College Tuition II

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Fri, 2007-07-13 10:05

Fidel

[url=http://www.alliednews.com/statenews/cnhinsall_story_192140525.html][b]Can’t pay for college? It’s no wonder[/b](USA)[/url]

18 percent ??? It seems the mafia is handling student loans in your country, Sven.

I think part of being a good business owner in a capitalist setup is having the intuition and general smarts to be able to assess someone's credit risk before loaning them whack loads of money for a mortgage or student loan at leg-breaker interest rates like that. No worry, because conservatives know the government will step in to act as debt collectors on their behooves. Conservatives like it when the feds help out with pushing money upwards instead of the other way. Conservatives like big visible hand government when it intervenes to rob the poor and handing it to them.

Fri, 2007-07-13 10:24

#53

Fidel

Does anyone know of a lender where Canadian students can borrow at five percent ?. That's not bad compared to the setup in Canada.

Still, it's a corporate welfare setup for banks and loan sharks in the states. Taxpayers are on the hook for the other 4.5 percent. It's socialism for the rich in order to prop up an ideology that doesn't work any better now than it did in the 1930's.

[url=http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article1376.html][b]Credit as a Public Utility:[/b] the Key to Monetary Reform[/url]

I think we ended up with Genoan type bankers not Medici's.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Fri, 2007-07-13 10:38

#54

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Sven:
[QB}
If my choice as a young person was to (1) work hard, go into debt, and get a college education at a tuition rate of five grand a year or (2) not go to college, the decision would be simple.[/QB]

I guess we should all become lawyers and doctors too, if only the schools themselves would let us. No point going to school unless the job you get after will pay off your debt many times over. Teachers, biologists, social workers need not apply.

Fri, 2007-07-13 10:46

#55

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
[b]I guess we should all become lawyers and doctors too, if only the schools themselves would let us. No point going to school unless the job you get after will pay off your debt many times over. Teachers, biologists, social workers need not apply.[/b]

Law school and college are two different things. In that second paragraph, I was talking about college, not law school. Again, with respect to [b][i]college[/b][/i], the choice is a no-brainer, even if one does not go on to law school or other advanced education.

Fri, 2007-07-13 10:54

#56

Fidel

Jas, according to Sven the kids just have to save up a piddling $5000, and they're on easy street to college town. All those incidentals like rent, groceries, books and transportation to and from should be considered mere afterthoughts. They can mow lawns and save thousands. Mowing lawns is such a good trade now that it looks an even surer thing than a college education after the banks and middlemen mafia types are paid off.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:01

#57

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Jas, according to Sven the kids just have to save up a piddling $5000, and they're on easy street to college town. All those incidentals like rent, groceries, books and transportation to and from should be considered mere afterthoughts. They can mow lawns and save thousands. Mowing lawns is such a good trade now that it looks an even surer thing than a college education after the banks and middlemen mafia types are paid off.[/b]

I never said it was “easy street”. If fact, I [b][i]explicitly[/b][/i] said above that it’s not “easy”. It’s hard work but far from insurmountable. And, like I also said above, for those who truly [b][i]need[/b][/i] assistance (i.e., they are not able to work or a variety of other factors), I think the government should help them. But, that is a small minority of people. If a student is not willing to work hard and pay for as much of their education as possible (for which they will personally benefit), why the hell should I pay for it?

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:04

#58

jrose

quote:

And, like I also said above, for those who truly need assistance

And how should the government decide who is in need of assistance and who is not? Who should have the future of the country's youth in their hands?

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:16

#59

Fidel

You should go on the campaign trail and give campus pep talks on how to pay for college. Tell them if they want to avoid mafia-style usury, all they have to do is work harder. A lot harder. I think you'll get told where to direct yourself by kids already half asleep from pulling McNight shifts and who've mowed their fair share of lawns.

Meanwhile, kids in other rich nations just go to school and aren't hounded for student loan payments at anywhere from six to 18 percent interest. Conservatives will find any excuse for trickle up economics other than suggest something's wrong. It's a no-brainer for some people apparently.

