Where are the men?

This is the product of North American capitalism. Canada's non-elected corporate leaders influence our elected stooges who are leading us down the path to Americanization and full spectrum submission to an imperialism far more pervasive than the Soviet system ever achieved. Joie de vivre is lacking for too many in this Northern Puerto Rico.

So the point of this story is that black men are bad??

It read like racist drivel to me not feminist insight.

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It's brutally clear that single mothers raising children in low-income housing in Toronto live in a far more violent world than denizens of Riverdale, Forest Hill, the Annex, Leaside or other leafy domains in the city and environs.

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Not at all like the white dead beat dads eh.

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Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b]So the point of this story is that black men are bad??

It read like racist drivel to me not feminist insight.

Not at all like the white dead beat dads eh.[/b]

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Amen to this post. Took the words right out of my mouth.

I was thinking something similar while reading the article. There are just as many white deadbeat parents out there. The fact that many of the women living in poverty in subsidized housing are black doesn't mean that black men are more likely to be deadbeats - it means that women of colour experience more racism than white women when it comes to housing and employment, and therefore black single mothers have a better chance of living in poverty than white single mothers.

I know at least one deadbeat dad. He's a crackhead so I keep my distance. He works under the radar and lives in a busted-down hotel on Last Chance Avenue. In a miserable effort to avoid supporting his children he's managed to ruin his own life. It's just one thing after another. God knows how long he will live. I manage to bestow some kindness on his miserable life once a year around Christmas-time.

It's horrible the way black women are treated because they live in housing and may have more than one kid, but I can assure you, white woman suffer too from the stigma of having more than 1 child and in particular more than 1 child from different fathers. Black women have the added stigma of their colour of course, but this is really a class issue. I was brought up in housing until I was 15 years old. I lived in housing for 2 years as a single parent. The abuse we get treated to is horrible and it comes from all angles - the schools, the parents of the other kids, the society outside our walls.

I can tell you, not many of us, white or black, had the father's child to rely on in any way. Beg, plead for money for food or clothing, or just simply ask that the father spend time with his child. It is an endless source of misery because the women raise these kids, the men screw off, and the women are blamed for how the kids grow up.

It always amazed me how people dump on single female parents as somehow being the scrounge of society (and raising 'criminal' kids) while completely ignoring the fact that maybe, just maybe if the fathers bothered to care, the kids wouldn't be in this position.

Guys get a pass on this all the time. It is time the media and social researchers etc paid attention to the impact of an AWOL father on the kids and stopped blaming the moms who try their hardest.

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Condoms work. No love without the glove. Don the dome. And so forth......
Personally I always use a rubber. Some guys even use 2, cause they say it helps them to last longer.

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WTF?

The trouble with the article is that much is left unsaid which leaves the reader to jump to conclusions. Condoms do work and I have to admit that when I hear of a woman who had children in her teens, I immediately think the child was not planned. But just because I don't want kids yet and certainly didn't want them then when I was in my teens doesn't mean that all women feel the same. This is something I have to remind myself of when I read this kind of article. Obviously everyone has her own lens and is going to interpret things differently in some cases.

Something we do know is that overwhelmingly, single parent families = single mother families. We know that single mothers are more likely to have lower incomes. According to the article, black children are more likely to live in single parent (read mother) families in Canada and it follows from there that black children are more likely to grow up in lower income households.

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The 2001 census says almost half of black children 14 and under live with only one parent, compared with about one-fifth of other children. As well, the census shows that 44 per cent of black children live in low-income households, compared to 19 per cent of other children.

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I feel like I've been hearing a lot about absent fathers recently and usually it's in the context of black families in Toronto (maybe since I'm in Ottawa). I really don't like making this out to be a black problem, as I fear that other races will feel like they have no need to be concerned. I used to work in a community centre in Vancouver and we had lots of low income single mother families from all races (predominantly white IIRC).

So I'll just state the obvious: being a single parent is tough, regardless of race. Until they receive the support they need (government funded quality daycare is a biggy I think), their kids are [i]statistically[/i] going to be at a disadvantage compared to kids with 2 parents. (please note that I did not say automatically or necessarily - this is not a slag on single moms)

So here's my question to Babblers, what's the solution? And my other question is what are the problems (or is there a problem)? Deadbeat dads? People having children too young? Lack of government programs to help single parents? Lack of sex education/access to birth control? Racism? Classism? Sexism? All of the above? None of the above? I would argue that we have to talk about the problem before we can have any dialogue about what, if anything, should be done.

