Salary, gender and the social cost of haggling
Mon, 2007-07-30 10:13
#1
Salary, gender and the social cost of haggling
Mon, 2007-07-30 10:13
#2
[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20030873/]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/200308...
Salary, gender and the social cost of haggling
Research shows men are more aggressive than women in asking for a raise
By Shankar Vedantam
Updated: 3:53 a.m. ET July 30, 2007
Washington Post
Excerpt:
quote:
WASHINGTON - About 10 years ago, a group of graduate students lodged a complaint with Linda C. Babcock, a professor of economics at Carnegie Mellon University : All their male counterparts in the university's PhD program were teaching courses on their own, whereas the women were working only as teaching assistants.That mattered, because doctoral students who teach their own classes get more experience and look better prepared when it comes time to go on the job market.
When Babcock took the complaint to her boss, she learned there was a very simple explanation: "The dean said each of the guys had come to him and said, 'I want to teach a course,' and none of the women had done that," she said. "The female students had expected someone to send around an e-mail saying, 'Who wants to teach?' " The incident prompted Babcock to start systematically studying gender differences when it comes to asking for pay raises, resources or promotions. And what she found was that men and women are indeed often different when it comes to opening negotiations.
There are strong counterarguments in the second half of the article.
******
I believe that this is research paper cited by the article:
[url=http://tinyurl.com/ypv8jz]http://tinyurl.com/ypv8jz[/url]
Title: Social incentives for gender differences in the propensity to initiate negotiations: Sometimes it does hurt to ask
Authors: Hannah Riley Bowles, Linda Babcock and Lei Lai
Abstract: Four experiments show that gender differences in the propensity to initiate negotiations may be explained by differential treatment of men and women when they attempt to negotiate. In Experiments 1 and 2, participants evaluated written accounts of candidates who did or did not initiate negotiations for higher compensation. Evaluators penalized female candidates more than male candidates for initiating negotiations. In Experiment 3, participants evaluated videotapes of candidates who accepted compensation offers or initiated negotiations. Male evaluators penalized female candidates more than male candidates for initiating negotiations; female evaluators penalized all candidates for initiating negotiations. Perceptions of niceness and demandingness explained resistance to female negotiators. In Experiment 4, participants adopted the candidate’s perspective and assessed whether to initiate negotiations in same scenario used in Experiment 3. With male evaluators, women were less inclined than men to negotiate, and nervousness explained this effect. There was no gender difference when evaluator was female.
*****
I sometimes wonder why female friends will insist that I or one of the guys call the waiter, ask directions of the bus driver, place the order over the phone, et cetera. A differential in social incentives might help explain it.
[ 30 July 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Mon, 2007-07-30 12:24
#3
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]
I sometimes wonder why female friends will insist that I or one of the guys call the waiter, ask directions of the bus driver, place the order over the phone, et cetera. A differential in social incentives might help explain it.
[/b]
I've started to notice that a little more lately as well. Especially with the waiter thing. Not that it is common but that it never happened before at all and now I see it. Of course, I was married for a long time to an independent woman but some of the people who prefer it now are independent women in their own right (professional, single, successful, etc).
I don't really get it but maybe the article is pointing to something that I wasn't necessarily aware of before.
Mon, 2007-07-30 12:33
#4
Whoops, didn't read carefully enough. I like that the study doesn't just focus on whether or not women take the initiative, but also on how they are received by employers when they do.
[ 30 July 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Mon, 2007-07-30 13:18
#5
The study three has happened to me. My female bosses would not put up at all with compensation negotiations.
Mon, 2007-07-30 13:32
#6
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Whoops, didn't read carefully enough. I like that the study doesn't just focus on whether or not women take the initiative, but also on how they are received by employers when they do.[ 30 July 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ][/b]
I've seen so many studies get mangled by the mainstream media. I feel that when discussing an article on a study, one should make an attempt to take a look at the original study. MSM will often get things wrong either by incompetence or by maliciousness. In this case though I don't think they did too bad a job... if you read the whole thing.
Mon, 2007-07-30 14:40
#7
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
[b]The study three has happened to me. My female bosses would not put up at all with compensation negotiations.[/b]
I'm wondering if this has to do with women having such different experiences in the corporate world than men do. If women go through their careers not asking for raises, or being rebuffed when they do, whereas men are receptive to requests for raises from men, then perhaps this might explain why, when women are in positions of authority, they also rebuff requests for raises.
Sounds like a difference in gender culture in the corporate world to me.
Mon, 2007-07-30 14:49
#8
I think you're absolutely right Michelle. That makes sense.
