I agree with stargazer.
enlightenment leads to empowerment, to change. If you don't know you're oppressed or part of an oppressed group, how can you change it ? You have to criticize, to educate others to make change happen.The personal really is the political.
I don't have anything backwards. You do. End of discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Pride for Red Dolores:
[b]I agree with stargazer.
enlightenment leads to empowerment, to change. [/b]
Then you don't disagree with me. Read again.
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]I don't have anything backwards. You do. End of discussion.[/b]
I know you are, but what am I?
It's both actually, along life's leraning curve, enlightenment brings empowerment, which brings more enlightenment and more empowerment.
One swimming outfit which shows less skin, and is actually more concerned with comfort than sexiness, is the triathlon suit:
[img]http://www.oceaner.com/images/triathlon4-30.jpg[/img]
[ 12 August 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Exactly! True empowerment would be the ability to feel comfortable in our skin, whatever shape it may be in. True empowerment would be to be ourselves as we are, to view ourselves as we are, as opposed to seeing ourselves through the eyes of the male gaze.[/b]
I like your vision,
But I don't think it possible. I believe reproductive urgers are simply to fundamental to our instincts and behavior as homo sapiens.
Though, maybe with not too much social engineering, we might be able to move closer.
The thing is, I don't think degradation of the female body and sex (sexism) is essential to reproduction.
What I meant is, competitiveness of physique is almost inevitable.
And that has many possible reactions.
[ 12 August 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
That's true enough. Anyone with a gym membership can tell us that.
to clarify, I mean that you have to burn the candle at both ends.
Sexism os something that is intergral to our social system- so integral that its notions are imposed and taught as normal from birth by evereyine around us. You educate yourself (enlightenment) and others, and then things change because then they now what they are doing is wrong.
I don't think that competitiveness of the physique is inevitable- having gone to both a mixed gender gym and a women's gym, I haven't noticed this at all-people tend to mind their own business.
I don't think that being comfortable in your own skin really jives with your ideas of the above.
Doesn't that have to do more with beauty standards that are also sexist and racist -ie degrading? Oppression is written/reflected on the body.
I think there is a fallacy here that patriarchy wants you to wear more clothes, when really in the hyper-sexualized context of the West, it wants you to be as sexualized as possible. Just look at the convergence between soft porn and right wing ideology (Sunshine girl et al).
I believe the West definitely needs some modesty, or at least some sense of shame. The whole sham of cultural superiority is part and parcel of the imperialist project, whether it is objectifying women to sell products or making kids grow up fast so that they can consume sooner. That`s why I think grrl power is just another one of those marketing gimmicks for creating ultra aggressive young women in the same mold as their rude and crude male counterparts. It completely perverts feminism to serve commercial ends.
quote:
to clarify, I mean that you have to burn the candle at both ends.
Sexism os something that is intergral to our social system- so integral that its notions are imposed and taught as normal from birth by evereyine around us. You educate yourself (enlightenment) and others, and then things change because then they now what they are doing is wrong.
I don't think that competitiveness of the physique is inevitable- having gone to both a mixed gender gym and a women's gym, I haven't noticed this at all-people tend to mind their own business.
I don't think that being comfortable in your own skin really jives with your ideas of the above.
Doesn't that have to do more with beauty standards that are also sexist and racist -ie degrading? Oppression is written/reflected on the body.
Thank you for saying this. This (more specifically Beezlebub's assertion that it is up to us to change), really had me thinking of a rebuttal that would make sense.
I can be as enlightened as I want - i.e., I can KNOW that this ad or these clothes are sending such and such a message. The problem is, that just because it resonates intellectually does not mean that in the future, when I or another woman come across something that jars us back into our bodies as spectator's, it won't hit us emotionally.
Take for instance yesterday. Waiting in line for a coffe there was the regular bevy of celebrity rags. The one that caught my attention was glaring the head line "See what stars are battling icky cellulite?"
To these people who think it all has to "come from inside us" I say bullshit. You can be strong for certain periods but when you see parts of your own body reflected in a rag, and those parts being torn down by usually male writers (regardless of the gender, it doesn't matter) shame for your own body is bound to happen. It is inevitable. Why? because again, we live in an extremely sexist society. Men are allowed to grow old, get man boobs, big bellies and grow bald, and still be labeled hot or not discussed at all. While women in their late 30's and older are torn to shreds that they should dare age. They should dare have marks on the bellies that prove childhood. They should dare have "man hands" or they should dare age gracefully. It is a misogynistic world and until this prevailing attitude changes, we are stuck with some form of body hatred.