Edited to fix quote

[ 22 August 2007: Message edited by: Summer ]

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Different life experiences driven by the dynamics of race and class have created a historic juxtaposition between the meaning of reproductive freedom for many upper- and middle-class white women and its meaning for many women of color. While white women have demanded freedom from compulsory motherhood, women of color have had to fight for the right to bear children and raise them out of poverty. Thus, there has been an inherent opposition by women of color to the views held by many middle and upper class white women that the campaign for legal abortion is the most important goal in the struggle for women's reproductive autonomy.

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[url=http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/she%20speaks%20intro.pdf]She Speaks: African American and Latino Young Women on Reproductive Health and Rights. (Warning, this is a pdf file)[/url]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Just think about this for a second - when you see a man alone raising a kid, what do you think? Oh what a good father! How could a mother give up her child? But when we see a woman alone with a baby, none of the same reactions are present. Be honest. [/b]

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This is so true. People always ask me what I did to "lose" my son. I didn't do anything. One of us had to have him for more time than the other, and it happens to be my ex. Of course, I'm still very heavily involved in my son's life, so we're not comparing exactly the same thing. But the attitude is there, that if you're a single father, you're some kind of hero (and the reverse, if you're a single mother without custody, you're a pariah), but if you're a single mother, you're a drain on society and probably immoral to boot.

Strangely enough, though, when I was married, people were just dying for me to pop out another one. "When are you going to give him a brother or sister?" "You're only having one? Won't he be lonely?"

I wonder how many Black women or First Nations women get that kind of constant questioning from white friends and acquaintences. I'm guessing not too many.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]

This is so true. People always ask me what I did to "lose" my son. I didn't do anything. One of us had to have him for more time than the other, and it happens to be my ex. Of course, I'm still very heavily involved in my son's life, so we're not comparing exactly the same thing. But the attitude is there, that if you're a single father, you're some kind of hero (and the reverse, if you're a single mother without custody, you're a pariah), but if you're a single mother, you're a drain on society and probably immoral to boot.[/b]

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Of course this is what happens. It happened with me and the mother of my children. Everytime I told someone I was a single parent and that the boys lived with me most of the time I was told how great it was and YUP what a saint. As a guy I am either a deadbeat or a saint and frankly I am neither. The iroinic thing for me was the saint comments came mostly from women that is who kept gushing about how wonderfull I was. The men I know mostly didn't comment.

Now I don't mind kudo's for both me and my boys mother because we have a very good relationship that included family dinners with both our new partners. To us the best interests of the children were the only concern and so we developed a relationship and child care arrangemets that was in keeping with that view.

The question for me what do I do to educate the women who make such remarks? On this board of all places it is obvious even attempting that can be a mine field.

Michelle, I know that the kinds of reactions that you experienced were also experienced by my kids mom. Is there anything I can do?

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]
You know the joke about how some men use babies to pick up women? Well it is true. I know men who borrow other people's kids just to pick up women.
[/b]

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[Off-Topic]
When my sister asked me to watch her puppy black lab (8 months around 60 lbs) last week while she went into the supermarket, I found myself wishing I could get that quantity of attention. , lol.

A friend of ours - single no kids - used to "borrow" my two year old for trips to the park. I thought it was just that he was a terrific guy, turns out he had figured out it was an excellent way to meet women.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]
Honestly kropotkin, I have no idea what you could say to women who put you on a pedestal for being a single father. I'd say relax and enjoy it. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

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I dont think there is anything wrong with the praise that men get for raising their kids.

I do think there is a lot wrong with the praise women don't get for raising kids.

I think society as a whole should work harder to appreciate the work that women continue to do and stop the pattern of taken this pivotal work for granted when done by women.

I know stereotypically in Afro-canadian and African communities alot of respect it given to the mums.

brothers & sisters are always talking,writing, singing and rapping about their Mums.

A great example is the classic west-African song "sweet mother" .

I also agree that the quest for freedom in the white-middle class feminist thought, has ignored the quest of freedom to choose reproduce & motherhood in other cultures.

from your bother from another mother,

[url=http://www.waado.org/Poems/Nigeria/SweetMother.html]Lyrics to Sweet Mother song[/url]

I think these type of debates usually forget certain things.

We talk about "women," but really a lot of these "women" are teenage girls who may have 2 to 3 kids before they're 18. So they got themselves into trouble at a very early age.

They made not have had guidance and were lonely and thought a baby would keep their boyfriend with them. They lack education and once they have their children, crawling out of the hole they are in becomes that much harder; so they are stuck in those situations for years.