Anybody throwing around figures of $5000 bucks a year has already admitted to being out of touch with the current situation. Conservatives tend to rely heavily on anecdotal evidence to prove they aren't dealing in the here and now.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:22

#60

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jrose:
[b]And how should the government decide who is in need of assistance and who is not? Who should have the future of the country's youth in their hands?[/b]

Just like we do with all decisions like that. Legislatively.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:23

#61

jrose

On a case by case basis?

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:26

#62

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]Anybody throwing around figures of $5000 bucks a year has already admitted to being out of touch with the current situation. Conservatives tend to rely heavily on anecdotal evidence to prove they aren't dealing in the here and now.[/b]

Only conservatives rely on anecdotal evidence? Com'on. I see progressives doing the same thing all the time on babble.

That being said, I did do some research before continuing this discussion on this new thread. Here is an excellent source regarding [url=http://www.canadian-universities.net/Campus/Tuition-Fees.html]college tuition in Canadian colleges and universities[/url].

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:27

#63

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jrose:
[b]On a case by case basis?[/b]

No. You establish standards and guidelines.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:28

#64

jrose

These standards and guidelines would be the same ones that pose a problem with OSAP and other scholarship/bursary programs. It's comparing apples to oranges. Many young people hoping to enter post-secondary education have very different problems from one another. It would be impossible, or just plain insulting, to try and categorize this and build a criteria for need.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:34

#65

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by jrose:
[b]
And how should the government decide who is in need of assistance and who is not?[/b]

That's a no brainer for conservatives. The banks and feds themselves are the ones who should profit from student loans as well as taxpayer handouts. And those students denied federal student loans can always resort to dealing with loan sharks and donating their time to low wage philanthropy for an education.

And if a quarter century worth of what amounts to indentured servitude for an education doesn't appeal to them all that much, there's always the military and going to war against the enemy loitering around in their own countries. In exchange for donating your time and risking life and limb for imperialism, Canadians, too, have the real free market option to shoot poor people as time served for a [url=http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/home/home.aspx?bhcp=1][b]taxpayer funded education[/b][/url].
Conservatives really do believe in socialism but only when it suits their imperialist needs.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:35

#66

Stephen Gordon

quote:

Originally posted by jrose:
These standards and guidelines would be the same ones that pose a problem with OSAP and other scholarship/bursary programs. It's comparing apples to oranges. Many young people hoping to enter post-secondary education have very different problems from one another. It would be impossible, or just plain insulting, to try and categorize this and build a criteria for need.

Why? Governments do this all the time in other contexts. Nor do I recall feeling insulted because I had to fill out a few forms in order to obtain student assistance.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ]

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:44

#67

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
[b]
Why? Governments do this all the time in other contexts. Nor do I recall feeling insulted because I had to fill out a few forms in order to obtain student assistance.
[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Stephen Gordon ][/b]

[Anectodal on] A friend of mine paid $80 dollars a year administration fees in France a number of years ago. She came home with degrees in three languages. Kids in Spain and France and Sweden and all over just don't understand what student loan debt is. Canada has one of the most complicated student loan application systems with its gauntlet of forms ,rules and procedures in the industrialized world along with paying the highest interest rates on student loans.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:46

#68

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b]...its gauntlet of forms ,rules and procedures...[/b]

Isn't that pretty much true of most things run by a government?

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:51

#69

jrose

OSAP was good to me, and MANY other students, and I'd never completely knock it, but I know young people who wanted nothing more to go to school, but did not meet the criteria set forth by OSAP. However, OSAP did realize this, to a certain point, and has [url=http://www.ousa.ca/sef/in_the_news/id/16.html]revamped in recent years.[/url] Not flawless, but slowly improving.

quote:

