Babble needs trully anti-racist Moderators II

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Wed, 2008-02-27 06:33

Stargazer

*Sigh* Where to start with this pompous ass? I am just flabbergasted that he has the gall to claim to speak for women. Secondly, I am tired of his constant label of white supremist.

Here's what AH, you pompous jerk, I'm beginning to think you are sent here from the dark side just to piss off as many people as you can in a few days. You're doing really well so far. Tes, I know, it's all because we don't understand your superior self, and as a mere woman, I would never understand a man.

Your drivel is getting tired and old and you are really lucky people here are even paying attention to what you say anymore. Frankly I find you to be a complete ass, and a sexist ass to boot.

But again, what do I know? I'm only a mere woman, and white supremist at that. You, a man, clearly know far more about woman than me, a woman. I'm sure all the African sisters who have been raped will thank you for being able to speak up for them, being as you share the same skin colour and all, I guess that makes you the authority on their lives. I'll be sure to tell my single parent POC friends that you, a man, know more than me, a woman, about how it feels to be a woman, a single parent, and non white. I'm sure you can relate to and have personally experienced the oppression POC women have felt from their own 'brothers'.

Sure, just like white men can speak for white women's abuse.

You sir, are a complete ass.

Wed, 2008-02-27 07:05

#53

Polly B

quote:

Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]I'm hopping that this time, we will be able to have this honest dialoge.
[/b]

Ya, I hope so too, cuz this is getting really boring. However dialogue assumes both speaking and listening, and I am afraid you only have the speaking part down pat.

Wed, 2008-02-27 07:33

#54

johnpauljones

quote:

Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]
I can speak, because my sisters say i can speak. In our tradition we respect the wishes of the clan grandmothers, and of our sisters.
Should you not be respect the choices of my community, or is it only appropriate when you say it is? Can you say white supremacist tendencies?
[/b]

AH my aunt who is originally from what was then known as Rhodesia who is a black jewish women who came to Canada in 1958 after meeting my uncle a white jewish male and I were talking about this very thread.

We talked about your posts. One little question.

Did you ask her permission to speak for her?
Have you walked any miles in the shoes of a black jewish women?

I ask because you have said that your tradition respects the wishes of clan grandmothers and our sisters.

So have you spoken to any sisters who are also jewish to form your opinions on the white supremacy here at babble

ETA: you see racism is rampant and discrimination also is rampant. but that is the world we live. Some of us work daily to try to change it. Others do nothing.

Yet many of us do not just fight one type of racism or sexism we attempt to fight them all. While I can not know what it is like to be a african male or african female. I also learn from my family about what racism is.

Eurocentric beliefs and feelings are not the problem. It is an unwillingness to be open to all points of view.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:01

#55

Unionist

Thank you, JPJ.

Some of us are listening.

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:02

#56

martin dufresne

It is a bit embarrassing to me to see two men using racialized women's authority about their experiences to rant at each other in a very male manner.

AH, do you think you might want to de-personnalize this thread title by renaming it something along the lines of "Effective moderating of an anti-racist forum"? Speaking only for myself, this would help me relate to it.

Could you and others live with such a re-focussing, where we could then address crucial aspects of respect, ground rules, risk of voice appropriation, political representation, personal and collective experiences, moderators' opinions, conflict among various people(s), etc., without feeling we have to side between against or specific people and be subjected to escalating levels of scorn from either side?

In desire for both justice and peace, with accountability to all oppressed people. [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:09

#57

Scout

quote:

It is abit embarrassing to me to see two men using racialized women's authority about their experience to rant at each other in a very male manner.

Oh really? Kindly sit down then.

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:18

#58

B.L. Zeebub LLD

quote:

to rant at each other in a very male manner.

Women learn to argue from men? Arguing is patriarchal?

Just when I was about to take you seriously...

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:23

#59

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]
AH, do you think you might want to de-personnalize this thread title by renaming it something along the lines of "Effective moderating of an anti-racist forum"? [/b]

"Remember this is not the space for you to dictate what tactic is appropriate or not."

ETA: edited to add quotation marks which I forgot the first time round. Sorry for the confusion, martin.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:29

#60

Polly B

[img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:33

#61

martin dufresne

Who is dictating? (And who is trolling, I might add?)

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:39

#62

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[b]Who is dictating? (And who is trolling, I might add?)[/b]

Oh sorry, martin, I didn't mean you. I was merely quoting one of the pearls of wisdom dropped earlier in this thread by AH. He doesn't appreciate white supremacists (i.e., anybody at all) suggesting that his approach may be a tad on the offensive side.

