"Girl-watching"

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I admit I am a chronic girl-watcher. I'm attracted to lots of women I see in the streets, and I like to check them out. Sometimes I'm careful about it, sometimes I'm very obvious. is it wrong? I do wonder, but it doesn't stop me. I hope it doesn't bother anyone. I like to think girls are flattered when I try to catch their eye in passing, but of course I can't know. What's a guy who likes to look at girls to do?

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Eye-catches don’t bother me. I’m sure there has even been a gentleman or two our there who have caught me eye-ing them. You’re right, most of us do it, and it’s okay, and can be flattering. I guess it’s difficult to describe the differentiation between a look and a leer to the opposite sex. Some examples could be: When you catch someone’s eye, and instead of slight embarrassment and looking away, this person just keeps staring, maintaining awkward eye-contact! Or, when it’s directed to certain body parts, in a very obvious way, for a lengthy period of time!

Great subject...people looking at people. I think we're talking about very deeply coded instinctual behaviours here, and the glances we trade in passing are just the tip of the iceberg.

The sexual glances a subset of the broader realm.

I think regardless of gender people, being social animals, will tend to look up when entering visual contact range with another person. Certain instinctive judgements occur before one glances elsewhere, or decides to continue the scrutiny. One reads a person for threat potential, curiosity - how many legs do they have - race, age, social status. Its all useful, potentially survival information about whatever tribe or neighbourhood we happen to be travelling among.

To catch or not catch an eye a further step. Sometimes a face will be so interesting or attractive that one will continue to examine it past the point where one might look away and dismiss the potential - that exists in every crossing of paths - for further socializing.

Most of the time one surveys approaching faces for noteworthy criteria but lightly and noncommitally, so as not to give offence, invite too intense a return scrutiny, etc. and looks away without engagement.

The sexual element enters in immediately one recognizes a potential mating partner and I'm sure we're dealing with DNA that reaches back at least to early mammals but probably for as long as there have been eyes. One quickly assesses for biological features - and here cultural conditioning a big factor - that might support the prospect of sexual reproduction.

At this point cultural conditioning should kick in and offer some guidance. We're not taught this stuff in school, but we certainly learn it, its culture not biology, and the mores around it vary from place to place.

At any rate, this is a long way off from the stuff of this thread. On a personal level, besides being an avid people-watcher - I never tire of it - I love looking at women, which obviously has a sexual component; and being looked at by women; I love looking longer at ones I think are attractive, I love the game component that sometimes attend this, the whole ritual is fascinating! Trying to gauge by the length and timing of their attention how interested they are in me, etc. Narcissism!

But out of respect one is discrete and this is a social convention I think most people practice. You can look, and enjoy the looking, but if you stare, or sustain the look or invest it with too much intensity you have transgressed the bounds of proper practice. Ideally the look, if addressed to someone you find attractive, can be handled in such a way as to be a subtle compliment. Ah ha, I find you attractive enough to let my eye linger on you a moment or two past the time it takes to finish reading your appearance!

Then you get these nice games where you find yourself complimented in turn, their glance averting just as you begin your own, then returning as you avert/redirect your own gaze.

Gender differences and conditioning, how often I remark this - yesterday for example, I looked up and saw a girl, perhaps 10 and noted how she glanced down/away as I approached, even at that prepubescent age. What multiple forces at play there, familial, peer group, community....where and when did this child learn to avert her eyes from men? I wore my usual benign, non-sexual, non-threatening look, there was nothing particular or engaging about my expression. And I remarked at the time, hm, how people are conditioned. I was somehow sorry for this child because the natural thing is to look at the approaching stranger, out of human curiosity; but gender roles come into play and already this girl had learned to suppress this natural drive in the interests of community sexual codes.

The coyness of the averted eye, wielded by a sexually mature and available adult, in distinction from the above example, which is to express non-presence, a deliberate wish to not-engage.

How much can be read from this. The woman has/does not have a partner for a start. If she has a partner, then the averted eye is real. Body language reinforces this. If she is curious/looking, then the averted eye may be part of a game of look-at-me. I am looking away now to allow you to look at me without me seeing you looking at me (you may admire me).

the number of times one glances over just as the other is finishing their glance...the sexual game one plays where one pretends to NOT look, only to steal a glance at the last second - only to find them doing exactly the same. Something in the first unfocussed, scanning read registered information that called for a further, closer look....and the game here, of course, is to manage this second look without getting caught, for that would be to frankly acknowledge one's interest and intent, which won't do at all! No, no, not buying today! Or, you're not that cute, I know you've caught me stealing that second glance but I'm still much too cool, and self-possessed to admit it even now!

