plastic surgery
Fri, 2007-09-07 08:55
#1
plastic surgery
Fri, 2007-09-07 08:55
#2
I was reading an article in [i]Ms[/i] yesterday about plastic surgery using feminist wording to make it seem like an empowering thing as opposed to being a result of social pressures to meet the beauty ideal. I agree with this - they are on the same level as the cosmetics industry that take advantage of women's insecurities to sell cosmetics. Is there any context however when plastic surgery can be feminist ( I know I'm contradicting myself) ?
Fri, 2007-09-07 09:59
#3
Well, I guess reconstructive surgery would be one, although, that's not what people generally think of as "plastic surgery".
Then I guess there's also reductive surgery on breasts - some women find it extremely uncomfortable to carry around large breasts and do it for comfort. I don't have a problem with that. (Well, actually, I don't have a problem with doing it for any reason since it's not my body, but you know what I mean.)
But I assume you're talking about doing plastic surgery entirely for aesthetic reasons?
I guess the problem with that question is that we live in a society where there is never a "pure" reason for doing anything. I mean, I could say, "Hey, I colour my hair red because I really like the colour red," but who knows whether a little teeny tiny part of me is doing it to hide my grey hair, or is doing it because I feel insecure about my boring natural colour? When I wear make-up, it's not just a personal decision, it's also a social decision, influenced by the idea that dressed-up-means-make-up. Doesn't mean I always think that way, doesn't mean I always wear make-up.
So I don't know. Is plastic surgery a feminist thing to do? Not really. Is it anti-feminist? Not really, but it could be, I suppose, depending on the reasoning behind it.
Fri, 2007-09-07 12:48
#4
My first thought was no, cosmetic plastic surgery could never be feminist. But what if a woman wanted to get, say, a facelift, and her husband objected because of the expense, and she defied him, going ahead with the facelift and paying for it with money she earned, that'd be feminist.
Personally, though, I'm against recreational surgery. Even if it isn't covered by the public health care system, complications of plastic surgery (e.g. infections, blood clots) would be. All medical procedures have risk, and if the benefit is purely esthetic for a person who wasn't disfigured, then surely cutting into a healthy body is mutilation.
Fri, 2007-09-07 13:35
#5
But so would tatoos or peircings?
Fri, 2007-09-07 14:45
#6
quote:
But so would tatoos or peircings?
Exactly. I have thought long and hard about plastic surgery in regards to feminism. My opinion is that it is and it isn't. The issue is far too complex to just dismiss as anti-feminist and it is also hard to dismiss as feminist as well. Some women feel empowered having plastic surgery. For some it gives them the advantage of still being able to get acting jobs in an ageist world. The fact is, that we live in a world where look are highly valued. Where youth culture is exalted, where women are not allowed to age gracefully and naturally. To adapt, some women chose to modify their bodies.
Personally if I had a lot of money I would hire a personal trainer to kick my ass 4 times a week for 3 hours a day. This would certainly modify my body. I would probably also consider getting some cosmetic surgery.
People choose to modify their bodies by various means - tattoos, piercings, surgery, diets, exercise. The only difference between all of these methods is the degree of harm and the degree of permanence. I don't think body modification is in and of itself inherently anti-women, especially given the very real world context in which women are judged.
[ 07 September 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]
Fri, 2007-09-07 16:16
#7
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Then I guess there's also reductive surgery on breasts - some women find it extremely uncomfortable to carry around large breasts and do it for comfort. I don't have a problem with that. (Well, actually, I don't have a problem with doing it for any reason since it's not my body, but you know what I mean.)[/b]
Well that kind of thing really isn't much different than reconstructive surgery in this context, since the purpose is primarily medical.
As far as purely cosmetic surgery goes, I do see it as a problem if women think they have to resort to that in order to be happy while men feel FAR less pressure to go to such lengths. And I'd rather see equality come about by lowering the pressure on women to change their bodies than to have more men with body image issues.
Fri, 2007-09-07 16:36
#8
quote:
And I'd rather see equality come about by lowering the pressure on women to change their bodies than to have more men with body image issues.
Ideally that would be great. But unfortunately, we don't live in that world yet. If we ever will.
Fri, 2007-09-07 19:06
#9
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Ideally that would be great. But unfortunately, we don't live in that world yet. If we ever will.[/b]
Something to strive for, at least. I'm just not sure about this one: should it be my concern if some woman wants to get a face lift or breast implants because she figures she'll be able to make a better impression on men because of it? It IS her body, who am I to say that she shouldn't do whatever makes her feel most comfortable? But the idea of women doing things like that while men don't do anything except maybe pop over to the local drugstore for some Just For Men to touch up a few grey whiskers - that seriously creeps me out. Do I have a right to be creeped out over this, even though what other people do with their bodies is really their business?
