rather lude comment about a young woman that had just walked by us at our table. I'm never a fan of that.
I feel that my fellow men need to realize that not everyone feels comfortable being 'eye-fucked' as it was so properly put earlier in this thread and it should be something above a courtesy that you simply don't do it. I have never been comfortable in situations where I'm being the one that is oogled excessively. And yes, I would really be happy if more feminists would bind together and assert themselves against such encrouching and harrassing sorts.
I will also be the first to admit that I really didn't add anything to the thread other than a funny anecdote about me trying to knock some sense into another male.
Thu, 2007-06-28 12:39
#36
Left Turn
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]Jerry Seinfeld made a joke regarding exactly this, and I remember laughing so much when I heard it years ago, but I can't seem to track it down anywhere online![/b]
I think Jerry said it in his standup routine in the pilot episode. The punchline was "We're hoking our horns to serve you better".
Personally, I think that honking the car horn is rude under most situations. I mostly consider it to be aggresive behaviour akin to sticking ones head out the car window and yelling. I don't know why any woman would consider it a compliment to have a man honk their car horn at them. If I were a woman, my thought upon a man honking their car horn at me would be "you stupid, ingrateful, self-centred person!". Which is pretty much my thought as a man whenever someone honks their car horn at me.
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: Left Turn ]
Thu, 2007-06-28 12:45
#37
I know my sister has that Seinfeld routine on CD. The one that he released in the late 90's, right after the sitcom ended. I'm going to see if I can dig it out tonight and give it a listen.
Thu, 2007-06-28 12:45
#38
I know my sister has that Seinfeld routine on CD. The one that he released in the late 90's, right after the sitcom ended. I'm going to see if I can dig it out tonight and give it a listen.
Thu, 2007-06-28 12:47
#39
I hate being leered at, I think it is especially worse when I am alone at night. I think it has to do with social control and telling women that if they don’t want to be harassed, they should stay at home or have a guy to be with you at all times. It puts fear and insecurity into women, making us feel as if we are being judged and looked at all the time.
I don’t understand why men think just because someone dresses up a bit , it means she is looking for sex. *sigh*
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]
Thu, 2007-06-28 12:49
#40
That begs an interesting question, babblerwannabe. Is the male reaction based on how a female is dressed? I would agree that it is.
Thu, 2007-06-28 13:02
#41
Could be - but if you check out that hollabackcanada site, you'll see a post by a woman titled, "It doesn't matter what you wear" and she describes two incidents - one where she was dressed up in a skirt and camisole-shirt, and another one where she was wearing jeans and an XL t-shirt.
Thu, 2007-06-28 13:06
#42
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]That begs an interesting question, babblerwannabe. Is the male reaction based on how a female is dressed? I would agree that it is.[/b]
I don’t know, I would think men will leer at women less if women covered up themselves more. This is why it’s such a big deal for women to be topless, females are sexualized in a way that men are not.
Thu, 2007-06-28 18:58
#43
Is hitting on a woman in a club or bar considered sexual harrasment under all cercumstances?
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]
Thu, 2007-06-28 19:36
#44
Obviously not. A lot of people go to bars mainly or partly to get hit on, even if they don't intend to go home with anyone.
I admit I am a chronic girl-watcher. I'm attracted to lots of women I see in the streets, and I like to check them out. Sometimes I'm careful about it, sometimes I'm very obvious. is it wrong? I do wonder, but it doesn't stop me. I hope it doesn't bother anyone. I like to think girls are flattered when I try to catch their eye in passing, but of course I can't know. What's a guy who likes to look at girls to do?
It's a very tricky subject. Some here have said that looking is okay, but when it turns to leering it's bad, but when I look becomes a leer is entirely subjective. Obviously the girl knows, because she's the one who defines it as such, but how can the guy know? Where's the flashing light that pops up and tells us "subject of your attention has just considered your look to have become a leer. Stop immediately!"?
Sexual interaction of all kinds is very delicate and mercurial. Hitting on girls is welcome if they're attracted to you, but offensive if they're not. In the case of girl-watching, you don't even have the personal interplay to provide you with any signals to try and navigate by. Obviously, women have every right to set boundaries, but unless those boundaries are obvious, how can we respect them?
It's a very confusing state to be in, made all the more so by the overwhelming and fundamental nature of our sexual urges. Nobody is going to try and stop satisfying them, including the urge to simply look at lovely women. We just need to find proper ways to do it. Damned if I know how to do that, though.
Thu, 2007-06-28 19:48
#45
From my experience, less clothes = more looks and honks, but I've been honked at wearing a jacket and winter boots as well, so you never know...
