Sexual assaults at Ontario universities
Wed, 2007-09-05 19:48
#1
Sexual assaults at Ontario universities
Wed, 2007-09-05 19:48
#2
School's back in and with that seems to come news of sexual assaults across Ontario:
[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070904.wcarleton04/... Carleton[/url]; [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070905.ASSAULTS05/TPS... and [url=http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=b679e23a-782... U[/url]
I notice that many articles (not necessarily the ones I've linked to) since the weekend have made reference to how last year there were 0 - 1 assaults reported. Of course, we all know here that most sexual assaults are unreported, so this hardly means that it's as rare as school officials would have us believe. Trying to find a positive in all this, I wonder if this recent spat of reports will encourage more people to come forward. I've also been impressed at the media so far which seems to have refrained from making any comments about the women - i.e. what they were wearing, if they were drinking etc.
Also, overall I'm impressed with [url=http://www.protection.uottawa.ca/en/sexaggression.html]this[/url] University webpage, finding it respectful and realistic, without victimizing/blaming women or turning all men into bad guys (I've seen some awful how to avoid sexual assault webpages -the general rule seems to be never leave the house) I'm curious to know whether Babblers like the page or think I'm out to lunch and maybe suggest other tips or info that should be provided to students and others.
Wed, 2007-09-05 22:07
#3
And maybe it's a good idea to get to know the layout of the campus and where all the shadowy, less secure parts of it are. When I was at Carleton, walking through the dark tunnels at night gave me the willies. I was one of those students who did late hours in labs to catch up or get ahead sometimes. During winter it's cold outside, and the damn doors locked automatically once you were outside. Back then I was on a see food diet just about every two or three hours on the hour. I'd dare myself to get to the pizza or sandwich shop through the tunnels at 10 and 11 o'clock at night and almost always heading off by lonesome from the other end at Herzberg. And there were never-never any security people in those tunnels when I was there.
I feel sorry for women who just can't or shouldn't be roaming around like that without buddying with someone constantly or carrying a taser, mace or something. I think self defence classes should be right there for them during frosh week. With all that newly discovered testosterone floating around in schools, if I were female I'd consider carrying a persuader, dissuader or electrical shock device of some sort in my handbag for piece of mind and practice the quick draw. Don't be a chickenhawk caught asleep at the switch during what could be your own personal 9-11, is what I'm saying.
Thu, 2007-09-06 03:59
#4
Maysie
Summer, I like that webpage on how to avoid sexual assualt.
Changes I would make is putting the info that addresses what men can do first, and expanding on it.
A more radical suggestion is to have curfews after a certain hour. Not for women, for men. (This isn't my original idea, so I can't take credit for it. It often gets men's backs up though. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] )
Even a curfew for men won't stop all sexual assaults, because of what you've already said Summer, and that we've talked about on babble a number of times: that women are sexually assaulted at all times of the day and night, more likely by someone they know.
And Fidel, what's up with this?
quote:
. Don't be a chickenhawk caught asleep at the switch during what could be your own personal 9-11, is what I'm saying.
Women live with fear of sexual assault, to different gradations, and being told by a man such ridiculous "advice" is offensive.
I went to York many moons ago. No woman I knew [b]ever[/b] took the tunnels alone, at any time of the day or night, no matter how friggin cold, blustery or blizzardy it was, and it got extremely cold at York.
Don't feel sorry for us. It's not pity we need.
Thu, 2007-09-06 06:14
#5
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]Even a curfew for men won't stop all sexual assaults, because of what you've already said Summer, and that we've talked about on babble a number of times: that women are sexually assaulted at all times of the day and night, more likely by someone they know. [/b]
And most likely at home, where a curfew won't help, unfortunately.
Thu, 2007-09-06 06:33
#6
I just returned to Ottawa and have been trying to wrap my head around the awful news from Carleton.
A fellow student expressed an opinion that I think is complementary to what BCG said in this thread. She told me that she doesn't like the concentration in media coverage on increased security, because this puts an emphasis on the victimization of women. The natural response in this type of situation is to beef up security on campus, but her point is: why not place just as much of a focus on anger management/socialization training for men? Why is the focus only on women? Shift some of it to men.