Passing couples, one is naturally curious - as a male - to look at the woman principally or first, but out of politeness I tend to look at both in turn, almost as if seeking permission; I'll still look at the woman, but more briefly than I might otherwise, as if in passing, and still feel a little rude. Accident/not accident sort of thing. Ahem.

The amount of candour: too much and one comes off as brazen. It is after all, potentially impolite. You're messing with someone's mental space, their attention, if you look too strongly. But the fun when there is a mutual matching, as each party dares/invites the other to show more.

And again, in our culture it is discouraged, impolite. God forbid you should reveal anything in your gaze! 'Guarded' the default position.

Because of course, the shared look is so potent! Inaudible, immaterial, it is still the threshold to remarkable things! It can inaugurate conversation with a total stranger, a sexual relationship, or a physical attack if its object is an unpolished male with issues!

Two days ago I was bicycling past a row of cars slowing for an approaching light. Lost in thought I looked up from my dedicated bike lane and found myself suddenly staring in the face of a notably pretty woman, a passenger in a car who must have been staring out her open window, as abstracted as myself. There was this charming moment of mutual delight as we both recognized the accidental nature of our eyes bumping into each other's faces at just the same moment; we beamed broadly at each other as I passed by, sharing this joke.

[ 29 June 2007: Message edited by: Merowe ]

Men and women are so different. We go through this eternal push/pull dance that is, I believe, our basic human animal biological mating ritual. Males constantly trying to attract, women constantly discriminating. Of course as humans there are socially acceptable behaviors but I think our basic animalistic mating desires are what drives these behaviors, like the "honk".

Personally, as a male, I would love to be objectified once in a while. I spent fourteen damn dollars on a goddamn stick of Axe deodorant and it's not working. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Anyway this is for jrose:

And this is what we men really want:

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Originally posted by Maritimesea:
[b]Personally, as a male, I would love to be objectified once in a while. I spent fourteen damn dollars on a goddamn stick of Axe deodorant and it's not working. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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You could try shaving your head and tanning. Go to the gymn and get a body. Some women like that. Or try dying your hair Nordic blonde, tan lotion, and undo your shirt to expose chest hair. Of course, you'll be trying to attract women with fetishes for those things, so if you're looking for a bookworm, then shift the venue slightly. Go about your daily routine as if you couldn't care less, and you'll be hit on left, right and centre. Women will go out of their way to bump into you. What is luuuuv ? [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Alright, now here's a story. It's inappropriate for this thread, and I should more appropriately title one "When A Leer Becomes Beer Bottles Cracked Over Your Friends Head," but this thread was one of the first things I thought of when I was being questioned by the cops. So, here goes.

I'm in Ottawa right now, for some Canada Day festivities/Re-united with some old friends that I haven't seen in a few months. Canada Day was a quiet BBQ with friends that ended just after supper time. So, instead of heading downtown for the way-too-busy, predictable celebration, we walked to the end of my friend's street, who I am staying with for a few days, to visit a pub, have a few pints, and started our walk home around 2 a.m. An early night for Canada Day!

It was myself, and my three male buddies, tying into the comments up higher about how females and males need to be friends more often. Three young kids, 18-20ish, were walking on the other side of the street, glaring at us, me in particular, and started making lewd, crude, disgusting comments about me. My friends, being the kind of guys they are, wouldn't laugh it off, seeing it as a personal attack, and my one buddy stopped, and just glared at the kids. Nothing too threatening, just enough to say that they had crossed a line, and it wouldn't be tolerated. Two seconds later beer bottles were flying through the air at my friends, three-on-three, while I basically stood there trying my best not to get involved.

Beer bottles became home-made weapons, that these kids had in their pockets. Clearly already looking for a fight. Socks, filled with coins. This turned into their belt buckles in this absolute complete random act of violence. My friends kept shouting "you've won! We're going home," but this only aggrivated the attackers worse. At this point kids came running from all the other apartment buildings around us. For me, I was thinking, finally, someone is here to help, and break it up! Little did I know that it was just more buddies of these guys, bringing the fight to three against at least seven or eight. Relentless beating.

Finally, a lady got out of her car, and put herself int he middle. She called the cops, and the kids scattered across the neighbourhood. So, long story, short (well, I tried to keep it short!) we spend the last half hour of our evening with the cops, recounting this brutal, random act of violence. Nobody laid a hand on me, except for one shove, but I have a friend with a tooth chiped half-way through, and all three of them are black and blue.