Fri, 2007-09-07 19:24
#10
You have a right to feel how you feel. Just a couple of things I want to say. A lot of women do not get plastic surgery for men. They get it for themselves because they generally feel there is a flaw with their bodies. I guess by extension it is for the benefit of the view of others, and those others are the generalized "men". I guess what I am saying is that it is not as simple as modifying your body for men. There is a whole psychology behind it that ties in with how women are viewed in society. This is why I understand why some women get surgery done, and also why I do not condemn them for doing so.
Do some male bodybuilders use steroids to modify their body for other men, or for themselves? Would you have the same concern for them? Also, a lot of men get body modifications done - from eye laser surgery to butt implants. It is more common than you think for men to get plastic surgery.
We live in a society where looks are increasingly important. The quest to stay forever young is insane. Look at the amount of people pumping iron for hours a day at the gym. Or the men and women dying their hair, shaving, and otherwise changing their appearance to fit some mold that keeps getting pushed at us.
I think the only thing these women and men are guilty of is falling for it - and that is human nature. Most of us would like to stay or be thin, young, and beautiful. It's what is expected of us.
Sat, 2007-09-08 02:15
#11
quote:
But so would tatoos or peircings?
Personally, I don't do those, either, though nothing against people who do.
Stargazer makes some cogent points, how feeling better about how you look can be empowering. But cosmetic plastic surgery is a huge business, and where there's money, there's people who have a vested interest in making folks feel that the natural aging process is a disorder that needs surgical correction.
Sat, 2007-09-08 03:33
#12
That's right, Sineed, although I completely agree with Stargazer too, that if women want to do it, they shouldn't be put down because of it.
This is why I say that, while getting plastic surgery for looks is not a feminist act, I wouldn't call it an "anti-feminist" act either. I think you can get plastic surgery and still be a feminist. I mean, you can do lots of things that aren't specifically feminist but aren't ANTI-feminist either. If I drink a glass of wine, that's not particularly feminist of me, but it's also not anti-feminist. It just is what it is.
The problem with plastic surgery is that it has almost been labeled as ANTI-feminist, and I don't know, I just don't see it that way. It's no more anti-feminist than wearing make-up or shaving your legs or dying your hair, or wearing the latest style. It just is what it is.
Sat, 2007-09-08 07:37
#13
A recent trend in plastic surgery is its wider availability to the masses - that is, beyond the rich and upper-middle class - which adds the dimension of class to the debate.
quote:
Cosmetic medicine used to be the province of the rich and celebrated who would pay cash or write a check up front for their tummy tucks and eyelid lifts. (Such procedures are not typically covered by health insurance.) But in the last five years, with the advent of reality shows like “Extreme Makeover” and the popularization of nonsurgical treatments like lasers and wrinkle injections, people with blue- or pink-collar incomes and Beverly Hills ideals are embracing vanity medicine.
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/fashion/16skin.html?ex=1189396800&en=2... Is The Real Face of Plastic Surgery?[/url]
Sat, 2007-09-08 07:44
#14
The google ad under that New York Times article you posted was for labia reduction surgery. Makes me crazy. I understand people wanting surgery on thir faces or their breasts or tummy tucks or whatever, since everyone sees those parts. But who on earth sees your labia? Besides your significant other, and if s/he doesn't like it, find a new one!
Sat, 2007-09-08 07:58
#15
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]The google ad under that New York Times article you posted was for labia reduction surgery. Makes me crazy. I understand people wanting surgery on thir faces or their breasts or tummy tucks or whatever, since everyone sees those parts. But who on earth sees your labia?[/b]
Perhaps the people behind that ad know something about the Spring 2009 fashion line that we don't?
[img]eek.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2007-09-08 08:15
#16
quote:
The google ad under that New York Times article you posted was for labia reduction surgery. Makes me crazy. I understand people wanting surgery on their faces or their breasts or tummy tucks or whatever, since everyone sees those parts. But who on earth sees your labia? Besides your significant other, and if s/he doesn't like it, find a new one!
I agree. That is the one thing that pisses me off. That and the vagina tightening surgery. The whole 'try to make your vagina look like a child's' is just down right creepy.
Sat, 2007-09-08 08:30
#17
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000515&p... issue of vaginal plastic surgery just popped up in another thread recently.[/url]
My initial reaction was the same thing as you Michelle, that nobody sees it, and if your partner doesn't like it, find another, but the more I think about it, I think maybe if it's hindering someone from finding another partner, and hindering their sexual liberation, maybe it really is no different than getting breast implants or a nose job.
Sat, 2007-09-08 08:35
#18
Ugh, I didn't notice that the first time around. And now I see that the next ad showing up underneath THAT is "Toronto Plastic Surgeon" which expectedly and repulsively brings it closer to home.
