Montreal or Ottawa?

If you're more interested in the event organizer side of your skill-set, I'd recommend Montreal. It's a better draw for international (and even national) conferences, and is a far more open place than Ottawa, which can function as a rather incestuous little club.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lark08:
[b].... I've been living and working in France for about 15 years and will be moving back to Canada in late Spring or early Summer of this year.

I'm originally from Toronto. I learned French here in France so I'm perfectly bilingual. The question is: should I move to Montreal or Ottawa? Does anyone know what the current job markets are in those two cities? I love Montreal but hear the economy isn't that great...
[/b]

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sheesh, strong parallels to my own background; I live in the French Alps right now, and am considering Ottawa/Montreal eventually, too

lived a decade+ in Montreal, definitely a far more dynamic and interesting city of the two, young Europeans I talk to often love it, but every place has pluses and minuses;

re the economy, Montreal and Quebec generally have been doing quite well in recent years;
when I was in Montreal in July 2007 the most recent StatsCan unemployment figures were lower for Montreal than for Toronto, and I saw help-wanted/ now hiring signs all over the place, unlike my years there during the big downward trend

but Ottawa has the Government, and all that entails for translators like yourself (check the guilds and opportuinities on-line), and easy access to the countryside (although no big deal getting to Townships & Laurentians from Montreal)

both good choices, but Montreal the real CITY of the two ...

btw, where in France do you live?

(oops, I see from your profile you are in Paris.... not bad!)

[ 26 January 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]

or, as they say: the road to Montreal [img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

If I were single, I'd definitely choose Montreal.

But as a 'married with children' kinda guy, I'd give the edge to Ottawa. The big city amenities with a small-town community and feel has much appeal. The parks and galleries and museums are unparalleled, and there's as much in the way of concerts and festivals as most bigger cities.

My previous recommendation of Montreal was strictly based on the conference and event industry, which I work with quite regularly.

Well, I'm prejudiced, Montrйal is the only place I'd live in North America. I don't hate Ottawa though, it has its charms and is a good place for outdoor activities - you could also consider living on the Quйbec side of the Ottawa river.

The job market can be tough here, but your experience in France will give you an edge. After Paris, you will find the cost of rents or mortgages in Montrйal absurdly low, although for us it has spiked in recent years.

After Paris, you will even find Montrйal small-townish (and Quйbec, while beautiful, depressingly mono-ethnic - Montrйal is a multicultural French-speaking city, in that way more like Paris. Don't get stuck in an anglophone part of town in the west end, in that case, you'd be better off in Toronto or Ottawa.

(I live near the Jean-Talon market).

Ottawa and Montrйal have almost identical temperatures. Montrйal is almost due east of Ottawa, and we get their weather a bit later on in the day. Both are much colder in winter than Toronto, to say nothing of Paris (where it never gets very cold, but can be grey and dreary in the winter). And can get considerably hotter in summer than Paris.

The mйtro and the more concentrated urban development are an advantage here, as you really, really don't need a car, and if you want to use one sometimes to run "heavy-duty" errands or for a weekend getaway you can join CommunAuto carsharing network.

On the other hand, Ottawa is closer to nature, especially the Gatineau Hills. Out of the city here, we are getting the same rings of crappy sprawl as elsewhere in North America.

Indiana Jones, why doesn't your wife study French? Even if you don't wind up moving here she will meet a lot of interesting people and expand her cultural horizons. After Jerusalem, one thing she would enjoy here is that there are many Sephardic people here as well (also the case in Paris).

I have a cousin who lives in Aylmer - now part of Gatineau. The old centre is very nice.

I'm a diehard urbanite, but different people like different types of places.

careful: March can still be slushy and lousy temperature-wise, while summer in Montreal can be absolutely fan-tas-tic, so check that out, too

re meeting people:
I had a French friend who had travelled extensively in Latin America, north Africa and of course throughout Europe, and he was flatly amazed when he repeatedly struck up conversations with people in Montreal on buses and elsewhere;
no comparison to the outwardly cold and detached French

Montreal has such a cool Metro system, with[url=http://www.metrodemontreal.com/architecture.html] each station designed by a different architect.[/url] For example,[url=http://www.metrodemontreal.com/green/lasalle/index.html] the Lasalle station [/url]won a Canadian Architect Award of Excellence, but many others could have also done so.

While Ottawa has[url=http://www.transithub.net/octranspo.htm] big clunking accordian style buses [/url]running on express busways.

If this is a metaphor for the two communities, perhaps your choice is clear.

