A Cutting Tradition
Sun, 2008-01-20 07:25
#1
A Cutting Tradition
Sun, 2008-01-20 07:25
#2
[img]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/01/20/magazine/20circ1.jpg[/img]
![http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/01/20/magazine/20circ1.jpg[/img]](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/01/20/magazine/20circ1.jpg[/img]){kind=link}
A Cutting Tradition
quote:
When a girl is taken — usually by her mother — to a free circumcision event held each spring in Bandung, Indonesia, she is handed over to a small group of women who, swiftly and yet with apparent affection, cut off a small piece of her genitals.
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/01/20/magazine/20080120_CIRCUMCISI... a Female-Circumcision Ceremony [/url]
quote:
According to Lukman Hakim, the foundation’s chairman of social services, there are three “benefits” to circumcising girls.“One, it will stabilize her libido,” he said through an interpreter. “Two, it will make a woman look more beautiful in the eyes of her husband. And three, it will balance her psychology.”
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/magazine/20circumcision-t.html?ref=mag... Article[/url]
Young boys are also circumcised around the world but the only difference it would seem is the albility to experience sexual pleasure is not affected unlike these girls. There is no mention in the article but I would presume they would never be able to experience sexual pleasure at least through the clitoris.
Is that a fair reason for feminists to try and ban this practice. Both local women and feminists from around the world?
Sun, 2008-01-20 07:53
#3
I don't have enough expletives in my vocabulary to adequately wade into this. It's horrible beyond words.
Sun, 2008-01-20 08:31
#4
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]Is that a fair reason for feminists to try and ban this practice. Both local women and feminists from around the world?[/b]
WTH? I have serious issues with a male starting this in the feminist forum, and asking a question like that.
Sun, 2008-01-20 09:16
#5
Maysie
I'm not sure how many times we need to go over this issue, and I wonder what Ibelong's motivation is in bringing this up, something neither new nor suffering from a lack of discussion.
So it breaks down into two groups of feminists, as the mythology goes:
1. Western liberal feminists who are "afraid" to talk about the issue for fear of being called racist. (They get yelled at by group #2)
2. Western liberal feminists who speak out dramatically (and problematically) about such practices, and in so doing, reiterate the racist trope of "countries with brown people are so much more barbaric/less civilized than our wonderful Western societies here in U.S./U.K./Canada."
Does that about cover it, Ibelong? Happy now? [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
I'd like everyone to guess what I'm about to say next. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
What are the women/feminists in the countries affected by FGM doing, and what have they been doing for the past, oh, [b]decades[/b] about gradually modifying/eliminating this practice?
Google is your friend.
A secondary, and far less important question is, how can Western feminists support and engage in the struggles that are going on in the countries in which FGM is an issue? I say far less important only because rarely do those who begin these discussions in the context of western liberal discussion boards want to actually help to affect change. In which case the only way we can realistically help, if we are not members of the community (ies) and live far away, is to send money to NGOs, or help raise awareness.
BTW, this thread doesn't count as "raising awareness".
Edited to add: Ibelong, if you asked your original question in the OP from a place of truly not knowing where feminists on babble are at with this issue, then I apologize for my overly snarky response. My experience on babble is that discussions like this go nowhere productive, and specifically, racism is always reinforced, reiterated and repackaged to be "progressive-friendly". My response to most such discussions, in brief, is, "ick."
[ 20 January 2008: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]
Sun, 2008-01-20 09:49
#6
Hear hear!
Sun, 2008-01-20 09:53
#7
I guess I brought it up because I came across it and wondered what people thought about it as a cultural tradition and the difference if any with the tradition of cutting off boys foreskin.
I realize the arguments against it, I was hoping to hear someone defend it, not so I could attack them but just to hear the other side.
As far as feminism and myself being a male, I'm not judging in anyway, nor do I think the article judges anyone or the practice.
The most interesting part was what I quoted - a man in charge of women's health and a reason given for the practice by the man that it would make the girls more attractive to future husbands.