Sat, 2007-09-08 09:30
#19
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
[b]My initial reaction was the same thing as you Michelle, that nobody sees it, and if your partner doesn't like it, find another, but the more I think about it, I think maybe if it's hindering someone from finding another partner, and hindering their sexual liberation, maybe it really is no different than getting breast implants or a nose job.[/b]
Making ones labia look like a child's is different from getting breast implants and a nose job. And that thought form is as stargazer said is creepy.
Moreover, scar tissue has diminished sensation capabilities, so if someone is looking for better sex from it, it would be doubtful if they could acheive such a thing.
This really comes down to a type of skewed body image indoctrination.
Link to surgery before and afters
[url=http://www.lasertreatments.com/labiaplasty.html]http://www.lasertreatmen...
Sat, 2007-09-08 09:34
#20
That's true Remind. In terms of the labia/tightening surgery I have read that it can and often does diminish sexual sensitivity.
Sat, 2007-09-08 15:01
#21
I'm fairly surprised by this thread. Babble is a large community is it not? I would have expected there be a few posters who not only have had plastic surgery, but are willing to discuss their experiences with it.
Is anyone here considering plastic surgery?
I'll definitely be getting a laser eye surgery, I'm sick and tired of glasses, of cleaning them and they still remain dirty, of their ruining quality, the lack of peripheral vision; I don't want to stick little disks in my eyes and I want to be able to buy sunglasses for under 500$. Besides, eyes look better than glasses.
I might also get my teeth whitened, but I'm barely yellow at all. This one has the advantage that it's only a few hundred dollars so hey no pain right?
I used to consider a rhinoplasty but not so much anymore. It's usually around $ 6000.... that's a gargantuan sum of money.
Sat, 2007-09-08 15:54
#22
I wouldn't call laser eye surgery cosmetic because it improves your eyesight and isn't merely aesthetic. And getting your teeth whitened isn't surgical at all.
Is nobody besides me concerned about the medical implications of recreational surgery? I've had several surgeries for medical reasons, and it's always been a horrendous experience. Side effects from the drugs, post-op infections--you could go in to get your nose shaped and end up with [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070908.winfect0908/...
Sat, 2007-09-08 16:50
#23
quote:
Originally posted by 500_Apples:
[b] I don't want to stick little disks in my eyes and I want to be able to buy sunglasses for under 500$. Besides, eyes look better than glasses.[/b]
I was thinking about that since my mother had eye surgery to correct vision after having cataracts removed. She actually has artificial lenses inserted into her eyes infront of her own natural eye lenses. Vision ICL is a technique which was pioneered in Russia and is totally reversible should the need arise.
[ 08 September 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]
Sat, 2007-09-08 17:18
#24
This is unbelievable:
quote:
“People's hand-washing compliance is abysmal,” said Dr. Gardam. “And it's particularly bad with certain groups, such as physicians.”Instead of punishing offenders, he believes the best way to change behaviour is to use more carrot than stick. So Dr. Gardam is toying with the idea of giveaways: Hospital staff caught in the act of “cleaning up” might be handed a card from Starbucks or maybe Tim Hortons.
“If we're all washing our hands, it's [MRSA] not going anywhere,” Dr. Gardam said. “You can spend millions on surveillance and millions on rapid testing, but if you're not washing your hands, it probably doesn't matter that much.”
Physicians aren't washing their hands? 40% of health care staff don't wash their hands? What the hell is this, the fucking middle ages?
And they want to pay people to wander about and give free coffees to doctors who are paid a couple of hundred grand a year whenever they see them washing their hands, and that'll solve the problem? Because we wouldn't want to do anything that might be seen as "a stick"? Gosh yes, we wouldn't want to tell a doctor that he's a fucking idiot for spreading germs that kill people because washing his hands is just too much to ask of someone who's getting paid a couple of hundred bucks an hour.
Sat, 2007-09-08 17:29
#25
That article scared the bejesus out of me, and gives a convincing argument never to set foot in a hospital if you can help it, let alone sign up for elective surgery for aesthetic reasons.
Sat, 2007-09-08 17:48
#26
Another example of where we don't need uninspired low wage slaves cleaning our hospitals. Just say no to Pee3's, or the Liberal's version, AFPee's.
Sat, 2007-09-08 18:19
#27
As anyone who is a longtime Babble reader knows, I have a fine ass. "Sublime buttocks" is the family-friendly phrase I use, but we all know what I mean. My ass is the way it is partly from genetics, but partly from the seven klicks I powerwalk five times a week. It looks great naked in the mirror, and makes this sharp, resounding noise when I slap it with the palm of my hand for dramatic effect. So I'm good there. And my unit, though toqued, is in showroom condition as well. So no worries in that department. But I have developed this nasty grand canyon like divide between my eyebrows. It's really cramping my style. As a single, heterosexual man in the dating scene, it's my duty to look as good as I can. The "Maxwell Sheffield" streak of gray on my noggin disappears with a bottle of Mr. Clairol. But this eye thing has got me freaked right out. I looked into botox, but I hate needles, and it has to be done regularly. I'm at the point where I'm browsing yellow pages ads, looking at plastic surgeons. I don't want surgery, but I don't want The Big Valley playing on my lower forehead while I'm trying to make The Love Connection. So ya, I'm considering it.