ETA: I give up - who is trolling?

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:45

#63

oldgoat

AfroHealer

Along with Michelle, I have absented myself from this forum for pretty much the reasons stated above, and in the hope interesting things may come out of it. Well it’s been interesting alright, but ultimately we both have some responsibility for the well being of the entire board.

You are posting in a particular dedicated space here, like the FF. Just as there is no space on babble where racism is permitted; all of babble is a pro-Feminist space. That includes here.

Therefore, your comments to stargazer above are contrary to babble policy and totally unacceptable. You do not speak for women. You are free to believe you do but you will not do so here or your account will be suspended or terminated just as it would for anyone else behaving in a similar manner. That is a modetorial warning.

To be honest your transgressions of policy , traditions, and just plain manners are too numerous and egregious to go into here as I have to go into meetings for the afternoon, but Michelle and I will get back, possibly in another forum.

Looking at this more globally, I will agree with Michelle that neither of us is going anywhere. Incidentally, we both do have some experience in racism and anti-oppression models. Those who have known me for a while may have some familiarity. Notwithstanding, AfroHealer raises some interesting points, and reading his message, I would hope people could separate some of the message from the messenger.

I think therein lies the problem. Let me preface this by saying I have examined in my heart my privilege, my whiteness, and gone hmmmmm. AH, I know this is horribly at odds with your own self assessment, but your being a person of colour and Africaness aside, you’re really a pretty lousy teacher. You’re horribly divisive, and can’t see your own lessons for your ego. You’re also the most slippery and passive aggressive debater I’ve seen come along in a long time, or I’m not a middle class white guy.

edited because I forgot to add: Longer time babblers will know that this is a constantly evolving space, though it may seem slow, and we're always looking for ways in which we can be better. The Anti-Racism forum is certainly one of those places which will always be challenging, and I hope we can have a productive discourse on that.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:49

#64

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by oldgoat:
[b]Notwithstanding, AfroHealer raises some interesting points, and reading his message, I would hope people could separate the message from the messenger.[/b]

Although I agree with everything else you said, oldgoat, the above gives me pause.

My problem was with the message, not the messenger.

By the way, if either you or Michelle ever did "go away" because of the kind of abuse we've seen here, I would too.

Wed, 2008-02-27 08:51

#65

oldgoat

unionist, I made a couple of small edits since you posted. I'm being kinda general here, but I think I understand and agree with your point.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 09:58

#66

1234567

quote:

By the way, if either you or Michelle ever did "go away" because of the kind of abuse we've seen here, I would too.

I agree with union on this although, I think it would take a lot more than just this to scare you off, if scaring you off is even possible, well maybe old goat but Michelle, she's tough! [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-02-27 10:47

#67

oldgoat

quote:

well maybe old goat but Michelle, she's tough!

um,

ummmm....

Oh what the hell, yeah I guess.

Wed, 2008-02-27 10:55

#68

Le T

So the two paid, white moderators decide that they can't moderate the anti-racist forum and stop doing so. Hopefully their racialized volunteer moderator will come back soon. But that's not racist or white-supremacist it's just a matter of chance.

When Afrohealer posts about black (recently immigrated) men being sexually assaulted by white (not-so-recently immigrated) women in a thread that was not in the FF he is told by a moderator that he must take his race concerns into the un-moderated anti-racist forum. He is not allowed to post about that issue in the body and soul forum. But that's not racist or white supremacist, that's feminism.

When Afrohealer starts threads about this because he is angry he is attacked, accused many times of being mentally ill, passive aggressive and hostile. But that's not racism or white supremacist it's debate.

When Afrohealer becomes increasingly ganged up on he starts to fight back and is told again that he is mentally ill, passive aggressive and hostile. But that's not racist either right?

This circle beating - complete with breaks where people discuss the finer points of Malcolm X and Garvy - takes place in the un-moderated anti-racism forum, which becomes moderated for just a second so that AH can be given a spanking for speaking for women. But that's not racist or white supremacist.

There is some serious cognitive dissonance occurring on this board.

I don't care if AH is the biggest jack ass around (which I don't think he is) this thread is filled with racism and defensiveness in the face of a black man calling us on it. People have even threatened their resignation in defense of the status quo.

Why don't we all take a step back and just read through what everyone has written and maybe take Martin's advice on addressing some key issues in how babble is moderated.

