Well not feeling sorry for this one
Sun, 2007-07-22 21:07
#1
Well not feeling sorry for this one
Sun, 2007-07-22 21:07
#2
[url=http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_13095.aspx]Burgular falls to death when surprised by the apartment's owners[/url]
Mon, 2007-07-23 03:18
#3
I am. The kid was 16. And it's a horrible way to die. No one deserves to die for being a robber.
Mon, 2007-07-23 04:52
#4
Exactly, sure, it's an unexcusable act for a child, that deserves punishment, but hardly death. Especially in the case of a CHILD.
Mon, 2007-07-23 04:59
#5
If you read the article it seems he was trying to escape as the owners had come home unexpectedly. He's no hardened criminal if he tries to climb down the balcony because a woman and her two daughters come home. The kid must have been terrified.
Mon, 2007-07-23 05:06
#6
Good point. It seems like not a lot of information about the case has been released yet, but I can only imagine some of the problems that this kid might have faced in his short 16 years. Sure, by 16, people have developed a keen sense of right and wrong, but this might have been all this kid knew, with few people or services to steer him in the right direction. I think it's sad, because he had his whole life ahead of him, and plenty of time to make a turn-around.
Mon, 2007-07-23 07:03
#7
I feel sorry for the actual victims in this case, not the perpetrator. How are they ever supposed to feel safe in their home, now that it has been violated? What about the mental and emotional anguish they might be suffering, maybe even wrongly blaming themselves for this young hood's demise?
Mon, 2007-07-23 07:20
#8
I feel bad that he died a horrible death, but I don't really feel sorry for him. I'm thinking of a mother coming home with young daughters and finding a male stranger in her home. I'd be terrified of being raped and murdered.
Mon, 2007-07-23 09:27
#9
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]I feel sorry for the actual victims in this case, not the perpetrator. How are they ever supposed to feel safe in their home, now that it has been violated?[/b]
People get over stuff. My family, my neighbours, my friends - we've all had people break in to our homes at some point in our life times, and as far as I can tell, none of us feel unsafe in our "violated" home. Simple alarm systems and reinforced door frames will do wonders for helping to secure a victim's peace of mind.
We are a resilient people. We overcome.
Mon, 2007-07-23 09:40
#10
Pogo
Come on now everyone knows that things (and feeling secure about your things) trumps lives.
Mon, 2007-07-23 09:45
#11
Lard Tunderin Jeezus
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b]I feel sorry for the actual victims in this case, not the perpetrator. How are they ever supposed to feel safe in their home, now that it has been violated? What about the mental and emotional anguish they might be suffering, maybe even wrongly blaming themselves for this young hood's demise?[/b]
Has the 'Wiz' here ever posted anything at all progressive (as opposed to his regular hateful and reactionary contributions)?
Mon, 2007-07-23 10:10
#12
Well had the owners killed him or the cops then I would have felt sorry for him. No one deserves death as a punishment for theft. But it was his own direct actions that did it though at 16 thats just tragic sinc ehe did have his whole life ahead of him and he chose to waste it in this way.
Mon, 2007-07-23 10:27
#13
I wrote a whole post about this but I am too disgusted to bother.
Mon, 2007-07-23 10:32
#14
Like the Wiz, I also feel sorry for the family who came home and saw that. How awful - both the feeling of invasion, and then the horror of seeing someone fall 26 storeys to their death.
What I don't understand is why it's an either-or thing. Can't people feel bad for both the people whose home was invaded AND the kid who died in such an awful way? Is empathy finite or something?
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:00
#15
saga
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Like the Wiz, I also feel sorry for the family who came home and saw that. How awful - both the feeling of invasion, and then the horror of seeing someone fall 26 storeys to their death.What I don't understand is why it's an either-or thing. Can't people feel bad for both the people whose home was invaded AND the kid who died in such an awful way? Is empathy finite or something?[/b]
And is security a reasonable thing to expect given the huge rich-poor discrepancy? We all know that creates conflict and crime. I think, if we continue to support the corporate system that creates the discrepancy, then we have to be willing to accept that it comes with conflict and reduced security.