I spent some time in France and there, the looks, catcalls and flat-out invitations for sex were over the top, disgusting and sometimes even threatening to me. I was shocked that this was seen as normal behaviour and felt quite ethnocentric for judging the local women for putting up with what seemed to me to be such macho crap. Since then, I haven't really been bothered by any attention I've gotten in Canada, so I guess it's all relative (although I think I would feel uncomfortable if any of this happened at night and/or in an isolated area).
I do agree that there is a different standard in clubs. Party because of the close proximity to other ppl and partly because of the atmosphere. If a guy tries to touch or dance with me once, that's okay. If I brush him off and he tries again, that's not. If I'm dancing with my girls and a bunch of guys come and surround us, that's not either.
Thu, 2007-06-28 20:11
#46
The fine line that get's crossed is that if I chose to go into public space I am public property. That some how my going to work, to the store, the vets I am fair game to have my time wasted by someone who thinks they are doing me a favour by being attracted to me. My autonomy is violatd by men who think because I am outside they have a right to even a second of my time by whistling, cat caling, gawking, or just plain getting in my face to tell me what they think I just need to know.
I maybe out in public but I am not public property. I go out in public to lead my life and interact with those I choose to, I really get irked when guys think the should chose for me who I should spend my time on. It's not about flattery or the segment of society who go to bars to get picked up or groped (I have yet to meet a woman who choses that but I guess their must be some) it's the assumption by men that no matter what I must hear them out in their pitch.
I object to the status quo that because I go out in public I am some how agreeing to be "eyefucked". I am just being and yet I am forced againt my will to deal with the agendas of men, I am never forced to deal with the same from women. So girl watching maybe a cute harmless passtime to some but it can turn into the assumption by many men that because I am not home I must deal with their desires, the ones they chose not to restrain and to that I say fuck off. I do not give up my right to chose who I interact with because I left my house. I don't leave my house to be "eye fucked", who has the right to intimidate another human being because they chose to venture into society? Why can't I expect to go to the store and be left alone?
I am not a fearful person, you chose to invade my space with overt staring, comments or a grab at my crotch and you'll be sorry. But I am the most sorry that I need to be so vigilante and downright nasty to be able to enjoy my freedoms as a person.
Thu, 2007-06-28 20:27
#47
Babblerwannabe:
quote:
I don’t understand why men think just because someone dresses up a bit, it means she is looking for sex. *sigh*
Again, it's the subjectivity of it. Not all guys who glance at attractive women are necessarily hoping she's out for sex.
In fact, considering that, as far as I can tell, all men are highly interested at an instinctive level at female physical features, I would say a majority aren't actually looking for sex.
According to a [url=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm]recent US study,[/url], men are biologically quite a bit more attracted to very gender-specific (as in female) physical features than women. So it’s pretty much instinctive for guys to notice women and various features. They may not even be aware at that moment they are doing it. And of course various types of complimentary dress, make-up, etc. can help enhance those features.
Of course, it works the opposite way too, although not as deeply or intensely on the women’s part. The women I have met, been involved with or talked to throughout life have said they react more how a guy engages them, how he behaves and treats people, the things he does, etc., not so much looks.
So just because one takes pleasant notice of women, doesn't necessarily mean one is ready to hit the sack with her (which, of course, as you point out, in most cases, the women aren't either). Just because a women dresses in an exceptionally complimentary way, doesn’t mean she is necessarily looking for sex or even trying to solicit more attention. As some have pointed out, just because she may want to feel more beautiful or attractive, that is as much an instinctive act in itself—not for any other reason.
So it’s not a question of noticing or not. It’s more of a question of being somewhat respectful of who you happen to be noticing. A subtle glance may not be even noticeable (I’m pretty good at that [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] ). A total eye-expanding gawk is certainly an invasion of a person’s space.
I have always found especially rewarding when an attractive woman (or women) catches your eye and returns a quick smile, as if she has taken the glance as a compliment. Some times it might spark a quick funny conversation. But that’s usually it. It’s obvious no one is ready to do the sack thing.
quote:
I would think men will leer at women less if women covered up themselves more.
It’s a general rule that less clothes, plus shapely features equals more attention. But even an attractive well-covered woman is still noticeable. And, as said, many women sometimes do like to wear less (I have read it has to do with fertility periods) or be noticed more. Again, it seems pretty instinctive—not because they are actually looking for anything.
CMOT Dibbler:
quote:
Is hitting on a woman in a club or bar considered sexual harassment under all cercumstances?
No it’s not. In North American and many European cultures, especially since the 1960s, bars and night clubs, and especially discos, are generally seen as places where many women go to get hit on. No point in minimizing it. It’s what those types of places are in business for.
But again, though, there’s still a big difference between wanting to get hit on and consenting to sex or even any other less intimate physical contact. I tell younger guys that I work with or talk to via activism that just because a women looks good, dresses sexy and flirts is not necessarily a green light for the physical stuff, and just touching her in a way she doesn’t like can be considered assault. That’s why the above mentioned conversation and inter-personal engagement is so important, as is respect for her personal space.