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:02

#69

oldgoat

Telespectatuer, I can only say that your interpretation of events is inventive in the extreem.

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:18

#70

Scout

quote:

Why don't we all take a step back and just read through what everyone has written

How about you give that a try.

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:28

#71

Stargazer

quote:

When Afrohealer starts threads about this because he is angry he is attacked, accused many times of being mentally ill, passive aggressive and hostile. But that's not racism or white supremacist it's debate.

Actually, no it is not racism. And if you had bothered to read the threads you would see that the only person tossing around the mentally ill label is AH himself. And he is being extremely passive-aggressive. Not all of us here are white. Not all of us here like to be called supremists for the simple fact of disagreeing with AH. As you may or may not have noticed, he is a bit sexist. In his attempt to foster peace, he has denigrated mixed race people, said he speaks for all black women, and dismissed the concerns of the Jewish members on this board.

I'm sorry, but this is not acceptable behaviour. Most of us here are pretty nice people, and some of us, like unionist and others, speak very articulately about what they object to in AH's posts. But what did that two way dialogue result in? Absolutely nothing except more accusations of white supremacy, and outright attacks on the moderators.

We're not all sitting here attacking the words for no reason, or because we are racist. In fact, I would love to have a strong African voice on these forums. But it would be nice if that same voice did not tell us that we (the mixed race people, the women and the Jewish people) were not dark enough to ever understand oppression. Then claim that skin tone has nothing to do with it, when in fact, it very clearly does for AH. besides, I think we have all been called white supremists and racist enough n'est pas?

Don't make me don my white sheet now!

[img]tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:46

#72

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
[b]Why don't we all take a step back and just read through what everyone has written and maybe take Martin's advice on addressing some key issues in how babble is moderated.[/b]

You know, I read your posts with interest and care and I respect your viewpoints and generally agree. Not this time.

Several threads here have no damned purpose whatsoever than to spread poison in an arrogant, supercilious, self-important, divisive, destructive fashion. By a person who says over and over that he stands behind his own words "100%".

You know, he doesn't even share stories of oppression. He just gives that impression. All he does is provide links and berate everyone for not reading them, because if they did, they'd realize they were wrong and he was right.

The only, one, single, solitary story of oppression he shared is about getting groped at parties by white women.

You know, if it wasn't for the know-it-all dismiss-everyone-else's-issues-and-problems bullshit of this person, I might actually have listened to his groping story, because I do believe there may be a grain of something or other there.

Unfortunately, by belittling and offending and spewing racism and sexism, he makes it hard, impossible, to find that grain.

I don't know who called him "mentally ill", and if that happened, it is repulsive and should be condemned. I personally just think he's immature and a bullshitter and he should start dialoguing instead of just lecturing.

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:52

#73

Michelle

quote:

Originally posted by Le Tйlйspectateur:
So the two paid, white moderators decide that they can't moderate the anti-racist forum and stop doing so.

Yes. And I see that you conveniently left out the reason WHY it has become impossible to moderate. Because people have come to expect that certain standards of behaviour be enforced around here, and yet one person here thinks he's completely above the rules of not attacking people. And who would that be? Ask Stargazer. Ask sanizadeh. Or maybe one of the 20 other people AfroHealer has accused of being racists, white supremacists and supporters of genocide.

And when we ask him to try and dial back the invective, we're the white supremacist moderators who should be out of a job. Give me a great big fucking break, Le Telespectateur.

quote:

Hopefully their racialized volunteer moderator will come back soon. But that's not racist or white-supremacist it's just a matter of chance.

No, it's a matter of bigcitygal needing a break for a while, as we all do.

quote:

When Afrohealer posts about black (recently immigrated) men being sexually assaulted by white (not-so-recently immigrated) women in a thread that was not in the FF he is told by a moderator that he must take his race concerns into the un-moderated anti-racist forum.

Yeah. Because he entered a thread that was contentious to begin with and tried to draw equivalence between men being assaulted by women, and women being assaulted by men. He was pissing almost all of the women off in that thread because of his anti-feminist ranting on the subject.

At that point, we were walking a fine line, trying to distinguish differences between violence against men and violence against women on a SYSTEMIC level, and along he comes to talk about how he just can't go anywhere without getting groped by hordes of maurading females. And if that weren't enough, when he was called on it by most of the women there (and guess what? ALL of babble is a feminist space, not just the feminism forum), he starts going on about how none of them have the legitimacy to speak because they're not women of colour, and as a man of colour, we all have to shut up and let him have the floor. Including the women of colour who spoke up and said THEY were offended.

