quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Sure you should! You're exactly who we should be hearing from!I don't think anyone speaks for all women. I think that's probably remind's point. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] The difference is, none of the rest of us ARE claiming to speak for all women, or even all feminists.[/b]
thanks, michelle [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
yes, I understand now what remind was saying. (I tend to be "a bit" literal-minded! heh. understatement of the decade!)
quote:
The [only] difference with porn is that it is people making love, and we live in a world that cannot tolerate that image.."
How much of mainstream porn could actually be considered "love making"?
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]I don't think anyone speaks for all women. I think that's probably remind's point. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] The difference is, none of the rest of us ARE claiming to speak for all women, or even all feminists.[/b]
Exactly correct Michelle, and it is very offensive that a male claims to speak for women and tout that they know what ALL women believe, or feel about something. Esspecially those men who are trying to use feminist thought to support their personal belief structures.
As a feminist, over the years my viewpoint has changed on several issues concerning women, and women's empowerment, partcularily in the areas of sexuality.
If I have claimed to speak for "all women" or indeed "for women", please point out where I have done so. I know I haven't.
The only sweeping statement about women at issue is the one from Bacchus about "actors" in porn films, which I have taken to task by referring to women who say different.
(Personnally, I still think and am proud of saying that his claim stank to high heaven.)
I am aware that a male anti-sexist & profeminist voice often grates on some sensitivities - even more so sometimes than your garden variety out-and-out misogynist or pornocrat -, but assuming that such a voice necessarily claims to "speak for (all) women" is inaccurate IMO.
I know I am careful never to do so and am eager to be challenged if I ever do.
[ 26 October 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
martin, you are only willing to listen to feminist voices that YOU feel you should, and you do this so YOU can feel comfortable with what you believe yourself to be, "anti-sexist and pro-feminist", you are neither.
I refer you to this thread I started:
[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=001160]h...
Which I started because you dared to resurrect a thread, solely to trash cueball and say he was not respecting feminists.
That you do NOT realize that your doing this was more disrespectful, than anything cueball did, illuminates just how sexist and non-feminist you are.
Then you follow that up with your:
quote:
I am aware that a male anti-sexist & profeminist voice often grates on some sensitivities - even more so sometimes than your garden variety out-and-out misogynist or pornocrat
is mind boggling, and that is me putting it nicely, I would just rather say "piss off, martin, and stay the hell out of the feminist forum"
I disagree.
Contrary to your hunch, I read and listen to widely differing positions and analyses from women. I passionately disagree with some of my closest allies on various issues.
When the arguments are as radically opposed as they are over sexploitation issues, I look to my own experience - men's mindsets and privilege. It helps me try to figure out not what I am most comfortable with, but actually, what I am least comfortable with, since my criteria are opposing power-over and trying to facilitate more justice. Like everyone here.
So, respectfully, I really think you are off the mark with the intents (and insults) you lob my way.
I must say that, contrary to you, I fail to be illuminated by your sarcasm about my cluelessness in daring to suggest that someone is disrespecting women by repeatedly ignoring women's requests - notably your own - that men not dominate a thread about women's wear. So it goes (the language barrier, I guess). For what it's worth, you may notice I never broached the issue here until now that you're bringing it up. Very strange.
As for your claim that I "resurrected"* a thread to bait Cueball, it was Bacchus I took on for an extraordinarily offensive statement about women's experiences in the pornography industry. I posted here because this is an issue that is important to my work.
*(Are you suggesting that issues should be closed after a week or a month of inactivity?)
So, I am not responsible for Cueball deciding to take me on about something as obvious as rebutting Bacchus' claim and changing the subject and I don't expect to debate him, just as I have avoided doing so in recent weeks. Not my cup of teeth...
[ 27 October 2007: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]
Take you on? What I did was post the rest of the article you linked too that you decided not to include.
It didn't relate to Bacchus' point.
Of course it did. You basicly claimed that the argument you presented represented the entire body of feminist theory regarding pornography. That is not true, and you know it.
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]I disagree.[/b]
of course you would.
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[b]So, respectfully, I really think you are off the mark[/b]
No actually I am not.
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[b] with the intents (and insults) you lob my way. [/b]
martin, piss off.
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[b]I must say that, contrary to you, I feel to be illuminated by your sarcasm about my cluelessness in daring to suggest that someone is disrespecting women by repeatedly ignoring women's requests that men not dominate a thread about women's wear. [/b]
martin, piss off, you are being more disrespectful...
quote:
[b]As for your claim that I "resurrected"* a thread to bait Cueball, it was Bacchus I took on for an extraordinarily offensive statement about women's experiences in the pornography industry. I posted here because this is an issue that is important to my work.
*(Are you suggesting that issues should be closed after a week or a month of inactivity?)[/b]
It was over 100 posts and new thread had been started with the same topic title and is showing on TAT, so yes you resurrected it, NOT to comment on it, but to comment upon how many posts cueball, and men made, and how disrespectfull it is of women.
I brought it up in this thread only to link to the rabble reactions thread I started, and to which you responded in. And to tell you to stay out of the feminist forum if you are going to continue to disrespect the space by calling other men disrespectful because you what, believe somehow you a man should be rescuing the feminist forum?!
YOU may have though Bacchus comment was extraordinarily offsensive, but YOU are NOT the voice of women martin.
quote:
[b]So, I am not responsible for Cueball deciding to take me on about something as obvious as rebutting Bacchus' claim and changing the subject and I don't expect to debate him, just as I have avoided doing so in recent weeks. Not my cup of teeth...[/b]
Piss off, who are you kidding you went to the other thread in the feminist forum just to trash cueball, and now you are pretending holier than thou.
Seriously martin, stay out of the feminist forum, you are no stellar example of how men should behave in the feminist forum!