Sun, 2008-01-20 10:05
#8
Im sorry that it's been discussed much before, I didn't see another thread about it, I'm also dissapointed you assume my motives to be somehow to judge "barbaric" in yr words people. I think yr own prejudices are showing. They are just people like you and me, the new angle on the story is that it's a government program.
Sun, 2008-01-20 10:31
#9
Wow. I just saw this story in the sunday Times magazine. Very very disturbing. I would strongly recommend everyone take a look.
Sun, 2008-01-20 10:38
#10
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]Im sorry that it's been discussed much before, I didn't see another thread about it, I'm also dissapointed you assume my motives to be somehow to judge "barbaric" in yr words people. I think yr own prejudices are showing. They are just people like you and me, the new angle on the story is that it's a government program.[/b]
I believe that BCG responded quite accurately and with true observation of your actions as from this above it is quite apparent that you had an agenda, or were expecting specific commentary. As can be seen with your initial question in the OP, which included "is that a fair reason". That you also included the observation "local feminists" and "around the world" underscores that you are fully aware that there are stances taken against it.
So pardon me, if I call full out BS on your post above. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-01-20 10:49
#11
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
[b]Wow. I just saw this story in the sunday Times magazine. Very very disturbing. I would strongly recommend everyone take a look.[/b]
Why would you strongly recommend it? Why do you find it disturbing?
Sun, 2008-01-20 10:55
#12
Excuse me but why are you handing someone his head because he's horrified by female genital mutilation? Not all babblers read "La deuxieme sexe" in high school and realize that this practice has been publicized and condemned for decades. Is everybody supposed to do research before they start threads on babble?
Sun, 2008-01-20 11:06
#13
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
[b]Excuse me but why are you handing someone his head because he's horrified by female genital mutilation? Not all babblers read "La deuxieme sexe" in high school and realize that this practice has been publicized and condemned for decades. Is everybody supposed to do research before they start threads on babble?[/b]
First, if they are ON babble, they have hardly been in an information free bubble for the last several decades. That is a given.
Second, BCG said it all, and IMV there is an agenda at work.
Sun, 2008-01-20 11:06
#14
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]There is no mention in the article but I would presume they would never be able to experience sexual pleasure at least through the clitoris.Is that a fair reason for feminists to try and ban this practice. Both local women and feminists from around the world?[/b]
You think that's bad?
I just found another cult where they recruit both men and women to stop experiencing sexual pleasure [b]for the rest of their lives[/b], on pain of being sent to hell.
If that's not bad enough, they engage in "symbolic" ceremonies of cannibalism, including consuming the flesh and blood of the victim - over and over and over again!
Are these fair reasons for feminists to try and ban these practices? Both local women and feminists from around the world?
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Sun, 2008-01-20 11:08
#15
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
[b]Excuse me but why are you handing someone his head because he's horrified by female genital mutilation? Not all babblers read "La deuxieme sexe" in high school and realize that this practice has been publicized and condemned for decades. Is everybody supposed to do research before they start threads on babble?[/b]
There are things that cannot be the subject of reasonable discussion on babble. This is one of them.
Sun, 2008-01-20 11:24
#16
Maysie
unionist, marry me.
Sun, 2008-01-20 11:46
#17
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]unionist, marry me.[/b]
Love too, but what about my vow? [img]frown.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-01-20 11:46
#18
New people come in who don't necessarily read through everything that has been covered here before, so that, in conjunction with a poor choice of question for an opening post, might raise suspicions as to the intent of the poster. Maybe if someone knows where it is, because I can't seem to find it anywhere, they could link in the thread that examined this practice. The other thing is that its probably not a good idea anyway for guys to hang out here for too long, as we could only superficially contribute, if at all.
Sun, 2008-01-20 11:53
#19
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]New people come in who don't necessarily read through everything that has been covered here before, so that, in conjunction with a poor choice of question for an opening post, might raise suspicions as to the intent of the poster. [/b]
Yeah, I agree that there was reason for suspicion that the question was not naively raised and that there was an agenda.