OSAP eligibility criteria revamped: Parental income will play smaller role in determining eligibility
Queen’s Journal, Jan 20
By STACEY BOWMAN
Students may be able to look forward to an increase in their OSAP funds in the near future.
The provincial government is planning to rework the current eligibility requirements for OSAP to make them more accurate and efficient indicators of financial need, according to a recent Toronto Star article.
Mary Anne Chambers, minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, told the Toronto Star the current emphasis on parental income is unfair to students whose parents do not contribute to their education.
AMS President Chrissie Knitter is pleased with Chambers’ initiative.
“I’m glad to see Minister Chambers’ commitment to reform the OSAP program,” Knitter said. “It’s another indication of the government’s commitment to higher education.”
Although she acknowledged the re-evaluation of eligibility requirements is a good step, Knitter said her greatest concern is that the maximum allowable loan is too low.
“There are a few major problems with OSAP criteria,” Knitter said. “The biggest problem is the maximum allowable loan limit has not increased in the last 10 years, while tuition has increased [by more than] 137 per cent.”
The current maximum OSAP loan for a single student is $275 per week, a total of $9,350 over a maximum study period of 34 weeks.
Knitter said she is also concerned with the role parental income plays in determining a student’s eligibility for assistance is often unfair.
“The assessment of need is not fair to all students,” Knitter said. “It doesn’t allow for special circumstances. One of those circumstances would be if parents are unable to contribute to their child’s education at the amount the government expects.”
Teresa Alm, associate University registrar of student awards, said parental income and a family’s other financial commitments play an important role in determining the funding allocated to a student through OSAP.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:52

#70

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Sven:
[b]
Isn't that pretty much true of most things run by a government?[/b]

Conservative and Liberal governments, yes. But if we've been paying attention here, it's not the same deal in Europe and Scandinavia where kids just go to school relative to the big-giant conservative bureaucratic situation here. Europe and Scandinavia, where proportional democracy is the rule, and where political conservatives tread lightly. Oh ya, Swede's have swung hard to the right again. Kids in that country are now expected to actually cough up something toward living expenses while attending university, a hard shift to the right.

Fri, 2007-07-13 11:55

#71

500_Apples

My brother in law started saving for college around age 12, circa 1990. By age 17 he had some 30, 000$ saved up, from doing things like working in a furniture store. He was also doing tons of extracurricular activities and going on lots of dates. There are some key differences though. He didn't need to pay for any necessities, just luxuries. And because he was intelligent he never spent much time on homework. Less intelligent HS students who literally need two hours a day for their homework might not be able to work part-time.

In my own experience, I'd bide my time reading magazines and journals and playing video games. My first part-time job was at 18 but I wish it were at 16. My HS had class 8am to 6pm due to religion courses so it was difficult to work part-time during the year. The montreal economy was crap and it was very difficult for a student to find part-time employment. I was perfectly willing to work for minimum wage... but companies would offer like 25 hours a week, or 15 hours a week, and they would demand that you be available all the time to suit their scheduling needs. Sometimes I would get home at 5am and go to my other job at 8am, and repeat for a few days in a row. I was doing one job at minimum wage, the other 0.70$ higher; neither wanted to give more than 25 hours a week. I was scrambling to pay for books. Mercifully, near the end of that summer, I found two consecutive weekends where I could go guinea pig for algorithme pharma. Thanks to those 620$ (tax free!), I had money for books.

So my conclusion is yes, some opportunities like Sven describe are available, but not always. We should encourage kids to take such opportunities, but not expect that every kid can do so all the time.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

Fri, 2007-07-13 12:11

#72

jrose

I think that point feeds into the fact that kid's aren't necessarily lazy, but a lot of them, myself included in my teen years, don't know the value of money. And without that understanding, it's very difficult to save and prioritize. Sounds like Sven was one of the ones who understood it, but I wish I was sat down at 15, and my parents helped me map out a savings plan. Instead, I was 19, and all of a sudden had no money for school, and my parents had been too embarrassed, or ashamed to ever confront me with the fact that they couldn't afford to send me and that we weren't financially prepared until alomst the day I left for school!