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:03
#16
What I don't understand is why people feel sorrier for the family who have been "traumatized". To those people I say, you don't think this kid had family? You don't think his mom is grieving over the loss of a son? A young one at that?
I am as disgusted as Scout is by the people who think this kid somehow deserved it.
Oh and BTW, people die every day by doing stupid things - smoking, eating too much etc. I suppose when they die you figure - too bad! and forget they too had people who loved them.
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:04
#17
Makwa
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
[b]But it was his own direct actions that did it though at 16 thats just tragic sinc ehe did have his whole life ahead of him and he chose to waste it in this way.[/b]
How incredibly callous. I guess you smirk at people who die in bungie jump or sky diving accidents too.
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:08
#18
For all we know, this kid was a victim too, of any number of things that could have gone wrong in his past. Nobody here is condoning his actions, but hell, a lot of great young people make huge mistakes, and grow up to make excellent contributions to the world.
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:08
#19
I might be completely wrong about this, but being familiar with the housing in that area, particularly the high rises, I have my doubts that the people who lived in that unit were members of the corporate elite. Now, I might be wrong and it might be a luxury condo, but generally that would be referred to as a "condo" rather than an "apartment".
I don't think we have to make this into a big thing where the apartment dwellers were the class enemy and the burgler was a noble Robin Hood tragic figure. The most likely story is empathetic enough, and sad all around.
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:24
#20
I wonder how this conversation would be different if the headline were "45 year old man falls from 26 storey building in an attempted burglary..."
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:29
#21
3.8 seconds. That's how long it would take for this young man to fall to his death. 3.8 seconds for him know that he is able to die because of a single dumb choice he made that day. Doesn't sound like much, but count out 4 seconds while you picture yourself falling to your death. I bet that 3.8 felt like forever.
I feel sorry for him.
Mon, 2007-07-23 11:59
#22
*shrugs* I dont see it as callous. Here we regular say "glad hes dead" or "he choose his fate so hes scum" on any number of people from Ratzinger to Reagan.
Everyone has someone who mourns their death and everyone can suffer because of their own actions. Its a tragic waste and traumatic to the apartment owners.
Mon, 2007-07-23 12:06
#23
This is a 16 year old kid, not a homophobic bigoted and by proxy murderous priest. He is also far from a Ronald Reagan. And this has nothing to do with class. It has to do with thinking a 16 year old kid who fucked up deserved to die.
That is callous. Everyone's kids fuck up at some point. Mine has. I have. Should I and others have had a horrible fate awaiting us because of that? If we did would we have desreved it? Many kids, you included, made mistakes when you were a kid. Do you figure it would be okay for the kid to get the death penalty because he robbed this place? Because that is pretty much the same thing eh? He would have deserved that right?
Okay I'm out of this one. I am pretty mnuch disgusted.
Mon, 2007-07-23 12:13
#24
*shrugs* If you can judge someone for their actions at 14 as opposed to just his actions as an adult, then whats different here?
I feel no glee at his death, just not feeling all that sorry for him though I would feel a great deal less if he had been 45 as jrose suggested. His age makes it a waste, not the act and result
Mon, 2007-07-23 12:16
#25
quote:
*shrugs* I dont see it as callous. Here we regular say "glad hes dead" or "he choose his fate so hes scum" on any number of people from Ratzinger to Reagan.
Everyone has someone who mourns their death and everyone can suffer because of their own actions. Its a tragic waste and traumatic to the apartment owners.
A) I like to think we don't all freely run on making such vapid statements such as those and
B) When it comes to making statements about Reagan etc. etc., we can back up these statements with dozens of instances.
You are assuming the worst here, that this is a bad kid. We don't know the facts here, and there is no need to fill in those blanks. This kid made at least one mistake, probably more, but as of now, not enough information has been released in regard to this case, or to the individual to jump to such conclusions.
Mon, 2007-07-23 12:19
#26
Good point jrose. I stand ready to be convinced at any time. In fact I would like to see more information about this
Mon, 2007-07-23 12:47
#27
God. I'm suprised that anyone with any human feelings at all, or anyone with the presumption to post to a progressive forum, would rejoice at the death of a child who made a mistake.