Sun, 2008-01-20 13:54
#20
Whatever. I found it an interesting story, It's obviously a taboo subject. Unionist of course brings up catholism(big suprise that he switches any discussion usually with his first post) when I've never defended the strange rituals of any religion on here. But any discussion of another culture must be a critism of it or somehow racist because they look different than me.
Sorry I brought it up.
Purifying the ranks hey - enjoy
Sun, 2008-01-20 14:20
#21
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]Sorry I brought it up. Purifying the ranks hey - enjoy[/b]
You have no idea of what it's like in here, don't go, help me please!!!! Seriously though, don't hit the bricks just yet. You'll know when you've truly crossed the forbidden line, but since you can still post, it means it hasn't happened yet.
Sun, 2008-01-20 14:27
#22
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]You have no idea of what it's like in here, don't go, help me please!!!! Seriously though, don't hit the bricks just yet. You'll know when you've truly crossed the forbidden line, but since you can still post, it means it hasn't happened yet.[/b]
I am always quietly amused at the antics of those who think they are being covert.
However, my amusement doesn't go so far as to be amused with oblique trashing of babble(rs).
Sun, 2008-01-20 14:31
#23
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b] Unionist of course brings up catholism(big suprise that he switches any discussion usually with his first post) when I've never defended the strange rituals of any religion on here. But any discussion of another culture must be a critism of it or somehow racist because they look different than me.[/b]
Wow, are you paranoid or what?
You found some offensive rituals in the course of your comprehensive research into cultural oddities.
I just thought I'd share some of the ones I had found.
And now you're calling yourself [b]"racist"[/b]??
Don't be so hard on yourself, buddy.
I'm sure there's a far more innocent explanation for your behaviour.
Sun, 2008-01-20 15:26
#24
The funny thing is I'm one of the few on here with an open mind it seems. I didn't say anything for or against the practice, I just wanted to discuss it. The photos caught my eye first, and I thought what some of the mother's might say and wondered if this is an important day for the girl and her mother, and the family.
Lots of rituals are or have been performed by groups, tribes, religions that outsiders might find strange or offensive in some way.
Maybe my mistake was putting it in the feminist forum and asking the question about feminists when it was cultural angle I was looking at it from and not really a religous angle either as not all Islamic people practice this custom.
Sun, 2008-01-20 15:38
#25
Ibelong:
quote:
The funny thing is I'm one of the few on here with an open mind it seems. I didn't say anything for or against the practice, I just wanted to discuss it.
Heh, I like the insistance that the response you're given here means you've got the only open mind to the subject. Look what you're asking to discuss:
quote:
Is that a fair reason for feminists to try and ban this practice. Both local women and feminists from around the world?
Starting a thread with a rhetorical question (unless you honestly beleive someone is going to answer yes, this is great for women!) and then expecting discussion really isn't a good start. So that would mean you've got some other motives behind your post, and the conversation that followed is the attempt to flush out your hidden motive. If you want to be consistant with the past "Why do you want to stop attacking Muslim nations, won't someone please think of the wimmin!" is a pretty commonly used line.
But posters unwilling to discuss your rhetorical question and hunting for your motive must mean closed minds, no?
Sun, 2008-01-20 15:50
#26
I supopose yr paranioa could be justified by visits from right wing trolls trying to demonize muslims and make excuses about protecting women for wanting to attack their country but I don't think like that at all.
Yes the thread was provocative but I have no hidden agenda. Not that you'll believe me anyways, so give me one of those glib one-liners.
here's mine
Babble Commandment #1
Not used to seeing someone who opinions don't fall into an easily defined category, just use your prejudices.
Sun, 2008-01-20 15:51
#27
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:
[b]But posters unwilling to discuss your rhetorical question and hunting for your motive must mean closed minds, no?[/b]
Well, let's be fair here noise, it is actually our being closed minded.
Closed to such an obvious attempt to frame the debate, along racial/feminist/cultural lines, and closed to whines of victim hood, because people won't buy into an attempt to create a conceptual framework that is trying to say feminists and/or those on the left are hyprocrits, at best, while being able to trash another culture/race. An attempted double whammy so to speak. [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-01-20 15:58
#28
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b] I am always quietly amused at the antics of those who think they are being covert.