Fri, 2007-07-13 12:23

#73

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jrose:
[b]I think that point feeds into the fact that kid's aren't necessarily lazy, but a lot of them, myself included in my teen years, don't know the value of money. And without that understanding, it's very difficult to save and prioritize. Sounds like Sven was one of the ones who understood it, but I wish I was sat down at 15, and my parents helped me map out a savings plan. Instead, I was 19, and all of a sudden had no money for school, and my parents had been too embarrassed, or ashamed to ever confront me with the fact that they couldn't afford to send me and that we weren't financially prepared until alomst the day I left for school![/b]

That is very true, jrose. I think that society no longer inculcates young people with an understanding of money, savings, and the value of hard work from an early age. As a little kid, I (and my siblings) knew I was going to school after high school. It was just an expectation that my folks had of us and we (the kids) were going to save and prepare for it. But, that was “old school”, as it were. Now, people expect “others” (“the rich”, the government, or whomever) to take care of those things and personal responsibility be damned. As a result, they are ill-prepared for the responsibilities of early adulthood.

In my own situation, it wasn’t money that made the difference (I literally received a grand total of $200 from my dad after turning 18). It was the attitude and world-view of my parents that made all of the difference. Same with my sig other. Her dad was a janitor with an eighth grade education and they had even less money than we did. But, Ms. Sven’s mother emphasized school, hard work, savings, etc., etc. and that made all of the difference for Ms. Sven (and she benefits from that to this very day). Family money and connections are simply not essential to get into school, to get through school, and to start on a productive career.

So, I think you’re right in the sense that it’s not the kids’ fault (ever read “Lord of the Flies”?). It’s society’s fault.

Fri, 2007-07-13 13:37

#74

Fidel

[url=http://www.nasfaa.org/publications/2007/economicsofuniversalpostsecondar... Economics Of Universal Postsecondary Education[/b](USA)[/url]

quote:

"The days of 'cherry picking' the best workers from a large oversupply are gone," Jones explains. "The math, science, technology challenges of the future cannot be met by increasing a few more top performing students, but only by increasing the overall base of students prepared for the new jobs of tomorrow."
[b]Through the Eyes of an Economist[/b]
Research shows that a universal postsecondary education policy benefits everyone. Randall Eberts, Executive Director of the Upjohn Institute, recently outlined the economic benefits of an educated workforce at a town-hall meeting, Education and Michigan's Economic Future.
[LIST][*] A 1% increase of college graduates in a region's workforce increases wages by 1.3% [*] A 1% increase in the share of college graduates increases the number of patents by 0.9% [*] An increase in the percentage of people with bachelor's degrees of one standard deviation (about 23 parts per thousand) increases per capita income by 1.4 percent[/LIST]

Fri, 2007-07-13 17:24

#75

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Sven:
[b]
In my own situation, it wasn’t money that made the difference (I literally received a grand total of $200 from my dad after turning 18). It was the attitude and world-view of my parents that made all of the difference. Same with my sig other. Her dad was a janitor with an eighth grade education and they had even less money than we did. But, Ms. Sven’s mother emphasized school, hard work, savings, etc., etc. and that made all of the difference for Ms. Sven (and she benefits from that to this very day). Family money and connections are simply not essential to get into school, to get through school, and to start on a productive career.
[/b]

Right, Sven, so the rent you were paying your parents to live at their home was at market value? And you bought your share of the food of course? And your own clothes? Did you have a car? How and what did you pay for your car when you were going to college, if your lawn-mowing and sunflower field money was for tuition? You mentioned you did a lot of sports. How did you buy your sports clothes and equipment with your odd-job money that was for college?

And how many thousands did you save up while in school full time, and paying tuiotion and rent and food and buying clothes and gas and parking and car maintenance? This is not even including furniture (since, presumably, you didn't need any, living at your parents), or god forbid, entertainment - since young folks hate entertainment and socializing. You suggested earlier that it shouldn't be too hard for a full-time student to save up $10,000 while they're in school. Were you able to do this, while paying market-value rent to your parents?