And yes, since he was emphasizing the RACE issue involved in white women feeling they can grope black men (and I agree, there IS an issue with that, there's a whole industry of rich white women doing sex tourism to tropical countries to get stud serviced by mostly black men, and I'm sure that sort of assumption happens here too), I told him to take it to the anti-racism forum to discuss it there since his sexist manner of talking about it in the other thread was pissing women off.

quote:

He is not allowed to post about that issue in the body and soul forum. But that's not racist or white supremacist, that's feminism.

That thread was already teetering, but people were being careful up to that point to try to point out that violence against men is not equivalent to violence against women because of the systemic patriarchal support for violence against women. And along he comes and topples it all over, and there I am with a mess to clean up, and as soon as I try, it spawns a whole avalance of attack threads and posts about me being a white supremacist and racist.

quote:

When Afrohealer starts threads about this because he is angry he is attacked, accused many times of being mentally ill, passive aggressive and hostile. But that's not racism or white supremacist it's debate.

Once again, give me a break. AfroHealer's posts for days, maybe weeks, have been filled with nothing but attacks on almost everyone here. He's angry that he's attacked? Well cry me a fucking river, we're all pretty sick of being attacked by him too.

quote:

When Afrohealer becomes increasingly ganged up on he starts to fight back and is told again that he is mentally ill, passive aggressive and hostile. But that's not racist either right?

I didn't see anyone call him mentally ill. But why don't you take a look at who is "ganging up on him" here? Is it just a big pile on of bystanders? Or is every single frigging person in these past two threads someone that he's accused of supporting mass genocide, or of being a white supremacist or a racist? Ask yourself that.

quote:

This circle beating - complete with breaks where people discuss the finer points of Malcolm X and Garvy - takes place in the un-moderated anti-racism forum, which becomes moderated for just a second so that AH can be given a spanking for speaking for women. But that's not racist or white supremacist.
There is some serious cognitive dissonance occurring on this board.

You're bloody fucking right there is. This is a classic case of constant sexist and verbal abuse that you can't see when it's staring you straight in the face. AfroHealer is always right, everyone else is always wrong. The only way to placate him is to always declare he is right, always swallow all of his abuse and insults without fighting back. If you fight back (or god forbid you try to moderate a thread he's in and ask him to dial it back a bit), it's proof that he's right and you're a racist white supremacist. If you give in, it's proof that he was right all along and you're a racist white supremacist. Either way, it doesn't stop the abuse.

He alternates between being insulting and conciliatory, often in the same posts. He says the nastiest things to people and then ends the post with some smarmy saying about love and peace. Another classic pattern of abuse - yell, insult, and then comfort right afterwards, which keeps people off-balance and unable to recognize it for the abuse it is.

The demands that everyone - even other people of colour - recognize that he is the supreme authority on any topic he discusses, whether anti-racism or not, and if they don't, he starts in with the insults, the insinuations, the accusations.

To one of our FN women posters, he asks, "Why is it so difficult for you to understand that everything you believe to be true might be false?" And followed immediately by, "I was under the impression that we were here to learn from each other." This, told to an indigenous woman on this forum who dares to dissent with the Great Healer And Teacher. When has AfroHealer ever, even once, demonstrated that HE is willing to learn from some who has ever challenged any of HIS assumptions? No, concessions must be made by everyone else, always, even women on gender issues, because he is the expert on feminism due to him being appointed by the gods, his elders and his "African sisters" to speak for all racialized women.

quote:

Why don't we all take a step back and just read through what everyone has written and maybe take Martin's advice on addressing some key issues in how babble is moderated.[/qb]

That's what I did. I took a step back and read instead of moderated. Read attack after attack on me, to a lesser extent on oldgoat, and on just about every person who has interacted with him. You wonder why I stopped moderating this forum and directed him here if he wanted to talk with impunity and without regard to the general rules of engagement on this board? It's because, instead of banning his sorry ass like at least 15 babblers told me I should, I thought it would be best to stifle that impulse and let him have a space where he can spout off and attack anyone he likes without any moderator intervening.