When I was a kid I never broke into a home, but I committed some minor teenage type crimes. If I had met the wrong person who taught me how to break into apartments, I might have done that if I thought there was no chance I would do physical harm. It would be very easy to panic, and try to get away on the balcony.
So this unfortunate child has died after only 15 years of life. All I can feel is empathy and sorrow for so much missed life, and the hole it leaves in the lives of those who loved him.
RIP
Mon, 2007-07-23 13:02
#28
quote:
Originally posted by Banjo:
[b]God. I'm suprised that anyone with any human feelings at all, or anyone with the presumption to post to a progressive forum, would rejoice at the death of a child who made a mistake.
[/b]
I'm not rejoicing, but I'm not crying either. That kid would never have been in that situation if he did not choose to do the break-in. That is no cause for joy, but I'd still have no sympathy for him if he had survived the fall.
Mon, 2007-07-23 13:29
#29
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]You are assuming the worst here, that this is a bad kid. We don't know the facts here...[/b]
Well, uhhh, he [i]had[/i]just commited an un-lawful entry, and was stealing someone else's belongings. Sounds like a bad kid to me.
Still, I'm not happy that he fell to his death. I'm not particularily sad either, in the same way I don't get sad when I hear about a fatal accident on the 401. More of a, 'Gee that's too bad. What's on the agenda for today's meeting?' type of feeling.
If people got really sad over every single tragedy they heard about in the course of a year they'd go crazy.
Mon, 2007-07-23 13:35
#30
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
[b]
I'm not rejoicing, but I'm not crying either. That kid would never have been in that situation if he did not choose to do the break-in. That is no cause for joy, but I'd still have no sympathy for him if he had survived the fall.[/b]
In my life I can largely avoid contact with people with this mean spirited attitude to other human beings, and their human failings. No such luck here where they want to infest a progressive forum.
Mon, 2007-07-23 13:41
#31
Catchfire
Actually, Moshe and Gir are exactly right. This man (let's not kid ourselves into thinking he was a child--he could drive, right? Or at least earn a learner's permit!) broke the law! If you break the law, you forfeit all claims to empathy, to hope, to fears, to a change in mindset, to family, to love. That's why we have the death penalty--or should! It's hard to believe that only one Western country realizes it's the best way. Because breaking the law is a simple [i]choice[/i], and if you make that choice, [i]even once[/i] you're not worth a damn. Not a goddamn thing.
When I hear of a single person getting killed on the highway because of a bad decision, it breaks my heart every single fucking time. Keep shrugging, though. It's keeping your world from falling down.
Mon, 2007-07-23 13:47
#32
Gee, that's a surprise Gir!
Mon, 2007-07-23 13:59
#33
remind
Catchfire, I am certainly hoping you are being sarcastic!
Mon, 2007-07-23 14:21
#34
I *heart* you Catchfire! Amazing post.
Remind, massive sarcasm. We are talking about Catchfire afterall.
Mon, 2007-07-23 14:24
#35
Sure he is, burglery isn't usually considered worthy of a death penalty outside the goofy self righteous right. Not even cruelly humourous or ironic like some of the Darwin Award winners are.
Mon, 2007-07-23 15:02
#36
Technically though Gir is correct, anyone who breaks the law becomes by definition a criminal and therefore no longer a citizen. According to the Bible though, that doesn't mean we lose our humanity; Joshua was quite clear about that one. When I think about it for a few seconds it's really just dumb luck that any of us are allowed to walk the streets past the age of thirty, so a big thank you from me to God for his and hers lax and inconsistent enforcement.
Mon, 2007-07-23 15:09
#37
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
[b]Technically though Gir is correct, anyone who breaks the law becomes by definition a criminal and therefore no longer a citizen. According to the Bible though, that doesn't mean we lose our humanity; Joshua was quite clear about that one. When I think about it for a few seconds it's really just dumb luck that any of us are allowed to walk the streets past the age of thirty, so a big thank you from me to God for his and hers lax and inconsistent enforcement.[/b]
He isn't technically correct, nor are you. You are not no longer a citizen if you break the law. If that was true, no one would be a citizen. Everyone has broken the law at some time.