Fri, 2007-07-13 17:38

#76

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Fidel:
[b] Mowing lawns is such a good trade now that it looks an even surer thing than a college education after the banks and middlemen mafia types are paid off.[/b]

yeah, $20 an hour in small town Minnesota! And you can't beat the customers off you! Come to think of it, there's a business opportunity for College Painters... branch into lawnmowing, hire a team of college students who are too stupid to get their own lawnmowing gigs at $8 an hour, you clear $12 for every hour they work! Cool. Who needs college?

Fri, 2007-07-13 18:45

#77

Fidel

That's right! What the world needs more of now are entrepreneurial types - workers to go out and work for a living - and lot fewer [url=http://67.15.182.229/piggybankpinko.html][b]piggy bank pinkos[/b][/url] loitering around college campuses. Education is for commies!

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:03

#78

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
[b]
Right, Sven, so the rent you were paying your parents to live at their home was at market value? And you bought your share of the food of course? And your own clothes? Did you have a car? How and what did you pay for your car when you were going to college, if your lawn-mowing and sunflower field money was for tuition? You mentioned you did a lot of sports. How did you buy your sports clothes and equipment with your odd-job money that was for college?
And how many thousands did you save up while in school full time, and paying tuiotion and rent and food and buying clothes and gas and parking and car maintenance? This is not even including furniture (since, presumably, you didn't need any, living at your parents), or god forbid, entertainment - since young folks hate entertainment and socializing. You suggested earlier that it shouldn't be too hard for a full-time student to save up $10,000 while they're in school. Were you able to do this, while paying market-value rent to your parents?[/b]

Sorry to disappoint you, jas, but I didn’t live at home in college (like I said above, we lived in a small rural farming community of 2,000 near the Canadian border—no college there—and I went to university in Minneapolis). So, I was paying market rent in Minneapolis (except that one year, I took care of a 91 year old man, I lived with him, shopped and cooked for him, played checkers with him, etc., and, in exchange, I lived with him rent-free—through a social service program for the elderly.

Also, I didn’t get my first car until after I graduated from college. I schlepped around on buses, biked or walked.

And, yes, of course, I worked in college. Took me one extra year to complete my undergraduate degree.

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:11

#79

Sven

jas, you have such hostility and anger about personal initiative. Why is that?

It's as if a bunch of people work hard and succeed and that makes another bunch of people look lazy for not working as hard and look like beggars for demaning funding from the first group. Can't have that, now can we?

Give money to the truly needy. But, for 90% of middle class students, they can work and don't need to suck on the public teat and have everything handed to them.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:36

#80

jas

I stand corrected. Looks like you did everything right, Sven. You saved $7500 over seven years doing odd jobs to go away to school, you worked while in school (as most people do) to pay your other costs, you found a free rent situation for one of those years (is American college the same thing as a Canadian university? 4 year bachelor programmes?) and you didn't drive a car. Life is sweet.

Something tells me there's some missing information here, unless going to college in the U.S. is much cheaper than we thought, or was, back in the '80's. Suffice to say that paper routes and lawn-mowing do not a college education buy. Maybe the sunflower roguing and the municipal job helped you out a fair bit, since, as you say, you had lots of time to play sports and goof off. I'm even losing track of what I'm arguing with you anymore. Oh yes, it's the smug, judgemental generalizing about "most" kids today, in Canada, that you've drawn from your own particular untroubled circumstances from the 1970's, in Minnesota.

So anyway, how much money were you able to sock away while working and attending college?

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:41

#81

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
[b]So anyway, how much money were you able to sock away while working and attending college?[/b]

It was socked away into tuition and living expenses. I think that in my last year of college (22 years ago), annual tuition and fees were about $2,500 per year.

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:49

#82

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
[b]Oh yes, it's the smug, judgemental generalizing about "most" kids today[/b]

The counter generalization is that most people today have it really tough, like it's the 1930s or something.

And, saying kids "should" being doing one thing or another is "judgmental". The extreme societal tendancy to avoid just that leaves us with young people like jrose (see her post above) not knowing anything about work and savings until they get to college and, at that point, don't have anything saved and not the foggiest clue about how to start.