Thu, 2007-09-06 06:49
#7
quote:
Originally posted by M.Gregus:
[b]
why not place just as much of a focus on anger management/socialization training for men? Why is the focus only on women? Shift some of it to men.[/b]
I think that might take a different kind of courage than otherwise assumed.
The website linked to, is voluntary to read. It's for women who want and chose to read it. They could put up such a website for men, which could be for men who want to know how to not commit rape. You notice a problem with that sentence? Such men are already not likely to commit rape. The issue is almost invisible to the average guy. He's not at either end of the problem, or at least he doesn't think he is. Most likely, he doesn't know of any his friends who have been at either end. From what I recall of a class where we were asked that question, maybe one tenth of the men and half the women raised their hands.
In order to have a positive impact, a male-oriented campaign would need to fulfill two crietia:
1) It would need to reach the entire male population, like as an appendage to sex-education classes in high schools.
2) The material in the campaign should be based on sound and correct assumptions of human nature and behavior, otherwise it might backfire by for example inducing apathy.
[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Thu, 2007-09-06 07:06
#8
quote:
if I were female I'd consider carrying a persuader, dissuader or electrical shock device of some sort in my handbag for piece of mind and practice the quick draw. Don't be a chickenhawk caught asleep at the switch
Well, as a guy who has been around campuses and other student environs, do you carry a weapon on the chance of being able to intervene in a sexual assault? Are you ready to stand up to a drunken lout bothering women on the bus, or in the bar? Even if they are bigger than you?
Do you keep a wary eye out?
Rapists of all stripes are an offense to whatever version of manhood or masculinity we have fashioned for ourselves. I think weapons in a public place are a bad idea for everyone. But [i]you[/i] can take a self offense course.
It is time to learn that it is incumbent on us to be watchful, wary, and ready.
You're an exuberant lefty, Fidel, which means somewhere etched on your soul of souls is a deep disdain for bullies. You'll rot away if you leave the job of standing up to them to someone else.
Thu, 2007-09-06 07:07
#9
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b]2) The material in the campaign should be based on sound and correct assumptions of human nature and behavior, otherwise it might backfire by for example inducing apathy.[/b]
What do you mean by this? Are you saying the website link above is not sound information and is not correct about human nature?
Thu, 2007-09-06 07:14
#10
quote:
Originally posted by Remind2:
[b]What do you mean by this? Are you saying the website link above is not sound information and is not correct about human nature?[/b]
No, it was a general comment based on my impression of many attitude campaigns going on in the world today. I didn't have any specific campaign in mind.
Thu, 2007-09-06 10:06
#11
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]Well, as a guy who has been around campuses and other student environs, do you carry a weapon on the chance of being able to intervene in a sexual assault? Are you ready to stand up to a drunken lout bothering women on the bus, or in the bar? Even if they are bigger than you?[/b]
Women tend not to have the same advantages as males though, and thats why I mentioned personal safety devices.
[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Thu, 2007-09-06 10:44
#12
quote:
When I was at Carleton, walking through the dark tunnels at night gave me the willies. I was one of those students who did late hours in labs to catch up or get ahead sometimes. During winter it's cold outside, and the damn doors locked automatically once you were outside.
When I was at Carleton I did a miniscule survey of females on campus, and how safe they felt at night. It was for a history course, which was basically for grooming historians to analyze information. It was a number of years back, and I wish I still had it to go into more detail, but it seemed to me that most women thought the tunnel system was a great thing during the day, to escape from the Ottawa cold, but dreaded it at night. You’re right Fidel, walking through those dark, dingy corridors, you can’t help but to worry. Another concern was the side of the campus that borders the canal, and has such a low level of lighting that it’s beautiful in the day, but eerie and dangerous at night. I interviewed campus “footpatrol” about the issue, for a separate assignment, and their basic response was that they do their best to ensure that all students, both male and female, feel safe on campus, but due to a dwindling number of volunteers and insufficient funding from the university, it’s difficult to be everywhere at every time. It’s unfortunate really, and hits close to home, because I can remember the times I walked through campus at night to hit the library, when I knew I really shouldn’t be there alone.
Thu, 2007-09-06 11:06
#13
I remember hearing here at the U of A, they actually closed a couple tunnel because of the prevalance of crime, including sexual assualts, going on there.
There is now a program at the U of A called Safewalk, designed to escort - for free - any student who is doesn't want to walk about campus alone at night. I'm considering signing up for it, but then I'm already considering signing up for about 5 or 6 different clubs and organizations. I've been wandering around club fair too much.