However, my amusement doesn't go so far as to be amused with oblique trashing of babble(rs).[/b]
Don't get too mushy, I liked you the way you were. [img]cool.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-01-20 15:59
#29
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]The funny thing is I'm one of the few on here with an open mind it seems. [/b]
Ouch, that's gonna hurt ye.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:06
#30
Maysie
I think it's now time for me to say what I predicted I would say: ick.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:09
#31
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]I supopose yr paranioa could be justified by visits from right wing trolls trying to demonize muslims and make excuses about protecting women for wanting to attack their country but I don't think like that at all.[/b]
It's really an easy inference on that picture you put in there, even with out the bogus question added in. Just look at it. Do you really think the women in that pic had any choice by way of educational background or information other than what was expected of them by rules and traditions imposed by an exclusively male dominant society? By placing it in there as you did, in the context put forth in your post, were you oblivous to the real tragedy going on there.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:10
#32
Did you even read what I wrote - how did i trash any culture or race?
This unbelievable, I asked is the inabilty to experience sexual pleasure enough of a reason to condemn/ban a cultural ritual.
You all assume I believe yes. I hadn't made up my mind, and I didn't realize the rude reactions it would bring, it certainly points out the prejudices in many babblers.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:23
#33
remind
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]I think it's now time for me to say what I predicted I would say: ick.[/b]
Never would miss a chance to enable someone to say "I told ya so". [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:23
#34
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]I have serious issues[/b]
No shit.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:26
#35
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]I asked is the inabilty to experience sexual pleasure enough of a reason to condemn/ban a cultural ritual. You all assume I believe yes. I hadn't made up my mind....[/b]
You hadn't made up your 'mind' about FGM?
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:29
#36
Heh, you're right Remind. Technically right, are you sure you're not a bureaucrat? [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]
quote:
Yes the thread was provocative but I have no hidden agenda.
Wasn't provacative... Was silly. Now if you finish it with "You silly lefties don't understand that invading Afghanistan was the only way to prevent this!" you'd be our standard right-wing troll on the board. I will admit your "I've got an open mind and you don't" is a more unique response.
quote:
Not used to seeing someone who opinions don't fall into an easily defined category, just use your prejudices.
Wait... your question was "Is that a fair reason for feminists to try and ban this practice.". So your opinion fits outside of the yes or no easily defined categories? [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]
ETA:
I see the question a bit now, all this crossposting:
quote:
I asked is the inabilty to experience sexual pleasure enough of a reason to condemn/ban a cultural ritual.
Is inability to experience sexual pleasure really the big issue?
[ 20 January 2008: Message edited by: Noise ]
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:35
#37
Yeah I am against it. But I'm trying to understand their culture. You probably think I'm being sarcastic but I'm not I just try not to judge, I realize now my treatment of this may sound incredibly uninformed and naieve but its been all sincere the whole way.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:44
#38
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]Yeah I am against it. But I'm trying to understand their culture. You probably think I'm being sarcastic but I'm not I just try not to judge, I realize now my treatment of this may sound incredibly uninformed and naieve but its been all sincere the whole way.[/b]
Next time, toss your cowboy hat in first, and if it don't get shot full of holes, maybe the bar keep will pour you up a stiff one. Cause if ye stroll on in like ye own the place, well there ain't no good gonna come of it.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:44
#39
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Koiwai:
[b]No shit.[/b]
Wow, I guess I should be flattered that after your 9 month hiatus in posting, you choose to break it with a personal attack against me. And of note, it is not to far above the very low calbre of your last one. As your last one was telling people what words not to use against white supremacy in the anti-racism forum.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:49
#40
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]
Wow, I guess I should be flattered that after your 9 month hiatus in posting, you choose to break it with a personal attack against me. And of note, it is not to far above the very low calbre of your last one. As your last one was telling people what words not to use against white supremacy in the anti-racism forum.[/b]
Now see, I could have told him that fecal references don't go over well with you.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:50
#41
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]Yeah I am against it. But I'm trying to understand their culture. You probably think I'm being sarcastic but I'm not I just try not to judge, I realize now my treatment of this may sound incredibly uninformed and naieve but its been all sincere the whole way.[/b]
hmm, never before came across anyone claiming naiveness, after they admitted to being provcative.