But, I suppose you'd prefer that in order to avoid being "judgmental"?

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:51

#83

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Sven:
[b]jas, you have such hostility and anger about personal initiative. Why is that?
It's as if a bunch of people work hard and succeed and that makes another bunch of people look lazy for not working as hard and look like beggars for demaning funding from the first group. Can't have that, now can we?
Give money to the truly needy. But, for 90% of middle class students, they can work and don't need to suck on the public teat and have everything handed to them.
[/b]

I have nothing against personal initiative. I also got myself through school, with only $5000 debt at the end, but taking almost a decade to complete it (well, I took my time). I'd comment however on your un-ironic use of that notion further, but not tonight.

As far as the 90% of middle class students "sucking on the public teat" I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know anyone who has got out of paying their student debts without claiming bankruptcy - and that's pretty rare. A student loan in Canada is a contract between the student and the bank. There's no public teats that I know of.

Fri, 2007-07-13 19:57

#84

Sven

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
[b]As far as the 90% of middle class students "sucking on the public teat" I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know anyone who has got out of paying their student debts without claiming bankruptcy - and that's pretty rare. A student loan in Canada is a contract between the student and the bank. There's no public teats that I know of.[/b]

The actual cost of school is heavily subsidized by the state. And, are there no public grants or subsidized state loans, or are all non-student sources of funds supplied by banks, unsubsidized?

Yet, many complain (ala Fidel) that there is a "crushing burden" of debt with "twenty five years of indentured servitude" that poor students have to endure in order to get a college education in Canada. My point is, it's not that tough. Not easy, takes a lot of work, but it's not slavery.

Fri, 2007-07-13 20:01

#85

jas

quote:

The counter generalization is that most people today have it really tough, like it's the 1930s or something.

Well, it's not the 1970's either. Get to know the difference.

quote:

It was socked away into tuition and living expenses. I think that in my last year of college (22 years ago), annual tuition and fees were about $2,500 per year.

Oh, you mean you didn't sock away $10,000? Like you suggest others do? Even with that cheap, cheap $2500/yr. tuition?

quote from above:

quote:

Earn $10,000 for tuition while in school and you're left with $7,500 in debt.

Fri, 2007-07-13 20:03

#86

Sven

You're taking this quote out of context: "Earn $10,000 for tuition while in school and you're left with $7,500 in debt."

I was talking about today's tuition, not tuition in the 1970s.

Learn to tell the difference, eh?

Fri, 2007-07-13 20:09

#87

jas

Fair enough. I'm glad at least you're admitting that there [i]is[/i] a difference monetarily between the 1970's and the 2007's.

Fri, 2007-07-13 21:28

#88

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Sven:
[b] My point is, it's not that tough. Not easy, takes a lot of work, but it's not slavery.[/b]

Oh, they've actually broken it down into average time to repay student loans. A couple of years ago, average repayment schedules for student loans was something like 15 years for males and over 17 years for females. Time is money, and Canadian interest rates on student loans are the highest in the developed world. That's a point already made by Canadian student groups as well as advocates for affordable education in Canada.

If reports are saying it takes 17 years to payoff student loans [i]after[/i] they've graduated and earning higher pay, then what must it be like saving that kind of dough mowing lawns, pulling McNight shifts or donating their blood for donuts and a bit of copper, Sven?. There comes a point when the wheels fall off your anecdotal evidence wagon.

It's a different set of issues today for PSE funding and student loan debt burdens that did not exist 15 or 20 years ago. The universal higher education piece I linked to explains that the U.S. is having a tougher time stealing foreign-educated best and brightest. Canadian governments and companies are complainining about a lack of skilled workers at the same time.

