Israel does not 'deal with ' those issues petsy, thats jsut crap.
Those states might have those problems, but they do not affect Israel nor does Israel ever attempt to deal with them. They should , however, deal with their own stripping for civil rights for those people within their borders that they consider 'sub human' apparently
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
[b]If it were, that would be a huge problem. Thankfully it is not though it has to deal with neighboring states who routinely deny women their rights, summarily murder gays and lesbians, do not permit Jews their civil rights, denigrate Christians. Indeed it is a tough neighborhood.[/b]
Petsy, if you were to learn that the owner of a retail chain offers scholarships to Syrian soldiers would you boycott and encourage others to do so?
quote:
If it were, that would be a huge problem. Thankfully it is not though it has to deal with neighboring states who routinely deny women their rights, summarily murder gays and lesbians, do not permit Jews their civil rights, denigrate Christians. Indeed it is a tough neighborhood.
See some people think it is difficult to rationalize racism and murder. It isn't. You just use racism to rationalize murder. Easy!
I remember the KKK and lynch mobs would routinely accuse black men of rape and petty crimes to justify their racist brutality. Different region but the song remains the same. Thanks for reminding me why the boycott is so important.
quote:
Originally posted by Continually sleepy:
[b]
Since earlier you stated that you oppose all kinds of violence, I'm not quite sure what kind of defence you are making reference to.[/b]
So here we can get into a circular arguement about whether the rockcet attacks came first, or whether the leveling of Palestinian houses, encroachment of settlements and racist government policies came first. Both side are to be abhored and condemned.
The difference here is that Israel is in a far better position to stop their actions as a democratic structured government. The palestinians as shown recently, don't have a single point of control over their territory and people and are in a far more difficult place to stop the rockets that small fanatic groups build.
If someone has a good idea how to stop small bands of people, I'm all for it, but asking a government to start abiding by UN resolutions tends to be a lot easier.
So, Rabble is boycotting Chapters-Indigo because the owners contribute to a fund that “provides scholarships to former “lone soldiers” of the Israeli Defence Forces”. Makes sense to me. Why bother helping these young men (and women, too, I suppose) get an education and perhaps learn to think differently about the world? After all, any young person joining the Israeli army is obviously a lost to the Dark Side, and offering them help to get an education is tantamount to joining forces with evil, no? And look at the poor Palestinians. With half a century and a gazillion dollars, you can’t really expect them to have built a functioning social infrastructure! Of course there are shortages of everything there, except guns and explosives. First things first, after all. And, of course they needed to turn their universities into terrorist training camps – what else would they do with them? Now, if those Israelis would just let them have their way, then everything would be hunky-dory. Fatah and Hamas would kiss and make up and the anti-Semitic textbooks would disappear from Palestinian classrooms.
I really think you’ve got a fantastic idea here. Your only problem, really, is that you are thinking too small. Why not get something going on a larger political scale? Maybe a UN resolution against Chapters? We can’t have anyone educating former Israeli soldiers, for God’s sake! Why, this could lead to “directly supporting the morale of the IDF”.Horrors!
True, your campaign could lead to ‘directly supporting the morale of terrorists”, bigots and anti-Semites everywhere, but that’s surely a small price to pay in order to keep those former soldiers out of school.
quote:
Originally posted by LDW:
[b] And look at the poor Palestinians. With half a century and a gazillion dollars, you can’t really expect them to have built a functioning social infrastructure! [/b]
The only way my people have survived for so long is by learning to live with all other peoples, respecting them, sharing weal and woe with them, sympathizing with and supporting their struggles.
Your comments about the Palestinian people shows quite clearly either your anti-human upbringing, or (more likely) the mess you have made of your own brain and feelings all by yourself.
Either cure yourself of these racist feelings, or take your ravings elsewhere. This is not a toxic waste dump.
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]Petsy, if you were to learn that the owner of a retail chain offers scholarships to Syrian soldiers would you boycott and encourage others to do so?[/b]
Heather and Garry are strong, proud Jews who are helping former IDF soldiers get an education. There is nothing wrong with that.