Um some of my clients are the porn industry, I don't work IN the porn industry. There is a difference. Or does the guy that repairs their cameras or paints a set IN the porn industry?
And I do not presume to speak for any group or act like their rep, as you so often do martin. As you blithely ignore anyone's (female, male, trans, gay, lesbian , bi) personal experience or evidence if it in any way contradicts your view of the world of feminism.
Good luck telling women (especially here) how THEY should feel, act or think. Wasn't it men continually defining a womens life and experience what started feminism in the first place?
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Good luck telling women (especially here) how THEY should feel, act or think.
I guess that when an argument is this weak/unsubstantiated, all some people can do is to reiterate it endlessly. Pace: I won't comment on it anymore.
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I guess that when an argument is this weak/unsubstantiated, all some people can do is to reiterate it endlessly.
Pretty much the defining statement for all your arguments martin, but I'll stop commenting
pace
A modest proposal: the case for fair trade porn
We have fair trade coffee and humanely raised pork. So why can’t we create a market for ethically sourced pornography? A couple of decades ago, people didn’t give much thought to their food’s provenance. We didn’t care about carbon footprints or the working conditions of the poor Africans who sold us our coffee beans. Slowly, however, consumption habits began to shift under the weight of scientific evidence and cultural change. We’re becoming a little more selective in our consumer choices.Yet not with that multi-billion dollar white elephant: pornography. We hear rumblings here and there about the sexual trafficking of women and children, and it’s always a relief when a criminal ring is busted for what’s euphemistically called “abuse.” It’s reassuring to know that whatever was going on in the far reaches of a few sick minds has little to do with our own primitive — but relatively harmless — impulses.
But do porn consumers ever think about where their porn is sourced? What a downer! No one wants to hear about drug-addicted runaways or Albanian teenage sex slaves. Nobody wants to imagine STD infections on movie sets or the life circumstances that would impel a woman to engage in physically punishing sexual acts on camera. (And just Google the word “bukkake” if you want a quick education in the mainstreaming of fringe sex acts.)
Part of the problem is our reluctance to acknowledge the pornification of contemporary life. If we can relegate porn to the margins of our cultural conversation, we can pretend it only touches a small minority of adult men, rather than the vast majority of Americans, many even in their first or second decade of life.
Good curve ball. CF.
As far as I know, ethical source porn does exist (though of course, that whole idea runs into the question of whether objectification is by definition unethical) . A personal rather than an asolute moral question, I'd say.
There are enough freelancers, enough companies for which profit is not the only motive, and there are certainly enough enthusiasts who have no professional motive whatsoever.
Still doesn't change the fact that the exploitative porn and objectification industry is a huge, powerful and destructive force. But if the question is whether alternatives exist? Of course - again, so long as one considers this as an area which is not absolutely wrong.
although to be fair, after reading a dozen or so articles by Jensen, he pretty much is sticking to the mainstream world of porn. the racist stuff, the violent DVDA, DP, gang bang, hairless, calling women degrading names, "gonzo" etc. stuff...he really doesn't talk at all about the non mainstream world of porn, although he does go so far as to say that ALL porn is harmful.
but i get the impression he's not looking at all the alternative-to-the-mainstream porn that exists, or really making that part of his analysis and fair enough, it probably doesn't represent the majority of what people are watching.
personally, i don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to watch people have sex. humans have always enjoyed that. The problem is when people specifically get pleasure from watching others be degraded, humiliated, exploited etc. and i think most sane people would say the same thing if it were porn or anything else. There's something wrong with taking pleasure from somone elses pain.
@ milo204
Now that last paragraph opens up a whole different can of worms.
I can't say as I agree, and I'd be careful about saying that anyone's desire is "wrong". Because for sure whatever you or I think is desirable, there is certain to be someone, somewhere, who thinks it is devilry.
Sex is like food in many ways, including the fact that if something is not to your liking there's a good chance you might find it disgusting or shocking. There are plenty of things I don't like and don't understand, but the only thing I see as wrong is when it becomes non-consensual, or manipulative.
Also, it is one thing for people who know what they want to do whatever they want to. It is quite another to have these things completely out of control in the mass media giving impressionable young people a warped and hateful image of themseives, sex and personal relationships.
As you say, a lot of this is specific to the mainstream.
i guess you're thinking of consensual BDSM and the like? i have no problem with that but i guess my dillema comes from things that come across as forced sex/rape in porn where the woman is not portrayed as being a willing participant that is enjoying or consenting to the experience...
Jensen mentions a few examples such as gagging, some anal porn, bukkake etc as things where the woman is portrayed as being forced or coerced into the act, and suffering during the act itself but being forced to continue. I would add to that some of the sick rape oriented porn from japan , the american "sleep sex" where women are portrayed as being raped in their sleep, the "bang bus" where women are lured into a van with the promise of money, then kicked out on the side of a deserted highway, sometimes with the men stealing their clothes and belongings (purse, etc..) and not paid and things like that.
they basically, even if it is fake, are portraying non consensual acts as positive and to me that's really fucked.
I'd say we agree on that milo204. I think any really edgy material is potentially dangerous when it is just tossed out on the open market, and a lot of it - like some of the things you describe - are not edge play, but rather exercises in hatred.
Candida Royalle has a line of female friendly erotica. You can get them at Good for Her in Toronto and other places, I'm sure. The women in the films are empowered and wonder of wonders, people are actually shown putting on condoms! Most pornography simply objectifies women; at best it treats them with disrespect and at worst with hatred. Stripping off your inhibitions along with your clothes can be great fun in a mutually respectful relationship. Erotica, role playing, sex toys, etc. can enhance the fun (and the relationship). It takes work to make a relationship work, but the rewards are well worth it.