I know, not the right thread, but like I said above, I immediately thought of this one, given how this violence began. It's amazing, four and a half years in Ottawa and I never once thought twice about roaming the streets at ridiculous hours of the night. But trust me, from now on I'll think long and hard about it!

Most definitely, I think you're right. Which, I'm sure is why I thought of this thread almost immediately afterwards. I'll never think of a leer, or a sexist comment the same way again, that's for sure.

Yea, she saved us that night, without a doubt. I wish I could have done more. I was just frozen. It's not every day you see three of your best friends on the ground, being beaten. But, this woman got right in the middle, and tried to put an end to it, which she ultimately did. Seems to me, that these kids had NO sense in them whatsoever, except when it came to not hitting women.

jrose, I'm so sorry this happened. I hope you're not being hard on yourself for freezing.

Thanks everyone! Sorry about the delay in response, I'm still without the internet in Ottawa, just checking in on my mail etc. at Carleton.

The friend's wounds are healing just fine. Thanks for the concern!

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Originally posted by Agent 204:
[b]...I think that when a bunch of guys start whistling and catcalling at a woman, they're displaying [i]for each other[/i], not for the woman- they're trying to prove their manhood, and the woman is just the occasion for it. That may have been the case with the kids who attacked your friends, too.[/b]

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keen observation Agent 204. jrose, this has been on my mind since you posted it and i must say each time i read it i feel ill. don't for a second be hard on yourself for "freezing" in this senselessly violent situation. really, you did nothing wrong. relating to Agent's observation, clearly you were not the target, but a convienient catalyst for these idiots who were out looking for a fight. they were too cowardly to pick one directly with your male friends, and when your friends reacted quite naturally to the verbal assault on you, that was all the excuse needed to attack. pure cowardice, plain and simple. i had many flashbacks as i was reading this to growing up in Kamloops and Winnipeg. lots of drive-by toughguys using the women i was walking with to provoke a fight with me and/or the other males with them. I would always cringe and look for some sort of defensive object immediately. the absolute predictable result of any reaction is more verbal, then if they are really out cruising, physical assault. there is nothing you or your friends could likely have done to prevent what happened, sadly. If you had reacted, as was pointed out, these fools were obviously conditioned not to hit women ( they left you alone, and another woman, older in particular, was able to break it up), they would have attacked your male friends. your pals reacted and the result was the same. i grew up living in mortal fear of assholes like that. my instant reaction now as a result of that fear is to confront and shut down any and all violence when i see it. this does not need to be done physically now we have cell phones, but in one surprising incident when i called the police on two kids breaking into a car, they pointed me out to an older buddy of thiers who walked right up and physically threatened me while i was talking to the police!

i guess the real nub of this is that regardless of what any of you could or would have done, these kids used the catcalling to initiate an attack. total macho crap. i am at a loss though as to what to do to prevent it. we are bombarded daily by violence as entertainment and as a solution to our problems. that eventually results in conditioning some in society to emulate what they are fed. the only thing really is to have zero tolerance for violence in person and act on it. question: were the kids that did this caught?

i hesitated commenting on the "girl-watching" topic of this thread until i read that account of jrose's experience. I am, by my own description, a "rubbernecker". and yes, it has caused me trouble, but primarily from walking into a pole (once), running into the back of my friend and then having to explain why we bumped the couple ahead of us, and recently, catching my bike on a pole (i was walking). all quite embarassing, but funny to all concerned at the time. i think that there is a huge difference between people of either sexes discretely checking each other out, and derogatory cat calling/wolf whislting/demeaning behaviour or comments. i do think the first, as it has been mentioned above can be quite harmless, and if non-threatening, sometimes enjoyed by the other party. the line is absolutely drawn though by the person on the recieving end. if they don't like it, then it's not cool. period. the proper thing to do is to appologise if you are caught/confronted in that situation. or you could be like me and walk into a pole and get a laugh at your own expense.

[ 06 July 2007: Message edited by: farnival ]

ugh. I've read this whole thread plus the recent links - I can feel my chest tightening up.

My neighbourhood gets cruised by alot of *johns* who think any female on the street is a sex worker. Doesn't matter if I'm carrying several bags of groceries or riding my bike - they think I'm for sale. It's intimidating when a car slows down and circles back. My body starts preparing for a confrontation. The adrenaline makes me a bit dizzy and I just want to duck for cover.