This boycott is like the proposed academic boycott of Israel by the UK universities. It smacks of anti-semitism.
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]The only way my people have survived for so long is by learning to live with all other peoples, respecting them, sharing weal and woe with them, sympathizing with and supporting their struggles.
Your comments about the Palestinian people shows quite clearly either your anti-human upbringing, or (more likely) the mess you have made of your own brain and feelings all by yourself.
Either cure yourself of these racist feelings, or take your ravings elsewhere. This is not a toxic waste dump.[/b]
To Unionist – Right on! Right on! Couldn’t have said it better myself! The Palestinians are Powerless Victims! True, they may support the odd suicide bomber or rocket attack and they educate their children to hate but that’s not their fault, surely! Anyone can see that there is absolutely nothing the Palestinian leadership could possibly ever have done to set up a functioning societal infrastructure, with schools and hospitals. If the corrupt leadership couldn’t dole out social services as favours to their supporters, how could anyone ever expect them to hold onto power? And the Palestinians have always been ready to “share weal and woe”…of course, by weal, they mean ‘A ridge on the flesh raised by a blow; a welt’ and not ‘Prosperity and happiness’ but at least they’re sharing, right?
But getting back to the main topic, an important step that we in the West can take towards making a better world is to boycott anyone who dares to try and offer education to former Israeli soldiers. I mean, we have to put our collective feet down somewhere!
It certainly does Moishe.
Good lord. Did our site suddenly pop up on [url=http://giyus.org/]some megaphone software[/url] today or what?
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]Heather and Garry are strong, proud Jews who are helping former IDF soldiers get an education. [/b]
"Strong, proud Jews"?
First of all, Jews are reputed to have a little bit of seykhel. If Heather and Garry had any seykhel, they would provide these pathetic idiots with an education [b][i]before[/i][/b] they volunteered to go kill Palestinians - not after!
What kind of Jews are they who can't figure out that much!?
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Good lord. Did our site suddenly pop up on [url=http://giyus.org/]some megaphone software[/url] today or what?[/b]
You seem surprised that people here would support Israel. Why?
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
[b]Babble will do nothing that in any way supports or gives credence to the Jewish state of Israel.[/b]
That's just wrong. "Babble" is a discussion forum, and is all of us.
As to why the rabble book lounge is boycotting Chapters/Indigo, that's a valid topic for debate, and is being debated.
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]before they [b]volunteered [/b] to go kill Palestinians - not after!
[/b]
Now you are being ignorant. They were draftees, not volunteers. National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over the age of 18. Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two, sometimes less.
These are the people you would deny an education.
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]Now you are being ignorant. They were draftees, not volunteers. National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over the age of 18. Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two, sometimes less.
These are the people you would deny an education.[/b]
Why should Canadian taxpayers subsidize the education of Israeli soldiers? (Heseg is a registered charity in Canada meaning donations to it are tax-deductible)
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b][url=http://www.rabble.ca/reviews/review.shtml?x=60448]Read it here.[/url][/b]
[url=http://www.bds-palestine.net/]And here: Find out about the International Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Campaign here:[/url]
quote:
These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall;
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality;
I see that, although I have my doubts about academic boycotts.
quote:
and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.
Is rabble seriously supporting "broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era" until Israel implements a right of return that no one believes will happen? I think Hindus are more likely to return to Pakistan first.
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]Now you are being ignorant. They were draftees, not volunteers. National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over the age of 18. Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two, sometimes less.
These are the people you would deny an education.[/b]
You really don't know what Heseg is - or you just want to fool people - which one?
Heather and Gerry's website is different in Hebrew and English. I would imagine, from your "name", and your story about being "a Kibbutzim", that you don't speak a word of Hebrew, so let me enlighten you.
[url=http://www.heseg.com/page.asp?id=1]Here[/url] is what it says (I hope the orthography works ok):
quote:
קרן "הישג" היא קרן מלגות לחיילים בודדים משוחררים.