Even if you are a criminal that is serving time you are still a citizen, assuming you are a citizen before you broke the law, in every sense of the word.
Mon, 2007-07-23 15:23
#38
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
[b]When I hear of a single person getting killed on the highway because of a bad decision, it breaks my heart every single fucking time. [/b]
This is not to belittle you or your heart, but really, every single car accident where someone is killed breaks your heart? I mean, there are a lot of deaths by car accident every day in Canada, not to mention around the world. How do you cope? Again, I'm not mocking you, but such sensitivity is unfathomable to me.
Personally, if I had your sensitivity, I'd avoid completely TV, radio, Internet, newspapers, and probably just stay inside and become a hermit. That would be easier than living with the pain of having my heart broken every 20 minutes.
Mon, 2007-07-23 15:35
#39
quote:
Originally posted by ouroboros:
[b]He isn't technically correct, nor are you. You are not no longer a citizen if you break the law. If that was true, no one would be a citizen. Everyone has broken the law at some time.
Even if you are a criminal that is serving time you are still a citizen, assuming you are a citizen before you broke the law, in every sense of the word.[/b]
Yes, we have all broken some law at some time or other, that was my point, but no, I don't think people behind bars are generally considered citizens, what's a right to us is a privilege to them. Being able to walk free is pretty much a prerequisite of citizenship IMV, even if our reformed criminal acts do put certain time limits and rules on incarceration now. In the States even the right to vote can be removed for life now, if you committ even a minor felony. Especially if youre black or likely to vote Democrat. In many States you can also have your right to life summarily removed, and half the population want the same up here.
Mon, 2007-07-23 15:45
#40
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
[b]
This is not to belittle you or your heart, but really, every single car accident where someone is killed breaks your heart? I mean, there are a lot of deaths by car accident every day in Canada, not to mention around the world. How do you cope? Again, I'm not mocking you, but such sensitivity is unfathomable to me.
[/b]
Does pathos always follows irony or is it visa versa? Of course we can't weep for every bad thing that happens to everyone in the world, but you know, we can refuse to revel in others tragedies, even ones we don't respect, and one close look at any bad accident and I believe most of us do get a bit nervous and queezy if not upset. After slowing down to look of course. Lucky it doesn't happen every day or we might not show up to work at all.
Mon, 2007-07-23 15:56
#41
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
[b]Does pathos always follows irony or is it visa versa? Of course we can't weep for every bad thing that happens to everyone in the world, but you know, we can refuse to revel in others tragedies, even ones we don't respect, and one close look at any bad accident and I believe most of us do get a bit nervous and queezy if not upset. After slowing down to look of course. Lucky it doesn't happen every day or we might not show up to work at all.[/b]
Sure, I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think anyone here has 'revelled' in his death. At worst, some people just don't care about it.
Mon, 2007-07-23 16:45
#42
Cared enough to post it and defend his indifference though. Not like the Bacchus I recall (vaguely) so maybe he's just suffered through one too many breakins himself.
Mon, 2007-07-23 20:50
#43
I think I see where Moshe is coming from, although I'm not saying Catchfire is wrong either.
I don't get broken-hearted over all the accidents I hear about either - as Moshe says, if I did, I'd be depressed all the time.
But every once in a while, some story hits me. This was one of them. Maybe because I occasionally have nightmares about my son falling from a great height (we lived in a highrise when he was little).
And I find that now that I'm a parent, stories about children often hit me harder than they used to before I became a mother, especially when the child is around the same age as my son.
It's natural to feel detached from tragedy that doesn't touch your own life, but it's also natural to be touched by some stories more than others.
Tue, 2007-07-24 06:07
#44
Catchfire
Well, Moshe's masculinist and stouthearted sentimentality-mocking aside, there is a difference between detaching oneself from tragedy and claiming that the victims deserved it because they were breaking the law. I would argue that tragedy affects all human beings, it's only that we need to digest it in different ways. I can deal with heartbreak, I manage myself quite well. But when people deal with it by telling themselves that the victims [i]deserve[/i] it, especially for something as frivolous as a juvenile B&E, well that's just not [i]on[/i].
