Concern widens over 'anti-religion' book

I enjoyed Pullman's trilogy (and there's a 4th book out now I believe), as did my children.

But I agree they should be pulled from Catholic school libraries.

I actually believe all books should be pulled from Catholic school libraries.

They just confuse the kids.

"Oh, the agony of difficult choices! These poor academics have to wrestle with such complicated issues! Should a book be banned because the author is an atheist? Well, you see, it all depends!"

I think you're being a little bit unfair to that academic if you're including her in your statement. I happen to know that she's written several excellent articles on Pullman's trilogy, and even won an award for one (in fact, that's probably why a reporter talked to her), so I don't think she was saying at all that the book should be banned or not read. In fact, reading between the lines of her comment, I think she was suggesting that they are unquestionably books of "literary excellence" and that "literary excellence" should trump doctrine. Of course, thinking people of whatever belief system, whether atheist or religious) should welcome them as an opportunity to explore both literary excellence and doctrine with children.

But I haven't read the trilogy. Maybe someone who has would like to comment in more detail on the books.

Suddenly these books are all atheistic and anti-god, now that a movie is coming out. I guess these book-banning heathens don't even read.

Anyway, if the problem is not only work that attacks or undermines religion, but the very fact that the author is an atheist, then these people had better get off their asses and start lobbying to ban all sorts of stuff.

Excerpting about 100 names from [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists]this long list of atheists[/url] and sorting by first name... includes over 2 dozen Nobel laureates:

* A. J. Ayer (1910–1989): Philosopher and advocate of logical positivism. Ayer was not an atheist in the sense of asserting that God does not exist, since he viewed such a claim as meaningless. However, he has been classified as a "practical atheist," who finds no reason to worship a deity whose existence cannot be verified.[125][126]
* Alan Turing (1912–1954): English mathematician, logician, and cryptographer. Turing is often considered to be the father of modern computer science. The Turing Award, often recognized as the "Nobel Prize of computing", is named after him.[211][212]
* Albert Camus (1913–1960): French philosopher and novelist, a luminary of existentialism. He won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1957.[128][21]
* Alfred Kinsey (1894–1956): American biologist, sexologist and professor of entomology and zoology.[187]
* Amartya Kumar Sen (1933—): 1998 Nobel Laureate in Economics.[201][202][203][204]
* Ambrose Bierce (1842–1914?): American writer, author of The Devil's Dictionary.[30]
* Ayn Rand (1905–1982): Russian-born American author and founder of Objectivism.[56]
* Baron d'Holbach (1723–89): French philosopher and encyclopedist, most famous as being one of the first outspoken atheists in Europe.[135]
* Bertrand Russell, (1872–1970): British philosopher and mathematician. He won the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1950. Though he considered himself an agnostic in a purely philosophical context, he said that the label atheist conveyed a more accurate understanding of his views in a popular context.[144]
* Billy Joel (1949—): American singer, songwriter, and pianist.[117]
* Bjцrk (1965—): Icelandic Singer/Song writer, Composer and Producer.[111]
* Brannon Braga (1965–): American TV producer and writer, creator of Star Trek: Enterprise.[86]
* Camille Paglia (1947—): American post-feminist literary and cultural critic.[52]
* China Miйville (1972—): British Science Fiction author.[50]
* Christer Fuglesang (1957—), Swedish astronaut and physicist.[181]
* Christopher Hitchens (1949—): Author, journalist and essayist.[38]
* Claude Adrien Helvйtius (1715–71): French philosopher whose ethical and social views helped shape the school of utilitarianism later made famous by Jeremy Bentham.[133]
* Claude Shannon (1916–2001): American electrical engineer and mathematician, has been called "the father of information theory", and was the founder of practical digital circuit design theory.[205]
* Daniel Dennett (1942—): American philosopher, author of Breaking the Spell.[131]
* Dave Barry (1947–): American humor columnist and author of Big Trouble, among others.[29]
* David Gilmour (1946—): English guitarist and vocalist with Pink Floyd.[114]
* David Sloan Wilson (1949—): American evolutionary biologist, son of Sloan Wilson, proponent of multilevel selection theory and author of several popular books on evolution.[217]
* David Suzuki (1936—): Canadian university professor, science broadcaster and environmental activist.[25]
* Denis Diderot (1713–84): editor-in-chief of the Encyclopйdie, who succeeded in bringing about "a revolution in men's minds."[133]
* Diagoras (5th century BCE): Ancient Greek poet and sophist known as the Atheist of Milos, who declared that there were no Gods.[132]
* Douglas Adams (1952–2001): British radio and television writer, author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.[27]
* Ernst Mayr (1904–2005): a renowned taxonomist, tropical explorer, ornithologist, historian of science, and naturalist. He was one of the 20th century's leading evolutionary biologists.[189]
* Friedrich Nietzsche (1844–1900): German Existentialist philosopher and known as the founder of Nihilism whose Beyond Good and Evil sought to refute traditional notions of morality. Nietzsche penned a memorable secular statement of the Doctrine of Eternal Recurrence in Thus Spake Zarathustra and is forever associated with the phrase, "God is dead" (first seen in his book, The Gay Science).[142]
* Frйdйric Joliot-Curie (1900–1958): French physicist and Nobel Laureate in Chemistry in 1935.[185]
* G. H. Hardy (1877–1947): a prominent English mathematician, known for his achievements in number theory and mathematical analysis.[183][184]
* Gao Xingjian (1940—): Chinese йmigrй novelist, dramatist, critic, translator, stage director and painter. Winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2000.[67]
* Gene Wilder (1933—): American actor best known for his role as Willy Wonka.[109]
* George Bernard Shaw (1856–1950): Irish playwright, only person to have been awarded both a Nobel Prize (Nobel Prize in Literature in 1925) and an Oscar (Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay in 1939 for Pygmalion).[62][63]
* George Meyer (1956—): Producer and writer for The Simpsons.[102]
* Giacomo Leopardi (1798–1837): Italian poet, linguist, essayist and philosopher. Leopardi is legendary as an out-and-out nihilist.[45]
* Greg Graffin (1964—): Lead singer of the punk rock band Bad Religion. Received his zoology PhD with the thesis Monism, Atheism and the Naturalist Worldview: Perspectives from Evolutionary Biology.[115][116]
* Harold Kroto (1939—): 1996 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry.[186]
* Harold Pinter (1930—): British playwright, screenwriter, poet, actor, director, author, and political activist, best known for his plays The Birthday Party (1957), The Caretaker (1959), The Homecoming (1964), and Betrayal (1978). Winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2005.[53]
* Hermann Joseph Muller (1890–1967): American geneticist and educator, best known for his work on the physiological and genetic effects of radiation (X-ray mutagenesis). He won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1946.[194]
* Ibn Warraq (1946—): Best-selling author and secularist scholar of Islam currently living in the United States. He is a Muslim apostate and an outspoken critic of Islam who has written extensively on what he views as the oppressive nature of Islam.[66]
* Isaac Asimov (1920–1992): Russian-born American author of science fiction and popular science books.[28]
* J. Michael Straczynski (1954—): American writer and producer, creator of Babylon 5.[107]
* Jacques Monod (1910–1976): French biologist who won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1965 for discoveries concerning genetic control of enzyme and virus synthesis.[192]
* James D. Watson (1928—): 1962-Nobel-laureate co-discover of the structure of DNA.[213][214]
* Janeane Garofalo (1964—): American actor and comedian.[78]
* Jean Meslier (1678–1733): French village Catholic priest who was found, on his death, to have written a book-length philosophical essay, entitled Common Sense but commonly referred to as Meslier's Testament, promoting atheism.[139][140]
* Jean-Paul Sartre (1905–1980): French existentialist philosopher, dramatist and novelist who declared that he had been an atheist from age twelve.[145] Although he regarded God as a self-contradictory concept, he still thought of it as an ideal toward which people strive.[146] He rejected the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1964. According to Sartre, his most-repeated summary of his existentialist philosophy, "Existence precedes essence," implies that humans must abandon traditional notions of having been designed by a divine creator.[147]