Thu, 2007-09-06 11:41
#14
Having been on the Carleton campus today, I can confirm that there is indeed an increased security presence. Over the course of an hour, I saw three security personnel in different locations. This is in addition to several police officers, but their attendance is due mostly to the CUPE strike at Carleton.
I don't know what kind of information about violence against women is provided during events like orientation these days, but at the very least an education campaign targeting both men and women is needed. I suspect information along these lines buried among the deluge of frosh materials given to students this time of year.
Thu, 2007-09-06 14:00
#15
Apples - I don't understand why you think the webpage is for "women who want and chose to read it". I initially linked to it from a press release issued by the U of O, inviting readers to continue to the Protection page or something along those lines. Nowhere does it say women only or "women you should read this. men don't bother, you guys can read the Sports section". I think it's a very narrow minded point of view that only women have an interest in preventing assaults. if this is your view, I respectfuly suggest that you do more reading and less posting in this forum.
Regarding M. Gregus's post above:
quote:
A fellow student expressed an opinion that I think is complementary to what BCG said in this thread. She told me that she doesn't like the concentration in media coverage on increased security, because this puts an emphasis on the victimization of women. The natural response in this type of situation is to beef up security on campus, but her point is: why not place just as much of a focus on anger management/socialization training for men? Why is the focus only on women? Shift some of it to men.
I'm torn on this. Because I definitely agree the focus should be on what both men and women can/should do. However, in the Carleton case in particular, it seems that the attack was planned and maybe the victim was even chosen in advance. Some rapists do so based on opportunity and lack of respect for women but there will always be rapists like the one at Carleon or the balcony rapist in the Annex and I think the only way to prevent those is through the buddy system and increased security and caution.
then, there's always BCG's suggestion of a curfew for men (I believe Jane Doe was the person I first heard this idea from)...of course we know, it couldn't really work and is discriminatory to men (most of whom are decent guys IMO), but there was a post once that discussed things men can do to make women feel less uncomfortable, like giving them space in an elevator, or not following too closely on the sidewalk or crossing to the opposite side of the street late at night. These are completely do-able.
Thu, 2007-09-06 14:21
#16
Deleted.
[ 06 September 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]
Thu, 2007-09-06 14:45
#17
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]Another concern was the side of the campus that borders the canal, and has such a low level of lighting that it’s beautiful in the day, but eerie and dangerous at night.[/b]
Tell me about it. That whole south-east end of it all was freaky-deaky for me. And the all day parking lot was another place I disliked somewhat on a cold dark night. All in all I enjoyed my time there. I was a different person at the end of it all. I hate to think what something like a sexual assault would do to someone mentally and emotionally. Risking it happening for the sake of a bag of cheesies or pizza or taking a shortcut really isn't worth it, imo. When the security just isn't there, I'd seriously think about carrying something, a referee's whistle, a hockey stick, a flare gun, anything. Make'em pay dearly for trying to take what's not theirs. Raise hell, make noise, kick him hard where it hurts. Hit'im in the throat as hard as you can if the opportunity presents itself and circumstances warrant it.
Fri, 2007-09-07 02:05
#18
quote:
Women tend not to have the same advantages as males though, and thats why I mentioned personal safety devices.
Yes, but I think we are carrying coals to Newcastle here.
I was not as articulate as I would like to have been earlier. What was behind my thinking is the reports I get from the women I live with and associate with concerning the harassment they encounter. Some of it isn't always sexual in nature. Often it's poor or denegrating service from clerks or others, or road rage incidents with male drivers, etc.
With one exception, it doesn't happen when I am around, only when women are alone. Which is not to say I am an imposing guy, or some kind of action hero. What it suggests is that men are inhibited in these behaviors in the presence of other men.
What message are we giving, then, when we react to cases of rape by advising women to take care of themselves? In the loopy world of the rapist, they are free to think their peers are blaming women for not being vigilant enough.
If anyone should be warned to take self defense courses, or to be extra vigilant, it should be the rapist.