"Hayalim bod'dim" means [b][i]Lone Soldiers[/i][/b].
These are foreign recruits - volunteers - who have no family in Israel. Read about them in [url=http://www.mahal2000.com/press/040822/lonesold.htm]English[/url], if that's the only language you can understand.
Amazingly, the [url=http://www.heseg.com/page2.asp?id=8]English version[/url] of the same website speaks only of "former soldiers" - [b][i]it does not use the term "lone soldiers"!![/i][/b].
So someone who can't read the Hebrew original might actually think that these lucky scholarship recipients are Israelis - maybe even conscripts. [b]They are not - by receiving money from these billionaires, they become mercenaries.[/b]
Nu, "Moshe", vus macht a yid?
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]"Hayalim bod'dim" means [b][i]Lone Soldiers[/i][/b].
These are foreign recruits - volunteers - who have no family in Israel. Read about them in [url=http://www.mahal2000.com/press/040822/lonesold.htm]English[/url],
[/b]
You are so wrong my friend.
They are Jews who have an inalienable right to return to Israel, and out of love and caring for Israel they do so. But once they do return to Israel they are subject to National Service.
Get it, my friend? Once a Jew returns to Israel, he or she must participate in National Service, provided they meet the religious and age requirements. Is that clear?
Once their service is complete they may go on to other things, and an education will help them greatly. An education provided in part by Heather and Gerry.
So you admit they are all foreigners who voluntarily come to Israel to serve in the army. Before you claimed they were "conscripts". But no one conscripted them to go to Israel.
These are thugs - people seeking thrills and violence. One hundred years ago, even 60 years ago, one could have imagined youthful misguided idealists. But in the 21st century?
They are war criminals. And because they are all volunteers, they cannot even repeat that man's infamous excuse (yi'mach sh'mo v'zichro) - "I was just following orders".
ETA: By the way, has anyone else noticed that the Heather and Gerry Show have deleted the term "Lone Soldiers" from the English version of their website? This is amazing - they must be reacting to the boycott and trying to deceive international audiences - just like our muddled friend Mr. Feinstein is trying to do, so far having to eat his words every time he utters anything.
[ 14 July 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]These are thugs - people seeking thrills and violence. One hundred years ago, even 60 years ago, one could have imagined youthful misguided idealists. But in the 21st century?They are war criminals. And because they are all volunteers, they cannot even repeat that man's infamous excuse (yi'mach sh'mo v'zichro) - "I was just following orders".
[/b]
So, in your world view, Jews who exercise the Right of Return are thugs and war criminals? What bullsh*t you spew!
You go on and on about how they are 'foreigners'. No, they are Jews who have returned home. Home to Israel. They are and will always be Jews first. What part of this do you not understand?
All Jews are Israeli? Isn't that, like, anti-semitic? What if a Jew doesn't want to be Israeli? Does he or she have a choice in your world? Can an Arab be an Israeli?
[ 14 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]All Jews are Israeli? [/b]
Absolutely not.
Did you know that there are some Jews, in Israel, who do not believe that Israel should exist at all? It is true. They believe that no state will ever be as powerful as G*d when it comes to protecting the Jews, and that having a state of Israel is therefore an afront to G*d himself. They wish to place the fate of the Jews, and Israel, entirely in the hands of G*d.
Now, not very many Jews in Israel or elsewhere agree with this strategy, however it does make sense. If you believe that G*d wants Israel to survive, why bother with a state at all? G*d will smite the enemies and all that.
But no one takes them very seriously.
Whew! Gee, I was worried about that. What about this:
quote:
They are Jews who have an inalienable right to return to Israel
So, a Jew, born and raised in Toronto, by atheists, can return to Israel and have citizenship? Boy, that is generous. What about a Palestinian who fled Israeli during the Nakba. That person would have an inalienable right to return to Israel, too, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]
You go on and on about how they are 'foreigners'. No, they are Jews who have returned home. Home to Israel. They are and will always be Jews first. What part of this do you not understand?[/b]
Parts I don't understand:
Why you don't believe Jews can be at home in Canada or other countries.