* Jonathan Miller (1934—): British physician, actor, theatre and opera director, and television presenter. Wrote and presented the 2004 television series, Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief, exploring the roots of his own atheism and investigating the history of atheism in the world.[190]
* Josй Saramago (1922—): Portuguese writer, playwright and journalist. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1998.[59]
* Julien Offray de La Mettrie (1709–51): French physician and philosopher, earliest materialist writer of the Enlightenment, claimed as a founder of cognitive science.[141]
* Karl Marx (1818–83): German author of Das Kapital, known for his assertion that "Religion is... the opium of the people."[138]
* Katharine Hepburn (1907–2003): American actress who appeared in 53 films from 1932 to 1994; winner of four Academy Awards for Best Actress.[92]
* Kurt Vonnegut (1922–2007): American author, writer of Cat's Cradle, among other books. Vonnegut said "I am an atheist (or at best a Unitarian who winds up in churches quite a lot)."[21]
* Leonard Susskind (1940—): American theoretical physicist; a founding father of superstring theory and professor of theoretical physics at Stanford University.[209]
* Linus Pauling (1901–1994): Nobel Laureate in Chemistry (1954) and Peace (1962); considered by many to be the greatest chemist of the 20th century.[178]
* Linus Torvalds (1969—): Finnish software engineer, creator of the Linux kernel.[210]
* Ludwig Andreas Feuerbach (1804–1872): German philosopher whose major work, The Essence of Christianity, maintains that religion and divinity are projections of human nature.[134]
* Luis Buсuel (1900–1983): Spanish-born Mexican film-maker, activist of the surrealist movement. Known for his one-liner, "Thank God I'm still an atheist."[87]
* Michael Kinsley (1951—): American political journalist, commentator, and television host.[96]
* Michael Smith (1932–2000): British-born Canadian biochemist and Nobel Laureate in Chemistry in 1993.[206]
* Michel Houellebecq (1958—): French novelist.[39]
* Mikhail Bakunin (1814–1876): Russian philosopher, writer and anarchist.[127]
* Mikhail Gorbachev (1931—): Former Soviet president and winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990.[157][158][159]
* Nadine Gordimer (1923—): South African writer and political activist. Her writing has long dealt with moral and racial issues, particularly apartheid in South Africa. She won the Nobel Prize in literature in 1991.[33][34]
* Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov (1844–1908): Russian Nationalist composer, member of "The Five", best-known for the tone poem Scheherazade.[121]
* Paul D. Boyer (1918—): American biochemist and Nobel Laureate in Chemistry in 1997.[173]
* Paul Dirac (1902–1984): British theoretical physicist, founder of quantum mechanics, predicted the existence of antimatter; won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1933.[177][178]
* Paul Nurse (1949—): 2001 Nobel Laureate in Physiology or Medicine.[196]
* Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792–1822): British Romantic poet, contemporary and associate of John Keats and Lord Byron, and author of The Necessity of Atheism.[64]
* Peter Atkins (1940—): Professor of chemistry at Lincoln College, Oxford in the University of Oxford, England. Also a prolific writer of popular chemistry textbooks. [172]
* Peter D. Mitchell (1920–1992): 1978-Nobel-laureate British biochemist. Atheist mother, and himself atheist from age 15.[191]
* Philip Pullman (1946—): CBE, British author of His Dark Materials fantasy trilogy for young adults, which have atheism as a major theme.[55]
* Phillip Adams (1939—): Australian broadcaster, writer, film-maker, left-wing radical thinker and iconoclast. He was the Australian Humanist of the Year in 1987.[85]
* Pierre Loti (1850–1923): French novelist and travel writer.[48]
* Primo Levi (1919–1987): Italian novelist and chemist, survivor of Auschwitz concentration camp.[46]
* Pдr Lagerkvist (1891–1974): Swedish author who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1951. He used religious motifs and figures from the Christian tradition without following the doctrines of the church.[42]
* Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872—1958): British composer. Despite the variety of his works with religious connections, Vaughan Williams was decidedly not a believer.[123] He once said that "there is no reason why an atheist could not write a good mass," then proved it by writing a superb one. He later became an agnostic.[124]
* Richard Dawkins (1941—): British zoologist, biologist, creator of the concepts of the selfish gene and the meme; outspoken atheist and popularizer of science, author of The God Delusion and founder of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science.[176]
* Richard Feynman (1918–1988): American theoretical physicist, best known for his work in renormalizing Quantum electrodynamics and his path integral formulation of Quantum Mechanics . He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1965.[179]
* Richard J. Roberts (1943—): British biochemist and molecular biologist. He won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1993 for the discovery of introns in eukaryotic DNA and the mechanism of gene-splicing.[198][199][200]
* Richard Leakey (1944—): Kenyan paleontologist, archaeologist and conservationist.[188]
* Ron Reagan (1958—): American magazine journalist, board member of the politically activist Creative Coalition, son of former U. S. President Ronald Reagan.[57]
* Rutka Laskier (1929–1943): Polish Jew who was killed at Auschwitz concentration camp at the age of 14. Because of her diary, on display at Israel's Holocaust museum, she has been dubbed the "Polish Anne Frank." [43]
* Salman Rushdie (1947—): Indian-born British essayist and author of fiction.[58]
* Sarah Polley (1979—): Canadian actress and director.[104]
* Sean M. Carroll (1956—): Theoretical cosmologist specializing in dark energy and general relativity.[174]
* Sigmund Freud (1856–1939): Father of psychoanalysis.[180]
* Sir Arthur C. Clarke (1917—): British scientist and science-fiction author.[31]
* Sir Ian McKellen (1939—): English Stage and Screen Actor.[99]
* Stanislaw Lem (1921–2006): Polish science fiction novelist and essayist.[44]
* Steve Wozniak (1950—): Co. founder of Apple Computer and inventor of the Apple I and Apple II.[218]
* Steven Pinker (1954—): American psychologist.[197]
* Steven Soderbergh (1963—): American filmmaker, Academy Award-winning director of such films as Traffic, Erin Brockovich, Ocean's Eleven, and Sex, Lies and Videotape.[105]
* Steven Weinberg (1933—): American theoretical physicist. He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1979 for combining electromagnetism and the weak force into the electroweak force.[215][216]
* Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (1910–1995): Indian American astrophysicist known for his theoretical work on the structure and evolution of stars. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1983.[175]
* Terry Pratchett (1948—): English Fantasy author known for his satirical Discworld series.[54]
* Vitaly Ginzburg (1916—): Russian theoretical physicist and astrophysicist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2003. He was also awarded the Wolf Prize in Physics in 1994/95.[182]
* Woody Allen (1935—): American film director, actor and comedian. Allen said that "To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition."[72]