Fri, 2007-09-07 02:52
#19
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
[b]What message are we giving, then, when we react to cases of rape by advising women to take care of themselves? In the loopy world of the rapist, they are free to think their peers are blaming women for not being vigilant enough.[/b]
Yes, I can see that. From my perspective, I'm thinking that would-be rapists are a lost cause. No amount of preaching will transform them into well mannered socialites. And I'm thinking anyone, really, probably shouldn't take chances walking alone in dark isolated areas. And I mean to include women, men, children, rich, poor and anywhere inbetween.
When I worked as a line cutter in Northern Ontario, the rule was you don't work alone in the bush. If something happens, like a windfall drops on you, cut your own head off, sprain an ankle, break a leg, become disoriented and lost, or you come between a mother bear and her cub without realizing it, then there's no else to help you.
And I've met people coming from cultures that teach them it's okay to treat women as subserviant. I've seen ten year-old males given the front seat of the family car while granny and older female siblings get the backseat and are generally looked upon as cleaning people and support staff for the patriarchy.
And some of us are just anti-social and generally unable to develop normal relationships with other people. I don't pretend to know the minds of these kinds of people. I think they are a small percentage of us, but I think the odds of meeting one in a dark alley could be better than the lottery.
Fri, 2007-09-07 03:04
#20
quote:
Yes, I can see that. From my perspective, I'm thinking that would-be rapists are a lost cause. No amount of preaching will transform them into well mannered socialites.
In what happened at Carleton, I agree. That person is a rabid dog that needs to be put down. I doubt it's the first time he's ever done something like this, and unless we are lucky, it isn't likely to be the last.
But there are the date rapists and others who, I think, do what they do because they have a peer group that thinks that kind of thing is a joke, and feed off of that. We need to start serving up a different dish.
Fri, 2007-09-07 04:17
#21
Maysie
quote:
Fidel: I'm thinking that would-be rapists are a lost cause. No amount of preaching will transform them into well mannered socialites.
quote:
Tommy P: That person is a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
Some rapists are well-mannered socialites. Some rapists are former Ontario government representatives. Some rapists are CEOs making 7-figure incomes.
Rapists are not dogs, or animals, or monsters.
Rapists are (statistically) men who were raised in this world just like all of us reading and contributing to this thread. "Something" may make them different, but when I'm feeling cynical I think it's more likely that "something" makes men who are kind and lovely and who would never assert physcial dominance over a woman different, that it's the sweet men are who are different. Our project is to make violence against women (and children) socially abhorrent. It's not there yet.
The rapists in the stories that opened this thread were (I'm assuming this) violent strangers to the women they attacked. "Stranger danger" (I [b]know[/b] that I first read this phrase in the Jane Doe book, so given credit) is the easiest way to "sell" the idea that rape is real to the mainstream (male) public.
Women know that the truth is rape happens so many more ways than this.
quote:
Summer: but there was a post once that discussed things men can do to make women feel less uncomfortable, like giving them space in an elevator, or not following too closely on the sidewalk or crossing to the opposite side of the street late at night. These are completely do-able.
From what I recall, whenever this gets posted some men have felt the need to mock this and to jump up with "why should I behave like that if I'm one of the good guys?". Let's see. Of course, I completely agree with those ideas of real and practical things that men can do. They work.
Fri, 2007-09-07 05:20
#22
quote:
From what I recall, whenever this gets posted some men have felt the need to mock this and to jump up with "why should I behave like that if I'm one of the good guys?"
It's funny, long before "babble" and long before I was exposed to activity in politics that brought me along side feminists and their thinking, I did stuff like that. Just because it's the proper thing to do, and I don't feel good if I'm causing discomfort to someone else.
What makes me like that? My parents are long deceased, but my wife who never had the chance to know them says that through me, she knows they were very decent people. And I think they were. But they also had their demons. As do I. Was I born this way? How much of what I am is what I learned from society, how much is what I was born with?
We all make choices, I think. I would not write off all rapists as apart from humanity. In fact, I would place very few in this catagory, and know your wisdom on the subject is correct.
But what happened at Carleton was a man who chose to put himself on the outside of humanity. I didn't put him there because of his skin colour, or his religion, or by the way he looked.
But because of what he chose to do.
Fri, 2007-09-07 06:06
#23
But Tommy, rape is a very human thing to do. A very horrible human thing to do, but like killing, torturing and other awful things, it's well within the range of human behaviour.
I think the reason why some feminists have a problem with labeling rapists as "monsters" is because it makes rape into something that is unusual, monstrous, when in actual fact, it's depressingly common, and people from all walks of life do it and are victims of it.