Sun, 2008-01-20 16:57
#42
Maysie
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]Now see, I could have told him that fecal references don't go over well with you.[/b]
"Over well"? That's a flying crock o' shit and you know it! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sun, 2008-01-20 17:08
#43
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]"Over well"? That's a flying crock o' shit and you know it! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
The backgrounder to that is in the body and soul forum..."racy church sign thread." Had to throw that in here, just had to..
Sun, 2008-01-20 17:16
#44
quote:
Originally posted by Ibelongtonoone:
[b]The funny thing is I'm one of the few on here with an open mind it seems. [/b]
Open at both ends? Figured as much. I think I can help you with that:
1. Shut tight the part called "EXIT".
2. Open the one labelled "ENTRANCE" a lot wider.
3. Enjoy those thoughts, now that they can hang around for a while.
Sun, 2008-01-20 17:23
#45
remind
quote:
Originally posted by bigcitygal:
[b]"Over well"? That's a flying crock o' shit and you know it! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]
No worries BCG, he has been following my postings, making snides wherever possible, since I [i]butted[/i] [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] truths, as opposed vain glorious musings, in that thread he referred to above as being the history for his current snide actions.
[ 20 January 2008: Message edited by: remind ]
Sun, 2008-01-20 17:37
#46
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b] No worries BCG, he has been following my postings, making snides wherever possible, since I [i]butted[/i] [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] truths, as opposed vain glorious musings, in that thread he referred to above as being the history for his current snide actions. [ 20 January 2008: Message edited by: remind ][/b]
Not following, because there's been a dirth of late for much of anything, but whereever the lightbulb turns on and there might, just might be something interesting to spend some time contemplating, there you are, bashing someones brains out. Making light is not the same as making snides, but you'd do a solid if you'd consider me as an antidote against too much seriousness.
Sun, 2008-01-20 17:50
#47
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]Not following, because there's been a dirth of late for much of anything, but whereever the lightbulb turns on and there might, just might be something interesting to spend some time contemplating, there you are, bashing someones brains out. Making light is not the same as making snides, but you'd do a solid if you'd consider me as an antidote against too much seriousness.[/b]
Oh my, yes, dragging your personal angst from thread to thread, deciding that my viewpoints, that are not in agreement, nor conform to, or tolerate, the patriarchial perceptual concepts-- some are trying to promulgate--are bashing brains out, is so[i]solid.[/i]
Do you not realize that what you are doing is stalking me?
Say nothing of the fact that have stated you think patriarchial and right wing discourse is light bulbish moments.
Sun, 2008-01-20 18:04
#48
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b] Oh my, yes, dragging your personal angst from thread to thread, deciding that my viewpoints, that are not in agreement, nor conform to, or tolerate, the patriarchial perceptual concepts-- some are trying to promulgate--are bashing brains out, is so[i]solid.[/i] Do you not realize that what you are doing is stalking me? Say nothing of the fact that have stated you think patriarchial and right wing discourse is light bulbish moments.[/b]
Stalking!? My 'right wing friendly discourse!?' Angst? Really toooo much, not going to comment further, lightly or otherwise, it's beyond my ability to relate.
Sun, 2008-01-20 18:13
#49
remind
quote:
Originally posted by Slumberjack:
[b]Stalking!? My 'right wing friendly discourse!?' Angst? Really toooo much, not going to comment further, lightly or otherwise, it's beyond my ability to relate.[/b]
K, look forward to not seeing you, and that quote you have me saying is not my words. Please do try to not add your own words to others and present it as a quote.
Sun, 2008-01-20 18:23
#50
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
[b]K, look forward to not seeing you, and that quote you have me saying is not my words. Please do try to not add your own words to others and present it as a quote.[/b]
Didn't mean not comment further on anything, just a break from you.
Sun, 2008-01-20 18:28
#51
remind
That's what I meant. [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]