And now he's done so, and here's the result - surprise of surprises, people attack him back! Imagine that.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:58

#74

martin dufresne

IMHO, the anti-racism forum is the last place to assume an "even playing field". I also feel that it is rather pathetic to insult people who point out how much it still isn't, however disrespectfully to our worldview of White even-handedness.
A challenge that interests me is, rather than frenziedly or coolly "blowing out of the water" someone who does that, to find ways to play nevertheless on that field (it's not as if we had any other), above and beyond structural oppression dynamics we all agree on (I think).
My saying this in no way is meant to invalidate some totally appropriate critiques of AH's posts, posted above. It is attempting to center everyone on his/her responsibility.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 11:58

#75

Scout

quote:

When Afrohealer posts about black (recently immigrated) men being sexually assaulted by white (not-so-recently immigrated) women in a thread that was not in the FF he is told by a moderator that he must take his race concerns into the un-moderated anti-racist forum. He is not allowed to post about that issue in the body and soul forum. But that's not racist or white supremacist, that's feminism.

All of babble is Feminist safe space for the record. That being said I will exlain the situtation to you again, cause it's fucking obvious you didn't pay attention the last 2 times.

The only way a woman can possibly have power over a man is through race. That's why it was an issue for the Anti-racism forum. Gender isn't really involved. She isn't gender priveleged but skin privileged. Unless of course you want to deny that men don't hold the balance of power in society.

Let me make it super easy for you - a white woman accuses a black man of something and she will be believed more often than not, regardless of the truth. Same white woman accuses a white man of the same thing and she's the black man.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:10

#76

saga

quote:

Originally posted by Scout:
[b]
How about you give that a try.[/b]

I have read through everything, and I agree with Le Telespectateur. What I saw was not moderating but personal, emotional responses. AH's posts were sometimes irritating, arrogant .. I agree with old goat's assessment of AH's lousy 'teaching' style.

However, the malice in the responses to him was beyond acceptable, perhaps defensive posturing by those who think they are good anti-racists. Taking only the thread "Men who are abused by women", I saw nothing in it to give me concern about AH at all, in that thread, but Michelle's overreaction and closing the thread was out of line, imo.

That thread should be reopened. I believe it was closed because of things that may have happened in other threads, and perhaps because of feminist discomfort with the topic. Neither is a legitimate reason to close it, imo, and I find the feminist hegemony disturbing, unexpected, and disappointing. My view of babble has changed.

[i]Yeah. Because he entered a thread that was contentious to begin with and tried to draw equivalence between men being assaulted by women, and women being assaulted by men. He was pissing almost all of the women off in that thread because of his anti-feminist ranting on the subject.[/i]

I call bullshit, Michelle. It was a thread about men abused by women, and there the women were ... abusing him. If you don't like the topic, stay out of the thread!! You only went there to harass him. It is the responses of the women that were out of line, not AH's posts there.

There was no "anti-feminist rant". You are making that up. He spoke of women who had abused men. I doubt those women were "feminists". They were just female abusers of men.

Your problem is that you do not believe that men can be abused by women. YOU ARE WRONG!!

The thread you closed should be reopened.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:14

#77

kropotkin1951

quote:

Originally posted by saga:
[b]
Neither is a legitimate reason to close it, imo, and I find the feminist hegemony disturbing, unexpected, and disappointing. My view of babble has changed.
[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ][/b]

A progressive board with feminism ruling. (that is what hegemony means) Why is that either unexpected or disappointing?

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:14

#78

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by saga:
[b] I find the feminist hegemony disturbing, unexpected, and disappointing. [/b]

I find it refreshing, long overdue, and inspiring.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:19

#79

Stargazer

quote:

I find the feminist hegemony disturbing.

I'm sure you do, especially seeing you are most likely only here supporting AH because you yourself have and do agree with his position. The problem is Saga, the majority of women don't.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:27

#80

oldgoat

quote:

"Men who are abused by women", I saw nothing in it to give me concern about AH at all, in that thread, but Michelle's overreaction and closing the thread was out of line, imo.

I've reread that thread a couple of times now, and cannot understand the misunderstandings of why it was closed, except saga, that you strongly disagree and won't let go.

The thread was opened on a subject which was difficult, sensitive, and historically has not been well discussed here. I thought it would be a good idea to lay that on the table in my own first post, and after that was pleasantly surprised at how well things were going. AH's relating of his personal experience was quite appropriate. (no one btw made fun of him that I saw, anywhere, about what he said about his personal experience) Problems arose when he started framing the issue according to his particular anti-racist model, and otherwise took over the thread with his own agenda.

It was perfectly acceptable for a moderator to intervene, and if you don't like the expressions of frustration Michelle allowed herself you're entitled, but I thought she showed considerable restraint.