People who have raped are not monsters. They're people who have internalized society's misogynist mindset. Sometimes they're people who don't even know that what they've done is sexual assault because society is so screwed up on how much consent is acceptable. Look at that thread where we were discussing the commercial where that guy groped his wife repeatedly, despite her objections, until she finally had to fight him off and run out of the room. Many of us (including me) laughed at the joke at first, and even after discussion, at least one of us didn't recognize it as assault.
If that were to happen in real life, would that guy be a monster? No, he wouldn't. Are thousands (maybe millions?) of husbands who don't take no for an answer, or maybe don't stop right away when their wives say stop, monsters? No, of course not. It's just not that black and white.
Is someone who beats a woman a monster? No. He's someone with rage and self-control issues, and perhaps a misogynist - but not a monster. He's a human being, a man brought up in a society where there is so much blurriness in the middle of a continuum of acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour towards women that he's somehow convinced himself that he's justified in doing this sort of thing.
Sat, 2007-09-08 02:59
#24
Yes, I agree, to a large extent. But I wasn't talking about the kind of people you are talking about. I was going to quote from the article what he did, but I don't really want to. Maybe you can go back and read it.
I agree--- or as indicated above--- grapple with just how much of what we are is environment, and just how much is what we are born with. I am willing to cut slack on certain things based on environment. But we are not automatons. We are not irrevocably programmed like a computer by society, nor by our genes.
We have free will.
But I have bloviated here in this thread a post or two too much.
The last word belongs to you guys.
Sat, 2007-09-08 09:15
#25
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]Some rapists are well-mannered socialites. Some rapists are former Ontario government representatives. Some rapists are CEOs making 7-figure incomes.Rapists are not dogs, or animals, or monsters.
[/b]
Aha! I shouldn't lead us off intt a tangential sub-thread topic like this, but I did mention on numerous other threads what legal studies tell us. And that's that white collar crime in North America in general is worth a hundred times the value of blue collar street thefts annually. What does this have to do with rape?. It's simple, law enforcement on up to Revenue Canada and IRS(US) aren't very good at catching smart criminals in general. And I don't think it's because they aren't capable, it's because there is no political will to make it happen. The system tends to catch the criminals who are not very good at being criminals. The people being warehoused in prisons tend to be there because they are poor and commit stupid crimes with a smaller percentage of those crimes being the most violent ones.
Sun, 2007-09-09 19:23
#26
[url=http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070909/york_rapes_... assaults at another Ontario university, met with increased campus security.[/url]
Sun, 2007-09-09 19:48
#27
These stories piss me off. They are stories the media uses sell papers. These stories excuse rape by portraying rapists as "monsters" As though rape is committed by monsters that need to be hunted down by the heroic police.
They catch the "monsters" and so everyone gives sighs of relief. In reality, rape is happening everyday to your sisters, your aunts, your grandmothers, and women everywhere.
I want to see stories about men who choose a day and then thousands and thousands of them march down streets of the country to "give the night" to women.
Mon, 2007-09-10 07:05
#28
Good point. I didn't see any national news reports of the Take Back the Night march in Toronto, even though it would have been timely for the media. More importantly, it would have also provided an alternative (or at least wider perspective) to the "lock yourselves up, let's beef up security" solution being circulated in the MSM.
Mon, 2007-09-10 17:56
#29
quote:
Originally posted by 1234567:
[QB]These stories piss me off. They are stories the media uses sell papers. These stories excuse rape by portraying rapists as "monsters" As though rape is committed by monsters that need to be hunted down by the heroic police.[QB]
I think it's good that these stories continue to be published. It would be better IMO if the stories contained some additional information and statistics about the number of unreported assaults and the fact that the majority of sexual assaults are committed by men known to the women. But the stories I've read are better than no story at all. Everytime a story like this is in the paper, it reminds us that sexual assault exists. Of course, we all know that here, but a lot of people out there prefer to believe that things like that just don't happen anymore [to nice people]. I still wonder if the more we hear about sexual assaults, the more likely people are to report it when it happens to them.
Re: whether rapists are monsters. I think we might be arguing semantics here. Michelle and 1-7, not liking calling rapists monsters; I think I share Tommy's view to an extent. I think sexual assault is monstrous behaviour. Not that that makes the assailant inhuman - it just makes him a human who acts like a monster. No one wants to be a monster and in my view, the more that this behaviour becomes thought of as monstrous, the more unacceptable it will be.