Why you yourself have never gone "home" to Israel.
Why you lied about Heseg being for "conscripts". Why you danced and pranced when your lie was exposed. Come to think of it, why the Schwartz/Reisman billionaire duo is now trying out the same lie as you.
Why you thought no one on this board could read Hebrew.
Why you yourself can't read Hebrew (some "Jew" you are!).
And finally: What you are doing on this board, other than being a (singularly unsuccessful) provocateur.
Chapters & Indigo stores do not raise funds for HESEG (HESEG is a foundation set up for educational scolarships to FORMER soldiers), it has absolutely nothing to with the bookstores or the employees of this company. What you're talking about is a wealthy successful couple in Toronto, who have chosen to spend their hard earned money to support a cause that some disagree with. Having been fortunate enough to be born and raised in a democracy, I actually don't see the problem, for though I don't agree with their apparent political views, I respect their right to have them (don't forget, there are financial supporters on both sides of this conflict ). Should you be denied the right to donate YOUR hard earned money the way you see fit? I've seen signs in Toronto that say "END ISRAELI APPARTEID" and protesters wearing Palestinian scarves, well, quite obviously they are biased towards the Palestinian side of the struggle, has anyone followed them home to protest their right to their opinions/beliefs? And last I checked, this is not a new situation, Reisman and Schwartz are not directly responsible for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Nor do I think a University fund is going to add to the atrocities that have already been committed on both sides, perhaps the newly educated recipients of this fund will help resolve the issues that plague the middle east.
Oh and you're right OHARA! Mt. Sinai's emergency room does not generate revenue for Reisman/Schwartz so feel free to enjoy the medical care provided there should you need it. Onyx and Indigo generate funds, which allows them to PERSONALLY/PRIVATELY (as with HESEG) support the hospital, breast cancer research and numerous other worthy causes.
So what does the company actually support? Has anyone heard of the Indigo Love of Reading fund? In three years Chapters, Indigo, and Coles have managed to raise 4.5 million dollars for Canadian school's that were in desperate need of books and learning materials. The lives of the children and teachers of these schools have dramatically altered for the better as a result!
If you hadn't guessed by my name, I work in one of Heather Reisman's bookstores and am proud to be an Indigo employee. I'm saddened that people would rather spend their time standing outside a bookstore (which as far as I have witnessed, has only angered the majority of the people approached by protesters AGAINST this boycott) and reinforcing the disunity than in seeking a means to resolve a situation abhorred by all.
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]Parts I don't understand:
[/b]
And never will...
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]So, a Jew, born and raised in Toronto, by atheists, can return to Israel and have citizenship? Boy, that is generous. What about a Palestinian who fled Israeli during the Nakba. That person would have an inalienable right to return to Israel, too, right?[/b]
Well, in order to be considered a Jew in the eyes of G*d, many things must have taken place. Here is a long description of who is considered to be Jewish. It is very accurate.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F]Wikipedia[/url]
Now, to answer your question. Yes, any Jew has the right to return to Israel at any time and live there for the rest of his or her life, should he or she choose to do so. Even a Jew raised by Athiests, provided that the articles of faith had been adhered to.
As for Palestinians displaced by conflict, that is a great controversy in Israel. Should they all return to Israel, along with their descendants, Israel would lose its Jewish majority. This may not seem to be very important in the West, but for Jews it would be very hard to bear.
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]
You go on and on about how they are 'foreigners'. No, they are Jews who have returned home. Home to Israel. They are and will always be Jews first. [/b]
Why don't you go "home", Feinstein?
Don't feel like being a "Jew first"?
What comes first in your book?
Fear of the draft?
The biggest Zionist hypocrites have always been the foreigners, who raise money and egg on the Israeli youth to do their fighting for them.
Oh, sorry, Heather and Gerry. I don't mean you! You wouldn't raise blood money to encourage young people to lay down their lives in unjust wars! Naw, you're nice nice people! You're just buying books for Afghan Canadian schools which are in desperate need of supplies, according to the rather bizarre account of your alleged loyal employee above.