Once I was even followed into my apartment building after I bade farewell to the last of my Thanksgiving guests. Luckily those guests were still within sight of me and came back to my aid in a BIG hurry.

I do get oogled by 'non-johns' as well. The last guy who wouldn't take no for an answer didn't care that I am married OR from out of town! Luckily I was with a friend who could just drive me out of the area.

I've been followed home. I've been fondled and groped. I've even been raped twice. To me it's all the same crap. I am seen as less of a person because of my sex.

I must live a sheltered life. I can only recall a handful of times where anyone has made a catcall or harrassed me, and they were never that hard to dissuade. Now that I'm over forty, it's even less frequent.

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As part of her research, Kearl conducted an anonymous, informal e-mail survey of 225 women on the subject. She found that 98 percent of respondents experienced some form of street harassment at least a few times, while about 30 percent reported being harassed on a regular basis.

"For me, anyone who interrupts my personal space to objectify me or make me feel uncomfortable or threatened is harassing me," she says.

Women take both sides

As the weather warms each spring, women -- especially in cities with active sidewalk traffic -- once again face catcalls from men. It's a situation some find unnerving and an invasion of their space, while others ignore or are even flattered by.

"I call it street abuse," says New York City filmmaker Maggie Hadleigh-West, 49. "It's unwanted attention and invasion of space."

In her 1998 documentary "War Zone," Hadleigh-West confronted catcallers and filmed their responses. Many of the men literally ran away to avoid talking to her about why they whistled or made a provocative comment. The Department of Defense has used the film since 2002 to train branches of the military about issues surrounding sexual harassment and sexism in general, she says.

"Being in a public space with a strange man who is being sexually aggressive is potentially dangerous," Hadleigh-West adds.

On the other hand, some women appreciate the attention in certain cases, like Jessica, a 31-year-old health-care educator in Los Angeles, who declined to use her last name to protect her privacy. "Yeah, it's objectifying and all, but you know, if I walked down the street and didn't have men looking me up and down and catcalling, I'd think, 'Boy I must really be getting old and dumpy'," she says.

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It is an interesting article, though I find it difficult to relate to the young women who are flattered by cat calls. I’m flattered when a nice guy comes and offers to buy me a coffee, or smiles at me on the street (boyfriend or not, I’m allowed to be flattered!), but laying on the horn or grabbing at me as I walk by isn’t flattering. Either is calling me a “bitch” when I don’t stop to chat or if I reply with a snarky comment or an eye roll, or even the finger if I’m feeling a little sassy. Last time I checked, my body wasn’t public property.

[ 14 May 2008: Message edited by: jrose ]

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In her 1998 documentary "War Zone," Hadleigh-West confronted catcallers and filmed their responses. Many of the men literally ran away to avoid talking to her about why they whistled or made a provocative comment.

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She won't have been the only one who's noticed that straight men have trouble taking their own medicine. [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

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To me it's all the same crap. I am seen as less of a person because of my sex.

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I agree and boy did this make me sad. It's hard to get men to understand just how much we, as females, are trained not to see ourselves, but to see ourselves through the eyes of men. I think in that sense, we lose touch with who we are, who we can be, and who we want to be.

I've been on subways and had guys masturbate in front of me. I've been touched, fondled and groped since I was a small child. Even back then I grew to think of my body as something not belonging to me at all but more like this thing I had to show off for the sake of men. After so much harassment, you really begin to feel that your living self is no longer your own, but belongs to the public domain.

And I am awfully tired of the police, and other agencies who say that we, as women, must watch where we go at night, who we are with, watch our drinks like hawks, watch what we wear, watch over our shoulders. Why not tell men to stop their behaviours? Why are women always the ones who end up with the onus of doing something and why are men given a free pass, as if sex assaults and unwanted sexual harassment is something isolated. We all know it isn't isolated, but a long ingrained theory that our bodies belong to men. It is men who need to change. Not us.

I heartily agree with the previous posts, and wanted to add that the notion of "stranger danger" is one of the issues most easily accessible to the mainstream, in convincing them that violence against women, including this type of "public space" harassment, is real and not made up by over-sensitive women. Making public space safe for all women is very important.

That said, we all know that the most likely attacker and harasser a woman will face is someone known to her. I know that most people posting currently already know this. But I think it helps to remember that, as horrific as street harassment is, and I've suffered from far less of it than most women, it's by far not the worst a woman can experience in terms of verbal harassment. There's patriarchy for you.

And to Kayla from Feministing: dump that fucking idiot as soon as possible.

When in Romula... [img]cool.gif" border="0[/img]