[ 23 November 2007: Message edited by: Albireo ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Here's an excellent argument for pulling public funding from these schools. How about a new rule: if your school is run by a bunch of book-burning religious nutjobs, you DON'T get public funding. Period.[/b]

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Works for me! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

quote:

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Originally posted by Snuckles:
[b]

Read it [url=http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/279163]here.[/url][/b]

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I wonder what they're gonna do when the movie version is released in a couple of weeks. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I am allways quoting the unionist:

quote:

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I actually believe all books should be pulled from Catholic school libraries.

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With a twinge of regret for taking the low road of 'tossing insults', I offer this:

We have come this far:
"Separation of Government and Religion"

Maybe someday:
"Separation of Schools and Religion"

But it has allways been:
"Separation of Thinking and Religion"

... and ya, separate public funding from religious schools for sure!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[b]Here's an excellent argument for pulling public funding from these schools. How about a new rule: if your school is run by a bunch of book-burning religious nutjobs, you DON'T get public funding. Period.[/b]

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I 2nd that motion, if it's already been 2nd 'ed, then never mind

[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

expect more of this as more people vocalize a return to traditional- family - Christian values.

The religious zealots have been setting themselves up to set the agendas in our public spaces.

Look for key words like "intolerance" and "bigotry" being thrown around when censorship of books is challenged by librarians, teachers, GLBT advocacy groups, secularists etc .