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b][/b]
Yawn...
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]Yawn...[/b]
Tired already? You just joined babble. My people have been fighting for their survival for thousands of years. We don't get tired.
You said Jews' "home" is in Isr**l. What the H*LL are you doing in M*nit*ba? Hitchhiking to Isr**l?
No wonder you're tired.
Oh, Uni*nist, you [i]are[/i] being a naughty boy.
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Oh, Uni*nist, you [i]are[/i] being a naughty boy.[/b]
I am naught.
quote:
Originally posted by bookseller2321:
[b]Chapters & Indigo stores do not raise funds for HESEG [/b]
True, they raise money for Heather Reisman, the principal founder and funder of HESEG. Or are you suggesting that Reisman runs Chapters/Indigo as some sort of non-profit and doesn't derive any income from it?
quote:
Should you be denied the right to donate YOUR hard earned money the way you see fit?
Works both ways. We have the right *not* to spend our money as we see fit. If people choose not to shop at Chapters/Indigo because of what its owner does with the money she earns from our patronage then what's wrong with that?
[ 14 July 2007: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]
Moshe, what I derive from Jewish history is the belief that one should fight against all oppression, racism and xenophobia and for the equality of all. There's a very proud history of Jews joining, and in many case leading, broad struggles fighting for against injustices far beyond the Jewish community and for the liberation of all.
I think it's tragic when some fail to take these lessons and instead try to replicate the very forms of oppression that Jews have fought so hard against; using the very means that have oppressed Jews for so long and turning them against other populations.
I don't see how any person of good conscious who believes in human rights can think that someone whose family has not lived in Israel for 2000 years has the right to return there while someone else who was born there and fled as a child; or whose parents or grandparents were born there, does not have that same right. How can that sort of contradiction possibly be justified in the context of universal human rights?
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]Whew! Gee, I was worried about that. What about this:So, a Jew, born and raised in Toronto, by atheists, can return to Israel and have citizenship? Boy, that is generous. What about a Palestinian who fled Israeli during the Nakba. That person would have an inalienable right to return to Israel, too, right?[/b]
Israel was created to make a place for people who had nowhere to go. After the war of 1948, about 500,000 Arabs were displaced from Israel and about 900,000 Jews were displaced from surrounding Middle Eastern countries, where they had lived for centuries. Israel took in every Jewish refugee who asked and gave them citizenship. The surrounding Middle Eastern countries, who started the war, took in no one. They left the displaced people in refugee camps. Those who remained in Gaza and the West Bank have now grown in number to about 4 million, and the entire 'Palestinian' population world-wide numbers approximately 10 million. The Jewish religion is older than the Muslim religion, and Jews have lived continuously in the Middle East for over a thousand years. But the only country that they can now call home is the tiny strip of land created to be modern-day Israel.
I say that when the surrounding Middle Eastern countries return the lands and property they stole from the Jews, and when they let Jews return to their ancient homelands and be given full rights of citizenship and be allowed to live freely and without fear, that perhaps Israel could become a bit more sanguine about having larger numbers of Arabs living as citizens within their borders,
The Palestinians, to date, and most of the Middle Eastern countries surrounding Israel have done little to foster peace, and have despicable domestic records concerning human rights.
And, to Unionist – It’s probably a bit complicated for you to understand, but you see, Israel has mandatory military service for all men and women (Arab citizens are not obliged to serve) and so any young adult returning to live in Israel knows they will have to do their mandatory military service. They volunteer to go to Israel, but are conscripted into the army once they become residents. It is possible to view them as both volunteers and conscripts, because they do the original, voluntary act of moving to Israel, knowing it will lead to their conscription.
Also to Unionist – the bookstore employee who wrote a post said absolutely nothing ‘bizarre’. You, on the other hand make irrelevant comments and hurl insults instead of making cohesive arguments. You say your people have been fighting for their survival for thousands of years and you don’t get tired. Too bad – because you are certainly tiresome in a nasty, puerile, illogical sort of way.