If anyone knows of any studies that have looked at the use and effect of language in sexual assault cases, I would be very interested in seeing them.
Mon, 2007-09-10 19:31
#30
quote:
I think it's good that these stories continue to be published. It would be better IMO if the stories contained some additional information and statistics about the number of unreported assaults and the fact that the majority of sexual assaults are committed by men known to the women. But the stories I've read are better than no story at all. Everytime a story like this is in the paper, it reminds us that sexual assault exists.
I disagree, I think that having stories that sensationalize rape by portraying the rapists as monsters gives society a false sense of security when the rapists eventually get caught.
Rarely do they they ever give real statistics about rape or "profiles" of rapists. By profiles I mean that rapists are usually someone a woman knows and not some random stranger.
Once the rapists get caught, society goes back into denial about the fact that a woman is raped.
quote:
MYTH: Sexual assault is most often committed by strangers.
FACT: Women face the greatest risk of sexual assault from men they know, not strangers. Of the women who are sexually assaulted, most (69%) are sexually assaulted by men known to them dates, boyfriends, marital partners, friends, family members or neighbours.
What usually happens is that women are told to be careful, not walk alone etc.
quote:
MYTH: The best way for a woman to protect herself from sexual assault is to avoid being alone at night in dark, deserted places, such as alleys or parking lots.FACT: Most sexual assaults (60%) occur in a private home and the largest percentage of these (38%) occur in the victim's home. (6) The idea that most sexual assaults fit the 'stranger-in-a-dark-alley' stereotype can lead to a false sense of security.
The media always do stories about "monsters"
quote:
MYTH: Men who sexually assault women are either mentally ill or sexually starved.FACT: Men who sexually assault are not mentally ill or sexually starved. Studies on the profiles of rapists reveal that they are "ordinary" and "normal" men who sexually assault women in order to assert power and control over them.
Mon, 2007-09-10 20:47
#31
quote:
Originally posted by 1234567:
[b]I disagree, I think that having stories that sensationalize rape by portraying the rapists as monsters gives society a false sense of security when the rapists eventually get caught. [/b]
Actually,it seems you are agreeing with it, on one hand while disavowing it on nother.
Tue, 2007-09-11 06:12
#32
Well, it's good that you are paying attention to what you are reading.
I'd would just like to see papers stop the monster stories because it does create a false sense of security when the rapists are caught. In reality, women are more likely to be raped by someone they know rather than a stranger.
Tue, 2007-09-11 06:23
#33
I think that females should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm. A small 6 shot 22 caliber in the purse or in the nightstand drawer would do it. This would entail a special legislative firearm ownership exclusion for females while maintaining strict or stricter requirements for males. After all, whan do you hear about women going around shooting people. It's almost always guys. I think it would be perfectly justifiable, in light of the facts, to arm only women.
Tue, 2007-09-11 06:40
#34
While I would love to carry a big huge gun and be "Jodi Foster"(Brave One) , the statistics show that most women are raped by people we know. I don't know why that fact is always ignored. Maybe it's because we don't want to believe that of the men close to us.
Tue, 2007-09-11 06:51
#35
I didn't know that. It's really creepy to think about. Whatever the case, I think my point stands. The potential of a gun could dissuade even the men a woman knows.
[ 11 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]
Tue, 2007-09-11 07:47
#36
quote:
Raise hell, make noise, kick him hard where it hurts. Hit'im in the throat as hard as you can if the opportunity presents itself and circumstances warrant it.
I wish it was that easy. Most women of my acquaintance have never struck another person to cause harm or been struck. I know what it feels like and I know I can and will fight back willingly and with a degree of satisfaction if I ever need to. This comes from having experience and training and being egged on to do so. I also played soccer and that in high school is a place where girls let loose all the not so pretty things that are inside of us too, but I only have a handful of girlfriends that played sports and have learned to let out that aggressive competitive side of our nature.