Edited to add while I think of it, that's just one example of things being made up that didn't happen. People are being accused by others of saying things they didn't, and then attacked for that.

That has been from the beginning, contrary to babble policy, and people have been banned for that. That is a general reminder.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: oldgoat ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:32

#81

saga

quote:

Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
[b] A progressive board with feminism ruling. (that is what hegemony means) Why is that either unexpected or disappointing?[/b]

Because they are using it to shut down discussions they do not 'approve' of, discussions that have nothing to do with them except that they choose to go there to harass any men who are brave enough to post their stories. I find it quite shocking that intelligent, progressive women would disrespect and dismiss the experiences of others, and consider themselves righteous in doing so. I am disappointed because I thought this board was more progressive, but it seems mired in the 70's-80's mentality of men can do no right and women can do no wrong. I don't find that progressive. I find it oppressive to both genders.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:34

#82

AfroHealer

Hmm .. SO let me remind you gusy of facts.

Majority of the world's population is not white.

SO it is fact, that white women do not represent the majority of the worlds women. Those are plain, hard cold facts.

So maybe you guys might want to wake up to the virtual hegemonyof white feminist discourse.

But you can just go ahead and ignore those facts, because it really does not matter to the supporters of white supremacy & eurocentricity.

The rulers on this board, have proven that the status quo prevails "The field Negro is always wrong, in the eyes of the master."

The house Negro know he has lost his damm mind, when the Master tells him he is a good Negro.

As an anti-racism educator, its my sacred duty to challenge the status quo.

If you don't want to be challened, then please don't read my writtings.

Let the healing begin, but first we must cut the yoke of white supremacy & colonial mentality.

It will be uncomfortable at first, but soon you will get used to trully judging people by the content of thier character.

Maybe some day you will also be able to stand 100% behind your words.

Its funny how, when I stand behind my words (not your convinient, misinterpretation and twisting of my words, but my honest words), I'm called a coward.

When you have been able to continue a dialog like this, you know you are not dealing with a coward.

My elders have taught me well, I don't know what your elders have taught you, so please stop asking me. I would think since they are your elders you would know. Stop asking me to speak for you.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:36

#83

oldgoat

quote:

Your problem is that you do not believe that men can be abused by women. YOU ARE WRONG!!

Good example of something nobody said. Thanks.

quote:

I find the feminist hegemony disturbing.

I'm afraid the best I can do now is HUH?

Fortuitously, others are doing better.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:41

#84

saga

quote:

Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]
I'm sure you do, especially seeing you are most likely only here supporting AH because you yourself have and do agree with his position. The problem is Saga, the majority of women don't.[/b]

No, the problem is I was referring only to that thread. The rest of it I stayed as far away from as I could because it was clearly a mudslinging match.

Do not generalize and make things up about me please. You know NOTHING of me, that is VERY obvious.

The majority of the women on this board whom you claim to speak for, then, can stay the fuck out of that thread. It is truly disgusting that people went there to continue harassing AH. The responses can stand as a blatant example of why men do not speak out about abuse.

For example, your first response to AH's disclosures was a classic put down designed to shut him up about abuse of men by women:
[i]Have you ever spoken about the abuse of women by men AH? I doubt it.[/i]

Then Michelle got into the act and was snide and catty, told him he can't talk about abused men in that thread but had to take it to the Anti-racist forum (because he is black, apparently he is confined to the AR forum) and closed with "If you don't like it, too bad. I am the moderator so suck it up."

Bad behaviour by the women, but nothing offensive about AH's posts at all, though he did get snippy in return. However, my point is: FOR WOMEN WHO SUPPOSEDLY UNDERSTAND ABUSE, YOU SURE BROKE ALL THE RULES ABOUT HOW TO DEAL WITH DISCLOSURE !!!

Just imagine ... in a thread about men abusing women (such as the one started this morning) if a man stepped in and said: "Have you ever spoken about the abuse of men by women? I doubt it."

The troll would be banned from babble forever.
And yet, long time respected women on this board think it is somehow ok for them to do that to men?
No ... it is NOT ok.
It is why men die rather than speak out, because it is what happens when they try to speak out.

I am just shocked that it happened here.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:42

#85

Unionist

quote:

Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Its funny how, when I stand behind my words (not your convinient, misinterpretation and twisting of my words, but my honest words), I'm called a coward.
[/b]

No one called you a coward - I just checked. You misinterpret and twist others' words.