Sat, 2007-09-08 18:20
#28
Not to defend drs who don't wash their hands, but I've worked in several hospitals, and when you wash your hands as often as you're supposed to, you end up taking your skin off. I recall, during a busy day, sitting down for a break and noticing that my knuckles were bleeding.
Where I now work, I special-order a nice moisturizing skin lotion that a plastic surgeon at the burn unit at Sunnybrook hospital recommended as the best product for sensitive skin--they use it for burn patients to wear under their pressure suits. I get it for the doctors and nurses (and me) to help ameliorate the effects of washing hands dozens of times a day.
And don't talk to me about that awful alcohol hand sanitizer stuff--it makes you feel like you scrubbed down with glue and makes your hands smell funny. And washing with soap and water still works better.
I contracted an infection after surgery to remove an abdominal tumour. I don't have a horror story like those in that Globe article, but the infection caused the scar to be much more disfiguring than it otherwise would have been.
So having surgery when you don't have to strikes me as daft.
Sat, 2007-09-08 18:24
#29
Max Sheffield??
You could have some of the fat sucked out of your ass and injected into your forehead [img]cool.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2007-09-08 18:25
#30
Hey Sineed. That hadn't occurred to me, that it would be harmful to doctors and nurses to wash hands that often.
Well, that sucks, then. I have no idea what the solution would be, in that case. Don't get sick, I guess. [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]
Wiz, you're something else. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Sat, 2007-09-08 18:42
#31
quote:
Originally posted by The Wizard of Socialism:
[b] I looked into botox, but I hate needles, and it has to be done regularly. I'm at the point where I'm browsing yellow pages ads, looking at plastic surgeons. I don't want surgery, but I don't want The Big Valley playing on my lower forehead while I'm trying to make The Love Connection. So ya, I'm considering it.[/b]
Have you thought about having your head lopped off at the shoulders ?. I'm sure it's a day surgery. You're in, you're out.
Sun, 2007-09-09 04:37
#32
Don't Drs and nurses etc. wear gloves?
Sun, 2007-09-09 04:38
#33
Fidel: [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Summer: I've often wondered about that, too. But they're supposed to scrub their hands before doing that, otherwise they could get germs and viruses on the gloves themselves while putting them on, right?
Sun, 2007-09-09 05:28
#34
This reminded me of something I saw in a documentary many years ago. After some spellunking on the net, I found the history:
[url=http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/177_11_021202/dec10354_fm.html]Wash your hands if you had them inside a dead person, before you do an internal on a pregnant woman.[/url]
quote:
Holmes read the existing literature, and became convinced that the condition was highly contagious, and that doctors, nurses and midwives were the active agents of its spread. He began to speak and write on the subject, and in 1843 published his classic essay The Contagiousness of Puerperal Fever.8-10 The essay contains eight rules for the obstetrician, which included not only handwashing and changes of clothing, but also the avoidance of autopsies if obstetric cases were being managed.Holmes' conclusions were ridiculed by many of his prominent contemporaries. For example, Charles Meigs, a well-known obstetrician, was incensed at the suggestion he may himself be transmitting disease. "Doctors," he said, "are gentlemen, and gentlemen's hands are clean."
It's distressing to know that we are ignoring knowledge that was paid for so dearly, so long ago.
Mon, 2007-09-10 08:52
#35
But could plastic surgery be a way of controlling what society seeks to control (our bodies) ? I remember reading an article about anorexia and bulemia (by Susan Bordo I think) where she said something like that these were seen as empowering because it was a measure of control for women over their bodies- although I realise that these are diseases. So it would be empowerment from the source of our oppression.
[ 10 September 2007: Message edited by: Pride for Red Dolores ]
Mon, 2007-09-10 10:47
#36
Great analogy Pride. Yes it absolutely could be seen the same way. Anorexia is a disease in which powerless people manipulate their bodies because that is the one thing they have power over. So yes, I can see the comparison for sure. Just as an aside, anorexia is also a form of protesting against the world. Your body is (can be) a symbol of that protest.
Mon, 2007-09-10 11:36
#37
Polly B
I had a breast reduction after my last baby was born. I had been looking forward to it since my early teens, the surgery wasn't so awful bad, and I healed up nicely with 36C cups and breast that were much closer to my chin than they had been previous!
I would do it again in a minute. Was it cosmetic - perhaps 50/50 or so. I had back problems and poor posture from years of hiding my 38DD. But the biggest problem was the self esteem and poor body image, and the surgery fixed that.