Secondly, I really really resent a man telling me or any women that the key to getting over this always lies inside ourselves. Bullshit buddy. Until you are a woman, and until you experience what women doe on a daily basis, all freaking day. get back to me. For now I suggest stying out of this thread and listening.
For frigs sake, they even were tearing down young women of 20 who dared not be perfect - surgery, etc. It is horrible to have your body parts on display for the world to see all it's imperfections (which id really just life and genetics) and even worse to be the person looking at those ads who sees themselves reflected there and realizes how much disdain people have for the female body in it's natural form.
Society has to change. There is not a chance in hell we will ever be on equal footing unless this happens, regardless of what some dude in this thread thinks.
I didn't say that it was up to each individual woman to eradicate sexism. Far from it. That would be impossible. It is, however, up to each of us to work on how we react to the negative emotions that others direct at us and those we produce ourselves. As such, the "liberation" you seek will only ever begin within. Until YOU know how not to be negative and controlling (like worrying about what people cover their naughty bits with), you can't tell anyone else how to go about dealing with their shit.
So resent away (and I'm sure you will, by reflex) but first brush up on the ol' reading comprehension.
Why don't you piss off you pompous asshole.
quote:
Until YOU know how not to be negative and controlling (like worrying about what people cover their naughty bits with), you can't tell anyone else how to go about dealing with their shit.
Negative and controlling for pointing out sexism that exists? Seriously stay the fuck out of this forum. I don't want to get a mod here.
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]
The act of pointing out sexism is not itself negative, but your emotional state sure is. Is that MY fault? Or yours? Maybe you can blame society as a nice middle-ground.
As for "controlling": is it necessarily "sexism" when people wish to cover what they deem to be their naughty bits? Is a non-sexist world a world of naked people? This came up in the debate about [i]hijab[/i] in France. People cried "a covered woman is an oppressed woman". Are they? Is not a woman forced to uncover by the demands of secular capitalist ideology also "oppressed" by definition?
You would have everyone uncovered, they would have everyone covered and in the meantime you still can't brook a little bit of contrasting opinion without flying off the handle, calling people names, and painting everything I say in the colours of your own internal state.
Empowered? Hardly: a few questions and a different opinion and you're a marionette. And you expect the people of the world to change if you just "enlighten" them?
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
No, I expect you to act like a decent human being. Which you haven't done. You have stepped your nose into the feminist forum and claimed that I am ashamed or somehow censoring "naughty bits" which is blatantly false.
You are a pompous ass. Whether or not I let my emotion rule this particular moment is my business. It irks me that you, a complete no mind when it comes to reading comprehension, are still here, still trying to pick fights with me.
So again..fuck off. This is supposed to be SAFE forum for women to discuss issues which effect them. Not a forum in which I have to watch my emotions or watch what I post for fear some asshole like you will come along and take advantage of that vulnerability. I've already alerted the moderators.
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]
Alright, alright, alright. This has gone on long enough. This topic has clearly gotten out of hand, but that doesn't mean there is a need for personal attacks, while other people on the board are attempting to discuss this topic calmly, and with respect.
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[QB]No, I expect you to act like a decent human being. Which you haven't done. You have stepped your nose into the feminist forum...
I'm sorry, is this some exclusive territory? Not by Rabble's rules.
quote:
and claimed that I am ashamed or somehow censoring "naughty bits" which is blatantly false.
It would be false if this was my assertion. In fact, I said that the people you are criticising are covering what THEY feel are their naughty bits. I quote myself, "As for "controlling": is it necessarily "sexism" when people wish to cover what they deem to be their naughty bits?"
quote:
Whether or not I let my emotion rule this particular moment is my business.
Finally, you're starting to understand me.
quote:
It irks me that you, a complete no mind when it comes to reading comprehension, are still here, still trying to pick fights with me.
You lead off this bit with an offended/offensive response to one sentence I wrote. Now you've made it my fault for "irking" you.