After years of autocratic government in Canada, we've got infrastructure deficits, a doctor shortage, and we still haven't broken into the top ten most competitive economies, like those countries where higher education and job training funds haven't been used as general slush funds to pay down humungous national debts dinged up by conservative governments here and conservatives practicing Keynesian-militarism slash upside-down socialism for the rich in your country. And the U.S. has dropped from first to second down to sixth place for ECGI on Dubya's watch. Student loan debt has only risen for the last several years not fallen. The red coats are coming, Sven. Heads up.

[ 13 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Sat, 2007-07-14 18:26

#89

Digiteyes

quote:

Originally posted by jas:
[b]Just a question, Sven: were girls mowing lawns, working for the municipality and roguing sunflower fields in your day? Were kids from the poor side of town doing this? If they weren't, what great, easily-found jobs were [i]they[/i] doing to earn [i]their[/i] college tuition?
Or were these just the "extreme" cases in your town? Or maybe they were "lazy"?[/b]

Yah, we females were also working.
I had a paper route.
I babysat, I worked in retail part time.
I got full time summer jobs from the time I was 15 on. So did my brother; so did my sister.

It wasn't unusual in the '60's or the '70's.

Sat, 2007-07-14 19:15

#90

Fidel

quote:

Originally posted by Sven:
[b]
The actual cost of school is heavily subsidized by the state. And, are there no public grants or subsidized state loans, or are all non-student sources of funds supplied by banks, unsubsidized?[/b]

No, and, No. PSE is heavily subsidized in countries like Sweden, Finland, and Norway where that country's Petroleum Fund is worth $292 Billion USD today. Compare that with Alberta's lowly Heritage Fund at a measly $16 billion. Added to Canada Pension reserves, Norway's PF is still worth a lot more. And so will Russia's oil stabilization fund, created in just 2004, be worth more than CPP and Alberta's oil slush fund combined by the end of this year.

Socialist Norway can afford universal education. Socialist Norway has well-funded socialized medicine. Socialist Norway has a national daycare program.

Canadians are being rrrrrrripped off by the two old line stoogeocratic parties on the take in this country while our natural resource wealth is siphoned off to the corporatocracy south of us. Our colonial administrators couldn't run a lemonade stand without effin it up.

And your country, Sven?. If they could just stop spending so many taxpayer billions on Keynesian-militarism slash upside-down socialism for the rich year-in and year-out, you'd all be well away.

Thu, 2007-07-19 11:51

#91

Fidel

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/rabblerabble/interest.gif[/img]

quote:

. . . student loan borrowers are currently subject to interest rates that are more than double the government's actual costs of
borrowing . . .

[url=http://www.studentloanfairness.ca/documents/CSLF-CSL-Report-July032007-E... pdf[/url]

They have to try and make it up somewhere for what they don't collect from big energy companies in green taxes and corporate profits leaving the country every day.

[ 19 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Thu, 2007-07-19 15:24

#92

Summer

I know this thread is a continuation of another, but I'm unclear on what posters want: no tuiton? lower tuition? lower interest on student loans? no interest on loans?

I believe that tuition increases should be limited to the amount of inflation, and that loans should be interest free for at least one year post-graduation. I also would be interested in seeing some kind of sliding scale for tuition where the better you do, the less you pay and conversely, the worse you do, the more you pay. Although, I do realize that there would have to be a separate system for students with disabilities. I do not support free tuition.

My experience with financing university is similar to Sven's. I graduated from a 4 year BA program in 2003. My tuition was around $5000/yr. I worked part-time every school semester and worked full-time every summer. I lived in residence in first year and later in an apartment with 3 roommates. I had about 12 grand in scholarships and 5 grand saved up from summer jobs from high school and babysitting (to date I have yet to mow a lawn). I graduated debt free and with 8 grand in the bank (which was subsequently spent on law school).

Thu, 2007-07-19 15:45

#93

Fidel

If countries like Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, Turkey, Germany, Norway and Finland can provide freely accessable higher education to their citizens, and while at the same time not possessing nearly the same amount of oil and natural gas and electrical power siphoned off to the U.S. on the cheap, then I think Canada can do better.

And some of those countries with a dearth of natural resources listed above are actually more economically competitive than natural resource-rich Canada, fossil fuel inflated GDP and all.