So many women who are assaulted by strangers or by those they know don’t know how to hit back. Nor should they have to learn to if they don’t have the desire to get in touch with that side. I do personally believe that self defence should be taught starting in Grade 6, and should continue all the way through. I think we should have our children know what it feels like to defend themselves so that when they have to it’s instinct, girls need to lose the conditioning they are given regarding been physically aggressive and hurting someone. Then maybe a nice side effect would be more strong, mouthy women and it would be normalized and they would have to hear people telling them to be polite all the time.
quote:
The potential of a gun could dissuade even the men a woman knows.
Cripes that’s a bad idea! Most women can’t throw a punch to the throat and you want to give them a weapon that can kill them? Sorry, guns don’t make less violence. And do you really want to put a woman in the position of killing her kids Dad? Or she’s already being raped by her partner before she knows she needs her gun? The potential of a gun dissuades very few people already so why would this be any different. I think we can come up with a better solution to the problem than slapping a gun shaped band aid on it.
Tue, 2007-09-11 07:52
#37
Guns for self defence can easily be used against the person carrying it. I would not feel comfortable carrying a gun. I also would not like a thread about sexual assault to turn into a thread about guns.
1-7, no one here is disagreeing with you that most sexual assaults are committed by men we know. Am I misunderstanding your posts, or are you suggesting that it would be better for the media not to cover stories of sexual assault at all? I haven’t seen a story yet which has referred to any of the assailants as a monster. Nor do I think we will be told to breathe a collective sigh of relief once the most current rapist is caught. I for one have never thought to myself, “well gee, now that they caught that one guy, I don’t have to worry about a thing.” The more stories about sexual assault that make it into the msm, the more likely people are to realize that this is a problem.
Tue, 2007-09-11 08:03
#38
I am just going with experience here and having quite a few young female relatives. One of them was sexually assaulted by someone they knew. The rest of the girls learned a bit more about sexual assault and were quite surprised that rape is usually done by someone they know. Just sitting and talking with them I could see that they had previously believed in the "man in the alley" type scenario for rape.
I guess we have to decide if we want to read about every single rape? Especially if it is done by someone women know. And how does that make the rest of us behave? Do we not trust any man?
I don't know, I just wish that young girls did not have to learn the fear that I have or women have of being raped. Always watching, always having to pay attention, scoping out places before going in etc. It's a sad way to live but I alot of women live this way, we have to.
Tue, 2007-09-11 09:04
#39
"do you really want to put a woman in the position of killing her kids Dad?"
Well, if he has raped or is about to rape her......yes, his death would be perfectly justifiable. Any man who would rape a woman deserves to die. I wouldn't shed a tear and neither should the woman doing the killin'. I don't mean to be presumptious or anything, not being a woman and all, and I don't advocate murder for the weak of heart, but if you got the gun and you got the fortitude and you are in danger, I fully support your right to do whatever you feel necessary to extracate yourself from that danger. Including killing the bastard.
[ 11 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]
Tue, 2007-09-11 09:11
#40
How the hell did this turn into a gun thread? This has happened before in the feminism forum, and it's always annoying. Women are most likely to be raped at home by the men they know. The men they know would know they have a gun, and likely know where it is, too. So it's not like they'd say, "Hey, I wonder if I should force her here, next to the drawer that has the gun?" Or, if it comes down to an actual fight, it's quite possible for the woman to be overpowered and to have her gun turned on her.
This isn't the movies. The feminism forum isn't for Rambo fantasies. Listen to the women posting instead of trying to solve all their problems for them using a pet issue. I feel like you're trying to be supportive, so I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but women have thought of that idea before. The problem is, reality doesn't always work that way.
[ 11 September 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]
Tue, 2007-09-11 09:14
#41
Maysie
quote:
Originally posted by Catchall:
[b]"do you really want to put a woman in the position of killing her kids Dad?"Well, if he has or is about to rape her......yes, his death would be perfectly justifiable. Any man who would rape a women deserves to die. I wouldn't shed a tear and neither should the woman doing the killin'[/b]
Wow, Catchall, I really think you don't get what most of this thread is about. Violence is not the solution most feminists go to.
If the point is that most rapists are known, and presumably in close and perhaps "loving" relationships with the woman they abuse and rape, the question for me is why? What can be done about it? Why is rape so "normal" for these men? And what can we do, individually and as a society, to stop it?
Tue, 2007-09-11 09:33
#42
Sorry bcg, I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion. I also apologize to anyone offended by my tirade. It's a sensitive subject for me, that's all. My wife was raped before she met me. I guess I get kinda hot under the collar when the topic comes up. I'll be quiet for awhile now and just listen.