Mon, 2007-07-30 16:56
#9
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Sounds like a difference in gender culture in the corporate world to me.[/b]
Sounds like the patriarchial societal structure to me, and is just an example of it in the corporate world.
Remember the thread you started regarding feminist/female internet discussion forums and how the male participants were so strident against women,and how they had to close or be marginalized in their own restricted space?
Or we could even use the forums here for another example. Where some men men will not tolerate women being assertive or authorative in their postings and react viscerally against it.
And this is just a similar part of the study's findings as follows:
quote:
Male evaluators penalized female candidates more than male candidates for initiating negotiations...Perceptions of niceness and demandingness explained resistance to female negotiators.
Males perceive females being assertative as being demanding and not nice. It means we do not fit into the societal model/construct they have been indoctrinated into regarding female roles and behaviour.
Tue, 2007-08-07 14:48
#10
My experience is not in the corporate world, but in the academic world. I didn't negotiate any salary increase for my first job. For my second, I negotiated my offer up by about 4%. For my third job, I really went to town, and managed to negotiate up by 17%. I have a female friend who got a PhD a few years ago (in a different discipline) and a job offer at a university in Southern Ontario at $55K. She had a meeting scheduled with the dean, to talk about the job, etc. As the day of the meeting was approaching, I kept telling her that [i]once they make you an offer, you have nothing to lose by asking for more[/i]. At the meeting, after going over the expectations and such, the dean asked, "Is there [i]anything[/i] else we can do for you?" She screwed up her courage and asked for $5K more. Without even blinking, the dean answered, "Done. Anything else?" She was stunned. He didn't even balk. The next time we met for coffee, she told me the whole story, and really thanked me for urging her, repeatedly, to at least ask.
OK, this is just one example. But the initial salary negotiation is possibly the most important salary negotiation you'll enter into: the extra $5K will be $5K + the standard %age yearly increases each year for the rest of her career. In 14 years, she'll be earning $10K per year more than she otherwise would have. And in 28 years, she'll be earning $20K more than she otherwise would have. (I'm assuming salary increases of 5% per year.)
Tue, 2007-08-07 15:42
#11
I didn't ask for an increase at the beginning of my job, but I did bring up the subject of past work experience when discussing my salary with the decision-maker. I'm not sure whether that discussion affected my salary, but I think it's at least possible that the fact that I brought it up might have possibly gotten me started at a higher "step" in my grade range (unionized job). I don't know for sure, of course. But it's always a good idea to at least bring it up, as I think there's always flexibility in where you start, even if your job is unionized with specific salary "steps" to each level. I ended up getting a slightly higher salary than I had the impression I was going to get going into the interview, but I have no idea whether that's because I brought up the subject or not. Maybe that salary was the plan all along.
In any case, that's the first time in my life that I've ever come even slightly close to "negotiating" a salary (and that wasn't really even a negotiation). In all my other jobs, I've just taken what's offered, not realizing that it was "okay" to negotiate.
Tue, 2007-08-07 16:55
#12
I am always amazed how many people (male and female) forget the old saying .... "Ask and you shall receive. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened unto you.”
As a person that hires at a very senior level, I usually do not hire a person (male or female) that does not talk salary and benefits. To me that shows lack of agression and lack of self esteem. I will repeat this is a problem both with males and females.
I had a mentor when I was just out of university that told me the following:
quote:
The world is full of genies waiting to grant your wishes. If we only knew what we’re not receiving because we’re not asking, we’d surely change our behaviour
In the end he said most people do not ask for what they are worth for a couple of reasons:
1st: They are afraid the person they are asking will say no
2nd: They are afraid that they are unworthy of the value they are placing on themselves.
Michelle, I honestly believe your higher starting level was due to your round about way of asking for what you felt you were worth.
[ 07 August 2007: Message edited by: civicduty ]
Tue, 2007-08-07 17:00
#13
Sven
No askey, no getty.
Tue, 2007-08-07 17:15
#14
Cueball
No thinky. No posty. k?
Tue, 2007-08-07 17:15
#15
Polly B
You see it a lot in the oilpatch. The men approach the salary negotations with the attitude of "I don't get out of bed for less than...", while the women here still seem to be accepting and thankful for whatever is offered. And the offer is always, always, less than what the man gets.
Tue, 2007-08-07 17:41
#16
civicduty: Who knows, you may be right!
That said, it's clearly not as simple as "ask and ye shall receive". The point of this study is that women generally DON'T ask, but even when we do, we are more likely to be rebuffed, or thought less of for asking, whereas with men it is expected.