The solution to the fear of persecution is to fight for proper refugee laws so that Jews who fear being persecuted can come to Canada or the United States or Europe. Instead, we saw in the 80s various North American Jewish and Zionist organizations lobbying North American governments to deny Soviet Jews refugee status so that they would have no choice but to go to Israel!
quote:
As for Palestinians displaced by conflict, that is a great controversy in Israel. Should they all return to Israel, along with their descendants, Israel would lose its Jewish majority. This may not seem to be very important in the West, but for Jews it would be very hard to bear.
Oh, no, I can understand that. Many whites feel exactly the same way in the West. They want to establish a separate white state. Sort of like a separate Jewish state. Certainly in Europe one nation attempted to create a racially pure state with terrible consequences.
quote:
Israel was created to make a place for people who had nowhere to go
Well, that is perfect. Because Palestinians, as you have aptly indicated, have nowhere to go. So they can go home to Israel. See, everything works out.
[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
quote:
[b]As for Palestinians displaced by conflict, that is a great controversy in Israel. Should they all return to Israel, along with their descendants, Israel would lose its Jewish majority. This may not seem to be very important in the West, but for Jews it would be very hard to bear.[/b]
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
[b]Oh, no, I can understand that. Many whites feel exactly the same way in the West. They want to establish a separate white state. Sort of like a separate Jewish state. Certainly in Europe one nation attempted to create a racially pure state with terrible consequences.[/b]
But isn't this the same model as First Nations, membership (or citizenship) based on racial background?
[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]
Well, yes. And currently Israel is attempting to push Palestinians into ghettos not unlike the marginal lands first nations were pushed into. Or to push them out all together. Some even advocate genocidal policies: [url=http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%... to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets.[/url]
So, what are you saying, FM? Is race-based citizenship of a nation okay as long as the nation doesn't otherwise behave badly?
Personally, I think the "Jewish" state of Israel will ultimately cease to exist. Demographically, non-Jews will eventually outnumber Jews (unless, prior to that time, Israel implements very rigid standards for Israeli membership that requires a citizen to be a Jew).
quote:
Originally posted by LDW:
[b]
They volunteer to go to Israel, but are conscripted into the army once they become residents. It is possible to view them as both volunteers and conscripts, because they do the original, voluntary act of moving to Israel, knowing it will lead to their conscription.[/b]
That is sophistry. They go to Israel for the sole purpose of performing military service right away. Here is your "logic" in another form:
[i]I signed up voluntarily to join "Soldiers of Fortune". Once in, I had no choice but to go where they sent me and follow orders to the letter. So you see, I can be viewed both as a mercenary and as a conscript.[/i]
quote:
[b]Also to Unionist – the bookstore employee who wrote a post said absolutely nothing ‘bizarre’.[/b]
Oh really? In a debate as to whether it is good to finance Canadian youth who volunteer to go fight for the IDF, this "bookstore employee" says:
quote:
In three years Chapters, Indigo, and Coles have managed to raise 4.5 million dollars for Canadian school's that were in desperate need of books and learning materials. The lives of the children and teachers of these schools have dramatically altered for the better as a result!
S/he's not talking about Sierra Leone or Afghanistan here, but Canada, where the last time I checked we had publicly funded universal K-12 education.
Perhaps "bizarre" is not the right word. This tangential diversion into Indigo's "charitable" endeavours was naive - gullible - suckholing one's employer? Please feel free to choose a more appropriate adjective.
quote:
[b] you are certainly tiresome in a nasty, puerile, illogical sort of way.[/b]
I restrict my comments to the things people say, rather than characterizing the people. I challenge defenders of faiths to justify themselves. That's why I spent a lot of time dismantling the lie that Heseg was a scholarship fund for former Israeli soldiers (it isn't - it's for foreigners who volunteer for the IDF [b]only[/b]).
That's also why I challenge you, and other obvious defenders of this activity, to explain why Heather and Gerry have changed their English website in a way that can actually fool people like Mr. Feinstein into believing that Heseg isn't just for mercenaries. Read the Hebrew, and please explain the contradiction.