Tue, 2007-07-24 21:04
#45
Stuff happens. It's just the way life goes.
Tue, 2007-07-24 22:24
#46
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
[b]If you break the law, you forfeit all claims to empathy, to hope, to fears, to a change in mindset, to family, to love. That's why we have the death penalty--or should! It's hard to believe that only one Western country realizes it's the best way. Because breaking the law is a simple [i]choice[/i], and if you make that choice, [i]even once[/i] you're not worth a damn. Not a goddamn thing.[/b]
There is no room between killing teenage criminals and completely sympathizing with them? Damn.
Wed, 2007-07-25 07:51
#47
When I read stories like that..I don't think "oh the bad kid deserved to die because he was alleged to be burgularizing a dwelling".
I think ..what caused a 16 year old to do this in the first place? Could it be his parents are so over taxed by a crooked "take yer money before you see it system" they couldn't afford to buy him what other kids have.
Could it be he was suffering from learning difficulties caused by perhaps too much lead in his system causeing him to misjudge his step or take the wayward route. Or maybe another government approved toxin was eating away at his brain.
I look at the social reasons..that's where the crux of the problem lays. As far as death penalty's for simple burglary. If that was the norm their wouldn't a single politician alive today. And half the workforce would be dead (stealing on the job).
Well at least he didn't die in vane like those canadian soldiers that kill woman and children at night while they sleep , on bombing runs. Yes nato has killed more innocent babies and children thatn the dreaded taliban has.
No this kid will at least get some discussion on why he deserved to die unlike other kids.
Wed, 2007-07-25 08:53
#48
Something I bear in mind when I see this sort of thing is that when I was a teenager I was involved in B'n E's a bit. Actually, I never would have done residential, just because there were things I'd do and things I wouldn't, and peoples homes was under things I wouldn't. There was other high risk behaviour too, which is what I think was the point for me. Frankly, I made more money peddling hash, and one or two little scam things I had going for a bit. This was interspersed with actual honest work. (just to keep my hand in I guess)
Anyway, there were reasons I was doing this at the time I suppose, and I didn't deserve to die even through stupid misadventure.
Just to add, it was a stage. I don't do that sort of thing anymore.
.
.
.
.
Really
Wed, 2007-07-25 09:51
#49
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Like the Wiz, I also feel sorry for the family who came home and saw that. How awful - both the feeling of invasion, and then the horror of seeing someone fall 26 storeys to their death.What I don't understand is why it's an either-or thing. Can't people feel bad for both the people whose home was invaded AND the kid who died in such an awful way? Is empathy finite or something?[/b]
Remeber the guy who shot the little Amish girls in their schoolhouse and killed himself?
The Amish community embraced both their own, and reached out to the perpetrator's family. To truly "Love Thine Enemy" is one of the most profound ethical acts possible. There's plenty of tragedy to go around on this one.
I know a lot of people who did some pretty dangerous, stupid and positively criminal things in their teen years. Some of them are very successful as adults. The kid did a wrong thing, but let the punishment fit the crime.
Wed, 2007-07-25 09:55
#50
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]I wonder how this conversation would be different if the headline were "45 year old man falls from 26 storey building in an attempted burglary..."[/b]
I'd say much the same thing. I don't think trying to rob a house (and fleeing when someone came home and he had ample oppurtunity to hurt them) is worth a death sentence. The punishment must fit the crime, and in this case it doesn't. Moreover, you can't really "learn your lesson" if you're dead. I'd prefer he were alive and had to face the people he wronged and live with his punishment.
Wed, 2007-07-25 13:23
#51
I feel bad for the kid, the people who loved him, and the family whose house was broken into. I don't really care what the kid did - there are no innocents - it's just a sad end. A kid is dead, what does it matter what bad things he may have done in his life? Who cares what punishment any of you would like to have seen him suffer?