[ 25 November 2007: Message edited by: TemporalHominid ]

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071126.wpullman26/B... as if the movie has already been "sanitized" to mollify religious fanatics...[/url]

quote:

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Days after an Ontario school board temporarily pulled copies of Philip Pullman's popular fantasy novel The Golden Compass from their shelves, the people bringing it to the big screen, including actor Daniel Craig, have come to its defence.

"These books are not anti-religious. I think that mainly they're anti-misuse of power - whether it's religious or political," Mr. Craig, best known for his portrayal of James Bond, said after being asked about the controversy dogging the novel. [...]

Interestingly, [b]some Pullman fan sites have complained that the studio behind the film, New Line, has diluted the books' criticism of religious authority[/b].

The film's director, Chris Weitz, who hopes to film Mr. Pullman's entire trilogy, echoed Mr. Craig's sentiments. "I don't happen to believe that His Dark Materials is an anti-religious or anti-Catholic series of books. I think that Philip Pullman is against the abuse of religion, the abuse of God for political power." [...]

Neil MacCarthy, communications director for the [b]Catholic Archdiocese of Toronto[/b], said yesterday his organization "expects our school boards, their leadership and our Catholic trustees to ensure responsible decisions are made about the books they offer in their schools' libraries. It is our understanding that several boards are taking a look at this particular book."

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I suppose the Catholic Archdiocese has a point. If a popular well-written series of books got children thinking about religion in a critical way, it could affect the Archdiocese's future revenues. Best to burn take a look at such books right now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
[b]My understanding from the thread is that there is anti-Catholic sentiment therein ?

If so, I can't see what would be objectionable in monitoring those books more closely.[/b]

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You haven't even read the books - and you are concluding [i]from this thread[/i] that it would be unobjectionable to "monitor" them more closely?

Because they may contain "anti-Catholic sentiment"?

I thought political views like yours were overthrown by the French and American revolutions.

That was over 200 years ago. I wouldn't want to rush you, though.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
[b]I don't know why they would be banned if there wasn't something explicitly anti-Catholic or anti-God in there.[/b]

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So (and I don't want to presume here, or rush you, or miss any two-letter words...):

Catholic school boards would be justified in banning books that had explicitly anti-Catholic or anti-God sentiment?

If that is true, they should not simply be de-funded. They should have their certificate-granting powers removed, even if operated as private schools.

Parents still insistent on such a high level of thought control can try to force their kids into convents or monasteries. Although I'm afraid that even there, the Devil's ideas have been known to reach.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
[b]Has anybody fully understood what is offensive in these books ? My understanding from the thread is that there is anti-Catholic sentiment therein ?
...
[/b]

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Here's a quote from the second book of the trilogy, The Subtle Knife, which should answer your question.

quote:

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Ruta Skadi stood. Her white arms gleamed in the firelight; her eyes glittered so brightly that even the farthest witch could see the play of expression on her vivid face.

"Sisters," she began, "let me tell you what is happening, and who it is that we must fight. For there is a war coming. I don't know who will join with us, but I know whom we must fight. It is the Magisterium, the Church. For all its history - and that's not long by our lives, but it's many, many of theirs--it's tried to suppress and control every natural impulse. And when it can't control them, it cuts them out. Some of you have seen what they did at Bolvangar. And that was horrible, but it is not the only such place, not the only such practice. Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did--not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to."

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My jaw dropped when I read that, with a response mixing "That was awesome!" and "I can't believe this book isn't more controversial!" Naturally the coming movie has changed the controversy bit (as was pointed out by Albireo, those interested in banning books don't seem to read them otherwise).

Yes, the books are quite clearly and strongly critical of organized religion and of Christianity in particular, which is referred to as a "very convincing mistake." The question for religious schools then becomes to behave exactly like the fictional Magisterium and try to suppress critical thought.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Hardner:
[b]As long as they have funding, then they should be able to dictate what is in their libraries, within reasonable limits.[/b]

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The implementation of intellectual freedom in our libraries is far from perfect. But when you throw that principle out the window completely and start dictating which ideas get to be included and which must be censored, then you don't have a library in any meaningful sense of the word, just a collection of books.