Not only are tuition fees for post-secondary in Canada some of the highest in the world, Canada is now experiencing shortages of family physicians to the tune of 500 per year. Aspiring doctors frequently cite high interest payments on student loan debt as a deterrent to becoming a family physician over the course of 12 years of education, training and interning before practicing and earning higher incomes.

Tue, 2007-07-24 07:27

#94

jas

quote:

Originally posted by Summer:
My experience with financing university is similar to Sven's. I graduated from a 4 year BA program in 2003. My tuition was around $5000/yr. I worked part-time every school semester and worked full-time every summer. I lived in residence in first year and later in an apartment with 3 roommates. I had about 12 grand in scholarships and 5 grand saved up from summer jobs from high school and babysitting (to date I have yet to mow a lawn). I graduated debt free and with 8 grand in the bank (which was subsequently spent on law school).

I think it's great that a high school kid can save up $5000 for university. I'm not convinced it's typical, because it certainly means that the parents or caregivers are supplying everything else for the child while he or she does the summer job and saves. Except for treeplanting, I don't remember finding summer jobs that would allow me to save more than a few hundred dollars by the end of summer. And by the time I was treeplanting, I was moved out and paying my own living expenses. It wasn't a "summer job".

Scholarships are definitely a huge help. I'm not sure why I never applied, as my GPA was certainly more than adequate. I think some kids feel that they won't be eligible, so they don't even ask or research. Again, some kids need help with these things - and not everyone gets the scholarship.

Tue, 2007-07-24 09:01

#95

Fidel

There are thousands of kids being denied student loans every year. And it's not because they lack the merit or scholastic ability. They just don't have thousands of dollars required to access what was once considered a basic human right in this Northern Puerto Rico with massive, absolutely massive amounts of fossil fuels and hydro-electric power being siphoned off by the Yanks while Canadian politicians are on the take.

Tue, 2007-07-24 09:13

#96

jeff house

quote:

They just don't have thousands of dollars required to access what was once considered a basic human right

From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
(ratified by Canada in 1947):

Article 26

quote:

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

[url=http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html]http://www.un.org/Overview/rights...

So, it's still a basic right. Getting from words to deeds is the problem.

Tue, 2007-07-24 10:12

#97

Fidel

If the issue was another tax break for foreign-based energy conglomerates taking our valuable stuff off our collective hands, they'd be all over it like blue on sky.

Tue, 2007-07-24 10:44

#98

no.use

wow, never thought I'd see a thread on babble saying students should effectively go fuck themselves and that tuition and loan payments are somehow "fair" [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

I did undergrad + grad degree, currently owe $60000 in loans + $10000 in credit card debt. All to work in public service for the rest of my life.

Tue, 2007-07-24 11:18

#99

jeff house

quote:

wow, never thought I'd see a thread on babble saying students should effectively go fuck themselves and that tuition and loan payments are somehow "fair"

The "thread" doesn't actually say anything. It is individual posters who say something. Just about anyone can drop into babble and say something nonesensical, but babble shouldn't be blamed.

I have no doubt that the progressive position is that tuition for university is way out of line, an insult to Canada's democratic values.

I think lots of other babblers think the same thing.

Tue, 2007-07-24 11:36

#100

no.use

quote:

Originally posted by jeff house:
[b]
The "thread" doesn't actually say anything. It is individual posters who say something. Just about anyone can drop into babble and say something nonesensical, but babble shouldn't be blamed.
I have no doubt that the progressive position is that tuition for university is way out of line, an insult to Canada's democratic values.
I think lots of other babblers think the same thing.[/b]

sorry ...yes Jeff, I agree. Most of it seemed to be coming from just one regular poster, who even felt the need to open a second thread to get his opinion across. Anyways, I guess most of it is frustration out of trying to balance my current life with student loan debts + rent/utilities and the generally expensive to live in TO.

Tue, 2007-07-24 11:39

#101

jrose

Closing for length.

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