Of course Chapters Indigo is not a non-profit organisation! What I'm saying is that Chapters has thousands of employees, who work hard for their wages every day, and there is not a single thing that we do in our daily work that has anything to do with HESEG. So when you're out in front of the stores screaming about injustice and tellig customers how evil we are, you're not protesting the bookstores, you're ultimately protesting Heather's inalienable right to spend her money as she chooses. (I would like to restate the fact that HESEG is a university fund!!! It does NOT buy guns, promote violence or destroy small canadian publishers!)
You ABSOLUTELY have the right NOT to spend your money where you choose, what I take issue with is a protest where protesters are misinforming the public, where customers are told how THEY should be spending their money and are leaving the stores and being harrassed ( -a constant complaint from their own mouths ....which btw has only made them more loyal).
Hypothetically, if a kid who works at MacDonalds sends a couple of bucks to HESEG a month would you be out protesting MacDonalds? That's where he earns his money and makes the same choice Heather does, of course you wouldn't because it would have nothing to do wih MacDonalds how this kid spends his money!
And not to seem slow or anything, but it was brought up earlier that Gerry, being Heather's husband and also someone who donates to HESEG hasn't had to comment on protests outside of movie theatres.....I'm guessing there's too many summer blockbusters to see so Gerry's movie business can't be protested at the moment eh?
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]But isn't this the same model as First Nations, membership (or citizenship) based on racial background?
[/b]
The same model would be if the colonizers of the Americas set up a state with citizenship based on racial or ethnic background.
The difference with the First Nations is the question of self-determination and oppression. If they wish to have a racially exclusive model on their own land, that is their choice (I think it's a lousy one, but I understand it, and most importantly, it's not my business to interfere). If, however, they deprive other races or ethnicities of their inherent human rights, they lose their own.
Likewise with Israel. The majority of the state currently constituted as Israel chooses to have a Basic Law founded in the religio-ethno-cultural form loosely known as Judaism. [i]That is their right[/i]. Likewise, it is my right as a human being (and, secondarily, as a Jew) to publicly state my opinion that that model is offensive and repugnant to enlightened human culture.
However, when Israel deprives some of its residents (forget about the Occupation and wars of aggression for the moment) of equality, of human rights, of the right of refugees to return, of the right to social and civil ceremonies that are not religious-based, etc. - then Israel must be condemned. And it is condemned, by the international community.
Does that mean the international community would be justified in marching into Israel (if they were so inclined) and bringing about "regime change", to "free" the people from Zionist tyranny? Absolutely not. That is the prerogative of freedom-loving nations like the U.S., U.K., Canada, the former Soviet Union, etc. Stopping aggression and occupation - yes. Overthrowing regimes that treat people like shit - the people have to do that themselves.
Boycotts, embargoes, diplomatic measures? By all means, where and when warranted.
[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[b]If they wish to have a racially exclusive model on their own land, that is their choice (I think it's a lousy one, but I understand it, and most importantly, it's not my business to interfere).[/b]
Why do you think it's a "lousy" one?
quote:
Oh, no, I can understand that. Many whites feel exactly the same way in the West. They want to establish a separate white state. Sort of like a separate Jewish state.
This comparision of a Jewish state to white supremacism should be unacceptable here on Babble. There may be some passionate disagreements on Israel but when you cross this line moderators MUST intervene. What is happening here??
[img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
[b]Why do you think it's a "lousy" one?[/b]
It's the subject of another thread. I believe people should all intermarry as fast as possible and abandon any differences which divide them rather than enrich them. Just a personal little hangup of mine. But I certainly respect those who feel that they should stick with "their own". I just don't share their feeling.
Now look what you guys have done. You've made ohara wring his hands and ask with a plaintive cry for the umpteenth time what is happening on babble. This is a truly tragic turn of events.
Clearly it is time for the moderator to step in and close the thread for length, out of respect for ohara's deep agony.
[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