On the other hand, [url=http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/editorial/story.html?id=89ef9... Montreal Gazette says near-hysteria is brewing over, once again, the decline of French in Montreal.[/url] Combined with the debates on "reasonable accomodation" of immigrants, are you possibly moving into a linguistic war zone? At least they'll be fighting over something you have real knowledge of. But which side are you on? Are you from Toronto or Paris? You're from both? Will such equivocation annoy both sides?

Lagatta will set me straight. I'm only asking.

no, there is no need to decide anything like that ([i]What side am I on?[/i]):
I am Toronto-born and bred (high school, some college), but then became a fervent adopted Montrealer immediately, overnight, in my 20s;

as for the politics cited above, trust me on this: that is nothing, nothing;
only the newspapers are interested in problems; in real life, Montreal is a very happy, open place

welcome aboard!

[ 28 January 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]

quote:

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The big city amenities with a small-town community and feel has much appeal. The parks and galleries and museums are unparalleled, and there's as much in the way of concerts and festivals as most bigger cities.

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It really is the best of both worlds. I don't think I ever stopped feeling like a tourist in Ottawa, and I mean that as a good thing. There was always a new exhibit to see at the National Gallery, or a new play at the NAC, or a new musical act rolling into town as a part of an Ottawa festival. Plus, being a stones-throw from the Gatineau Hills was always a bonus.

Yes, that is true. I'm not young by any means, but early on I made the firm decision that I did not want children.

The Ottawa area is very family-friendly, but I do know many people who have happily raised children here - children who become very independent and take the mйtro, and are used to having friends from many backgrounds.

But I also have many middle-aged friends who are deliberately childless, and probably have had more luck finding a chosen family than would be the case in a more family-oriented environment.

Actually, I find public transport in Ottawa rather deplorable. If I'm not mistaken, both Toronto and Montrйal were no larger than the Ottawa/Gatineau area is nowadays when they built subway/mйtro systems. Except for the little patch of O-Train, there is nothing but buses (there used to be trams; tragically, the system was destroyed).

I don't think the nightlife is such a consideration for more people. Even people living in Paris or NYC don't go out clubbing every night - their rents are too high, for one thing - and we always wind up going to the same places to have a coffee, a glass or a casual supper.

I should have mentioned above -- I intended to -- that I'm sure Montreal is also a fine place place for raising one's family. I have plenty of friends who did -- it just wasn't my own experience.

In Ottawa, we lived just west of Holland Ave. and didn't have a car. We walked for shopping, restaurants, entertainment etc. My husband took the transitway buses and got downtown in eight to ten minutes.

[ 28 January 2008: Message edited by: Sharon ]

quote:

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Originally posted by lagatta:
[b]there is absolutely no language crisis nowadays.[/b]

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Remarkably,[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080128.wequebec28/B... the Globe and Mail chose this morning's lead editorial to answer Lark08's question:[/url]

quote:

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Today, Montreal is comparatively booming. The downtown core has been revitalized; space is once again a hot commodity. Federalists are living in relative harmony with sovereigntists. And if anglophones haven't returned, they have at least stopped leaving in droves. Yet it seems nationalist politicians and their allies are nostalgic for the angry 1990s. In the absence of another referendum -- a slim prospect with a federalist provincial government in power and support for sovereignty stagnant -- they appear determined to sow divisions another way.

The revival of Quebec's perennial language debates began last year, as part of the province's often unsettling "reasonable accommodation" debate. A couple of recent incidents have allowed it to pick up steam.

First, Le Journal de Montrйal dispatched a reporter to apply for retail jobs during the Christmas rush, posing as a unilingual anglophone. When 15 of 100 stores agreed to hire her, the tabloid splashed it across its front page. The Parti Quйbйcois took it from there. Its language critic, Pierre Curzi, along with Jean Dorion, president of the Montreal chapter of the Sociйtй St-Jean Baptiste, called for new restrictions to deter parents from sending their children to English-language daycare centres. PQ Leader Pauline Marois called for amendments to Bill 101 (the French Language Charter) to toughen the rules for small businesses. When Cultural Minister Christine St-Pierre indicated that the language law would be left as it is, hard-line nationalists managed to work themselves into a tizzy - most colourfully a group called the Young Patriots of Quebec, which protested by placing 101 pork tongues outside Ms. St-Pierre's riding office.