I called you immature and a bullshitter. My hope was that you would start dialoguing instead of "educating". You're not qualified to teach.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:45

#86

oldgoat

Just quoting this in an unedited form for posterity.

quote:

Originally posted by AfroHealer:
[b]Hmm .. SO let me remind you gusy of facts.
Majority of the world's population is not white.
SO it is fact, that white women do not represent the majority of the worlds women. Those are plain, hard cold facts.
So maybe you guys might want to wake up to the virtual hegemonyof white feminist discourse.
But you can just go ahead and ignore those facts, because it really does not matter to the supporters of white supremacy & eurocentricity.
The rulers on this board, have proven that the status quo prevails "The field Negro is always wrong, in the eyes of the master."
The house Negro know he has lost his damm mind, when the Master tells him he is a good Negro.
As an anti-racism educator, its my sacred duty to challenge the status quo.
If you don't want to be challened, then please don't read my writtings.
Let the healing begin, but first we must cut the yoke of white supremacy & colonial mentality.
It will be uncomfortable at first, but soon you will get used to trully judging people by the content of thier character.
Maybe some day you will also be able to stand 100% behind your words.
Its funny how, when I stand behind my words (not your convinient, misinterpretation and twisting of my words, but my honest words), I'm called a coward.
When you have been able to continue a dialog like this, you know you are not dealing with a coward.
My elders have taught me well, I don't know what your elders have taught you, so please stop asking me. I would think since they are your elders you would know. Stop asking me to speak for you.[/b]

quote:

The rulers on this board, have proven that the status quo prevails "The field Negro is always wrong, in the eyes of the master."
The house Negro know he has lost his damm mind, when the Master tells him he is a good Negro.

I am assuming that as moderators of the forum, you are attributing this directly to Michelle and I.

I have to attend to other matters for the moment, which will give you the opportunity to withdraw the remark unreservedly with apologies or back it up with real actual facts and quotes (that means not you're "interpretations") that this is the case.

As well, please link to where anyone directly called you "a coward". Depending on cicumstances and provocation, such may very well be contrary to policy, and even now may merit intervention. We try to moderate evenly.

Wed, 2008-02-27 12:48

#87

kropotkin1951

I have posted on this board for a number of years. When I first came on the board I too was guilty of "running through minefields with snowshoes on." (thanks Oldgoat) I thought that since in my non cyberworld life I was surrounded by and loved and respected by strong women who mostly self identify as feminists that my views had been vetted sufficiently.

Ask Remind about some of the go arounds we had at first. However I took those as opportunities to analysis not only my views (which often didn't change) but also the way in which I presented them.

This site is a place where women are comfortable speaking forthrightly and it is one of the reasons I like it so much. Sometimes more is read into posts than is really there however in my experience even old men like me can dialogue with the women on this board so I would respectfully disagree that it is a problem.

In AH's case I think he just needs to understand that on a board like this not everyone is going to agree with everything he says and that when people disagree he should look at their arguments and step back and ponder his own posts and how they are being received. As others have said above he only came under "attack" after usurping others voices.

Wed, 2008-02-27 13:05

#88

saga

quote:

Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
[b]
Yup, and only AfroHealer has the antidote!
[i]Get your AFROHEAL here! This new, improved liberation miracle is guaranteed to strip away nasty white stains from the brain and skin, and protect against unwanted sexism, classism and all manner of cultural privilege. Just spread a little AFROHEAL on unwanted Whiteness and you too can be completely bias free in minutes! [/i][/b]

catty, snide, repulsive.

Wed, 2008-02-27 13:18

#89

1234567

good post Kropotkin 1951, I too was a tad annoying when I first got here [img]biggrin.gif" border="0[/img]

I find the moderating here fair, even when I have disagreed with them and later (after I've soothed my bruised ego) I have reread their posts and reasons and have agreed with them and their decisions. It's a tough job and most of the time a thankless job. I know of nowhere else where I can read and learn about such diverse topics debated by solid and intelligent posters. Well, most of the posters...... [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-02-27 13:18

#90

Stargazer

Has this madness not gone on long enough? Saga, you're just a shit disturber. You're bringing your personal stuff to this thread. You're one to talk about fairness. Remember you BDP people are killers comment?

And AH, I have no idea wtf to say to you. You are so far gone in your (non)arguments you seem to have lost touch with everyone and your constant bullshit with house negros and field negros belongs in some racist Victorian novel. We get it already AH. YOU know feminism better than women because you say you do. You define what is racist because you are a MAN!! A man who gets to call the shots on apparently everything. I can only hope you go play in greener pastures. I for one am sick of your tricks, your refusal to say shit except this passive aggressive bullshit - racist, field negros, wtf!!!?? Please sir, have some fucking common sense here. You are not listening.