[ 11 September 2007: Message edited by: Catchall ]
Tue, 2007-09-11 10:57
#43
Maysie
Catchall, I didn't mean for you to no longer add any comments, but women on babble have gone through discussions like this. Overandover it seems. Some women have disclosed past sexual assaults, and some no longer engage on babble on this topic, and I don't blame them. We know first-hand the anger, fear and rage of the violation of sexual assault and rape. We live our feelings about this everyday, in large and small ways.
Read up on some past threads about the issue of rape and you'll know what I'm talking about.
Fri, 2007-09-21 04:38
#44
[url=http://www.thestar.com/News/article/258918]Ex-student charged in York rapes.[/url]
quote:
A man arrested in connection with two dorm room rapes at York University tried to launch an after-school sports program for kids three years ago."He was really into helping kids," Kirill Kripak said of Daniel Katsnelson, a 25-year-old Thornhill man who surrendered to police Wednesday. "He was a good guy."
More evidence that rapists are not monsters.
Tue, 2007-09-25 17:36
#45
Both could be true - i.e. a number of persons that seem real nice and are really into working with kids have huge power/control issues and turn into calculating monsters when a woman says no to them or a child that "turns them on" is involved.
Rape is so harmful that *it* and not its author's station in life should be our test of whether someone qualifies as a monster". As it is, a man can rape - for that matter, he may assassinate "his" wife and children - and the media will still discount this and use other factors to defend him and his privilege.
[ 26 September 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Thu, 2008-01-24 17:55
#46
In the wake of yet another sexual assault on a female student earlier this month and apparently an assault on an employee I hadn't heard about until I received a forward today, York's Graduate Women's Studies Students released this letter and started a guerilla postering campaign around the campus by putting up signs saying "Don't Rape" to stress their point about the university's "Be Vigilant" warnings.
OPEN LETTER FROM GRADUATE WOMEN'S STUDIES STUDENTS ASSOCIATION TO THE YORK COMMUNITY.
Re: sexual assaults on campus.
We’re writing this letter because we’re angry.
Why?
First, because women at York are being attacked, sexually assaulted and raped. Like everyone, we have the right to study and work without fear of violence.
Second, we’re angry because instead of hearing a loud and repeated condemnation of sexual assault, we’re told how to avoid being raped. York administration’s security bulletin calls on us to be “vigilant” about our safety. Women have heard this before: don’t make the same mistakes as those women; don’t go out alone at night; don’t be in the wrong place at the wrong time; basically, don’t
get raped.
We’re angry because this is about our bodies, our lives, our dignity. But our anger about York’s official response does not stop with administrators: when
they imply the perpetrators are strangers with no ties to York, no one has to take responsibility. Rape is a public relations nightmare, but denying its rootedness in the York community will not protect us.
Sexual assault and rape at York is done by people from York. We’re angry because we want to trust the people we live, work and study with. We want to be in a community that does not tell us, tacitly or officially, “don’t get raped,” but instead, values women enough to say, “don’t rape.” Rape is not accidental, and
it is not isolated. It thrives in a culture that is tolerant of violence, especially violence against women. Currently, it thrives here, at York.
We want this culture to change, and that takes work. Security cameras and extra lighting are not the kind of “vigilance” we need.
We want to feel safe and respected. So you be vigilant: don’t rape.
The GWSSA
Thu, 2008-01-24 21:25
#47
What a powerful message. I hope it rings a chord with the York administration.
Thu, 2008-01-24 23:38
#48
RevolutionPlease
quote:
Originally posted by M.Gregus:
[b]What a powerful message. I hope it rings a chord with the York administration.[/b]
Doubt it. Heads in the sand.
Fri, 2008-01-25 05:28
#49
I know, but I can't help hoping something gets through, especially when the message is so strong. The letter should be guerrilla posted over the extra security cameras and lights, and on the university admin's doors. [img]mad.gif" border="0[/img]
Fri, 2008-01-25 05:35
#50
rural - Francesca
It never makes the message to all of society, that's why we have women only buses I guess
Fri, 2008-01-25 08:32
#51
remind
Women, it seems, are the only identifable group, where actions of hate against them are shrugged off by telling them how conduct themselves in order not to be the victims of hate.