Then, last week, University of Montreal professor and demographic expert Marc Termote accused the provincial government of "blocking" the release of his report for the province's language watchdog agency on the decline of French-speaking residents in Montreal. This was all the incentive that Mario Dumont, demagogic leader of the Action Dйmocratique du Quйbec, needed to hop aboard his favourite hobby horse, the perils of immigration. While the Office quйbйcois de la langue franзaise said that it withheld the report pending last month's release of linguistic census data by Statistics Canada, and that Prof. Termote's research would be included in a broader language overview to be released in March, Mr. Dumont offered a different theory. The study, he suggested, had been withheld until after the government had rejected the ADQ's call for an immigration freeze and had raised its immigration targets.

As if that weren't enough, Bloc Quйbйcois Leader Gilles Duceppe got in on the act with some inflammatory rhetoric of his own. The federal labour code, he said, should be amended so that federally regulated companies in Quebec are subject to the same rules as those in Bill 101. Those federal politicians from Quebec who opposed such reforms, he pronounced, were "Uncle Toms."

It is understandable that, amid suggestions that within 10 years fewer than half of Montrealers will speak French at home, some Quebeckers are unnerved by the city's new face. But that does not give nationalist politicians licence to twist those concerns into a full-throttle backlash. The knee-jerk proposals put forward this month almost uniformly lack sense; it is especially unclear what tougher language laws for workplaces have to do with French being spoken in the home, which is most assuredly not the government's jurisdiction. These ideas are being put forward, it seems, solely so that the government can reject them - offering opposition politicians wedge issues, the social consequences be damned.

It is unfortunate that, as usual, Montreal is the target of this nationalist and (in Mr. Dumont's case) xenophobic fervour. The city's lustre only recently restored, largely by the newcomers Mr. Dumont disparages, the agitators seem determined to return it to the darkness of the last decade.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
[b]I find it too bloody hot in the summer.[/b]

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But in winter Ottawa has more snow than anywhere else in southern Ontario, doesn't it?

Which is great if you ski or just love snow.

I don't know many people in Montrйal who have air conditioning at home - perhaps some rich people have it, but none of the people I know who live in typical triplexes.

It didn't use to get that hot in Paris - that is really an effect of climate change. Paris was always typically cooler than here in the summer - and milder in the winter - naturally air-conditioned by the sea that isn't so very far away (and no mountains in between). I actually experienced 40c heat in AMSTERDAM a couple of years ago, and LONDON and BERLIN were getting it too. That is utterly bonkers. It was a relief to get down to Italy - it was just as hot, but the buildings and surroundings were designed for it, with lots of shady places to sit.

But it would be impossible to afford at the cost of electricity per kwh in France. Which is much lower here, but of course we have to heat a lot more.

Yeah, the 9th is very congested. I was much happier up in Belleville in the 20th, above rue des Pyrennйes. There is always a nice breeze up there.

Don't expect such "open faces" - that is a bit of a myth. Sure, you don't get the deliberate closing off you get in huge cities like Paris here, but you con't get that fake US-style "friendliness" here either - and I wouldn't want it, it annoys me to hell. It usually involves obsequiousness among staff who have few employment rights (see WalMart)...

I live in Ottawa. I really like this city and that it is so manageable. Public transit is not that bad- when you consider that the city is not that big. There are many things going for this city and it is beautiful. However, I have to count one of Ottawa's assets is its proximity to Montrйal which is my favourite city to visit even if I choose to stay here.

The only thing I would give as firm advice would be unless you want ot spend your life in transit, forget Toronto- I like to go there but am happier when I am on my way home. With Montrйal I never feel that way. If you choose either Montrйal or Ottawa you can visit the other easily.
As far as the Quйbec side of the Ottawa river, you should take advice only from people who have seen it recently. A lot of great work has been done in Gatineau in the last few years it has become a much more attractive city- I would choose the Hull sector though.

Alberta and Vancouver won't make quite as much use of your billingualism as say Montreal, atleast in day to day life... But it's an often sought skill by employers there and there are few that can fill those needs.

I'll let someone else talk to Vancouver, but Calgary is still the oil boom town. There is an amazing number of corporate HQ's held within the downtown core and I think theres a pretty high need for people with your skills. That said, Calgary is now competing with Toronto and the like for living costs (housing especially)... Finding a place to live will probably present more of a challenge than finding a job.