What a hell hole these threads are becoming - caustic and filled with sanctimonious bullshit.

Fuck it, why don't we just let AH run the threads. He can call us all racists and kick the women metaphorically in the teeth at the same time.

Wed, 2008-02-27 13:48

#91

saga

quote:

Originally posted by Stargazer:
[b]Has this madness not gone on long enough? Saga, you're just a shit disturber. You're bringing your personal stuff to this thread. You're one to talk about fairness. Remember you BDP people are killers comment?
[/b]

Oh ... excuse me for thinking I was entitled to an opinion different from yours, your highness.
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Speaking about bringing your personal stuff to a thread ... get over the bpd stuff, eh? I apologized for that long ago, but you continue to distort and exaggerate it, LIE about what I said. I assume this addresses your own needs in some way, but it is wrong to do that at my expense, making up things.

Perhaps you could point me to the thread so I can review it.
However, I am waiting for an explanation of why it is ok for a woman (you) to dismiss male concerns about abuse? I don't get that.

Frankly, some women took offence to AH and attacked him repeatedly, followed him around from thread to thread to harass him.

It was bad behaviour, and dissing his right to speak about abuse of men was WAAAAAAAAAAAYYY over the line.

And your personal attacks are becoming a concern I will have to report if it continues.

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: saga ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 13:57

#92

clersal

AfroHealer I do not understand your spelling. At times you can't spell worth a shit and other times not a letter out of place.
Quite a feat or do you have a ghost writer that forgets to make mistakes?

I think that maybe you are a, dare I say it? I must, I must, A TROLL.

Wed, 2008-02-27 13:58

#93

1234567

quote:

followed him around from thread to thread to harass him.

AH continually refers to statements he and others have made in other threads. This may be why it seems as though people are following him.

Stargazer: I absolutely love how you don't mince words.

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:00

#94

Le T

quote:

What a hell hole these threads are becoming - caustic and filled with sanctimonious bullshit.

Yes, it's true. I can't help but think that if we were all sitting around talking in person we would have never reached this point. One of the downsides of Internet anonymity is the bravery with which we will attack each other. Like Kropotkin and 1234567 have confessed I also act like a dork when posting.

I also think that we never do anything about racism and colonialism that is embedded into this website and the people who are part of this community. We talk a lot about it but little action is taken. Nothing personal OG and Michelle but the fact that you guys get paid and rabble just gets "volunteer" people to fill in the diversity gaps is structural racism. Kinda like the columnist issue that I started a thread on.

How can we move beyond the gridlock that we have found ourselves in (and almost always hit when dealing with race and colonialism) and progress to a point of meaningful discussion?

Is it possible to heal the wounds of these last few threads?

Can we find a way to respectfully disagree with each other on what seems to be fundamental issues?

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:01

#95

1234567

quote:

And your personal attacks are becoming a concern I will have to report if it continues.

[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:02

#96

Le T

quote:

AfroHealer I do not understand your spelling. At times you can't spell worth a shit and other times not a letter out of place.
Quite a feat or do you have a ghost writer that forgets to make mistakes?
I think that maybe you are a, dare I say it? I must, I must, A TROLL.

Thanks for throwing gas on the fire. You really must care about the issues.

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:05

#97

saga

quote:

Originally posted by 1234567:
[b]
AH continually refers to statements he and others have made in other threads. This may be why it seems as though people are following him.
[/b]

Maybe you should actually read the thread in question before passing judgment.

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:06

#98

saga

quote:

Originally posted by 1234567:
[b]
[img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]

Was I talking to you? NO? Then fuck off.

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:08

#99

B.L. Zeebub LLD

quote:

Originally posted by saga:
[b]
catty, snide, repulsive.[/b]

Boo fucking hoo...

We weren't planning dinner, were we?

[ 27 February 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:09

#100

1234567

quote:

Maybe you should actually read the thread in question before passing judgment.

Actually I have and have come to the conclusion that many of the posters involved are also debating on other threads with each other. Hardly a judgement, merely an opinion. [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Wed, 2008-02-27 14:11

#101

1234567

quote:

Was I talking to you? NO? Then fuck off.

Oh Saga, you are the funniest person on here! I just keel over and laugh my ass off at every post you write. You should write comedy! Really you should! [img]smile.gif" border="0[/img]

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