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
How is it that he is not banned from posting in this thread. Clearly he started the attack against me, and used my posts to attack my vulnerability. He then gets nothing except that this forum should go back to a 'nice' discussion? How can this be a 'nice' discussion when it is one which hits women quite badly and we have this person in here waiting to pounce on anyone who shows emotion regarding the topic?
This is not his playground. It is a place for women's voices. I should not have to be silenced because he chose to ride my ass every post.
I resent that I am supposed to respond to his attacks 'nicely'.
My attacks?
This is your first message to me:
quote:
Actually being comfortable with one's own skin is empowerment. I don't know why you are choosing to be an ass because I don't remember ever offending you.
Already, without even asking what I meant, you called me an "ass" and suggest that I'm out to get you.
Then this:
quote:
This is not his playground. It is a place for women's voices. I should not have to be silenced because he chose to ride my ass every post.
It's a place to discuss issues regarding feminism. There is no "women only" rule. I have responded to you without calling you names, and without suggesting that you be banned/silenced/reported to the moderators, etc. You have been anything BUT silenced.
So, back on topic - why is it necessarily sexism when people wish to cover what they think are their naughty bits?
Is "shame" at the sight of a human body necessarily "sexism"?
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
B.L. Zeebub LLD, I would suggest you stay out of this forum, at least in this thread, and find some other topics to post about. Being provocative will not get you anywhere in this thread.
And Stargazer, I'm not trying to silence you, in the least. All I am saying is try to refrain from name calling in this, or any other thread.
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[QB]B.L. Zeebub LLD, I would suggest you stay out of this forum, at least in this thread, and find some other topics to post about. Being provocative will not get you anywhere in this thread.
I'm sorry, I didn't realise that "being provocative" - i.e. not simply parroting the prevailing opinion in a thread - was against the rules. I've said nothing overtly sexist, racist or otherwise against Babble policy. I was called an "ass" among other things, and have refrained from responding in kind.
All I'm saying is that it is probably best to step back from this argument, in order to make my job easier ( [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] ) and to curtail any further arguments. Choose a forum other than the feminism forum to post in for the next few days, please.
I agree with stargazer, there has been definite dogging and provication that appears deliberate because of the forum it is in. I left the thread because of it and am sick of men trying to be the dominent voices in the feminist forum, or trying to keep things out of the feminist forum that belong here so they can be dominent as always.
It is everey woman's duty to eradicate sexism- and everey man's too. Your argument advocates internal and external change just as mine does. You can't impose liberation on someone, but you can give them the ideas.Real enligntemment means real change in the way a person thinks and acts. Clearly however, there are those who believe in the current order and will never change their minds. Things will change despite them.
Why are these bits "naughty" or shameful ? We're not really worrying how they dress- but why they dress that way. That's not being negative or controlling. Furthermore, how are women in a secualr society forced to bear more than in a non-secualr society more or less oppressed ? The above pictures and examples dispprove this- especially that awsome blog BCG posted. Oppression may be inner, but these bathing suits are an example of how its written on the body.
quote:
Originally posted by Pride for Red Dolores:
[b] Why are these bits "naughty" or shameful ? [/b]
Oh, I know the use of that terminology infuriated me.
quote:
[b]We're not really worrying how they dress- but why they dress that way. That's not being negative or controlling. [/b]
Exactly! Though I do not think he should be engaged in conversation that he was told to stay out of.
quote:
[b]Oppression may be inner, but these bathing suits are an example of how its written on the body.[/b]
Oppression is not only inner.
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]remind and Rosa, and all others who haven't challenged the use of invoking the image and methaphor of a burka as the-most-extreme-way-a-woman-can-be-oppressed-ever, I ask you to think about what it means to say this, believe this, and not to challenge this, and what mainstream assumptions are beneath this understanding.[/b]
I don't think my position is at all that of remind! I didn't say the burka was the most-extrem-way-a-woman-can-be-oppressed-ever! I said (simplifying greatly) that a bikini is just as symptomatic of oppression as a burka.
It is true that I am characterizing both as "symptomatic of oppression" and perhaps you object to that. But I stand by that.
Pardon the late reply. I've been preoccupied.
[edited to remove animated smillie. It was driving me crazy!]
[there! got the damn thing!]
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
[ 13 August 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]
![http://www.oceaner.com/images/triathlon4-30.jpg[/img]](http://www.oceaner.com/images/triathlon4-30.jpg[/img]){kind=link}