Thu, 2007-06-28 20:51
#48
Women can be every bit as superficial and discriminating as far as physical attributes are concerned as some guys can be.
They should do a remake that famous SNL skit with the Roxbury guys barging into the wedding reception uninvited, only they're foxy women on the make instead of cool dudes. "What is love?" [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Thu, 2007-06-28 21:25
#49
TemporalHominid
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
[b]The fine line that get's crossed is that if I chose to go into public space I am public property. That .... I go out in public to lead my life and interact with those I choose to, I really get irked when guys think the should chose for me who I should spend my time on. ......I am not a fearful person, you chose to invade my space with overt staring, comments or a grab at my crotch and you'll be sorry. But I am the most sorry that I need to be so vigilante and downright nasty to be able to enjoy my freedoms as a person.[/b]
I think this post summed up what many others are trying to communicate.. Your way with words Scout has aided in me comprehending what really is going on in public spaces.
I don't want to make this about me, as a male in society, and my ability to perceive what may or may not be happening... but I suspect that many males might feel they ought to control the agenda in public space for their self gratification.
People do enjoy looking (psychologically) at symmetrical faces and bodies, and admiring subjective beauty (a whole other issue), but at a community level the enjoyment needs to serve the community and be socially healthy, not serve individual sexual gratification.
I think society is more media savvy than ever, more aware as consumers than we ever have been, yet males are still socialized, and are still not aware that they are encouraged to dominate the social agenda in public spaces.
Our public spaces are chock full of mixed messages on hundreds (if not thousands) of ads on billboards and on buses and in media full of images of women's body's and subjective beauty being used to sell products.
I wonder if there are many males with the skills to navigate this, where the mind is being subjected to all these images in public space, and then that same mind sees real living female human beings going about their business in the same public space.
Can the psyche differentiate between two dimensional visual ads, and 3 dimensional human beings thousands of times a day when it is not critically thinking about the messages in public spaces that imply, "the public space belongs to the male", seek out your mate, gratify your impluses.
It's time for communities to take back the public spaces to serve an agenda that benefits the community, not just individual gratifications in a community, or the profits of the corporations that sponsor these ads in our communities that communicate to males that they ought to dominate the agenda in public spaces.
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]
Thu, 2007-06-28 21:54
#50
quote:
Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
[b]I think this post summed up what many others are trying to communicate.. Your way with words Scout has aided in me comprehending what really is going on in public spaces.
I don't want to make this about me, as a male in society, and my ability to perceive what may or may not be happening... but I suspect that many males might feel they ought to control the agenda in public space for their self gratification.
People do enjoy looking (psychologically) at symmetrical faces and bodies, and admiring subjective beauty (a whole other issue), but at a community level the enjoyment needs to serve the community and be socially healthy, not serve individual sexual gratification.
I think society is more media savvy than ever, more aware as consumers than we ever have been, yet males are still socialized, and are still not aware that they are encouraged to dominate the social agenda in public spaces.
Our public spaces are chock full of mixed messages on hundreds (if not thousands) of ads on billboards and on buses and in media full of images of women's body's and subjective beauty being used to sell products.
I wonder if there are many males with the skills to navigate this, where the mind is being subjected to all these images in public space, and then that same mind sees real living female human beings going about their business in the same public space.
Can the psyche differentiate between two dimensional visual ads, and 3 dimensional human beings thousands of times a day when it is not critically thinking about the messages in public spaces that imply, "the public space belongs to the male", seek out your mate, gratify your impluses.
It's time for communities to take back the public spaces to serve an agenda that benefits the community, not just individual gratifications in a community, or the profits of the corporations that sponsor these ads in our communities that communicate to males that they ought to dominate the agenda in public spaces.
[ 28 June 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ][/b]
This is really insightful, I agree with you completely.
Thu, 2007-06-28 23:22
#51
quote:
yet males are still socialized, and are still not aware that they are encouraged to dominate the social agenda in public spaces.
I definitely believe in the reality of socialisation, and the ways in which it encourages males to dominate public space and the social agenda, but I think all these concepts are ill-applied to the phenomenon of men openly lusting after women.
If you raised a (heterosexual) man in a controlled environment without any other people (if such a thing could be possible without severe emotional damage) and then loosed him into the world as we know it, he would still be consumed by sexual urges for the women he saw, though he would have no frame of reference for what was happening or why. This is an entirely biological phenomenon, designed to perpetuate the species. This poor fellow would stare, he would leer, and with no socialisation to tell him what is appropriate or not around other people, he would probably act on every passing sexual whim and start grabbing women randomly.
Socialisation doesn't make men act more lustfully, it makes them act less so. Your complaint is not that men are over-socialised to act on their instincts, because instincts being instincts, they require no socialisation. Your complaint is that they are under-socialised to restrain their instincts.