When I used to teach at one college, there were a lot of young girls in this situation, but at least those were the ones going to college.

But finding daycare and keeping up work and school was always a challenge. We don't really have supports for that.

I am continually amazed when people express delight that I spend as much time with my kid as I can. What else am I supposed to do? Is the bar so low that any man who doesn't spend his nights getting pissed at the bar and passing out in the flowerbed is some kind of hero?

Anyone raising a child alone is a hero. I'm fortunate not to be in that position, and I can't imagine staying sane if it were to happen.

And the original article is ugly. We see similar stuff about First Nations families all the time.

Incidentally, there are similar numbers of single parent families in the present compared to the 19th century, though at least partially for different reasons.

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Of course, the age gap between the older girls and the youngest still prompts the question "different fathers?" I always feel like responding, "Yes, I HAVE fucked a lot of different men in my life. How about you?" To my mind, that response is no more outrageous than the question.

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I got that alot too because my kids don't look anything alike. To the point that one time a woman felt that it was her right to discuss with me on the bus, that aboriginal women typically are quite free with their bodies and will sleep with anyone they feel like. I couldn't fucking believe it. My traditional upbringing to be polite to stupid people stopped right there and I lit into her. A few people on the bus gave me the thumbs up but most just shook their heads at me. No wonder I'm so goddamn angry all the time!

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My traditional upbringing to be polite to stupid people stopped right there and I lit into her. A few people on the bus gave me the thumbs up but most just shook their heads at me. No wonder I'm so goddamn angry all the time!

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First of all, fucking good for you!

Second that line I love "my traditional...." [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Though thats one tradition it might be better overall if it were to end. Less stupid people making goddamn stupid racist comments.

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Second that line I love "my traditional...."
Though thats one tradition it might be better overall if it were to end. Less stupid people making goddamn stupid racist comments.

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Well, we believe that stupid people are to be pitied, not treated badly, afterall, they can't help that they are lacking in the brains department. Usually we are just kind and then ignore them until they learn to behave properly. But in the big cities, it's kind of hard to do that, so I felt I had good reason to lambaste her. I am sure the grandmothers would have been proud of me.

I'm kind of surprised that a whole angle to this story has been missed. I didn't comment on it back in august, because I thought there'd be better informed babbler's touching on it. But I did do some reading on line to back up what a co worker told me on this subject some time ago.

The issue of lack of father figures in black families, according to some, can be traced back to the days of slavery. In the U.S. slave states and in the Caribbean, more often than not, black men where not allowed to [i]be[/i] fathers, as families were broken up capriciously and maliciously. One study, undertaken not long after the U.S. civil war, noted that this phenomenon was not present in "house slaves" whose families were more often than not left intact in the days of slavery.

I tend to think that there is more than something to this. While some may think that the passage of 150 years is enough to discount the effects of slavery on black families, I would counter that the traditional family in European societies are influenced by values traceable back to the beginning of recorded time. 150 years is but a blink.

Remembering that Africans were extricated from their own traditions, so there was a kind of cultural "lobotomy", and given a new and very dysfunctional "culture" by slave owners, I find it very plausible as speaking to the cause of the problems outlined in the article posted at the start of the thread.

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that aboriginal women typically are quite free with their bodies and will sleep with anyone they feel like.

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Of course, London is next to the Muncey/Oneida/Chippewa on the Thames reserve, so there has always been racist attitudes and incidents here, and continue to be. Just before I entered high school in grade nine, the Board stopped busing all the Native kids to my high school, and instead broke them up into various high schools in London.

We were told a lot of things, all if it crap of course, by older kids as to what to expect from the Native students. But, never did I hear it said that Native girls were sluts, or "free with their bodies". Too this day, when I hear stereotypes and other racist stuff from others in London, I never hear references to that sort of thing.

"Another point of note is the distribution of income in two-parent households. Men often hog most of it (certainly almost all of the disposable income), leaving mothers and children in a form of poverty invisible to the household revenue focus of Statistics Canada (and to tut-tutting malestream journalists)."

This isn't the case in the circles I travel in. Generally, in one income two parent families, the woman takes care of the finances.

Do you have a study to validate this claim?

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]Another point of note is the distribution of income in two-parent households. Men often hog most of it (certainly almost all of the disposable income), leaving mothers and children in a form of poverty invisible to the household revenue focus of Statistics Canada (and to tut-tutting malestream journalists).[/b]

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Any evidence for this claim?