If jobs/employment is a key drive... The internet would offer a pretty vast boone. Take a look at some of the job sites (working.com, I think, is a collection of all the job postings put into any Canadian newspaper... Careerclick offered a similar service, but I think they merged).

here's the lowdown.

if you're into good times, decent food, a "city" life, cute girls (or guys), intellectualism in general, random cultural events (say a lecture by christo or a free schoenberg recital), living in a historically significant area, discovering a place with a lot to discover, etc. go to montreal. no question.

if you want a job, a car, and a decent place to live, definitely, go to ottawa.

in effect, if you're a certain kind of person, there's almost nothing to do in ottawa but work, sleep and drink whiskey from the bottle. the town is as staid and banal as one could imagine. there are, however, loads of good-paying jobs, and an abundance of clean, bright, modern homes that fall within the price-range of those working in those good-paying jobs.

montreal is a different story. cheap (but increasingly less cheap) rents, loads of great stuff going on all the time, great (and very attractive) people - all that you could want from a city on the divertissement side (assuming you're not too familiar with new york or los angeles) that's montreal. the one huge issue issue is work. unless you're a creative genius, there's next to nothing good here for you. one can get little short terms jobs to keep it going until the big break, one can get something terrible for a while (at a cafe, for instance), and one can jump on into an office downtown on a temporary basis, but there's so much competition for so few quality jobs here that one's chances (as a non-quebecois) of finding that something interesting really aren't near what they are elsewhere (ottawa, for instance).

and just to note, vancouver and alberta are not options for homo intellectualis: alberta is the anti-cultural mecca; and vancouver is a reduced, reused and recycled santa monica.

[ 01 February 2008: Message edited by: flight from kamakura ]

I too used to commute everywhere in Toronto by walking and taking the bus and subways. Since moving to Montreal I take my car everywhere. The metro and buses are always too crowded here and I prefer the snug cocoon privacy of my car.

Yes a car is bad for the environment but, but, but .... I LOVE MY CAR so much!!!! It's my sweet guilty addiciton. I much prefer driving around scenic Montreal in a car rather than taking the bus and metro because it is much more relaxing.

[ 01 February 2008: Message edited by: mary123 ]

We won't go into the car bit (I hate your car - nothing personal, I hate cars in general). One of the main advantages of living here is that one really does not need one of those things "qui tuent, qui puent et qui polluent". But we have lots of other threads on that topic.

I live within a short walk of Jean-Talon, Beaubien and Castelnau mйtro stations...

I suppose people in more suburban areas, and not just wealthy ones by any means, would be more likely to have air conditioning. The people I know in Longueuil do. Those I know in Outremont (an old, upscale area) don't. I have a huge tree in front of my balcony which provides natural a/c.

Oh, there are very nice predominantly anglophone areas of Montrйal - parts of NDG, for example. The point is that I'd think one would be just as well off moving to Toronto.

The suburbs on the West Island are getting quite mature, with large trees. At the very western point of the island, there is an adorable old village, Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, which boasts the agricultural campus of McGill - John Abbott Cйgep is also there, and an important veterans' hospital. There is a commuter train, but it is relatively difficult to live carfree there.

contra Lagatta, if I returned to Montreal, I would likely live near the Metro, maybe a leafy part of town, and since NDG via the Villa Maria Metro gets you downtown fast and Monkland Ave. has some buzz these days, I would look there as a first option;
for me, nothing at all "like Toronto"

on the other hand, lived several years near Cote des Neiges, and it offers several of those advantages, plus a distinctly Montreal multiethnic atmosphere near a big campus and again the Metro

lots of fine places to choose from in that burg, for sure ...

as for the booming western cities, I am sure they are great, depending on your aims, but this thread really considers 2 options for a Paris-based translator in transition;
if she were in finance/administration, that might be another thing

[ 02 February 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]

re your economics/jobs question:

1/ no one knows;
some economists are paid big big bucks to forecast things and they often screw up;
2/ even if the US were to go into a deep recession (unlikely, I think), Canada does not follow exactly the US pattern any more.

I moved to New York in the early 1990s, just as a recession ending in the US, but it continued and continued in Canada throughout that dismal decade -- you could see the shabbiness in visiting the downtowns of several Canadian cities - until, starting in 1997, improving a lot ;

since then, unemployment in Canada has been cut in half (it was up to 12-13 per cent nationally in the '90s), and Canada has enjoyed a good decade, with joblessness steadily falling and the dollar surging

right now, unemployment is still relatively low, and, although the US is slowing down, Canada has resisted the American trend before;

all that to say: Who knows?
I live in France, too, and believe me, it's easier to get work, esp. part-time, in Canada than in Europe these days ....

do some advance job-hunting on-line, for example, via Workopolis or other job-hunting /CV site in Canada

good luck

[ 02 February 2008: Message edited by: Geneva ]